HomeMy WebLinkAbout_2004 02 04 City Commission Workshop Minutes
CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS
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WORKSHOP
FEBRUARY 4,2004
CALL TO ORDER
The Workshop of Wednesday, February 4, 2004 of the City Commission was called to
order by Deputy Mayor Edward Martinez, Jr. at 11: 19 a.m. in the Commission Chambers
of the Municipal Building (City Hall, 1126 East State Road 434, Winter Springs, Florida
32708).
Mayor John F. Bush, absent
Deputy Mayor Edward Martinez, Jr., present
Commissioner Robert S. Miller, absent
Commissioner Michael S. Blake, present
Commissioner Sally McGinnis, present
Commissioner David W. McLeod, present
City Manager Ronald W. McLemore, present
City Attorney Anthony A. Garganese, arrived at 12:22 p.m.
Following a moment of silence, the Pledge of Allegiance was led by Deputy Mayor
Martinez.
.:. .:. AGENDA NOTE: THE FOLLOWING AGENDA ITEMS ARE
DOCUMENTED IN THE ORDER THEY WERE DISCUSSED. .:. .:.
REGULAR AGENDA
REGULAR
501. Office Of The City Manager
Upon Completion Of The Walking Tour Of The Winter Springs Town Center, A
Workshop Will Be Held (In The Commission Chambers At City Hall) Between The
City Commission And The Developer James Doran Company And Their
Representatives.
Deputy Mayor Martinez introduced the Agenda Item.
City Manager Ronald W. McLemore introduced Mr. Shane Doran with the James Doran
Company. Mf. [Shane] Doran introduced Mr. Bob Doran, President, James Doran
Company; Mf. Leigh Colyer, Construction Manager, James Doran Company; Mf. Seth
Parker, Landscape Architect; and Mf. Russ Suddeth, J. Raymond Construction.
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Mr. Kip Lockcuff, P.E., Public WorkslUtility Department Director addressed various
projects underway for the Town Center and the retention pond behind City Hall.
Commissioner David W. McLeod asked Manager McLemore, "Could we work on the
fact of changing this from 'City Hall Retention Pond' to naming this?" Manager
McLemore responded, "We will, yes."
Discussion.
Mr. Lockcuff provided a projected budget figure and time frame for construction of the
projects presented.
Commissioner McLeod said to Manager McLemore, "Ron [McLemore], I think we need
to be looking into our budgets and other avenues because I don't think you are going to
do what we are talking about here for eight hundred thousand dollars ($800,000.00)."
Manager McLemore stated, "Right." Commissioner McLeod continued, "So, I just want
to make sure that the rest of the Commissioners are aware of that."
Mf. Lockcuff continued his presentation and spoke about Magnolia Park and the Trail
area.
Commissioner McLeod then inquired, "Do we still have the eagle issue there - the
problem that we have to reroute that?" Mr. Lockcuffresponded, "That is correct; and it's
apparently an active nest this yeaf."
Discussion.
Manager McLemore presented comments on the build-out of the City's Town Center and
spoke of a suggested Library and said, "We've talked about it. It's part of the County's
Master Plan; we need to make it happen. The on-going traffic is impressive in a Library,
particularly one of this size and would help fill that day-time traffic void that we are
having. Deputy Mayor Martinez inquired, "Ron [McLemore], is it safe to assume that
wherever we find 'Museum' [in the handout], you meant to say 'Library'?" Manager
McLemore answered, '''Library', yes, correct."
"The other objective I think that we need to set for ourselves," continued Manager
McLemore, "Would be very beneficial to us, is if we could locate a satellite University,
College, or Junior College facility in the Town Center - that's a whole path of its own.
We just really need to say that we are going to do it." Manager McLemore added, "The
combination of the Library, City Hall, and a satellite educational facility would give us a
really good start on generating that day-time traffic."
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Brief discussion ensued on the Developer's efforts regarding a possible Theatre or
entertainment complex for the Town Center project.
Commissioner Michael S. Blake said, "Ron [McLemore], this isn't the time to have a
Library discussion, but I just think that before we go down the Library road heavily, we
ought to look at some studies going out twenty (20) years about the long-term viability of
Libraries, given the technological revolution that we have; and what the real life of a
Library may be. Now, I say that, not to say it is not an appropriate direction for us today,
but whatever we do along those terms, we need to make sure that it can be - later onto be
something that will not end up being a dead asset for us." "Actually," responded
Manager McLemore, "Most of the studies coming out now are saying that the traffic is
increasing in Libraries because of the Libraries' emphasis on workstations and research,
and it seems that it is going to be moving in that direction."
