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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1995 08 28 City Commission Workshop Minutes -~~7..'l:'T- MINUTES CITY COMMISSION WORKSHOP AUGUST 28, 1995 Deputy Mayor Langellotti called the meeting to order at 5:05 p.m. Roll Call: Mayor John Bush, absent Deputy Mayor John Langellotti, present Commissioner Larry Conniff, present Commissioner John Ferring, present Commissioner Cindy Gennell, absent Commissioner David McLeod, present City Official. present John Govoruhk, City Manager Don LeBlanc introduced property owners Judge Ken Lefller, Frank Scrimsher, and Don McIntosh. Govoruhk stated that all property owners were invited to this meeting. Mayor Bush arrived, and Gennell arrived minutes later. Tom Grimms stated that the State Road 434 Vision Project is an outgrowth of the extended discussions which were held in the past year and into early 1995. On Feb 6, 1995 the commission decided that should be consideration ofa visioning for State Road 434. It was also decided that the Berryman and Henigar firm would be hired to do the visioning plan for the S.R. 434. Fred Goodrow being the contact person. The staff is in the process of reviewing the two proposals, and reports will be sent to both consultants. Grimms read the relative statutory requirements. Section 163.3167(11): Each local government is encouraged to articulate a vision of the future physical appearance and qualities of it's community as a component of it's local comprehensive plan. The division should be developed through a collaborative planning process with meaningful public participation and shall be adopted by the governing body of the jurisdiction. Section 163.3202(3): These and all other such regulations shall be combined and compiled into a single land development code for the jurisdiction. The cover letter which accompanied the McIntosh proposal stated that they request the 434 Corridor design standards stand alone. This means being processed and administered independent of any current or future land development codes adopted by the city, so as not to delay adoption or implementation of the design standards. The Planning and Zoning Board is coming to conclusion on its draft land development regulations for the city, and a public hearing will be held. Mayor Bush asked for comments or questions. McLeod asked ifHenigar is still involved. Grimms answered yes. Gennell asked if it was Berryman and Henigar who drew the dividing line between Segment 1 & 3. Grimms answered correct. She MINUTES CITY COMMISSION WORKSHOP AUGUST 28, 1995 PAGE 2 also asked why doesn't it go as far down as there is undeveloped land. Grimms said that could be done, but he didn't understand their criteria for extending section 1 that far eastward. Ferring stated he read the 434 Corridor overline design standards, and asked if the commission would be walked through the reasonings on the document. Grimms stated.that Berryman and Henigar had previously requested a workshop. Ferring asked that the issue could be tabled since Berryman and Henigar were not present. Langellotti thought there was not going to be a Town Center. Grimms stated that the Town Center was still in the Comprehensive Plan. The proposal eliminates the bypass road. Don McIntosh said the property owners were to produce a document. The document presented this evening was designed to provide for visioning guideline for the area moving from the Intersection of 419 through to the east of the expressway. The corridor is intended to deal with properties adjacent to the 434 right-of-way. McLeod asked how the signs fall within the ordinance. LeBlanc said he is only aware of the billboard type sign being reworked in the ordinance. McLeod asked the city manager if staff could let the commission know if there is an ordinance at the present time to a sign that is being recommended and the square footage of that sign, so as further reviewed there will be something to compare with. McLeod said there seemed to be a lot of signs, and that's not what he's envisioning for the corridor. Ferring stated his concerns on where the standards were drawn from and how they equate with the current standards. He asked if the staff has reviewed the standards and whether or not they are compatible with the city. McIntosh said the city code on signs is very general. In the specificity provided in the document are concrete guidelines for tenants to understand where they can and cannot put signs. The guidelines are sensitive to the market requirements for center users. McLeod said he wanted to have something to look at and identify with. Ferring asked how they researched the standards. McIntosh said they have a whole file of where the information came from, and can provide the city with their list of sources. He stated that there is a way to make the corridor beautiful and maintain property values. Gennell asked McIntosh if they were anticipating off site signs of billboard size. (#6-Commercial Outdoor Advertising i.e. Billboards) McIntosh said this section is intended to accommodate billboards. The billboards are maximum of every 2000 feet and permitted in two year increments. Gennell stated that she hoped there are not billboards. McIntosh said they know the city is struggling with this issue and maybe some land owners can speak forcefully. MINUTES CITY COMMISSION WORKSHOP AUGUST 28, 1995 PAGE 3 GeoneU also asked if there is any options to the multi-tenant signs because these signs are a traffic hazard and the print is too small to read. McIntosh said that functionally there is a way of prohibiting these signs, but practically the tenants want to have street side identification. Not having street side ill could have a significant negative impact on the value of the property or the people who are willing to come. Signs should be large enough to read. Architectural standards beyond what is contained in this document and limiting the number of signs may be the way to control it. GeoneU asked how they reconcile the needs of the tenants with the desire of the residents. McIntosh said to put everything on the table and find a middle ground. The corridor will have commercial use and the multi-tenant sign is very important to tenants. Mayor Bush said photographs would be helpful in this situation. He added that he doesn't want to see billboards along the corridor either. The billboards are rented out to businesses that usually aren't even in the city. What is a "V" sign? McIntosh stated that it is a billboard separated face. Langellotti asked what is a "back lit" sign? It is a sign with internal lighting. Conniff stated that the "signs" issue needs to be looked at very carefully and the commission will be seeking the middle ground. McLeod suggested a sign with the name of the center and three or four prime store names, but not all of the businesses in the center. McIntosh said it is important to understand two things: 1) many commercial property owners are long term owners. If the corridor gets fouled up it hurts everyone. 