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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1994 05 03 City Commission Workshop Minutes .' . . . . WORKSHOP MEET J NG CITY c:x:M'11 SS ION CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS MAY 3, 1994 The meeting was called to order by Mayor John F. Bush at 3:10 P.M. Mayor John F. Bush, Present John Govoruhk, City Manager Deputy Mayor John V. Torcaso, Present Commissioner John Ferring, Present Commissioner John Langel lotti, Present Commissioner Cindy Gennell, Present Commissioner David McLeod, Present Widening of State Road 434 from State Road 419 to Expressway - Department of Transportation Presentation: City Manager Govoruhk said that George Pappas, Project Manager, Department of Transportation and Mr. Anderson from the Transportation Consulting Group for the Department of Transportation. Commissioner Langellotti said to Mr. Anderson that about a year and a half to two years ago the State widened S.R. 434 from the curve down to the beltway two feet on each side, I understand at a cost of a million four, what was the purpose of that. Anderson said it was out side his project but he said that he imagines it was safety improvements at the time; and that he can't really address that very well. Commissioner Langellotti said that he seems to recall at a meeting the Commission had at that time regarding the curve, that it was in order to meet the width to specifications for State or Federal funding, I wonder if that came into the picture in the future cost of this widening. Anderson said that he wouldn't know that but that he knows those lanes are probably under 12 feet wide at the time, and due to the added traffic and the interim between the four laning, which we are here for... Mayor Bush asked Anderson .if he has had an opportunity to look over the sheet here... Anderson said that he just saw it now. Mayor Bush said that the Commissioners have had a opportunity to briefly review this sheet. These are sane of the items that have cane up from time to time so we have them on one page and there could be others so this isn't inclusive of all the things we want to ask today but it does have sane of the items that we have talked about. Can you address any of those starting with item 1. Anderson said that he will go through the list, but Mr. Pappas is here now and can answer the questions. Mayor Bush asked Pappas to give the Commission an overview and maybe sane of the questions will be answered in the overview. George Pappas, project manager, Department of Transportation said that as you know this stretch of 434 will be the first to be constructed from the intersection of S.R. 419 to just beyond Tuscawilla Road, and it will include the intersection improvements. It is a four lane urban style roadway convertible to 6 lanes. It will have a grassy median, it will have median Workshop Meeting City Carrnission May 3, 1994 Page 2 . openings at various points, those have been planned a long time ago, we have done the access management study to locate them to the best positions, the best locations. Mr. Anderson who represents the Transportation Consulting Group as you know, will be doing the updating of the plans, they are at a 100% level, there will be some minor changes during the up date process, it will go for about 5-6 months. We schedule to have this job production ready in November, looking to mail the plans to Tallahassee on December 19th, looking at construction letting in February or March and then construction about May. So approximately one year from now the roadway should be under construction. Commissioner Gennell asked for how long. Pappas said he doesn't have the formal estimate done yet, my best guess would be about 18 months. We will have the formal estimate prepared in the next 2-3 months. Commissioner Langellotti asked Pappas if it was also planned that they were going to go from the beltway to Tuscawilla first. Pappas said that at one time it showed in their schedule as that section being first, it was really never official that he later learned. In fact we had our sequence done that way, as far as the plans, and that is one reason we are add i ng the . Tuscawilla intersection to TOG's portion to make sure we get the intersection in. A decision was made by others to do this section first. Commissioner Gennell said that about 4 years ago we had you all cane in to the BOWS Board when I was on it, it wasn't either of you two gentlemen but it was a fellow with your Department and brought the plans and we asked for a bike path and so forth and they ended up as a result of that adding another sidewalk on the south side and my question to you is - is there any possibility for widening that sidewalk or adding to that to make a bike or jogging path on the side of it. Pappas said that with the current right-of- way we have and what we are und!!rway of acquiring that are occurring right now, there is not enough road right-of-way to widen that sidewalk, there are two five foot sidewalks and it follows the right-of-way, as you know there is,the railroad on the north side, on the south side you have wetlands and we paid dearly to acquire some of the wetlands and had to mitigate and quite a few acres were involved to mitigate for that so what we have currently in the road right-of-way there is no room to widen that beyond five feet. Commissioner Gennell asked were did they mitigate to. Pappas said there is property on the north side of Lake Jesup that we are presently preparing plans. Ccmnissioner Gennell asked if it was done. Pappas said we are at a point where we have purchased the amount of acreage and so it is well on its way, but we are not in a position, I mean I can't, to be able to change the maps would be a serious delay on the project. Commissioner Gennell said that she understands that but to the other issue of mitigation, I'm opposed . to us having land mitigated from Winter Springs and then put in the County or in Sanford or something when we've got plenty of conservation lands here that would be available for mitigation. Pappas said that we have worked on .~ f17"~\;~li;!l;'l'i'~~r~ '-~~..> 'w;, )<~>>(~~:'l:.J;TJ;,~: ~ Workshop Meeting City Carmission May 3, 1994 Page 3 that with st. John's Water Management District to some degree, it has to be land that they wish to have, I wasn't directly involved in that aspect in the project; we have people in our environmental section that have dealt with the mitigation aspects. ~ Commissioner Gennell said that she understands that but that property is caming through in the incorporated of the City and you are taking land away mitigating it, but you are mitigating it into Sanford or Seminole County and if you are dealing with st. John's Water Management District, we can contact them to, but I would like to see, I mean several hundred acres they already did that with with the expressway wherever they buy the mitigated land and our coral money was earmarked, the south side of Lake Jesup was one of the desirable areas for mitigation and I don't like the money going and property going out of Winter Springs to somewhere else. If it's our property, if you buy it somewhere else and you mitigate it somewhere else I don't care but here I'd like to see us benefit fram the conservation value of the land that is being mitigated. Now, it is my understanding, I had heard that DOT is interested in purchasing the right-of-way when CSX abandons it. Pappas said he is not familiar with that. Commissioner McLeod said that the agenda we have in front of us, he thinks he would like to go back and give the gentlemen an opportunity to answer one question at a time. Mayor Bush said that is not really an agenda. Commissioner McLeod said that he understands where it is from but I have read through it and I think it outlines a lot of questions that is individually being asked here. Mayor Bush said what we asked Mr. Pappas to do is give us an overview and then we would go to the questions. Pappas said that he is done with his overview. ~ Mayor Bush said that he has a question and Commissioner Gennell has cannented about the bike path, you mentioned that this is four lane convertible to 6 lanes so evidentialy you can build six lanes of highway but you can't put in a bike path. Pappas said the six laning is based on traffic studies ...Mayor Bush said that there must be room for six lanes, and you are only building four. Pappas said that the extra roam is, we have a 46 foot median under the four lane scenario, the fifth and sixth lane would be built into the median area, to the inside and that would reduce it to the standard 25 foot, so that is where the extra room is. Mayor Bush said that he thinks that the reality is that we have a park up here off of 434 that you can't ride your bike to, you have to have a car to get there practically and I think Commissioner Gennell's comments about a bike path would be something that the citizens, certinaly the children could benefit fram that. Pappas said that he failed to mention that you