Manager McLemore continued his presentation and stated, "We need to go back to
parallel parking in order to extend our sidewalks from twelve (12) to a minimum of
sixteen feet (16'). You take the sidewalks now, you put the trees in the sidewalk, and you
have very little area left for outdoor dining, these other activities, pedestrian passage - the
sidewalk is the heart of activity within the Town Center."
Manager McLemore then stated, "Weare going to need a Parking Garage to service the
north side of Main Street, not withstanding whatever happens to a Library." Manager
McLemore added, "An abundance of free public parking is an essential key to the success
of the Town Center." Manager McLemore emphasized, "We need a Parking Garage.
We need to get rid of this angular parking; not because angular parking is bad, angular
parking is good. It is just that we do not have enough room to create the sidewalk
activity that we need to create, within the amount of space that we have."
Commissioner McLeod commented on moving from angular to parallel parking and
explained, "My only problem is - if where we are right now, we have not planted the
trees, yet, correct? It seems to me that if this is that critical of a deal, it would seem to me
we would address it now - as to removing part of the street with, apparently what you are
saying, to go to parallel parking, and to widen the sidewalks, which apparently is going to
be at the City's expense - correct? And to then plant the trees where they should be
rather than to have the trees planted." Commissioner McLeod added, "So, what we
probably ought to be looking at is how do we now approach this Commissioners, and it
probably should be an Agenda Item, if in fact this is something that - again, the
Developer needs to be brought into - how does it affect the Developer, how does it affect
their leases, how does it affect all of that? I think that that's an Agenda Item that needs to
be addressed overall."
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Furthermore, Commissioner McLeod said, "Is now the time? If we are going to spend
money - it is cheaper today to correct it before it gets out there for a long time, and now
the buildings are up, the people are there, and now we come down through Main Street
and tear the thing up for six (6) months - I think that the Developer is going to be hurt big
time. "
Manager McLemore stated, "We have an Agreement with the Developer relative to
angular parking. I suspect that giving up that is going to require an Agreement to go
forward with a Parking Garage." Commissioner McLeod emphasized, "I think that is an
Agenda Item that we should address at a Commission Meeting, and fairly quickly, if the
rest of the Commission is to agree to that."
Deputy Mayor Martinez asked Manager McLemore, "Ron, this Municipal Parking
Garage, is it going to be for payor free?" Manager McLemore responded, "Free,
absolutely free."
Mr. [Shane) Doran, James Doran Company, 216 Seven Farms Drive, Suite 200,
Charleston, South Carolina: commented, "I just want to say that I'm on board with
Ron's [McLemore] concept here. We do have some things to work through. I would
agree with Commissioner McLeod, this probably warrants being an Agenda Item in
itself." Mf. [Shane] Doran added, "The timetable has to be looked at, I guess, and
weighed against the cost of the trees." Furthermore, Mf. [Shane] Doran said, "I am open
to, in conjunction with agreeable structured parking, going to parallel; it's just the timing
that concerns me."
Manager McLemore stated, "Parking - it goes back to the issue again of needing an
abundance of free parking in order to make the whole thing go." Manager McLemore
added, "To attract large numbers of - people here for events, we need some structured
parking in order to have a place to put them."
Discussion.
Deputy Mayor Martinez called a recess at 12:03 p.m.
The Workshop reconvened at 12: 13 p.m.
Manager McLemore stated, "Again, we hear over and over and over the emphasis on
having a street orientation and having an active sidewalk on Cliff Rose Street between the
Subway, the building that Subway is in, and Washington Mutual [Bank]. We did not
have in the original design a provision for street parking."
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Tape I/Side B
With discussion, Manager McLemore stated, "It is feasible. And it would create parking
spaces and kind of bring back the concept of a working street. That would require
moving the landscape on the right side between the curb and the sidewalk, but it is
doable, we think. That is something we would like to explore in order to help - again
create the active street pedestrian area and to help mitigate this whole issue of the total
almost orientation of the tenants to the sidewalk. Parking creates activity, and again - we
would hope that it would reestablish the idea of the street activity there." Mf. [Shane]
Doran said, "This is the first we've heard of this. We're open to exploring it ifit can be-
safety would be my only concern; but if it can safely add some on-street parking, then
good idea."