2) this document is not a "let's ask for anything we can think of and that will be the place to start negotiating" document. This document was mulled over for hours and hours by the players. There was a lot of work done by the parties who own property and it was brought here with a positive constructive intent. This is not singularly profit motivated. McLeod said that the document has been well thought of, well written, and a good starting point for negotiations both ways. Brief discussion on signs. Mayor Bush stated that we need to make sure we don't get into the same predicament as the County regarding permanent flags. Also Bush disagreed that we give 20 days prior written notice when something is wrong.(13-Maintenance) There should be a better mechanism to notify people when they are out of compliance so that the situation can be corrected much sooner. Bush asked that the city attorney and Govoruhk work with McIntosh on these issues. McLeod suggested (for example) that the main large sign displays the series of addresses (4700-4715) in a shopping area which has 15 addresses. MINUTES CITY COMMISSION WORKSHOP AUGUST 28, 1995 PAGE 4 Ferring suggested that Section 14-(nonconfonning signs) be revisited and that staff should look over it also. The time allotments that have been designated are much too long. Gennell asked McIntosh if he anticipated that the developments along the corridor are going to be in the form of PUD's or strip centers. McIntosh said the city should plan for both, and be able to handle with these standards a multitude of land uses-office and commercial as well as PUD. Mayor Bush asked who is responsible for maintaining the stormwater management ponds. LeBlanc said that the city is responsible for public ponds within the banks. If outside of the banks, it belongs to the developer. Bush also asked who is responsible for the retention pond located between Indian Trails and Keeth Elementary. LeBlanc said the school board is responsible. Bush asked that the city manager contact the school board about the pond. McLeod stated that the commission is not in favor of buffer zones or part of buffer zones being retention ponds on the front portion of the properties along the corridor. McIntosh explained that the area from Wagners curve west is difficult with the ground water table to have anything with depth be dry unless the site is filled because the ground water is so high. McLeod added that retention ponds should be on the back side of the property. Swales will be needed to run water to the pond. McIntosh stated that one of the challenges is that a piece of property (for example) slops very heavily towards the front, and S.R. 434 will be the discharge mechanism that takes stormwater away from an area. The target for outfall will be the roadway. McLeod said that the St. John's does not allow water to be brought off the property to the roadway through the 100 year flood plan. McIntosh said you have to treat it before you discharge it. Filling and regrading can have a major economic impact. McLeod said Winter Springs is pretty much flatland. McIntosh said three feet of fill is a lot. The intention is to get done what the city wants while at the same time preserving some logical and less than onerous mechanisms for meeting the design standards of today. Gennell asked what would be the remedy regarding the buffer section, # 1. McIntosh said that the first remedy would be that a permit is not issued unless you have provided for the appropriate amount of landscaping with your site plan. Second would be to get a CO. That would take care of the purchase installation of the irrigation and all required landscaping. This is probably a better question for the city attorney because he's clearer on the lien rights and code enforcement actions. Gennell added that if you have it in a PUD it's easy to take care of, but if it's not in a PUD this is one thing she felt needed to be accommodated in this document. McIntosh said if it's a property owner's association, and the association is funded; they have been used in the city which provides a somewhat reliable mechanism for maintaining these things. With multi-tenant, multi-owner or larger commercial sites that is very viable. Gennell said it is easy to put the stuff in. McIntosh stated that there is a municipal taxing unit that's used quite a bit in other municipalities that is a mechanism for the provision of maintenance. The funding is collected and utilized by the property owners associations to maintain certain things. Generally, privately installed landscaping is beyond what those things are " MINUTES CITY COMMISSION WORKSHOP AUGUST 28, 1995 PAGE 5 used for. It is traditionally for street lights, side walk installations, etc. Often times they are used in PUD's for common area maintenance. Gennell wanted the document to spell out what they are in violation of and what is the remedy after the property has changed hands a couple of times. LeBlanc stated that the set back requirement for commercial property is fifteen(15) feet from the right-of-way line. The code calls for fifteen (15) feet set back in the C-l district. McLeod stated that the staff needed to bring the drawings of the 419 widening back before the commission to show them how far back the sidewalk is from the curb edge of the highway. Is it adequate for what we want for visioning? Are the signs going to be on the backside or