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HomeMy WebLinkAbout_2007 06 12 City Commission Workshop Minutes CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS, FLORIDA MINUTES CITY COMMISSION WORKSHOP JUNE 12, 2007 CALL TO ORDER The Workshop of Tuesday, June 12, 2007 of the City Commission was called to Order by Mayor John F. Bush at 5: 15 p.m. in the Commission Chambers of the Municipal Building (City Hall, 1126 East State Road 434, Winter Springs, Florida 32708). Roll Call: Mayor John F. Bush, present Deputy Mayor Sally McGinnis, arrived at 5:16 p.m. Commissioner Robert S. Miller, absent Commissioner Rick Brown, present Commissioner Donald A. Gilmore, present Commissioner Joanne M. Krebs, present City Manager Ronald W. McLemore, present City Attorney Anthony A. Garganese, absent Deputy Mayor McGinnis arrived at 5:16 p.m. The Pledge of Allegiance was followed by a moment of silence. REGULAR REGULAR 600. Community Development Department Requesting The City Commission To Listen To A Presentation By Dover Kohl And Partners And Ask Questions Regarding Administration Of The Town Center Code. Mr. Victor Dover, AICP, Dover, Kohl & Partners, 1571 Sunset Drive, Coral Gables, Florida: introduced James Doughtery and Christina O'Hara and noted, "While we are doing the DRC (Development Review Committee) training in this room, there is another half of the team that we have on location in your City Hall this week over in the Training Hall [Room] working on details of streets and things for upcoming Phases and progress on the Town Center. CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS, FLORIDA MINUTES CITY COMMISSION WORKSHOP - JUNE 12,2007 PAGE 2 OF 11 Mayor Bush asked, "The wood construction that is coming; we approved it last night but everybody was surprised about it; with the cost of materials are we going to be seeing more of and if so should we be approving it or not? Or can we not approve it? And if we do, does that just bring the whole thing to a - standstill because no one can afford to build anything?" Mr. Dover replied, "First of all, the cost of construction materials is not your key decision making factor on whether to approve a Project or not." Mayor Bush stated, "Well, but the decision is if we don't approve it they won't build it. So it stays vacant - we have an empty Town Center." Mr. Dover continued, "No matter what quality standards you set, there will always be a Builder/Developer on your doorstep threatening to pull the plug on a Project you had hoped for if you don't allow them to change it to something else, whatever the next new thing is that they are asking for. That said, the wood construction that is going on all over the region is wood construction that is compliant with the current Building Code and in particular on these multi-family structures. I haven't looked at the details of the Project that you approved last night, but I have just seen a lot of construction. We saw a lot of new construction at Baldwin Park this week as well; a lot of it in wood. That is construction coming with some givens, like Fire Ratings where - fire rated separations are required; sprinklers where sprinklers are required; and so on - so, these are not the wood structures of yesteryear in several ways. They are the wood structures that meet the contemporary Building Code requirements." Mayor Bush asked, "Do they last as long?" Mr. Dover answered, "Probably not. The Dade County Pine that we used to build Florida's wood structures out of is nearly indestructible and gets harder with every passing year." Discussion. Continuing Mr. Dover commented, "You all need to go as slow as you need to go to insist on quality results. In fact by going more slowly, you will probably get a better town than rushing to build it all at once. And wishing that property values had risen and ambitions had risen faster to keep up with it. So, - if an Applicant comes to you and says that their entire bottom line is demolished by a difference of five or six thousand dollars ($5,000.00 or $6,000.00) a dwelling unit, or ten thousand dollars ($10,000.00) a dwelling unit, or two or three thousand dollars ($2,000.00 or $3,000.00) a parking space in cost and that those numbers do sound big especially if you are doing a big Project; if they tell you that 'My whole project just evaporates' if that change occurs on the bottom line. CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS, FLORIDA MINUTES CITY COMMISSION WORKSHOP - JUNE 12, 2007 PAGE 3 OF 11 Then, that is a great moment for the Development Review Committee and the City Commission to pause, take a deep breath, and say 'What are we in a hurry for'; as the property continues to rise in value and the unique attractions of the - City as a whole and the Town Center in particular become apparent, you are going to make up that difference and more, if - you insist on quality one." Mr. Dover continued, "The Development Review Committee, when it is considering application for something in the Town Center, is not just judging functional requirements or utilitarian requirements. And I will read you a sentence in here that is very important All 'Applications are subject to review by the Development Review Committee' and 