Manager McLemore then spoke on the issue of traffic stating, "Traffic Calming, again, is
a key component of Neo- Traditional Design because of the requirements of making the
area pedestrian friendly. The way traffic is handled has a real impact on the success of
the area; and we've got two big issues. One is taming State Road 434 - we have been
turned down once by FDOT [Florida Department of Transportation] with the idea of
downgrading the classification of [State Road] 434 to an urban street. It's done all over
the state; I don't know why we couldn't do it here." Manager McLemore then said, "We
want to slow things down and create opportunities for people to stop, come in, and have a
- pedestrian friendly environment."
Next, Manager McLemore said, "If we do make any improvements [to the Town Center],
that before we go installing additional traffic signals, that those improvements be
designed into that geometry of those signalized intersections. So, what I'm
recommending, and Shane [Doran] and I have talked about this, was entering into a
contract with Glatting, Jackson, [Kercher, Anglin, Lopez, Rinehart, Inc.] because they
have the preeminent expert on Traffic Calming and Neo- Traditional Design as it relates
to traffic."
Manager McLemore then stated, "So, we have a written proposal from them to create the
engineering arguments in the case for downgrading [State Road] - 434 to an urban street;
and also, to review the traffic circulation on JDC [James Doran Company] property and
the interface with [State Road] 434, so whatever we do next makes sense. We have the
opportunity to make that enhancement, and I think we are all on board together with that
one, too, Shane [Doran]." Mr. [Shane] Doran responded, "Absolutely. Ron [McLemore]
and I are in agreement on this."
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Mr. Scott Parker, James Doran Company, 216 Seven Farms Drive, Suite 200,
Charleston, South Carolina: said, "To really make this place into the type of Town
Center that you all are talking about, something very important needs to happen on [State
Road] 434. Not just from the standpoint of Traffic Calming, but from an aesthetic
standpoint. When you are corning into the Town Center - that you see something
different happening there. So, we're talking more than just engineering; we're talking
about planting of trees; and redoing the lanes; and doing things in the median; and really
sending a signal to everybody that comes to this place that this is the center of town and
that something different is happening here. The other thing that they will address is how
the little frontage roads work and how cars get in and out of those, which again is critical
to your other issues which you are talking about - where is the front of the shops? And,
until that is figured out with [State Road] 434, nothing else is really going to fall in place.
So, I cannot emphasize enough how important that is to creating the type of place that
you want to have happen here."
City Attorney Anthony A. Garganese arrived at 12:22 p.m.
Next, Manager McLemore said, "We have a real lack of shade in the Town Center - a
particular problem on [State Road] 434." Manager McLemore added, "We need to find
alternative ways of creating more shade for, particularly, the areas facing [State Road]
434. I had introduced in here, and also had Victor [Dover] look at - the landscaped area
in front of Subway - to really convert that area with a pergola type structure that would
allow us to have some seating tables under shade - some sketches are provided here. We
need to look at ways to see if there are pieces related to the building or techniques or
whatever where we can to create more shade; and particularly related to [State Road]
434, we need to be able to plant trees along [State Road] 434 that will shade the fronts of
those buildings. Now, to do that, again it comes back to FDOT [Florida Department of
Transportation]. "
Manager McLemore then stated, "We talked about the area across from Wendy's. It was
intended to be a park for dining, outer dining, and leisure activity - it is extremely hot.
There also, we thought possibly, some type of pergola type of structure with plant
material- growing on it, with tables." Manager McLemore added, "We need to deal with
Wendy's. We need to plant some good trees on that piece of ground, landscaping,
hopefully do some kind of pergola type structure that would invite people in there."
Furthermore, Manager McLemore stated, "We need to follow through on that strategy
with them [Wendy's]." Discussion.
Additionally, Manager McLemore then discussed drainage issues related to Building 9
and suggested, "It's got to go through a drainage system." Mr. [Shane] Doran stated,
"That is just real expensive - we haven't priced it but I know it is going to be a major
undertaking and it is going to rip up the parking lot. I'll certainly study it."
