HomeMy WebLinkAbout2022 06 27 Consent 302 - Approval of the Minutes from the Monday, January 31, 2022 City Commission Special Meeting • CONSENT AGENDA ITEM 302
n, CITY COMMISSION AGENDA I JUNE 27, 2022 REGULAR MEETING
1959
TITLE
Approval of the Minutes from the Monday,January 31, 2022 City Commission
Special Meeting
SUMMARY
RECOMMENDATION
Staff recommends City Commission to approve the Minutes from the
Monday,January 31, 2022 City Commission Special Meeting
1
CITY COMMISSION
rn�orporac59
195SPECIAL MEETING
MINUTES
MON DAY, JAN UARY 31, 2022 AT 6:30 PM
CITY HALL- COMMISSION CHAMBERS
1126 EAST STATE ROAD 434, WINTER SPRINGS, FLORIDA
2
CALL TO ORDER
Mayor Kevin McCann called the Special Meeting of Monday, January 31, 2022 of the
City Commission to order at 6:33 p.m. in the Commission Chambers of the Municipal
Building (City Hall, 1126 East State Road 434, Winter Springs, Florida 32708).
Roll Call:
Mayor Kevin McCann, present
Deputy Mayor Kevin Cannon, present
Commissioner Matt Benton, present
Commissioner Ted Johnson, present
Commissioner TiAnna Hale, present
Commissioner Rob Elliott, present
City Manager Shawn Boyle, present
City Attorney Anthony A. Garganese, present
City Clerk Christian Gowan, present
*AGENDA NOTE*A FULL TRANSCRIPT OF THE PROCEEDINGS IS ATTACHED TO THE
END OF THESE MINUTES.
Commissioner Elliott provided the Invocation followed by the Pledge of Allegiance.
No changes were made to the agenda.
Mayor McCann noted the same rules of procedure as were discussed at the previous
meeting regarding this topic (September 20, 2021) would be in place.
AWARDS AND PRESENTATIONS
100.) Not Used
INFORMATIONAL AGENDA
200.) Not Used
PUBLIC INPUT
Mayor McCann opened Public Input
No one spoke
Mayor McCann closed Public Input
CONSENTAGENDA
300.) Not Used
PUBLIC HEARINGS AGENDA
400.) Not Used
CITY COMMISSION MINUTES I SPECIAL MEETING MONDAY, ]ANUARY 31, 20221 PAGE 2 OF 4
3
REGULAR AGENDA
500) Pursuant to Resolution No. 2021-09 and Section 4.11 of the City Charter, City
Commission Investigation Proceeding Related to the City's Existing
Consumptive Use Permits Issued by St.Johns River Water Management District
and the Multi-Phase Expansion of the City's Reclaimed Augmentation Plant at
Lake Jesup and Related Distribution System.
Mr. Frank Hamner, Esquire was present representing the following subpoenaed
individual:
• Mr. David Gierach, President, CPH Engineering
Mr. Gierach was sworn in by the City Clerk and provided testimony to the
Commission.
Discussion followed on next steps and Attorney Garganese agreed to continue to
communicate with CPH's representatives to try and set up the appearance, in person
or via telephone, of Mr. Terry Zaudtke. The Commission agreed to give Attorney
Garganese thirty (30) days and make a decision on closing the investigation at the
February 28, 2022 City Commission meeting.
PUBLIC INPUT
Mayor McCann opened Public Input
Mr Art Gallo, 199 Nandina Terrace, Winter Springs noted he thought it was time to
end the investigation and move forward.
Ms. Sheila Benton, 474 Cedarwood Court, Winter Springs encouraged the
Commission to review Comprehensive Plan requirements, specifically in the
Conservation Element.
Mayor McCann closed Public Input
ADJOURNMENT
Mayor McCann adjourned the meeting at 9:06 PM.
RESPECTFUL L Y SUBMI TTED.'
CHRISTIAN GOWAN
CITY CLERK
CITY COMMISSION MINUTES I SPECIAL MEETING I MONDAY, ]ANUARY 31, 20221 PAGE 3 OF 44
APPROVED:
MAYOR KEVIN McCANN
NOTE: These Minutes were approved at the 12022 City Commission Regular Meeting.
CITY COMMISSION MINUTES I SPECIAL MEETINC I MON DAY, JANUARY 31, 20221 PACE 4 OF 4
City Commission Special Meeting SECOND CORRECTED
January 31, 2022
CITY COMMISSION SPECIAL MEETING
(Corrected Transcript . )
Monday, January 31st, 2022
6 : 30 p .m. to 8 : 58 p .m.