'The Committee shall have authority within reason for approving all aspects of site planning and exterior architecture, including aesthetic appropriateness, environmental implications, traffic impacts, and any other site-specific matters'." With further discussion Mr. Dover stated, "So what that tells us is that in the Town Center we are trying to be more careful than we are; we are not just checking off boxes than we are somewhere else in town. This is the most important real estate in town; so we are not just checking off requirements, like they do with the Building Code; where you're right, we don't have much to say, we are doing more than that. The Development Review Committee is checking for appropriateness. And you have adopted into Code and - that provision which says your Police power here will extend to 'Does it belong,' not just 'Will it stand up'." Discussion. Mr. Dover noted, "The approvals that are given by the Development Review Committee have standing; they are something that can be amended or revisited; repealed; replaced but they account for something and the drawings that you review when you make a determination that a Project is right or wrong in its design, those shouldn't be taken lightly by Applicants or Staff. So, I ask the question, Mr. Gilmore - about when that happened, before or after the Development Review Committee made its approval because if a Project is approved by you at the Conceptual stage is one thing or as the detailed stage is one thing and then comes back as something else - then I think that there is vulnerability there. Certainly if it came back as something better, you would be happy to reconvene and check it off. Right? There would be no problem with that. But if it comes back as something that has been - value engineered or - and isn't recognizable as the project that you approved, then you should all encourage your Staff to 'Stop it' and bring it back." With discussion on materials, Mr. Dover explained, "That choice is there for you all down the road if you - come to conclude that you want to limit the palette of materials - or maybe limit it except for Special Exceptions which can be considered case by case, you can do that." CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS, FLORIDA MINUTES CITY COMMISSION WORKSHOP - JUNE 12,2007 PAGE 4 OF 11 Mr. Dover passed a book along for the Mayor and Commission and mentioned architectural details. Discussion. Commissioner Joanne M. Krebs stated, "The only thing, Mayor, I was trying to say, I think we did put that into our - Development Agreement. We adopted whatever Codes - we even changed from time to time through the City for the appearance - Anthony (Garganese) did it." City Manager Ronald W. McLemore noted, "And again, a lot of these suggestions come from Victor (Dover) and them as we are going through and get them into the Plans, but I do think that another section dealing with building finishes would be good in the Code. Especially in light now of the fact that we are going more with the wood construction." Discussion continued regarding wood structure buildings along with the maintenance of the wood structure buildings and the structural integrity of such buildings. Additionally, Manager McLemore noted, "I really do agree, we need to look at the finishes and exteriors of these buildings maybe further." Occupancy Standards was covered next and Mr. Dover remarked, "It's not inconceivable that you could adopt an Occupancy Standard that called for a higher level of maintenance _ or prevention of neglect or however it should best be phrased. It sets a higher standard for the Town Center than is the case elsewhere." Continuing, Mr. Dover recommended, "A Development Agreement, at the very least, on a case-by-case basis if there is a doubt about the deal you are about to make - well, you build in provisions in that contract to address your doubt. And that is a one time, one case patch when you do it that way, and it's a universal thing when you do it in the Ordinance as a whole." Discussion ensued on the Master Plan and Code with Mr. Dover saying, "We have made some compromises to get started, that we're not going to keep making later on." Further discussion resulted in discussion regarding transit on State Road 434 and transit oriented developments. Mr. Dover noted, "The need on [State Road] 434 is to change - that all important segment I described from a fifty (50) mile an hour segment to a thirty (30) mile an hour segment. CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS, FLORIDA MINUTES CITY COMMISSION WORKSHOP - JUNE 12, 2007 PAGE 5 OF II That won't not harm your volumes or your ability to handle the capacity at the peak hours; it's not a problem for the motorists, but if a partnership eventually emerges, better than the one you've had in the past - between the City and the Department of Transportation to the point where you are contemplating real transit on that corridor, then that partnership - will eventually conclude slower speed on those lanes is the right thing to do. Now, when it is slower you can do all kinds of things with it that you can not do now, including stop a transit vehicle on the side. State of the art thinking on transit is to not have it pull out of the lanes, because if it has to pull out of the lanes; it has to wait for an opportunity to pull back in the lane." Tape 1/Side B With further comments, Mr. Dover remarked, "So this network of blocks of streets that's in your Code is one of the most important things to defend. 