Commissioner McLeod said, "Why don't we look at that when we - do our walk and
discuss it a little bit."
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Discussion.
Manager McLemore briefly discussed the design of the Publix and commented that, "We
wound up with a 45,000 square foot store. We did discuss in our Agreement - about
coming back to liner buildings as an interim - JDC [James Doran Company] installed the
display windows which helped cure that blank wall problem. I think we really need to
begin exploring the idea of liner buildings for that blank wall as part of the overall
strategy; and creates additional rental space."
Commissioner McLeod asked Manager McLemore, "Doesn't that change the whole
parking - right along that area, too, Ron?" Manager McLemore responded, "Yes, to
parallel parking in that section." Manager McLemore added, "I'm talking about doing it
for the good of the development." Commissioner McLeod, "Why don't you ask the
Developer to please go back and take another look - see if it is feasible?" Mr. [Shane]
Doran replied, "We are always open to ideas. As I was clear at the time, it was some
time ago when we were talking about this - I'm at Publix's mercy on this. Anything I
build onto their building they have a say about it. And to date, they haven't been
receptive to it. But, I'm open to studying it furthef."
Manager McLemore said, "Again, it's just an idea. Between Building 11 and Building 1
we have some dead space, and the question is, can we turn that dead space into usable
space by moving that brick wall back about eight feet (8') and creating some additional
space for either outdoor dining or a news stand or something that would generate activity;
maybe additional rents, whatevef." Manager McLemore added, "There are a lot of things
that we could do, potentially, if we move that wall back and create usable space there. So
the idea, Shane [Doran], is just look at that and see if instead of having a blank wall, we
could move it back and have some utility for that area."
Discussion ensued on utilities that are possibly in that area. Mr. [Shane] Doran said, "I
will look at it, but I think it is chock full of stuff." Commissioner Blake suggested, "A
better solution would be to make it a walk-through - to get from the parking lot out to the
street. "
Manager McLemore introduced the topic of signage and stated, "Signage, we need to do
a better job of signage." Manager McLemore explained, "As part of our agreement with
StreetSense, they are going to look at this issue of signage; informational signage, and
our current signage regulations in the Code, and to make comments and
recommendations on improved signage in the Town Center." Furthermore, Manager
McLemore added, "We need to, on the City's part, replace all of that typical municipal
grade signage with decorative signage. Shane [Doran], we would hope that you will do
the same on your property and make that a standard for the rest of the development."
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With further discussion, Manager McLemore stated that "The only signage that he
addressed in our Code was building signage." Mr. [Shane] Doran stated, "I'm open to
improving the signage, the tenant signage." Mr. [Shane] Doran further commented,
"Some of the signage out there, as far as tenants go, I think is just great, some of it is just
okay - and we're trying to improve upon that. I'm interested in seeing what StreetSense
has. Maybe we can improve those standards. As far as the directional signage - we
installed it, and then we were told that it wasn't liked, that we should improve it - at the
time, the solution presented to us by the City Manager was really expensive. But-
maybe there is some middle ground; and we'll look through some catalogs and look at
that, because we want it to look good too. We certainly want to be first class in every
way."
Mr. Leigh Colyer, Construction Manager, James Doran Company, 216 Seven Farms
Drive, Suite 200, Charleston, South Carolina: stated, "I thought we discussed it with
Ron [McLemore] about ordering these decorative posts with the little finial on top? And
that was going to be sufficient." Mr. [Shane] Doran explained, "It's just a finial on top;
the posts are square rather than those ones with the holes in them like what we are used
to; and you just paint the back of them a flat green. It looks a lot better than a normal
sign,"
Manager McLemore proceeded with concerns about the fountain in the Town Centef.
Mr. [Shane] Doran said to Manager McLemore, "We'll look at it. I don't dislike it as
much as you do, but it certainly could be more prominent." Additionally, Mf. [Shane]
Doran added, "Once again - any chance to improve it, we'll look at it. We'd like to study
where we would relocate that fountain, what we would do with it, because it wasn't an
insignificant cost. We just heard about it last night, and we are going to digest it and
have a look at it." Manager McLemore suggested, "Or, see about a method of staining it
to lighten it up, so when you put the light on it, it reflects rather than being absorbed by
the dark materia1." Deputy Mayor Martinez commented, "It needs more - a stronger
lighting effect - so that it can attract more people, call attention to it." Manager
McLemore responded, "The dilemma is no matter how much light you put on it - it will
not reflect light; it is just not going to stand out."
