Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAbout1994 09 19 City Commission Workshop Minutes CITY CCMMISSION WORKSHOP SEPTEMBER 19, 1994 The meeting was called to order by Mayor Bush at 7:15 P.M. Roll Call: Mayor John F. Bush, Present City Manager John Govoruhk Deputy Mayor John V. Torcaso, Present Comrrdssioner John Ferring, Present Commissioner John Langellotti, Present Commissioner Cindy Gennell, Present Commissioner David McLeod, Absent Ranchlands Road Pavinq/Drainaqe Issue: Mayor Bush stated that the purpose of this workshop is to discuss the Ranchlands Road Paving and Drainage issue. City Manager Govoruhk said that he will turn the issue over to Terry Zaudtke, Consul ting Engineer wi th conkl in, Porter and Holmes, and Kip Lockcuff, the City's utility/Public Works Director. Zaudtke stated that with him this evening is Tom Mamnet, who put together the Stormwater Water Master Plan in the spring of this year and he assisted me with some of the evaluation on the paving and drainage issue. Zaudtke briefly went through what had been determined at the last meeting, when the preliminary study was presented and additional tasks assigned by the City Commission. Zaudtke said that the Commission wanted them to review the master drainage plan and provide a synopsis of the recommended improvements for the Ranchlands area. Based on the Master Drainage Plan the Commission wanted us to provide a recommendation for improvements for a five year period or a minimum period. What we did is we basically have given you two, a one year and a five year. The Comnission also wanted us to more fully evaluate swale drainage for the existing roadways and we have done that; and to evaluate stabilization options as an alternate to paving the roads. The last thing was to provide a written supplement, which we have given to you. Zaudtke stated that Mammet will go through the details of the report and same of the items relating to your questions. Tom Mammet, of Conklin, Porter and Holmes, stated he wi 11 start with the items fram the Master Drainage Plan and the recommendations in terms of the short and long term recommendations, as Zaudtke stated we have split it out into both a first year and a five year priority list; which is in your packet, labeled Table A. Between the two cost totals it comes up to about One Hundred and Thirty-Six Thousand, for the preliminary cost estimates. Mammet reviewed with the Comnission on a diagram the Exhibits that were in their packets to give them a general idea of what they are talking about for the minimum improvements. With the first set we have same drainage improvements involved simply trying to drain run-off away fram locally land locked areas and drain them off into existing systems. In the first City C~ssion Workshop September 19, 1994 Page 2 instance we have a location (site 1). C~ssioner Ferring asked if that was the depression level and if they have identified that as one of the main critical areas. Marrmet stated yes, that is one of the areas that is locally land locked in which it is an area where stormwater collects and puddles; the alternative improvement that we've identified is to provide same swale drainage to convey it fram the pooling area down to one of the existing lakes. Corrrnissioner Ferring asked if that was the area that borders Arnold Lane and Fisher Road and Tradewinds; he also asked how did they come to that determination on that depression level? Manmet stated yes that is the location and it was based on the contours that were provided not only with the City's topographic maps but with st. Johns River Water Management District topographic maps. Corrrni.ssioner Ferring asked Lockcuff if there has been a lot of flooding in that area, to me stoner Road, which was a very critical area, what I've witnessed on numerous occasions between stoner and Shore, they have a tremendous flooding problem in those areas. Zaudtke stated that part of the problem on stoner and Shore, is that there is a defined drainage easement that works its way through there, the problem is that it needs to be maintained. Discussion. Manmet discussed the other two sites shown on the exhibit. One located off of Williams Road and Morton Lane intersection; the other location is on the southern portion of Williams and Morton. Discussion. Marrmet said the next set of improvements on Exhibit B is where it takes into account some of the problems we have talked about on Shore Road; we have a large area in the northern portion, starting on Panama and Bahama, there is a large portion of that area that drains northward towards No Name Creek. There is a drainage pathway available but this whole area does not drain through it al though it was originally intended to work that way. What we have shown on that exhibit is simply to improve the existing drainage canal is and extend that out through the lirrdts of that drainage basin so that it provides a defined conveyance system. Included with that are same structural improvements culverts under same existing roadways. Discussion. Zaudtke stated on Table A, in the one year master plan items 4 and 5 are in your up coming budget, budgeted in that program. Items 7 and 11 in the five year major capital are programed for budgeting in 95-96, and # 19 is in that five year plan but it is towards the latter end of it. city Camrrdssion Workshop September 19, 1994 Page 3 Marnnet stated what they have done to evaluate the alternative is a swale drainage system in the Ranchlands areas, and put together some simple to follow tables which summarize our additional information that we provide here. What we have done is for each roadway is establish the drainage involved with each roadway and established same quantities in terms of what would be required for minimum stornMater treatment. At that point we also established what could be available in same roadside swales, swales being on each side of the roadway. Commissioner Ferring said with looking at Table C, you have identified Moss, Hayes, Shore, Stoner 1 Bahama, Panama, Tradewindsl Jackson Circlel Fisher Road 1 Sunrise 1 Arnold Lane, Herrel Road 1 Williams Road and Morton Lane; you have cost this out with just filling roadside