could look at the plans, we are providing an extra wide outside lane that is 14 feet instead of the standard 12', that is for bicycle accommodation. You can ride a bicycle on the outside lane, you have an extra 2' of asphaltic pavement Workshop Meeting City Camlission May 3, 1994 Page 4 . which can accommodate a bicycle. Camlissioner McLeod said 8 year old children? Pappas said well. Camlissioner McLeod said that he didn't think so, adults - they are all right to gamble, that is up to them, they are adults, but we are talking about the children of Winter Springs. Commissioner Ferr;ng said he wanted to echo Commiss;oner McLeod's - we have same questions that have came up in the past that were put together and if we take them one at a time and you can answer these questions, it might answer a lot of the questions in advance and then we can ask any other questions after that, I think it addresses same of the questions that we're working on right now. Commissioner Torcaso asked if we are just talking about 434, we are not doing 419 from 17-92. Pappas said no. Commissioner Torcaso said just starting at the junction of 434 and 419. Pappas said that is correct. Mayor Bush asked Pappas to proceed down the list. Pappas: #1. Will the project be done in phases? Answer: No it will be done in one - if I understand the question the section from 419 to . Tuscawil1a will be the first section, the next section will be from that point just beyond Tuscawilla to the beltway, that is scheduled I believe in 96-97 project. Commissioner Ferring said that is two phases then. Pappas said if you mean phases from 419 to the beltway then that is two phases. Pappas said he believes he has answered #2. (When is start up time? tentative comPletion time?) Commissioner Ferring asked Pappas to repeat the answer. Pappas said that we are looking to begin construction approximately in May of 95, I've estimated it at 18 months but we'll have an accurate schedule estimate shortly, I can be contacted ~lso if you need to have more of that information. Mayor Bush said so the second phase will start in 97. Pappas said 96-97, DOT fiscal year. Cam1issioner McLeod asked how long is that phase. Pappas said he would put that at 24 months roughly. Commissioner McLeod said the second phase is going to take longer than the first phase - isn't that a much shorter distance that we are traveling. Pappas said that it is about an equal distance but you have a 400' long bridge over Howell Creek so I'm allowing more time for the bridge. Pappas: #3. Can we be provided latest engineering plans? Answer: Yes you can be provided the latest engineering plans, Transportation Consulting Group as I said will be up dating them looking to complete it in 5 months approx imate 1 y . We have a 100% subni tta 1 plans current 1 y and they are avai lab1e. Pappas: #4. Do you have in writing absolute assurances that csx will abandon the section of track listed as probable in 3 years? Answer: I rea 11 y don't know about the abandonment of CSX. . ~,~~~:{;~~~'.I"".." " :1'~~~;;:;~;- . Workshop Meeting City Cannission May 3, 1994 Page 5 , . Cannissioner McLeod asked if we could go back to #3. Would you, you are saying yes they are available and it sounds to me that yes if we came after those plans, is that correct? Would you not mind providing the city Manager with at least one set of the completed plans for the City of Winter Springs. Mr. Anderson said right here we have a set of the plan profiles typical section, a partial set, if that's all you need, you can have these right here, what is not included in here is the cross sections and traffic plans things like that. I brought these just for discussion purposes you are we1ccme to have those at this time. Carrnissioner McLeod said that he would appreciate if Anderson could leave those with the City Manager if you wouldn't mind. Anderson said no. Commissioner Gennell asked Anderson if he said those were typical or are those specific to this roadway. Anderson said they are specific to this roadway; the plans will be done in the fall. Commissioner McLeod asked would we then get an up dated set of plans at that time, or would you mind doing that for us. Pappas said that he would be happy to send the City an up dated set of plans. . Pappas: #5. If not, if they don't will it delay projection any way? Answer: The CSX railway right-of-way will not affect this project, there is nothing there that would affect our job. Pappas: #6. Will we be able to getftraffic signals for City Hall and Seminole Pines? Answer: That was discussed a length that dates back probably better than a year and the City Engineer approached us for a signal, our traffic operations studied the situation they look at the usage the spacing between signals, between the other accesses to the road, which really doesn't have a lot to do with signals; they do look at your traffic counts and -the conclusion was that it wasn't warranted, so we therefore did not include a traffic signal for that entrance road. . Commissioner Ferring said in due respect Mr. Pappas, the people that did your studies need only to look 'at the same thing we see every day with the traffic on S.R. 434 and the risk that people are taking coming out of City Hall trying to go in a westerly direction or the people coming out of the Post Office or Seminole Pines, which is a viable community. They are literally taking their life in their hands every time they have to go across these roads. So I would please ask you to reconsider and revalue that part i cu 1 ar area because it is of extreme irrportance to the peop 1 e in th i s area. Pappas said that he can ask their traffic operations unit to look at it again, I'd be happy to do that. Commissioner McLeod said that if they can look at it from around 5:00 to 6:00 from this parking lot would probably he 1 p . Mayor Bush asked when was the 1 ast time th i s was eva 1 uated, was that 2 years ago. Pappas said that it was from one to two years ago. Mayor Bush said he thinks it would be time to do that again. Commissioner McLeod said it is very difficult at present time this being a two lane and I can see it at a four land and I can see it as a six lane it would be an impossibility Workshop Meeting city Cannission May 3, 1994 Page 6 and especially the residents over here at Seminole Pines they are going to have a very difficult time trying to come across this highway, we would appreciate that. Pappas said ok. Pappas: #7. Will sidewalks be provided along the whole corridor? Answer: The answer is yes on both sides, our standard 5' width concrete sidewalks, it will be continuous. Cannissioner Gennell asked if it was true on the second phase also. Pappas said yes it will be. Pappas: #8. What type of buffering will DOT provide along the corridor? Answer: There is no buffering, I don't think there is anything I could call buffering there really isn't any. Commissioner Ferring said so what you are saying is that wherever you are going to be going in and widening if there is no buffering at this particular point, you don't plan to put any in those areas. Pappas said there is nothing planned along with this particular construction project. Cannissioner Ferring asked if it has ever been considered. Pappas said buffering for what reason. Commissioner Ferring said just for aesthetic value. Pappas said no, the only buffering, that would take place during the study phase and I know they take into consideration noise..Commissioner Ferring said noise, safety, pollution....Pappas said I don't know if there is aesthetics really considered, I myself don't get involved with aesthetics. Cannissioner Ferring said basically you have aesthetics, you have pollution, you have noise and you have health and safety, you know, where children could possibly walk right out into the roadway where there are open stretches of land at different particular points and it could be indeed a very hazardous situation, so I think something should be done to consider wherever you are going to be doing this, we have some kind of provisions, at least thought about or discussed. Pappas said again that usually takes place during the study, this is something that wasn't addressed until now, I'm not sure how we could provide any buffers.