City Hall Commission Chambers
1126 East State Road 434
Winter Springs, Florida 32807
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City Commission Special Meeting SECOND CORRECTED
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1 INDEX
2
AGENDA ITEM PAGE
3
4 Regular Agenda
5 500 . Pursuant to Resolution No . 2021-09 and section 4 . 11 of
the City Charter, City Commission Investigation
6 proceeding Related to the City' s existing Consumptive
Use Permits Issued by the St . John ' s River Water
7 Management District and the multi-phase expansion of the
City' s Reclaimed Augmentation Plant at Lake Jesup and
8 Related Distribution System.
9
Public input 108
10
11 Adjournment 115
12
Certificate of Reporter 116
13 Certificate of Correction 117
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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City Commission Special Meeting SECOND CORRECTED
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 - - - - - - -
3 MR. MCCANN : And good evening, everyone . I would
4 like to call the January 31st, 2022, Special Meeting in
5 the City of Winter Springs City Commission to order .
6 And Christian can you call the roll, please .
7 MR. GOWAN: Kevin McCann .
8 MR. MCCANN: Present .
9 MR. GOWAN: Deputy Kevin Cannon .
10 MR. CANNON: Present .
11 MR. GOWAN: Commissioner Matt Benton
12 MR. BENTON : Here .
13 MR. GOWAN: Commissioner Ted Johnson .
14 MR. JOHNSON: Here .
15 MR. GOWAN: Commissioner Tiana Hale .
16 MS . HALE : Here .
17 MR GOWAN: Commissioner Rob Elliott .
18 MR. Elliott : Here .
19 MR. GOWAN: City Manager, Shawn Boyle .
20 MR. BOYLE : Here .
21 MR. GOWAN: Thank you . City Attorney Anthony,
22 Garganese .
23 MR. GARGANESE : Here .
24 MR. GOWAN: For the record we do have a court
25 reporter, ordered by the City, retained just like we did
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1 for the last special meeting, just for the record, thank
2 you .
3 MR. MCCANN : And Commissioner Elliott, if you would
4 not mind doing the invocation .
5 MR. ELLIOT : Sure . Please, bow our heads in
6 prayer . Lord, we gather again to do the People ' s
7 business remembering that we are your people . Please,
8 give us insight, understanding and enlightenment in
9 these proceedings here this evening. I ask your
10 presence be here in this room to keep our conversations
11 civil and professional, remembering to reflect you,
12 Lord, in all that we say and do . Amen .
13 MR. MCCANN : And now the Pledge .
14 (Pledge of Allegiance . )
15 MR. MCCANN : Okay. So -- bare with me for a
16 second. Okay. We have no more awards or presentations
17 or informational agenda . We will jump straight to
18 public input, during this session . We do believe that
19 if time allows out before and after, it is traditional,
20 I do it after every commission meeting. And so at this
21 time if there is anyone that wishes to speak during
22 public input on an Agenda item subject matter, will be
23 allowed to fill out a blue public input form. And
24 individual will be limited to comments of three minutes
25 and representatives of groups or homeowner ' s
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1 associations shall limit their comments to five minutes,
2 until otherwise determined by the city commission . I
3 would like to remind you of no foul language to speak to
4 the entire dais and not to any individual member .
5 Having said that would anyone like to have this first
6 opportunity to make any comments at the dais . Seeing
7 none . We ' ll move right on to the single item on the
8 Agenda . This is a special meeting of the City
9 Commission which is being helped to conduct the one
10 specific item of business on July 12th, 2021 .
11 The City Commission adapted resolution 2021-09
12 invoking it ' s investigatory powers under Section 4 . 11 of
13 the City Charter to initiate and conduct a formal
14 investigation of the form business affairs of this city.