swales and regrading existing roads at $915/000.00 and if there is to put some kind of substance to stabilize~ on the road either claYI shell, enzyme or whatever - another $50- 64 thousand dollars, is that basically what you have here - a million and a half dollars? Mammet stated that is correct. camrrdssioner Ferring asked how does that compare overall with minimal standards. Zaudtke stated on the minimal standards what we felt was minimum were the items we have just given you; do those drainage improvements that you have therel then continue to maintain the roads the way you have been doing it now with grading periodically in the area and then going in there and trying to keep the roads in a passable condition. The next step would be to jUl'Ti> up in what we have in Table C1 which would be to build up the roads with a crown 1 if you are to go to that level you are looking at that most of the cost is in the construction of re-working the roads. But 1 you are looking at about a million and a half dollars to do all the roads in the Ranchlands. Discussion. Zaudtke said if st. John's came along and said that they consider that to be the same thing as a paving project, then you need to add the one million in there for retention ponds - additional land acquisition. If you were to make the decision to up to pavingl the paving isn't going to be that much more cost; because at that point you have done most of the work and most of the cost and the paving would be the cost of putting the material down on the ground. Discussion. Cammissioner Ferring said that he had a copy of the survey that was sent out to the Ranchlands. He mentioned that the survey was a little dated and he doesn't know if much has changed but on the survey it states that 248 votes were received with the following results: 176 or 71% voted that they did not want these roads paved; 64 or 25.8% voted that they did want it; the overwhelming body at that time was opposed to paving the Ranchlands. A further breakdown on the properties south of Tradewinds in Section 1-A- that was a 56/41 vote percentage wise; so I don't know if we are talking City C~ssion Workshop September 19, 1994 Page 4 about paving at this particular point, we are maintenance that will relieve the people over conditions that they are incurring at this point. just talking about minimal there from the flooding Zaudtke explained in more detail to give the C~ssion that information. He stated that when you are talking about taking care of areas that are just problems for drainage, you are talking about the southern portion of the Ranchlands - the areas south of Tradewinds. Fisher Road may end up being improved by some other entity or may be improved as a corridor for the City some day. What you are looking at here would be to possibly just break out the southern area and do the improvements. We are not talking about drainage problems in terms of back-ups, we are talking about drainage problems because the roads are in this condition of being more like a "fish bowl" and the water does not have the ability to travel away while there is traffic on it. Mayor Bush asked Lockcuff about the memo he sent to Mr. Govoruhk stating the estimated cost of grading the 8 miles of dirt roads in the Ranchlands is about $22,500.00 per year and it would cost two and a half million to pave it. Zaudtke said no, if you had to do the drainage improvements it would cost two and a half million and that wouldn't include the asphalt wearing course on top of it, it would be everything else would be there in place. Zaudtke said what you are looking at around a million and a half dollars to take all the roads re-stabilize them and re-grade them. Mayor Bush asked Lockcuff if that cost of maintenance of the roads. were done would that reduce the annual Lockcuff stated yes it would. C~ssioner Langellotti asked what the property owners in the Ranchlands are getting for the stormwater maintenance fee that they pay. Zaudtke said they are getting maintenance of the roads, most of the stormwater program is set up to generate funds to do the capital items such as the upcoming budget year for the drainage improvements in that area. Discussion. C~ssioner Langellotti asked Zaudtke if he has done any type of study regarding rebuilding the roads with enzymes or things like that. Zaudtke said we have looked at that but there is still some regrading that needs to be done to get the road back to a condition where the water is not sitting on it. Zaudtke said the only thing that concerns him about using enzymes is there is a three day curing period and said he doesn't know how they would work that in at this point because they are traveled roads - people live there. Discussion. There was also discussion regarding money available from st. John's River Water Management District. Zaudtke said that S.J.R.W.M.D. has said that there is no funds available to help with localized drainage problems. Discussion. City Camrrdssion Workshop September 19, 1994 Page 5 Zaudtke stated that he has given S.J.R.W.M.D. with a copy of the stormwater master plan and a cover letter and has not gotten a response. Mayor Bush asked the City Manager to follow up on that and see why they have not responded. Mayor Bush said that the survey Camrrdssioner Ferring was referring to was done in 1988, obviously there is some interest in this from the people that are present tonight, is this something we should do again to get an up date on how the people in the Ranchlands feel about the paving issue/ C~ssioner Ferring said if we do that then he feels that the people in the Ranchlands what the cost factors would be in respect to the paving. Carl Stephens, President of the Ranchlands Homeowners Association, stated that the City sent the survey to the residents, before that there was a petition circulated by some residents so the City circulated that survey as a result of a preliminary study. Since that survey was done by the City, some residents in the area circulated another survey just in interest of a study and that is where the $50,000 year after year was set aside because of that, just interest in a study. Mayor Bush asked if the survey was representative of maybe the