Further discussion followed on "Events Management". Manager McLemore pointed out,
"The time is going to come when we are really going to need to focus in on a managed
system of events to keep the activity in front of everybody all of the time." Deputy
Mayor Martinez added, "It has to be a person who can produce events that are going to
attract the type of people you want to come here." "Sure, I agree," stated Manager
McLemore. Commissioner Sally McGinnis added, "It will be a good marketing tool for
you."
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Mr. [Shane] Doran said, "Ron [McLemore] and I completely agree, and we saw the same
thing in Reston [Virginia]. It is very important - we are committed to cooperating where
we can and we kicked it off." Mf. [Shane] Doran added, "I was really impressed how
that went, that Tree Lighting [Ceremony], considering the short notice. We'll do better
next year and build on that. I think that special events are very important, and we will be
very cooperative, however we can." Commissioner McLeod suggested, "A little nicer
tree might help."
With discussion, Commissioner McLeod stated, "Ron [McLemore], you are talking here,
for some Events Manager - you are talking a three (3) to five (5) year projection down the
road - between the City and the Developer - we will look at possibly work on some
events for some holidays." Commissioner McLeod added, "I think some of these would
be nice if we had this thing dated and had some projected times in here, so we can see as
we move forward, how our projections were focused." Mr. [Shane] Doran added, "In
the meantime, Ron [McLemore] could just work together, event by event." Manager
McLemore agreed and said, "Yes."
On the issue of parking fields, Manager McLemore stated, "What happens in the future?
If there are going to be parking fields, we need to embrace this concept - exactly what
they do in Winter Park Village."
Discussion ensued on building issues. Commissioner Blake stated, "I feel very strongly
that in going forward we have to make changes to the Code to make sure that we fix this
problem." Commissioner Blake added, "We have got to change the Code. We have got
to make it so that it is fair for everybody in going forward. In terms of the buildings that
are already there, we are going to have to, I think, continue to have some compromises
that we have already made, and perhaps even others, to make them work." Discussion.
Tape 2/Side A
Manager McLemore addressed the need for sidewalk activity, and wide sidewalks and
stated, "There is a real preference to having the sidewalks at grade level with an entrance
to the building - steps on the sidewalk are not desirable. One, there is an obstruction;
increased opportunities for pedestrian injuries. And it just is something we don't want to
happen if we can prevent it. If you have to accomplish - matching the store grade to the
sidewalk grade, by going inside the building, then you're taking away leaseable space to
some degree, or let's say usable space. So, a step system needs to be avoided as much as
we possibly can and doors need to be obsolete - preferably, at grade with the sidewalk so
that we don't have that problem."
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Furthermore, Manager McLemore noted, "Because of this fact that this is the premier
building, actually at the opening of the Town Center and Main Street, it is incumbent
upon us to do everything we could to find a good solution to this problem. So, what I had
requested was that we had Randall Paulson, who was the architect with JDC [James
Doran Company], Victor [Dover], and Jon Eisen of StreetSense all look at that and come
back with concepts as to how to deal with it. Those concepts are here for you to look at."
With discussion, Mf. [Shane] Doran stated, "We got our grading plan approved and were
moving forward and it was discovered that there were going to be some problems due to
a substantial grade difference between our approved plan and the plans for Main Street.
A compromise was reached, it was going to be a thirdla thirdla third - unfortunately Ron
[McLemore] chose not to pay our engineering fees which were a part of that third, but
that's another issue. We discovered later that it didn't solve all the problems and we
started getting into with Building 2, various things - we talked about stepping spaces
front to back; stepping spaces sideways; we went back and forth."
Mf. [Shane] Doran added, "Some of our solutions - did involve steps in the sidewalk,
which I agree is not ideal; but Ron [McLemore] and Staff were very much not receptive
to that. We've tried to avoid it. It is my understanding that stepping this building inside
the slab was suggested and preferred by the City because it was going to help alleviate
grade differences."
Discussion ensued on doors, non-functioning doors, and Code requirements.