within the fifteen feet? What is the depth of each available piece of property along the corridor? Mcintosh said they will provide city staff with a set back table they have developed. Mayor Bush said with reference to "Walls" being brick, decorative, or split-faced concrete block that he would like the commission to consider all brick. McIntosh said he would get literature on the many alternatives to brick. Gennell asked if there was anything in this document or in the city code that lays out what the building orientations have to be because she would like to avoid seeing any building facing backwards to the corridor. Mayor Bush asked if all of the utility lines(H), including power lines could be buried. Mcintosh said it is very expensive, and sometimes utility companies purposely prohibit it. McIntosh will bring in several figures. Mayor Bush said maybe it could be handled with the municipal taxing district. Conniff said he would like to see as few access (driveways) roads as possible. Mcintosh said that DOT has new standards which the development community feels is prohibitive in terms of number and spacing of access points. Gennell asked that Govoruhk research the Settlement Agreement with Tuscawilla to find out if there is provision for a commercial PUD to be established to provide for underground utilities. Mayor Bush agreed. Langellotti said there has been a big problem with the municipal taxing district and the 17-92 task force. Maybe DOT could do something about it because they are looking at beautifying state roads. Mcintosh said it wouldn't hurt to check. McLeod said, we have asked DOT and they said they wouldn't do it here. Gennell asked for McIntosh's opinion on the comment she made to Grimms earlier regarding the cut off point between 1 & 3. To the left of the delineation is Hayes Road which is a half a mile of MINUTES CITY COMMISSION WORKSHOP AUGUST 28, 1995 PAGE 6 undeveloped land on both sides, then another half a mile on the south side which is undeveloped. Is there a logical reason why it couldn't be extended to include the undeveloped land? McIntosh said that the Berryman & Henigar people could address that issue. Gennell said that she hoped all of the undeveloped land which goes further down could be included in the design standards. Ferring asked McIntosh how much input they had with staff, and was it solicited. Mcintosh said they did their work intentionally in a vacuum other than one meeting with staff, obtaining information from Henigar and Ray, and attending hearings at city hall. This document has been discussed for a long time because it is important, and Mcintosh hoped the city would enlist their support in moving this project along with priority. Mayor Bush recommended that McIntosh get the city manager a tentative time table so everyone is kept informed. Gennell said the building height read fifty (50) feet or five stories. LeBlanc said our code only addresses height. Fifty (50) feet is referred in the comp plan. Gennell stated that there was quite a bit of desire expressed for greenways and trails at the "Visioning Project" . The county has set out a master plan; and the plan encompasses much of this area. She asked Mcintosh if it was their intention not to address that. He answered, yes, but this will be discussed later tonight more specifically. McLeod asked that the staff look into parking lot regulations. He would like to see that parking lots have greenery and landscaping. Mayor Bush stated this was covered in item 16. McLeod said to make sure 11 and 16 flow well together. Gennell asked Mcintosh how he felt about continuity of design through the whole corridor. Mcintosh said they would like to discourage guidelines that require everyone to use the same architect. The flavor of the area is going to be provided by the buffer, landscaping requirements, and restrictions. To some extent, this will be dealt with by the restrictions placed within centers by the center owners. If the commission wants to restrict this corridor further than the building codes, then the city attorney should look into it. Mayor Bush asked if any other property owners would like to speak. McIntosh said that Mr. Scrimsher had to leave, but he wanted to let everyone know that he supports the effort, and that he will be here at a later date to provide his input. McLeod stated the city has been asked to tie it together so that in the future changes don't happen. Normally, the codes are changed to better things, but this could tie future commissioners hands. Also, there should be an advantage to the developer who goes over and above the code, and spends more money to beautifY his property more. There should be a system for credit on impacts, perhaps looked into by the city manager and staff MINUTES CITY COMMISSION WORKSHOP AUGUST 28, 1995 PAGE 7 Ferring asked Grimms if he had any recommendations for the commission. Grimms said he recommended the staff compare the two proposals and send the review through the commission to the consultant, Berryman and Henigar and copies to McIntosh and Associates. Govoruhk addressed McLeod. On "P" of the August 28, 1995 agenda, the city attorney will be speaking on commercial impact and standard annexation agreement. McLeod asked if it pertained to this corridor. Govoruhk said it is for all commercial impact fee credit. Gennell asked Grimms if he said the staff will combine the two. Grimms said review the two and send the review to the consultant; the consultant would incorporate the review into his next succeeding products on the project. Gennell wanted to see it brought back as an agenda item before it goes to the consultant. It will be brought back at the October 9, 1995 Commission meeting. McLeod suggested taking photographs in the meantime. He also suggested the commission as a group with property owners ride around and look at areas. Mayor Bush suggested that someone ride around and video tape areas. Gennell said when other cities are working on their visioning process they charter a bus. We need to check with the attorney and make sure there wouldn't be any violations ofthe Sunshine law. Mayor Bush adjourned the meeting at 6:55 p.m. Respectfully Submitted, -\t\~~ Martha Jenkins, Deputy City Clerk