- COmmissioner Ferrlng said you have a S' sidewalk and then you have an open lot right behind the S' sidewalk that is unoccupied or any thing else like that at the present time, it could pose a potential risk and I just want to know if there was any consideration done in that area. Pappas stated no not to his knowledge, there weren't any. Commissioner Torcaso asked about the traffic light coming out of the new project down there, where there is going to be 400 homes going in. Pappas asked what entrance is that. Commissioner Ferring said Winding Hollow...Commissioner Torcaso said right down there on 434...Commissioner Ferring said the old Eagle Ridge, Winding Hollow project. Pappas said your question about the entrance is? Commissioner Torcaso said there is going to be a traffic light put there... Pappas said that he didn't have any knowledge of a traffic signal being installed there, I have not seen it come through in a penmit; I saw the penmit application for the driveway connection and I did not see a traffic signal being planned. Commissioner Ferring said that he thinks when that plan came before the City for approval in the submission of the plans there was provision whether it be by the owners of the property, who at that time were a different operation than they are today, that indeed a traffic signal would be put up . . . ~ Workshop Meeting City Carrnission May 3, 1994 Page 7 . . ~\ \ ~ ~ and there should have been communications between the developer of that project and DOT. city Manager Govoruhk stated that in Mr. Pappas defense, I was involved in that in the beginning and there is an agreement with DOT, with the people, with the City that if and when needed they will be required to put it up and they, the builder, would spend the money for it when needed. There is a written agreement by DOT. Pappas said ok. Manager Govoruhk said that he would have to go back in the files and look for it but we signed it, you (DOT) signed it and they are aware of it. Mayor Bush asked who decides when it's needed. Manager Govoruhk said at that time that being it's DOT would have to make that decision. Mayor Bush said that would be based on the traffic studies that you refereed to earlier. Mr. Anderson said that traffic operation monitors the needs for signals and when they make the signal warrant and they evaluate the intersection and make that detenmination. Commissioner McLeod asked the City Manager wasn't there money set aside for that signal by the developer and wasn't that signal maybe not required in phase 1 or 2 but by the time it got to phase 3 the signal then would be a requirement. Manager Govoruhk said that is his understanding, like he said before, he would have to go back in the files but the money to his knowledge was not set aside but there is an agreement that we the City have made with builders and developers, what we nonmally did was get the money up front, but I'm not sure how DOT did it if they got the money up front or the written agreement that they will be responsible and the builder/developer will have to spend the money when needed. Commissioner McLeod said that he would like to have us re-research that if you would and give this ccmnission an up date on that, because my problem is the builder gets done through phase 3 - he's out of there, where does it fall on, and I think it was the P&Z Board's request, "and ('m not sure if it was ever passed by the Comm;ssion.~.. Cannissioner Langellotti said yes it was....Carrnissioner McLeod -,but "that the monies be set aside for that and I think it was through us with DOT, so (to the City Manager) would one of your members of staff check on that for us. Manager Govoruhk said yes he will, and that is the reason he is not sure if the money, because that was DOT responsibility. Commissioner McLeod stated whatever the result is, because I think this Commission may want to review that. Mayor Bush stated to the City Manager that maybe he could have that infonmation at the next Cannission meeting and if he can't let the Cannission know if it will be the one after that. Manager Govoruhk said yes. Pappas: #9. What about the median? Will it be build along the whole corridor? Answer: the answer is yes, it will be built along the whole corridor, as I mentioned earlier, it's a 46' grassy median. Commissioner Ferring asked if that was for both phases. Pappas stated that is correct. Cannissioner McLeod said you are saying grass medians does this median have any trees that will be in the middle of it for shading factors. Pappas stated no, the only thing we planned is to be solid sodding. Commissioner McLeod said that we are in a City that we call the "tree city" and we are Workshop Meeting City Carrnission May 3, 1994 Page 8 . going to take 46' in the center, you know 22' is wide enough but now we are talking 46' that is all grass I would like it if at least get with our Staff and discuss that , something, in other words there probably no kind of irrigation then in the center of this thing either. Pappas said normally we put in if there is landscaping, normally a City would approach us and ask that we go with a joint project agreement to put in irrigation piping...Commissioner McLeod said that he thinks that the City would probably be more than happy to give you our waste water to pump down the center of this median, we have it, we have it available, we are looking for more places to put it and it would see that with trees or shrubs or something and it doesn't seem that just 46' feet of grass space is doing the City a just means by the DOT as you are passing through the center, I mean this is the heart of the City, it's not an outskirt of the City. Mayor Bush said that is really item #12 on the list here and I think it is a good point so why don't we hold off until we get to 12 on that and talk about that some more. Commissioner Torcaso said the 46' will give us room for a bicycle path. Pappas: #10. How wide will the median be? How do you calculate where you make your cuts for our future growth and development plans? Answer: The . median wi 11 be 46 feet. We have an access management review and it's done by our traffic operations department, they evaluate the whole area, the look at all the cross roads, we put in the cuts at the required spacing to the best of our knowledge. We've had same input fram various land developers, we have worked with them, we have a rule that governs the minimum distance between median openings, it also specifies where you can have the full opening vs. a directional. Directional is the type that has a peanut or an island that prevents left turn movements, there will be both types on this project. It is based on the classification of roadway and if I remember correctly, full openings are. a quarter mile on this job and the peanuts/directional openings are half that distance. But the decision as to where they are located was worked out as I said earlier between our traffic operations people plus the requests that we have had over the past two years fram the various land developers and current property owners. Commissioner McLeod asked what are they showing on their plans for the openings here at City Hall and at Seminole Pines right here. Pappas said that of course it is a full opening....Commissioner McLeod went and looked at the plans. Pappas said that there will be 92' of clear opening. Commissioner McLeod said roughly you will be able to pull two cars out in the center of that at a time to set and wait to cane out. Discussion (can't make out what they are talking about)....Seminole Pines will have to came out and get into the stack lane and came across to make a left turn. Carrnissioner McLeod said then when the road goes to 6 lanes and even at 4 lanes there will be 200' they have got to cane out of there and try to get to the other side to go back left. Pappas said that is correct. Carrnissioner McLeod said that it . sounds like excelleration and brakes to me. Pappas said what they will have to do is wait for both lanes to have an opening....Carrnissioner McLeod said with no traffic signals along this area. Pappas said that is correct. . . . ,r.,';~ ..-s'~1i.:. "",,'''I" ' :,,'~; ~- -. Wo~kshop Meeting City Carmission May 3, 1994 Page 9 .. Carmissioner Ferring said that is the reason why we are having this workshop Mr. Pappas so we can carrnunicate with each other what we feel as a Commission has been some of the sticking points that we have to go by day by day, certainly we hope that, so far it has been productive and educational for all of us and our staff is prepared, and I think our City Manager has got his Staff keyed to work with the Department of Transportation at any level necessary and hopefully we can go into this on a very happy venture between both of us. Mayor Bush. said that you mentioned in your presentation that you met with developers on these cuts, what developers did you meet with. Pappas said that the people fram the Eagle Ridge subdivision, they contacted me and I think it was a different owner than it is presentlYi this was early on in the project and the owner of the antique shop had their Attorney contact me with regard to locating the directional opening to make left turns, it was an existing business so we gave that more consideration. We provided a means to left turning into his driveway. Commissioner Ferring said there is no longer going to be there they are leaving. Pappas said that the last time the Attorney wrote to me and said they were going to relocate it back and that is where we left it, now it's been a few months. Commissioner Ferring said we see a sign out there that says they are moving to Geneva. Commissioner Genne1l stated that before we tell him for sure they are not going to be there maybe we better make sure that they are not going to temporally locate in Geneva and then come back