Commissioner McLeod stated, "In this particular case, maybe something in good faith
showing that we are all willing to operate together and move through some of the
problems but to resolve the problems that is what we are here supposedly today for, is
find ways to work together - to take this one, ask the Developer to remove that storefront
of the door, make it match the one to the north of it under the same awning, and to fill in
the space to make it look continuous, and be done with the issue. But, in the future, if
this type thing comes up, that wouldn't happen - everybody then understands - these are
operable doors." Discussion.
Mr. Colyer asked that the building plan approval process be discussed. With discussion,
Commissioner Blake stated, "Ron [McLemore], twenty (20) weeks is a long time, and we
ought to endeavor to do the best we can for not only this applicant or a future applicant,
but all others in the City that come to the City to develop." Deputy Mayor Martinez
added, "Is this something you and Staff can work on?" Manager McLemore responded,
"If we get stuff that is Code compliant when it walks in the door, and we don't have
issues, we can turn them around in a hurry."
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Deputy Mayor Martinez then said, "Many issues have been brought forth that have to be
dealt with. I believe that the Developer is of an open mind; he has agreed to many of the
things that you went over Ron [McLemore], and some of the other issues he says we have
to discuss. Now, I think it is going to be up to you [Manager McLemore] and your staff
to get together with him and make it in a fashion where it - simulates teamwork."
Discussion.
With discussion on the proposed fifteen foot (15') rule and an upcoming related
Ordinance Reading scheduled for March 9th, 2004 - Commissioner McLeod suggested to
Deputy Mayor Martinez, "Maybe what we should have is a follow-up Meeting to this
where the next Meeting, the Agenda is laid out, perhaps by the Developer who has the
floor first and then the City would take second." Deputy Mayor Martinez added, "That is
what I suggested, a follow-up Meeting to this." Commissioner McGinnis suggested,
"ASAP." Mr. [Shane] Doran said, "We could provide a schedule tomorrow, when we get
back to the office, as to when we could be available."
Further discussion followed on the Ordinance Reading scheduled for March 9th, 2004,
Commissioner Blake stated, "I would certainly be in favor of delaying it, and we could
that evening postpone it for two (2) weeks, or until the next Meeting, whenever that is, it
might be three (3) weeks but, until the Meeting following the [March] 9th in order to
make sure that you have that audience." Deputy Mayor Martinez said to Attorney
Garganese, "Would it be possible to follow up a suggestion on [March] the 9th, when the
issue comes up?" No objection was noted.
Commissioner McLeod then said, "I just hope that they follow through and all
Commissioners would get covered with a letter as to when we would be able to meet
again. "
REGULAR
500. Office Of The City Manager
Requests The City Commission Conduct A Walking Tour Of The Winter Springs
Town Center With The Developer James Doran Company And Their
Representatives.
Deputy Mayor Martinez; Commissioner Blake; Commissioner McGinnis; Commissioner
McLeod; Manager McLemore; Attorney Garganese; Ms. Andrea Lorenzo-Luaces, City
Clerk; Mr. John Baker, AICP, Senior Planner, Community Development Department;
Mr. Michael Mingea, Arborist/Environmental Inspector, Community Development
Department; Mr. Stephen Richart, Urban Beautification Coordinator, Public Works
Department; Ms. Eloise Sahlstrom, AICP, ASLA, Senior Planner, Community
Development Department; Mr. Shane Doran; Mr. Bob Doran; Mr. Leigh Colyer; Mr.
Seth Parker, and Mr. Russ Suddeth then left City Hall to tour the Town Center property.
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During the Walking Tour of the Town Center, graffiti was noted on the ground near
Subway; doors along the State Road 434 entrances to Rachel Nicole's Salon and the
Winter Springs Dentist were noted as locked; outdoor seating was discussed, as was. the
steel columns visible through windows. The fifteen foot (15') rule was discussed
referencing the State Farm office as an example; the pro's and con's of parallel parking
near the Subway business; and that Glatting, Jackson, Kercher, Anglin, Lopez, Rinehart,
Inc. should possibly assist with the issue of parallel parking.
Deputy Mayor Martinez departed the Workshop/Walking Tour at 2:25 p.m.
Further discussion ensued during the Walking Tour and stained concrete was noted
outside of the Leslie's store, along State Road 434.
Commissioner Blake departed the Workshop/Walking Tour at 2:37 p.m.
ADJOURNMENT
The Workshop was adjourned (at the Winter Springs Town Center) at approximately 2:47
p.m.
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