was people think. today. Stephens said that he could not answer that because being the President of the Homeowners Association and they are a neutral in this issue so he will not say, if the City would like to know I would suggest send out a survey with the cost. C~ssioner Gennell said that either in the surveyor before we do it look at the feasibility of separating fram the north half, and look at paving if not all of it, part of it - the part where they most dearly want it paved and not paving the part where they don't want it paid. Mayor Bush stated to the C~ssion if we might ask the City Manager to work with the Homeowner Association on this to see if there is interest on behalf of the citizens of the Ranchlands if a survey should be taken and also the point that the camrrdssioner just brought up about the different areas because I'm sure people have different opinions. Discussion. C~ssioner Ferring said if there is no crying need for the paving I don't see why it has to be pursued unless there is a desire by the residents of the Ranchlands overall I haven't seen a onslaught of people saying to pave; I think. they like their country atmosphere and I think. they are entitled to it. Mayor Bush said there is a lot of people here tonight and they have an interest in this one way or another, that was his only thought on this. Commissioner Gennell said if we did separate the two areas and it turned out that there was 70 or 80 percent in the one area that did want it and 90 percent in the other area that didn't want it, that would be one of the City Camrrdssion Workshop September 19, 1994 Page 6 reasons for separating them out or considering them separately. Mayor Bush said why don't we let the City Manager work with the homeowners and find out it that is what they really want. Mayor Bush said to Mr. Govoruhk. to look into that and get back with the Corrrnission. Discussion. Mayor Bush asked if you have to put the cost factor in, how would it be designated on how much the homeowner would pay and how much the City would pay towards the cost of the paving. Lockcuff said that with checking surrounding Cities and they pay 50/50. Discussion. cOrrnUssioner Ferring asked Lockcuff what was he recommending at this point to start off with. Lockcuff said that his intent here was to segregate the paving and drainage to allow us to proceed with the drainage. I don't know that anybody would object to drainage improvements, this gives us a little more background on the stormwater master plan with a little more detail so that we can proceed with doing some of those improvements. Discussion. Mayor Bush said to Lockcuff was that his recorrmendation then would be that swales need to be put into these roads, the drainage needs to be improved or corrected regardless of whether things are paved or not paved. Lockcuff agreed. Discussion on funding. Mayor Bush stated that he thinks Lockcuff' s recorrmendation to the City Manager and bring this back before the COrrnUssion would be the right thing to do; he said that he senses that the Corrrnission agrees that the control of the stormwater and the swales is something that ought to be considered. <7 ,The was discussion on the cost. Zaudtke said that some of the items that are in the packet are based on contractor type prices, we have not looked at it from the standpoint of the City doing any of the work in the regrading process taking care of some of the grading over a period of time. The prices are averages taken from subdivision costs for this type of work. Zaudtke said if you did the roadside swales and clay stabilization it would be about $33.50 per lineal foot, and if you included paving with that it would be about $62.50 per lineal foot. Discussion. Mayor Bush said maybe what we should do is have Lockcuff work with the City Manager to prioritize this information as well as identify the funding sources and then bring that back before the Corrmissioners same alternatives. cOrrnUssioner Gennell said that she would like to ask that the City Manager brings this back at the next meeting. Manager Govoruhk. stated that he would need at least 30 days or more. Discussion. It was determined that this be brought back before the Corrmission at the October 24, 1994 meeting. Corrmissioner Torcaso stated that what he is most interested in at the present time is the recorrmended minimum improvements. It seems to me that ~ ~ City C~ssion Workshop September 19, 1994 Page 7 this is really necessary and later on the paving and drainage, but we have a recornnended a minimum improvements that we should taking care of, it is outlined here in Exhibits A & B and it seems to me that the City should go ahead and go with this recornnendation by our consulting engineers. '/ ( Mayor Bush said one of the things he would like to make sure is included when Lockcuff and the City Manager work on this is how much money the City will save on the road grading if this other work is done, whether it is the minimum or something in between. Camrrdssioner Ferring said to the residents of the Ranchlands that were present is that the C~ssion is trying to do what they can immediately to alleviate the flooding problems and then give everyone an option on the other areas which will subsequently come to them. Mayor Bush said that there have been some citizens who have recornnended ? different substances to build roads out of would like this made clear whether it will or will not work even if it is something that is or is not considered because some people think that it should be; there seems to be some question to whether sand would support this kind of construction. Discussion. Manager Govoruhk said that going back a couple of years with what you are referring to and we checked with the County on bringing in different soils and mixture - there were several companies that did offer to give a road test anywhere fram a mile even possibly as much as two miles to check into it. There are new products in the last two years that have come out that is going to the mid-west - I will get with Zaudtke with that, but we have been looking at that. The meeting adjourned at 8:05 p.m. Respectfully Subrrdtted, ~~ Margo Hopkins Deputy City Clerk