here when the road is finished if they own that property. Commissioner Ferring said that is something that should be looked into. Commissioner McLeod asked what is the probability of taking a look at this stretch of the highway again with our City Staff, I mean if you really look at that the poor people over here at Seminole Pines any how, and also our own City personnel can get in and out a little more easy; in both direction of Seminole Pines you are talking about a single business that you put a cut to allow people occasionally came into their business, you have a whole community sitting across the street and you don't have the first cut in that highway to access those people; and I know you've got so much distance between cuts but there is a possibility in even relocating their entrance or the City's entrance to realign the two entrances with the provisions of perhaps a stop light and I would appreciate it if you give the opportunity to our Staff to review that with you within the next couple months before the five month period goes and it becomes cast in stone. I think you have real poor circulation pattern right there and I haven't looked at the rest of the highway but that one is not necessarily in the best interest of the people that live here; maybe for the traffic flow through the City but we would like some of the people to stay here. Anderson speaking can't hear most of what he is saying.....1 believe there is a parcel owned by Seminole County a vacated street of same sort that would be right about where you'd be lining this up so it's not all Seminole Pines property so there will be another player involved. Commissioner McLeod said that is fine, maybe we need to just get all the players together because..again I just request that our City Staff and you people get Workshop Meeting City Ccrrmission May 3, 1994 Page 10 .; . together and allow our City staff to have input on this and hopefully they can work something out with you and who ever the other players are to make it much better routing pattern for both parties, that is all I'm asking. Pappas stated that about a year ago, I just want to add to that, a representative from Seminole Pines met with me at my office and we went over the maps and the plans and he talked to me about lining up! rearranging the internal network to have a new entrance lining up with the current City Hall driveway and I said that would be a good idea but they would have to develop a plan and upon having a plan we could relocate the paved entrance way, we could move that on the plans.....Ccrrmissioner McLeod said that he believes our city Staff,can get with those people along with yourself and see what they can work oLtt and it'the peop'le at Seminole Pines decide they don't want to, I would like our City Staff to have the opportunity to approach them and bring the information to both yourself and this City Ccrrmission. i. Ccrrmissioner Torcaso said to McLeod that as far as he know with talking with the City Manager here in the last few months that he has already discussed that with Seminole Pines and with DOT people and what I understood it was agreeable for them to cut across to match our entrance to City Hall. Ccrrmissioner McLeod said that may be but mine is to ask Staff to work with DOT and came back to the Ccrrm;ssion, he may have told you as a Ccrrm;ss;oner, I have not heard that as a joint Ccrrmission. Commissioner Torcaso said I think that is what they are doing and we haven't got a report from that yet. Mayor Bush said Ccrrmissioner Langellotti has a comment and then we will go to the City Manager who maybe can .... . Commiss;oner Langellotti asked Mr. Pappas about the curve, how much further south will that curve be, because I understand that curve there is the terrporary curve. Pappas said that is correct, the curve is terrporary and we are going to" increase "the radius of the road considerably, you are welcame to come up and we can discuss too" and we can discussing detail but it's going to be a curve flattened to the point where we can maintain the speed limit, there won't be' a speed reduction. And we are going to have a connecting road to the old pavement, the current pavement will have to stay there since it serves both the park and the future connection to the high school. I've been approached by the high school people at one point to discuss...Commissioner Langellotti asked Pappas if he has discussed everything with Florida Power and the telephone company about relocating the lines - you know we ran into a problem when they relocated this. Pappas stated that is part of their plans all utility relocations will be done as part of the construction project, that's been finalized. Commissioner Langellotti said that was a big delay with this project when they went...Pappas said it won't be on this one. Manager Govoruhk said on Seminole Pines, Mr. McLeod you haven't have the opportunity but we've been working with them for well over a year or I have personally and with George Pappas he is correct, and even as late as two week ago with Seminole Pines the problem is the property owner is currently . . , . . ~ . . :.. .' . '.:',!~J -'~,~;.":! ,'r!;1Y,l!""~.", 'i!< r-J" "'"'~~tr';':l.~/ ~:':: Workshop Meeting City Cannission May 3, 1994 Page 11 refusing to move their current roadway cut over. If they would move it over to our cut which Mr. Pappas again in your defense, we've been working real good ever since I've been over here on it. The people over there have written letters, called the property owners and we have gave the interest, we the City, said we would abandon the roadway across providing they move theirs and abandon the other roadway, which DOT wants, and Seminole Pines wants, we are at a stale mate with the property owners refusing to move the roadway over is why we have not cane back to Council to ask to abandon that section of the roadway. Cannissioner McLeod asked are we talking the property owners of SeminoJe PiA~s or the a~jacent property. Manger Govoruhk stated the property owners of Seminole Pines. Commissioner McLeod said are we also talking alignment in alig~nt of our main entrance at present time. Manager Govoruhk said with our current main entrance, yes sir. Commissioner McLeod said so fram what we see on these set 6fplans if the County proceeds the way they intend at the present time then Seminole Pines could at a later date after finding out the confusion they have could realign their road to come into the center of this intersection. Manager Govoruhk said correct and that's what we are working on. right now as of just two weeks ago, and if I may, here again on the curve that Mr. Langellotti brought up, the City had to spend the money to correct that curve but there is property there that the City does not own that more or less we lease and we are going to have to turn that back over to the property owner once 434 is widened out which that roadway becanes a service road, is that correct. Pappas said essentially. Manager Govoruhk said so we lost a bundle of money putting that roadway in. Commissioner Langellotti said I know that, I wish the State would reimburse us in sane way. Manager Govoruhk said we've tried since I've been here.... Commissioner Gennell wanted to know if Seminole Pines is that a developer there or is that the Haneowner Association that doesn't want to...Manager Govoruhk said that is the owner of the property and they are out'of State. Commissioner Gennell wanted to know if the owners objection was financial. Manager Govoruhk said they have told Seminole Pines if the people that are living there would like to the money together and build it they would not object to it. Commissioner McLeod stated that he believes that if we made the attempts as the City and DOT to work this out and then the owner of the property refuses to do that then I think we've done our part, I think the only thing is is that as long at later that there is the option to cane back into that stretch of the road. Manager Govoruhk said that we have talked about that if in two or three years down the road if they cane back in and the City is still willing to bend their section, they put it in fram what J understand DOT would allow that road cut as long as the other one was abandoned. Mayor Bush said that on this one issue I think the Commission is pretty clear that we should keep working with the property owner to see if something can be worked out and as Commissioner Mcleod mentioned maybe we the Commission needs to contact the property owner through the City Manager and ask for this and hope for some cooperation with them. Commissioner McLeod asked if anyone has an idea of a dollar figure that you are talking for the realignment. Pappas said he wouldn't know at the top of his head Workshop Meeting City Cannission May 3, 1994 Page 12 . and that he wouldn't want to estimate that. Mayor Bush asked the City Manager if the City Engineer could make an estimate at a later time to respond to Cannissioner McLeod's question. Manager Govoruhk said yes we can do that