1 was curious to hear you describe an important piece of street that there is a debate over how to pay for it. That is the very kind of thing, a piece of street segment that someone doesn't feel like funding - the very kind of thing that often gets negotiated away. So, that would show up on my list of things for the DRC (Development Review Committee) to be very vigilant about, protect your street network. Have at least as many streets as are shown on the regulating plan and encourage those blocks to get even smaller through the creation of additional streets. " Continuing, Mr. Dover also stated that "In a Town Center, you encourage people to park one time, leave their car and accomplish a number of things on a single trip." Mr. Dover added, '''Park once' is really important. The way that you get 'Park once' is by making it highly 'walkable'. So, these are all interconnected things." Mayor Bush commented, "So, we should put our water collection box over there in the Town Center rather than over here where they have to drive over to it, right?" Mr. Dover replied, "Mr. Mayor, you should put your - City Hall in the heart of your Town Center. And if it's to be here, then it needs to be integrated with its surroundings; not sitting by itself like it's on an island, but rather connected up by the street network." Mr. Dover added, "The idea of the Master Plan is to hook these things up with walkable streets and blocks." Mr. Dover explained, "A five (5) minute walk is the distance that people will tend to walk if you present them with a walkable environment, without moving their car again to do it. So it's called a pedestrian-shed." Manager McLemore noted, "I think that needs another couple of sentences attached to it." Discussion. CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS, FLORIDA MINUTES CITY COMMISSION WORKSHOP - JUNE 12, 2007 PAGE 6 OF 11 In discussing restaurants, Commissioner Brown remarked, "The restaurants have not failed. But by not making parking convenient to these - and if you listen to the complaints of the people in the Town Center (the businesses), especially those back by the Wendy's which is a low performing revenue Wendy's, which the cell place is right there; the pre-made, take it home and cook it yourself pizza place that went under was there; you are hearing that traffic isn't there, people do not want to park and they do not want to walk, parking is too confined. So, it is not so much supporting the restaurants but it is supporting your small businesses that is really going to make up this core of this Town Center, that I think if we don't make it easy which has been one of the challenges in the small developmental stages of this Town Center, we start loosing economic opportunity for us small businessmen." Discussion continued. Mr. Dover explained, "When there is residential, we expect there to be an elevated finish floor - and that is the first thing they will ask to opt out of. The developer will tell you - 'I don't feel like building 'up that deck.' I feel like building slab-on-grade because it is cheaper. And that's one of the most important things to be vigilant about. Ground floor residential needs an elevated finish floor." In discussing the Town Center District Code, Mr. Dover explained, "The front end of it is pretty important because it has a description of how to use this Code. It also preceeds that with a description of why you are doing what you are doing in this Ordinance; like you would with the 'Whereas's' of any other Ordinance." Mayor Bush called a Recess at 6:35 p.m. The Workshop was called back to Order at 6:43 p.m. Mr. James Dougherty, Director of Design, Dover, Kohl & Partners, 1571 Sunset Drive, Coral Gables, Florida: addressed the City Commission. Mr. Dover stated, "Special Exceptions is not something that you give away lightly or freely or easily." And Mr. Dover added, "You are doing something really important, potentially harmful every time you grant a Special Exception. So, you want to be very cautious with Special Exceptions." Further discussion. Tape 2/Side A Discussion continued on the Town Center and Workforce Housing. Mayor Bush suggested that lapel or belt microphones be available for guest speakers. CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS, FLORIDA MINUTES CITY COMMISSION WORKSHOP - JUNE 12,2007 PAGE 7 OF II Discussion followed on street types within the Town Center and an interconnected network; Town Centers and boulevards. Mr. Rick Hall, HPE Planning & Engineering, 1237 North Adams Street, Tallahassee, Florida: stated, "They do not know how to deal with a new version of an old traditional town. So, the best thing that you could do is get back with DOT (Department of Transportation) again and say 'Let's have a renewed conversation' of the one that you had with Denver Stutler [Jr.], the previous Secretary. There's a new Secretary and say 'Now, we would like to renew that' and then take