15 Related to the city' s septic use and water permit and
16 Lake Jesup reclaimed augmentation plant . The first --
17 was held on September 20th, a number of -- or a couple
18 of individuals were here and a number of others were
19 represented by legal counsel and this is simply a
20 reminder and an attempt, this is not a meeting in an
21 attempt to point blame at anyone . We ' re simply here to
22 gather facts . We ' re going to ask that both the
23 commission and anyone speaking before the dies please
24 stay on topic . As we did have -- during the last
25 meeting, I read through a lengthy list of guidelines for
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1 this meeting and it is the dies present and has heard
2 those guidelines . It is my understanding that those
3 that were asked to come before us today, were provided
4 those same guidelines in advance . So I won ' t take the
5 time to read through them. Again, I believe it was
6 Commissioner Elliott at the last meeting -- again, I
7 think I can almost quote him, but basically we ' re here
8 not to point fingers . We ' re simply here to ask
9 questions and find out what the facts are . Maybe a
10 timeline of how things happened, why they happened, so
11 that we can have a better understanding of what ' s going
12 on . Okay. And so with that, it is my understanding
13 that for this evening there were to be two
14 representatives from CPH engineering here it ' s my
15 further understanding that one of them is present, if
16 I 'm not mistaken . Mr . David Gierach is present; is that
17 right? If you wouldn ' t mind, sir, step forward, you can
18 take a seat forward. And is it safe to say that you
19 brought counsel with you or are you --
20 MR. GIERACH : I did. No, no . Terry is -- Terry is
21 retired, so he ' s been living out in Colorado .
22 MR. MCCANN : Okay.
23 MR. GIERACH : Yeah, so he ' s only here part-time .
24 He was not available on this date so .
25 MR. MCCANN: Okay. And as we have done in the past
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1 to be sworn for testimony. Christian, if you could take
2 care of that for us .
3 MR. GOWAN: Sorry, you just sat down, but if you
4 could stand.
5 MR. GIERACH : Absolutley.
6 MR. GOWAN: You if you can stand and raise your
7 right hand. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth,
8 the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
9 MR. GIERACH : I do .
10 MR. GOWAN: Thank you .
11 MR. HAMNER: And, Mr . Mayor, I 'm Frank Hamner, I 'm
12 counsel for CPH, Mr . Gierach . Just to clear the record,
13 Mr . Zacky was not scheduled tonight and for my
14 understanding, as my conversations with Anthony, we just
15 scheduled David for tonight .
16 MR. MCCANN: Thank you and it was my understanding
17 that a subpoena was sent to him, however, he was not
18 scheduled; is that correct?
19 MR. HAMNER: Correct .
20 MR. MCCANN: Okay. Just for the record. Okay. So
21 having said that, I believe that we can open the
22 discussion before the commission and so the first name
23 on my list here, do -- do either of you gentlemen have
24 any questions before we begin -- get started?
25 MR. HAMNER: None right now.
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City Commission Special Meeting SECOND CORRECTED
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1 MR. MCCANN: Okay. Deputy Mayor Cannon, You ' re
2 first up .
3 BY MR. CANNON:
4 Q Hello, Mr . Gierach, thank you for coming tonight .
5 Mr . Hamner, it ' s nice to meet you, sir .
6 As I have been trying to kind of piece things together,
7 there is a lot of documents obviously that the clerk has been
8 going through and at last that I have been looking through
9 and I think my fellow commissioners too . It looks like CPH
10 has had a contractual relationship for like close to 40
11 years, 38 years going back to like the late 80 ' s . Right?
12 Early 80 ' s?
13 A 1974, yes .
14 Q All right . So a long time . And I didn ' t realize
15 that it went back that far but when I was looking at --
16 A Well, just to clarify --
17 Q Yes .
18 A That before was before we were CPH or before we
19 became Conklin, Porter and Holmes, so it was actually Clark
20 Gieson and Associates at that time . Cal Conklin, Walt Porter
21 and Bill Holmes formed CPH in 1981 actually Conklin Porter
22 Holmes engineers . So it was them back then .
23 Q and it was -- when I was looking through the some
24 of the paperwork here and I saw that back in 2002 the city
25 commission in July 8th of 2002 contracted for your company to
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1 do a feasibility study in reclaimed water systems
2 supplementation and augmentation . And in that contract is
3 where I saw like Amendment Number 73, you know, and I was
4 like, wow, that goes way back.
5 A Yes, sir .
6 Q And so I think we, as a city, have for many years
7 relied upon CPH to do design and engineering work for us on a
8 number of different projects, whether it ' s utilities or other
9 projects in the city. Is that your understanding?
10 A Yes, sir .
11 Q And your -- what is your position with CPH?
12 A I 'm president of CPH.
13 Q And how long have personally been with CPH?
14 A I have been with CPH for 35 years .
15 Q Oh, so the whole time? Okay. And so basically, it
16 looks like in 2002 the study was done, the feasibility study
17 and in that study what was contemplated was augmenting the
18 reuse water in the city taking into consideration future
19 growth and population, future demands, with the desired goal
20 being to use less potable drinking water for irrigation . Was
21 that your understanding as well?