at a later date. Pappas: #11. What are the contemplated speed limits? Will it remain constant through the whole corridor? Answer: The speed limit will be posted at 45 which is a maximum for a curb and gutter section urban style roadway and yes it will remain constant through the whole corridor. Cannissioner Gennell said that is the maximum can you do 35? Pappas said for this class of roadway it is a 45 mph design speed and it's a class 3 principal arterial and 45 is the appropriate speed limit for a road like this; not to say that you couldn't do a speed study and change the speed limits, of course if it's warranted the 85th percentile guideline then not to say it couldn't be lowered. Mayor Bush said with the school traffic coming on this road, will there be a school speed zone, with the high school kids driving to school it will put a lot of traffic out there on that road between 7:00 and 7:30 and 2:30 to 3:00. Pappas said we could look at that as the conditions warrant it, the connections to my knowledge is off of . Tuscawilla or Brantley and the curve where they will have a connecting road. I haven't seen the out come that is being studied right now. Mayor Bush said if the speed limit be lowered just to accommodate that type of traffic who decides that. Pappas said the DOT would run a speed survey to see if it warranted reducing speed limits at that time. Mayor Bush said so DOT is aware of a high school going in there and there is the possibility of additional traffic beyond your current studies, has that been factored in. Pappas said that he really can't answer that he hasn't gotten that detailed in the actual count. I know the school plan came up fairly recently and I don't know if that was factored into the study. We looked at the area as a whole as it develops and future projections are made I can't honestly say if a high school was considered. Mayor Bush asked if Pappas was the person to not i fy DOT or do we not i fy saneone else. Pappas sa i d that there is another unit that deals with the ....Mayor Bush asked if Pappas could let the City Manager know that so the City can take the steps to let them know the high school is going to be built. Commissioner Gennell asked what developments/what criteria would cause you to lower the speed limit on that yourselves. Pappas said to be honest with you he doesn't get into that area so he can't really say, there are other people that deal with that. Commissioner Gennell said if the City decided that they were going to be developing that corridor and wanted to invite the people who are traveling through there to take their time to enjoy it and to shop off the highway and can the City petition to get that speed limit lowered and would it be done. Pappas said yes he would recommend that you contact the head of traffic operations his name is George Gilhouley and let your concerns be know to him . and your wishes as well and he will look into the matter or have his staff look into the matter and speed limits would also be looked at. Commissioner McLeod said that first of all I don't know if everybody on this Board agrees ;,''':":'nt-~:''':'''':~'''~-''i:';i;.':;;;$tI',''P!'',~,,-~,,''''~~;:e:-~~' ---, -- -- ~_. --- ~ Workshop Meeting City Ccmnission May 3, 1994 Page 13 35 mph as the speed limit at which the traffic should flow out here, if this corridor shows it's a 45 mph corridor we are talking about slowing other areas of the City down we are going to end up being 6 lane highways in order to move the same amount of traffic because we just keep slowing the traffic down, I don't know if that is necessary to do that. Ccmnissioner Gennell said that she just wanted to know the mechanism of how it would be accomp 1 i shed if saneone wanted to. ~ Pappas: #12. Wi 11 the City of. Wi.nter Springs be afforded any input of our ideas regarding beautification and setbacks? Answer: the answer is yes we are open to hear your needs and feelings about beautification and we will be happy to try and acccmnodate you the best we can. Mayor Bush said one thing that was mentioned earlier was on the irrigation, you said it is not set up now, lets say the City of Winter Springs wanted to pipe reclaimed water to irrigate the median it's not really set up to accept that, can that be adjusted so if the City decides to do that it can in fact happen without having to tear the road up and do it at a later date. Pappas said that the thing that you really want to do, is to have the irrigation selves put in place. Mayor Bush asked if that is something that DOT does...Pappas said we will work with the City and...Mayor Bush asked the commission how they felt about doing that. ~ Commissioner McLeod said first I hear you say the sleeve across the driveway how about the sleeve under the road to the center of the median. Pappas said that is another desirable thing to have in place so that you could put future irrigation pipe in place. Commissioner McLeod said his own opinion it would be, I think we should find out from our Staff through you people is there an expense of that to this City or is that a 6" pvc sleeve that as you go down through there and each median opening that you people drop in if that's what we're requesting from you for beautification if we are going to supply the water to your median, I would sure think that you supply us the sleeve. Pappas said that he is not 100 percent sure I'll need to contact my utility section to my knowledge anything above the nonma1 cost of the roadway is borne by the City, but then again I'm not 100 percent sure I don't want to say that conclusively. Commissioner McLeod said if part of your plan is beautification, then I would think part of your plan should have same water to allow it to stay beautiful beyond the two weeks that it first hits the ground. Pappas said that he would be happy to check in to that more specifically. Commissioner Ferring said more specifically funding. Pappas said what we can effect do. Commissioner Mcleod said that he thinks that is the first option and if there is something with our own Staff that needs to came back to us and tell us what that end result is and if this Commission needs to look at monies perhaps or not, I don't think so I would think we would be more than happy to give you water therefore there should be some negotiation on these selves. Mayor Bush said to the City Manager that is another thing to work on. Workshop Meeting City Carmission May 3, 1994 Page 14 Commissioner Gennell said based on the workshop that we had with DOT on this roadway four years ago, correct me if I'm wrong, you came in and all you want to do is the road, the concrete and the grass, is that correct. Pappas said basically you are talking about the main roadway, stormwater collection we are building the retention ponds as part of the water quality requirements and also we are relocating all the utility lines. Commissioner Gennell said she means as far as aesthetics go and landscaping, you are pretty much limited to grass and dirt, is that right. Pappas said yes to his knowledge there is nothing beyond sod that DOT plants. Commissioner Gennell said the outcome of our workshop with them was we were investigating the Florida beautification DOT grants, and for those of you on the Commission that aren't familiar with it is it's a SO/50 matching grant, where the City would came forward with plans in place of what they wanted and DOT approves them and they match 50% of the cost and it can be done in conjunction with this planning that they are doing right now. so lets say the deadline for the bid is in February and the bids go into Tallahassee and if you get the grant the time when they are working on the road the money comes from Tallahassee and our money or like kind labor or materials, in other words all we have to match for SO/50 is in-kind it could come up to man hours of our people in the'city that are doing it or in-kind donations from nurseries and so forth and so on. But they the DOT indicated to us that they would work every step of the way along one of those beautification programs and assist in implementing every phase of it so that we were sure that we had water to it and everything. and at the time we did that workshop we were only concerned about the timing of putting in for the grant and we determined that at that time it was far to early to put in for the grant, so I think what the Carmission should consider later is do we want to try and do a design however we are going to do and try make that deadline so that funding and all is available and a plan is available when they are putting in the road so the whole thing comes together. Mayor Bush asked Pappas if there was time to do what Commissioner Gennell is suggesting. Pappas said that he is concerned about the timing it's not to say that it couldn't be done as a separate project you know we are embarking on enhancement projects through funding for sidewalks and bikeways, many Cities are approaching us and those are separate projects. Commissioner Gennell said that her only reason for bringing that in was that our key thing which has been mentioned repeatedly is water and the DOT people who were here at that meeting indicated that that would be something that they could work with us to get that water available there and if we got the grant that year the next year when they were putting it in or after it was in five years we wouldn't have to rip up the road to get water in there. Mayor Bush said he was just thinking that it is going to take Commission action to appropriate rroney from the Ci ty and that means someone has to have a plan and someone has to put it together someone has to tell us how much it is going to cost and the Commission has to decide to spend it, can we in fact get all of that done in the time frame that exists between now and February. Commissioner McLeod said that any time you do a project if you are able to do it at the '. . . . . . '~"mf;J'.