it to the next step. Because we have a new urbanism town, and we need you to give us credit, DOT (Department of Transportation), for activating walking, biking, and transit as well as just highways. And that is what they want to do. So, get that renewed and get the speed down to thirty-five (35) [miles per hour]. Get them to agree that it will be thirty-five (35) [miles per hour] definitely at a certain staged point. Then, the rest of the design can be moved forward with that known fact, instead of this 'if thing. You should never allow six (6) lanes out there, okay, because your walkablity would go down to zero, not zero, but it would be severely diminished. So, don't even think about letting them do that as a six-lane highway or you have lost the game. But, I think that we can get them to agree to thirty-five (35) [miles per hour] because of your unique contribution and effort to make it a walkable town." Continuing with the presentation, Mr. Dougherty spoke about the fronts and backs of buildings. Mr. Dover stated, "There is an emergency really so that that first Phase can start working like it should, because right now it is giving people the wrong impression of your Town Center." Mr. Dougherty said, "The access lane also, in terms of the question of spatial definition, that row of trees that Victor (Dover) was talking about - in addition to creating kind of an edge for the fast or thru moving lanes in the Center, these essentially form a similar function to the Buildings on the other side of the street on Tuskawilla [Road] in that they create the feeling of an outdoor room, you know contains space that has walls and a floor." Further discussion ensued about the building space and the access to buildings. Commissioner Brown commented, "We've got the only State Road or the only access way connecting Oviedo and Longwood and the traffic on that builds every single day. Have you had conversations with anybody at FDOT (Florida Department of Transportation) to lead you to believe that we would be successful in lowering that speed limit?" CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS, FLORIDA MINUTES CITY COMMISSION WORKSHOP - JUNE 12,2007 PAGE 8 OF II Mr. Hall replied, "There are a number of people in Florida DOT (Department of Transportation) that realize that the best place for them to be in the next forty (40) years is to get more modes going instead of - just more lanes. So they need to get people walking and bicycling and reusing transit to get the VMT (Vehicle Miles Traveled) down because that is what is hurting us in quite a number of ways. They will still try to get as many lanes as they can without damaging places, but quite frankly they are pretty short on money also. They're not in a mood for major road expansions now; given the funding forecast. They are moving into a stage where they have to use a lot more of their revenue just to maintain the old asphalt and the conditions that they already have in their major infrastructure. So, most people that I talk to, are saying that the future vision for the next forty (40) years; there is going to be increasing traffic congestion in the peak periods and more of a need to get mass transit going for the longer trips and to get land rearranged for shorter trips so that more people can walk and bike. So, the future is going to be more modes and probably more capacity issues all around the region. Now, what we are talking about out here; speed and capacity are not the same thing. When you slow down vehicles, then they naturally get closer together." Continuing, Mr. Hall explained, So, you are compressing the vehicles into a tighter pack when they leave the signal, if they all stay at a lower speed; so, you will be able to get close to the same capacity whether you have the speed limit at fifty (50) or at thirty-five (35). It's not a capacity problem when you drop the speed like that, it's just a lower speed that everyone drives." Mr. Dover remarked, "When the miles per hour go down, the volume isn't sacrificed. You still handle the volume. So, the real question is, at what speed do you want your volumes coming through your Town Center, not whether you will be able to handle them or not. Now, the peak hours congested and there are cues behind traffic signals and that will be true from now until the end of time, even if they eight (8) laned it or ten (10) - laned it or whatever, that would continue to be true, so you can't build your way out of that problem. So, the answer is, we know there will be congestion at the peak hour on important intersections like Tuskawilla Road and [State Road] 434 and that will be true forever. " Furthermore, Mr. Dover said, "The only thing that you can do is say, 'We know this will be the case; we are going to go on with the business of making a great Town Center; what do we have to do'. So, have your congestion at thirty (30) miles an hour or thirty-five (35) miles an hour instead of at fifty (50). The capacity will still be there; the volume will still get through and we'll have more valuable property on both sides for your local tax base. We'll sell people things for your sales tax and you will have a place you will admire and your pedestrians are happy. So, it's