22 A Yeah, I think I need to clarify a little bit . So
23 CPH we 've got about 250 employees . You know, so I have -- I
24 was not directly involved with the studies, you know, with
25 the work that was done here, but you know, Terry Zodky was
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1 obviously the main representative for the city, you know, and
2 dealing with the city. But he had other people working with
3 him Dole Goutcher and other engineers that worked on this .
4 So a lot of the things that I know of, I may know of some of
5 the information from discussions from my -- with my staff and
6 that type of thing . But I will not know a lot of the details
7 and specifics because I was not the engineer that actually
8 worked on these projects
9 Q Okay. So --
10 MR. MCCANN: If I could just interrupt for just one
11 moment, I apologize . And just as a reminder for the
12 dais . During this last meeting we asked that each
13 commissioner be afforded ten minutes of questioning
14 before we move on to the next and then we ' ll bring him
15 back as many times as we need to . Just so that everyone
16 is aware, I 'm going to do two cycles on the -- my
17 apologies .
18 MR. CANNON: You ' re going to reset it twice, is
19 that what --
20 MR. MCCANN: I got it . My apologies .
21 MR. CANNON: Oh, you got it?
22 MR. MCCANN: Yeah, I got it . My apologies .
23 BY MR. CANNON:
24 Q So William Goutcher, I saw his name on a lot of the
25 design documents and so forth. He was -- he and Mr. Zodky
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1 would have had more hands on knowledge about the specific
2 Lake Jesup reuse water augmentation plant?
3 A Yes .
4 Q Is he still associated -- is Mr . Goutcher still
5 associated with CPH?
6 A He ' s been retired for many years now.
7 Q Do you know where he lives presently?
8 A I believe he ' s still located in Central Florida .
9 I 've seen him at UCF games before?
10 Q Okay.
11 A So yeah . Yeah. So I do believe the he ' s still --
12 you know, he ' s still local, like -- I know I saw him late
13 last year at a UCF game, so .
14 Q Okay. And so since we have had our last meeting,
15 myself and I think others were using a dollar figure of 3 . 5
16 million for the Lake Jesup plant . We have since learned that
17 the correct dollar that was -- that was a combined figure for
18 the reuse plant plus the storage tank, you know, that was
19 going to be over behind Oak Forest . So I have talked with
20 the -- our CFO, our finance director and it ' s about 2 . 7
21 million dollars of tax payer money that ' s in this particular
22 plant at Lake Jesup . Okay. So I just wanted to clarify that
23 because when these questions were typed up quite some time
24 ago, it was before we had that available information . But
25 generally speaking, do you -- has it been the policy of CPH
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1 that if it ' s retained by the city or any client to design a
2 system that the design should be done in order for the system
3 to perform in accordance with the specifications that -- to
4 perform the specifications of the system?
5 A Yes, sir .
6 Q Okay. So here, I believe, back in 2019 you were
7 given a report from of CDM, I think the manager gave you a
8 report from CDM that came from the outside and evaulated the
9 Lake Jesup plant, do you remember seeing that report?
10 A I have not read that report, but I do believe that
11 we have provided you with a report --
12 Q So basically, that it was around that time that the
13 city was communicating with you that, Hey, we think there is
14 a problem with this plan and it ' s not performing.
15 Do you recall generally that that was the nature of the
16 conversation with you and then City Manager Shawn Boyle and
17 others?
18 MR. HAMNER. When you say, "Communications", do you
19 mean communications in general because the only
20 communication that I 'm aware of is a single conversation
21 between CPH and with your present City Manager.
22 MR. CANNON: Yeah, that ' s what I 'm talking about .
23 They had a meeting --
24 MR. GIERACH : We had lunch .
25 BY MR. CANNON:
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1 Q Okay. And that this was discussed and then I think
2 the former City manager Kevin Smith said that he had alos
3 maybe talked with you . But in any event -- maybe not . But
4 in any event, that ' s the first time that you learn of there
5 maybe a performance problem with the Lake Jesup Plant; is
6 that fair to say?
7 A That ' s the first time we were made aware of any
8 concerns .
9 Q Okay. Now, part of the problem is that the plant
10 as it was permitted and designed, it was supposed to produce
11 a certain amount of water . It was permitted as a -- that the
12 application that Mr . Goutcher, from your company, filed with
13 the city to DEP said that the scope of or the objective of it
14 on paragraph five, page 2A-2, that it was going to be a two
15 million gallon per day facility with a 240, 000 gallon storage
16 tank right there by the lake . And then of course pumping
17 more water to a storage tank behind Oak Forest . So you
18 understood generally that was purpose or CPH would have
19 understood that; fair enough?