~,~,tr"','YJjt',:r?'.i;~F.\~liJ1"~'~2l1~ n_ Workshop Meeting City Cannission May 3, 1994 Page 15 same time because it is already tore up and the ground is tore up and so forth, you are saving money and I think that is one very important thing, I believe in listing to Cannissioner Gennell maybe one of the things this Cannission needs to do is go back and ask our BOWS Board to get involved and let them come back to us with a plan and some cost factors along with our City Management, we do have a board for that and I bel ieve that maybe the way to go. Comnissioner Langellotti asked if he understands that you are making an extension from 419 out, you don't have any center median from there all the way to 427 so you have no center median you have a four lane highway coming through and then we are going to have a center median only through this portion, is that correct? Pappas said that is correct. Commissioner Langellotti asked why.. Pappas said that is currently a four lane facility so we are tieing in a four. lane facility.. ..Commissioner Langellotti asked who idea it was to cane up.with a center island. Pappas stated that it occurred through the study phase which he wasn't a part of, they recommended we followed the study recommendations, and we pick up on the final design, I can't say why it changed DOT currently is looking to provide medians in all multi lane roadway facilities. Commissioner Langellotti said that he recalls meeting with DOT in Tallahassee ~hree years ago and they said they didn't want any center medians. Pappas said at one time the DOt favored having a what is called a center bi-direction turn lane, but as traffic counts increase they become essentially not functional, so the current philosophy is to go with medians with control access; there have been problems having the uncontrolled access of a fully opened median and the grassy median affords controllability so presently all roadways are being designed with grassy medians. Cannissioner Ferring said on that subject one only needs to ride around the whole area and see some of the medians that have already been installed by DOT are not being ripped up to widen the thoroughfares from which they were placed making them larger than 6 lanes and some cases 6 with turn lanes that make it 8 lanes and sometimes even larger. It appears that it seems that we are caught in a blind switch here between the. State and the County everybody wants to install tremendously wide medians through the City of Winter Springs we are caught by the County who wants to put a 22' median on what we call a residential road and they insist it's a minor arterial where they are going to come in and destroy a lot of the vegetation and natural beauty we have in our neighborhood areas and at the same time the State is now coming in and putting a 46' median and we are trying to figure out is Winter Springs unique to the rest of Central Florida because I've gone allover Central Florida trying to find median widths that are of that kind of proportion and I can't find them, that's one point, the other point J want to allude to what Cannissioner McLeod said as far as the BOWS Board J think that they indeed can have input in this and we want them to have input and we are currently charged them to work with the City Staff and City Planner and 1'm sure that the Planner will be on top of this and to make sure that whatever we are discussing here that it will funnel through the BOWS Board and the City Planner and the City Manager and cane back to us. That's the couple of comments I had about that especially this thing about these wide Workshop Meeting City Camlission May 3, 1994 page 16 " . medians we are just getting banged from all sides. Mayor Bush asked the recording secretary to make certain that the BOWS Board receives a copy of the minutes of this meeting especially pointing out the discussion on item 12 here. Camlissioner Gennell said the DOT grant for all of your benefit requires that the design be done by a licensed landscape designer or DOT won't accept our application, so it's all wonderful to have the BOWS Board and that's where I was and that's where this comes fram but ultimately the BOWS Board was faced with the fact that the City at that time would have to go to a licensed landscape designer for something that DOT would accept in the way of plans or they won't even consider you. Mayor Bush said it appears to him that what is going to have to happen fram the Ccmnission at a regular meeting that this is going to have to be brought up and see if the Camlission wants to set aside funds to hire a landscape architect to do this and so I think we are going to have to have some idea of the cost, I don't know how the Commission could make a decision without some estimates of the cost. So I think Mr. Govoruhk needs to work on that with the Planner and come back to the Commission you know to pick up on what Commissioner Gennell is saying here and also Camlissioner McLeod as well as the other are also . saying the same thing too that this is something certinaly we ought to look at if we can afford it and get the State to pick up the other half it is certainly worth looking at. But I think it has to be done about as quick as it can be done at this point. Commissioner McLeod said regarding the medians being 46' I can understand where you are coming from because once we start with development of this City, this section of property right now is virtually undeveloped and a lot of this property is going to be commercial property and over the next few years as the commercial property continues-to develop within side the City it allows you as avenue if we need to go 6 lanes to pick those lanes up without cutting the fronts of buildings and properties off and I have to commend DOT of fact of opening their eyes and saying the future of this thing is going to be broader that 4 lanes and that may be 20 years from now but nevertheless we have the opportunity to go to the center rather than try to push to the outside, so I totally understand the reasoning it is much easier to get the roadways today then it will be in 20 years and it would be very costly to the taxpayers in 20 years. Cannissioner Gennell said on the grassy medians I too have notices where other Cities are ripping up some of those medians and not all of them are going to widening their streets, some of them are in fact reclaiming the middle of the street and putting plants and landscaping to beautify their City and that is something we sorely need on that end of town. On these medians, back to them being so wide, and the purpose suits me fine, but if . you are going to reserve that for travel in the future I do not see, and you will have to explain to me why you can't take those medians and make them 30' and give what I have seen in other communities whatever you know what . ;, ;, . a . ",f,~ '''';:''}frw.;~~-l''': ~":'~~ 't; _, ,:;. ij;'~ ':';:!