a challenge worth making and a pitch worth making again to the DOT (Department of Transportation)." CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS, FLORIDA MINUTES CITY COMMISSION WORKSHOP - JUNE 12,2007 PAGE 9 OF II Further discussion. Tape 2/Side B As the presentation carne to a close, Mr. Dougherty remarked about the opacity and transparency of facades on the Buildings within the Town Center. Mr. Dougherty continued and said, "There is a quite extensive Section dealing with the Signs. One of the primary focuses of the Sign Section is to Permit Signs that are typically found within walkable mixed used areas. " Furthermore, Mr. Dougherty mentioned that "The Town Center Code is meant to be adjusted over time and I think that these specific architectural guidelines are one of the spots where things may need to get added in over time, especially as developments are going in on the ground and specific issues come up." Mr. Dover stated, "One of the concepts under 'Doors and Windows', it says that windows should be vertically oriented." Mr. Dover added, "It was intended that as new kinds of streets get proposed or the need for them emerges, you could just add them into the format." Discussion ensued on sidewalks. Mr. Dover remarked that "The tree line that is missing between the side access lane and the main of [State Road] 434 is unbelievably important. I mean it is at the very top of the list. We have to figure a way to get that in there, sidewalk or no sidewalk." Mr. Dougherty commented that "It is important to make sure that the trees are large enough - of a species that is going to grow large enough, that - they'll provide shade, provide that spatial definition, and also grow tall enough that the limbs can be up high enough that you can look through from the thru-going-lanes and still see the storefronts as well." Continuing, Mr. Dover stated "We talked this over with Steve [Richart] - the director of your Beautification program today and went through this in some detail; and - the feeling that the time might be right to make a new approach to the DOT (Department of Transportation) but there is a package of things we're talking about here - lower posted speed, lower design speed on the thru-going lanes, planting of a lot of missing trees, relocation of a sidewalk, an adjustment of the access so that the access lane is accessible. So, it's really important to go to the DOT (Department of Transportation) with a whole ensemble of stuff and explain it as a coordinated concept not piecemeal on one item at a time. " CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS, FLORIDA MINUTES CITY COMMISSION WORKSHOP - JUNE 12, 2007 PAGE 10 OF II Mr. Hall noted, "Just as your investment in the urban design for this town has given you lots of increase in land value - maintenance of all of the landscaping is critical to the continuation of it going up in land value. You will realize a twenty (20) fold increase, a ten (10) fold increase in your land values, if you have a maintenance program out there that is top notch." Mayor Bush again suggested that a better microphone system be available for speakers. Discussion. Manager McLemore said, "Part of that question, 'Where do we go from here?' 1 still think that we are headed to another big Workshop relatively soon, relative to the whole question of these cures. 1 don't think that is going to be possible to handle tonight; that is going to have to be a Special Meeting. Victor [Dover], how long before you think we can be ready?" Furthermore, Manager McLemore said, "But it has got to get back to you relatively soon because the main question has to be asked, 'Are you up to the task to try - to approach this at what level?' because there are several different levels - that we can go at and they are somewhat complicated. And again, the problem is some of this is out of our control. So, we have to get FDOT (Florida Department of Transportation) on board here and you know we spent three (3) years and a hundred thousand dollars ($100,000.00) just trying to get this Access Management Plan through them." Mr. Dover stated, "We need four (4) to six (6) weeks here, Ron [McLemore]." Manager McLemore said, "To get ready for this next Workshop?" Mr. Dover said, "Yes. So, we need to do that Meeting with Brian [Fields, P.E., City Engineer, Public Works Department] present." Mayor Bush suggested that a presentation be put together to go before the MetroPlan Orlando Advisory Committee for their consideration. Manager McLemore stated, "I think that we will have a package for you to look at in four (4) weeks, six (6) weeks." Commissioner Krebs suggested that the presentation should include movement within the City of Winter Springs, and future plans for movement within the City. ADJOURNMENT CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS, FLORIDA MINUTES CITY COMMISSION WORKSHOP - JUNE 12, 2007 PAGE 11 OF 11 Mayor Bush adjourned the Workshop at approximately 8:11 p.m. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED: ANDREA LORENZO-LUACES, CMC, CITY CLERK AND CtJhLLdu40'U CAROL LALLA THIN ASSIST ANT TO THE CITY CLERK APPROVED: L'7~ NOTE: These Minutes were approved at the June 25, 2007 Regular City Commission Meeting.