("~;~:c ".,"-'i"'~;}":"',~l':'"i~:~. Workshop Meeting City Commission May 3, 1994 Page 17 the dimensions are but it is a bike lane it says bike lane and it's about 6 or 8 feet wide and it's another lane of traffic there, why can't you do that instead of leaving the middle empty and making people with kids giggle along the side of the road. Pappas said that is difficult to say I've not worked with a bike path of that concept to date that would have to be proposed to the DOT and we have a Bicycle Coordinator that operates out of the Orlando urban office he should be contacted it is not a nonmal practice I'm not saying that it couldn't be looked at but you know you would have to go through the right people that deal with bike ways, DOT is looking at more bikeways. commissioner Gennell asked the Mayor if we could ask the City Manger to have staff get with then and see what is possible. Mayor Bush sa i d that he doesn't see any reason why not. Commi ss i oner Genne 11 sa i d to get with the Bicycle Coordinator and see if they can make allowance for that. Mayor Bush asked the City Manager to follow up on that and get back with the Commission. Commissioner Torcaso said that he has been driving this darn road for a good number of years it is a terrible road to drive on at the present time I'm interested in the road being paved drainage everything else, I don't look for pansies or flowers coming up the driveway, I'm looking how to get here and get back out back downtown, 1'm looking for that road, I'm looking for that good highway I expect it to be from 17-92 up to the greenway, but it seens like it's going to be from 419/434 to Tuscawilla in a couple of phases I'm mainly interest in you people have been driving this road here you see the traffic stuck out there at the present time, are those people looking for beautification - they are looking for a road, and that's what I'm looking for the beautification part of it can come afterwards or in between times the main thing is get the damn road done. Mayor Bush said that he doesn't think anyone has implies that the beautification in any way should delay the construction of the road, but if it can be worked out so that it can work with it I think that is what the Commissioners are referring to here. Pappas said as he has mentioned the one thing you want to make sure to have ready with ,these plans are i rr i gat ions se 1 ves because you rea 11 y can't make open cuts after the road is built so it behooves you to get that plan, that's the most important aspect and as I mentioned you can do the plantings later there is no reason you can't do the plantings later and also install the sprinkler systen. Commissioner Torcaso said it's interesting right now if you live in Tuscawilla you can go out the door and turn left and get up to tuscawilla and if you live on the other side of town and there is a tie up down here like there has been the last few weeks, you have to go to Lake Drive and go through Casselberry, this is the whole thing we talk about fire, safety and welfare of the citizens - lets get the road done. Mayor Bush stated that we have covered the 12 itens on this list are there other itens? Commissioner Gennell asked what kind of curbs will there be. Pappas said standard 6" concrete curb and gutter, the gutters roughly 18" wide at the base and 6" high curbing. Commissioner Gennell said in other words it cane up in a square - not a miami curb. Pappas said that is correct and that is to the outside, on the inside lanes there will be a 2' Workshop Meeting City Commission May 3, 1994 Page 18 . paved shoulder that is flush with the grass, we are not putting a curb in on the inside because of future expansion. Commissioner Gennell asked if Pappas mentioned retention ponds. Pappas said there are 3 water retention areas adjacent to the road right-of-way that we are going to be excavating for our ponds. Commissioner Gennell asked where will they be. Pappas said one in next to the Post Office site - to the north west; the other is along the stretch of the celery fields and the other is about opposite the Bus Barn. Commissioner Gennell asked how will those retentions be treated, in other words are you going to do anything surrounding them or are you just going to dig them up and leave them there. Pappas said it will be pretty /Tl.lch the standard des i,gn where they w;.ll have an earth berm around the parameter an earth berm serves .two purposes, one it contains the stonmwater and secondly to allow our maintenance crews to enter the area and to maintain the bottom of the ponds, due whatever cleaning that is necessary; they will also be encompassed by a 6'high cyclone fence with a grated entrance. Commissioner Gennell asked how high are the berms. Pappas said it varies. Anderson said a couple of feet. Commissioner Gennell asked approximately how lTl.lch area are the ponds going to take up. Pappas said they are all three different sizes. Anderson said the one by the Bus Barn is less than a half acre; the one in the old celery field is almost 5 acres ; and the one by the Post Office, I believe looks about 4-5 acres. . Commissioner Langellotti said that is only the three there, aren't there two others proposed from Tuscawilla Road down ~o the beltway. Pappas said that is correct. Commissioner Gennell stated that she doesn't know how anyone else feels about this and thinks same people around here shares her opinion that we go out of our way around here to keep things looking nice and I don't know of a single homeowner Association in town that allows chain link fencing now and I'm going to object right here and now to having it right on our main road coming through if there is any other alternative to deal with it, at least if you are going to put chain link up if we can have hedges or something because there is one down by 434 by the hospital that is an eyesore and 4 and 5 acres right up next to our road, I find a little distasteful - personally. Mayor Bush asked if there were other options. Pappas said with the right-of-way set, the only way that DOT allows the rerrova 1 of the fence is to change the side slopes and make them very flat, there are at a 6 to 1 minimum this is a fairly flat slope, that eliminates the danger involved, hazardous to people and those cases the fence can be rerroved but it requires more area, you need to enlarge the pond limits. Commissioner Mcleod asked Pappas is they have that area in anyone of these locations? Pappas said there is no additional area that land that we have acquired or are in the process of acquiring has been set just for this particular design and we can't, don't take excess land unless it happened to be a whole take and this particular ponds are sized for this area of land. Commissioner Ferring said in regards to the chain link fence, can't that be green vinyl. Pappas said he was not sure, and he thinks there is an optional fence material in our list of materials and it is an extra cost item. Commissioner Ferring said he is sure that they should look at that . . Workshop Meet i ng City Carrnission May 3, 1994 Page 19 i . . . pretty closely, that is a much more aesthetic view than the plain galvanized. Pappas said that he would like for the Commission to make that request to us (DOT) and then I can work with the formal request. Commissioner Ferring said ok, I think our City Manager has written that down and our Planner has written that down and made note of it. Carri'lissioner Gennell said that she still object to the fencing at all, she just plain does, you are going to come in here and bring, if I calculated right, several acres of chain link fencing be it green or red, right up where people are coming in our city and we are going to be trying to make the rest of it pretty and here we are going to have fence right up by the road, now I would ask you to look at it, if there is any thing else, is there, any way that you deepen the ponds, well...Pappas said there is a problem that it will effect the schedule greatly, we have the penmits to do this project and to redesign the ponds would mean that we may have to open that up again with Water Management District it is not an easy task, it could be timely. Commissioner Gennell said that we have waited a long time for this road now and if those are significant considered significant enough with the Commission it may be that we ask you to do that, I mean those things are ugly - gentlemen, they are ugly and this is the center of our town you are not going to bypass around the outside here, this is our center of our town. Anderson said that you have to realize that there is a high water table around here and deepening the ponds won't be much good. Commissioner McLeod said that you have to shallow the ponds to get rid of the fence. Carrnissioner Gennell said what she thinks she' was aiming at was something along the lines like in s. Florida there is a road called cuttler Ridge and there are ponds off different sides of it and they put ducks in them and kids play around them, in other words if you can take something that is a necessity and turn it into maybe a recreational area in other words by shallowing them out not having the fences they could in fact turn into some little neighborhood attraction. That would be much more aesthetically pleasing riding down a road than all this vinyl 'and chain link fence; and I for one if it takes a little more time to get the road, as far as ~ one vote would 90 I would postpone the road and get nice little ponds with ducks or something that looked good instead big benmed chained in things. Pappas said again I would ask you to make that a formal request to the Directors of DOT, I'm really not in a position where I could make a decision like that. Commissioner Gennell said she is just saying that there are alternatives from ~ point of view. Pappas said that there are other alternatives that is true. Commissioner Gennell stated that she thinks this is the worst one. Commissioner Ferring said in all due respect Commissioner Gennell makes some very good points, however, I don't think this Commission no matter what we really want can demand from the state certain provisions that we like we are asking for corporation from the state, if the state decides they are going to do it they are going to do it any way they want to do it, and we are realistic enough to understand that, so we are not going to be demanding anything all we are asking for is corporation to the best of your ability to work with us that we can keep our city as aesthetic and as pleasing as Workshop Meeting 4It City Comnission May 3, 1994 Page 20 possible and when it comes to retention ponds whether you will do something regarding the proper buffering or making them pleasing to the people that are in the nearby area; we can only ask you this, we can't vote and say well we are going to tell you if you don't do this we are not going to vote for it, we haven't got that power to stop you, all we are doing is ask you for the corporation on intergovernmental workings under 163 or whatever you want to call it, that we work together; this is the purpose of this workshop so we can exchange ideas and you can hear what our thoughts are - take them back to your people and say they have same genuine concerns here and we raised some very legitimate concerns, so please consider them and just don't say damn the City of Winter Springs we are going to do what we want, so this is the purpose of this workshop there was one other item that was in notation here and I'll read it to you "There are many other questions that our City Manager, his Staff, and City Comnissioners will have as construction progresses, will DOT be agreeable to any future requests for additional workshop meetings? Pappas said at that point it goes into our construction unit and I think J can safely say that they would be agreeable to attend future workshops, that is generally the policy we do like to communicate with various Cities and other agencies. Commissioner Ferring said on that basis again, we are not trying to strong ann you, we know we can I t do it we are asking you for corporat ion between both the State and the 4It City, to show what intergovernmental corporation can be, and I think we both come out a winner on it. Comnissioner Gennell said that she thinks what the gentlemen are asking for is for if we have any kind of consensus at our regular meeting to put same of these specifics in writing, he has asked twice for us to put it in writing for him and then perhaps then he can go to his supervisors and this can work out a little more, but I think he is asking for us to put something in writing here. Mayor Bush said that he has tried to make a list of same of these and after we are finished talking to Mr. Pappas we will review what we have asked the City Manager to do. Cannissioner Gennell said that she has one more comment and that is in regards to the mitigation land, I would ask this is on your list that you are making Mayor, that we would ask the City Manager to have Staff get with their Staff and see if we can't do something about having this mitigated land leave our incorporated area, if we can't retain the mitigated land within the City of Winter Springs, because that was designed that way under that coral program. Cannissioner McLeod stated that he would only want to make sure that once we walk out of these Chambers that this just doesn't all die here, with our City Manager and his assistants of his Departments to definitely follow through with these things and the State does have obligations to this community as far as what the community is looking for, you people with the State or the State mandates us everyday on things that we are suppose to do, however, there is also interworkings of governments that does allow for our input, it seems to me that this project you have had input before, but it seems it was an awful long way down the pike here with the project without perhaps coming to us and saying with our planners what are you as your 4It . . . 4l":T~~-':'"m;W"~:;1;; .j;; ~:~_:(~"~l~" -r:~"r l"'''''P '-; . Workshop Meeting City Ccmnission May 3, 1994 Page 21 . .. .' City's needs along these lines, it seems to me that we have had to came to you and ask for the opportunity to speak to you about those things and it seems interworking means it works both ways and I would hope that as we continue here that your Staff comes to us on same of these things with our Staff and further discuss what we are looking at because everybody says it is cast in stone t don't believe that for a moment, I don't believe it has to be cast in stone, we all have people that we report to, but if we know who those people are and we get to those people and at this point we are asking you to go to those people but if we to get with those people, I'm sure same changes .can happen here. I don't think we need go to that point I think that you fellows understand our positioning and I would definitely would like you to work with our Staff and yourself to take those points to the people where it needs to be or J'd'would like 45 days from now at least our Staff within that time to come back and say we are getting no where rather than waiting the five months and say that it is now cast in stone and nobody can get anything done, we should work within time frames of reasonable time. Mayor Bush said that he thinks it is on our shoulders to follow through with DOT, he doesn't really except them to follow through with us on this and the lapse in three years, well regardless.... Mayor Bush stated he will review the things that we have in some way agreed to and ask the City Manager to follow up on: 1. Dealing with the BOWS Board, making sure they are aware of what went on here today, looking into the matching grants. Looking into the cost of hiring the architect to do the study to approach the grant process. 2. For the City Manager to continue working with Seminole Pines to see if the road alignment can't be brought about, and if there is anything the Commission or the Mayor could do to help this along, we will all do what ever the City Manager recommends. 3. The retention ponds, the beautification efforts to do that whether it be the vinyl fence that was mentioned or anything else that the City Manager could come up with to address some of the concerns that Commissioner Gennell brought up on that. 4. Putting the selves for the reclaimed water all the way on this project. 5. Contacting the Bicycle Coordinator concerning the bicycle lane that was discussed. 6. Look into the mitigation process and if there is anything to be done to not give up the property in Winter Springs to the mitigation. Commissioner Ferring said that we've put everything down on record and I ask . . Workshop Meeting City Commission May 3, 1994 Page 22 . .; . for a verbatim transcript to be given to us so we fully understand what we discussed today and that the City Manager and the Assistant to the City Manager and the rest of the Staff can be aware of what was discussed tonight incase we did miss anything it will be in the minutes. Mayor Bush stated to the City Manager that when he reviews the minutes and what we just said maybe at the next Commission meeting or whatever, let us know what Commission Meeting he might want to bring this back to say this is what I think you all want us to do, and give us some idea how you are going to do it. Commissioner Gennell stated in reference to the letter because they specifically asked for a letter and I don't know which of those few things need to be addressed in a letter but he was specific about a couple of things that he would like to see put in a letter. Mayor Bush said the verbatim minutes will give us that but I think the Bicycle Coordinator needed a letter and the fencing, but the City Manager will let us know what letters we need to write. Commissioner Gennell said along the lines with transportation, can I bring up one item, there is a seminar being held over in Oviedo this Thursday, and . it's on rail, trail and the Florida scenic trails and it's in preparation for the final submission of a map to Tallahassee for the Greenways Program and they have Lake, Osceola, Seminole County and they have all the Cities and everything and I think....Mayor Bush asked when on Thursday. Commissioner Gennell said Thursday from 10:00 a.m. to 3:00p.m. and I really think someone from our Staff should be there because they are going to give maps going right through our City whether we have input or not. Mayor Bush said to the City Manager to get with Commissioner Gennell on this and see if he wants to assign one of the City Staff to attend on Thursday and then maybe report back. Commissioner Torcaso said the whole thing and he wishes this Commission would remember that this is a State Road, it's not a City road, it's not a lane going through the City, it's a State Road and these people have built roads before, I don't think they go to Homeowners Associations and everything else when they are building a State Road maybe when they are building a City road or something like that they do, but I think we are forgetting that it's a State Road. Commissioner Gennell said to Commissioner Torcaso they do. The meeting adjourned at 3:20 p.m. Respectfully Submitted, . Margo Hopkins Deputy City Clerk