20 A Yeah, sounds reasonable .
21 Q Okay. So the performance criteria for this plant,
22 it was suppose to take Lake Jesup water, filter it, add some
23 bleach to the water to knock out any biologicals and the --
24 or the output from the plant was suppose to have total
25 suspended solids of less than five milligram per liter, which
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1 is a DEP standard. Did you understand that generally?
2 MR. HAMNER: Sir, this is understanding of record,
3 his understanding is largely irrelevant, but I mean is
4 there a point to whether Mr . Gierach individually
5 understood that ' s what the document says?
6 BY MR. CANNON:
7 Q So let me put it this way: So in the application
8 signed by Mr . Goutcher, CPH employee, it represented that the
9 affluent -- the out-put from the plant, would be total
10 suspended solids of less than 5 . 0 milligrams per liter . CPH
11 understood that; fair enough?
12 MR. HAMNER: Assuming that you ' re reciting it
13 correctly -- I haven ' t seen this document . But assuming
14 that you ' re reciting it correctly, if that was CPH ' s
15 submission, of course .
16 A Yeah, that ' s the standard. In order for -- in
17 order to blend the water, you know, for -- you know,
18 basically, advance secondary standards requires that -- you
19 know, five milligrams per liter . You know, and then you 've
20 got the chlorine reserve requirements .
21 Q Right .
22 A And so that ' s basically a requirement to be able to
23 blend the treatment water .
24 Q Okay. And then this was an irrigation plant, so in
25 my prior life, my family had a cattle ranch, and down in
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1 Okeechobee a lot of ranchers and farmers had irrigation
2 pumps, right? And they didn ' t use them every day of the
3 year, but from time to time, when needed, they would kick on
4 the irrigation pump and use it to irrigate their crops or
5 their fields . And so CPH understood that this was an
6 irrigation augmentation pump to augment the reused water for
7 irrigation throughout the city?
8 A That was the purpose of the pump --
9 Q Okay. So kind of a kin to when you buy a
10 multi-million dollar fire engine and the fire engine is
11 supposed to pump, say, 1500 gallons a minute . It doesn ' t get
12 hooked up to the hydrant and pump 1500 gallons a minute, but
13 when you have a fire or when you it, it has to pump 1500
14 gallons a minute, fair enough?
15 A Fair enough .
16 Q And the same thing with irrigation-type pumps, when
17 you have -- when you have your crops or your lawns are drying
18 and dying and your plants are dying, you need that
19 irrigation . And that was the purpose of this plant was to be
20 able to augment your irrigation .
21 A Augment -- my understanding is, augment means
22 irrigation in part but also to potentially blend with the
23 reclaimed water .
24 Q Right . And my time has run out, I just want to ask
25 one more . So basically, when this was all being designed
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1 going all of the way back to 2002 with that feasibility
2 study, CPH was projecting the future needs of reused water
3 based on my future growth of the city, because that was 2002,
4 20 years ago, and also based upon the requirement that
5 utilized more, and we reuse less potable water .
6 Did you understand that or did CPH understand that?
7 MR. HAMNER: I think the only missing element would
8 be that they would not have come up with those
9 representations out of thin air . It would have to have
10 had some input from the city as to what the expectations
11 were --
12 MR. CANNON: Oh, absolutely. And I 'm not
13 suggesting otherwise . The city and your engineer worked
14 collaboratively to project future growth and the future
15 demands of reused water based on future growth, based on
16 our declining cup, which concurrently required an
17 increase amount of utilization of reuse . And that would
18 have been a general understanding of CPH, fair enough?
19 MR. GIERACH : Yeah, we would have worked together
20 with the city staff. They would have given us
21 projections and we would have worked together . Longwood
22 we used, like, you know, numbers from the University of
23 Florida but you know we worked with the planners and
24 came up with those numbers and that ' s what we would
25 typically do, so I would assume --
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1 MR. CANNON: And that ' s what it kind of looked like
2 from the report . Now, I 'm going to stop now to give my
3 fellow commissioners an opportunity.
4 MR. GIERACH : Okay.
5 MR. MCCANN: Commissioner Elliott .
6 BY MR. ELLIOT :
7 Q Good evening, Mr . Gierach. Am I pronouncing your
8 name correct?
9 A Gierach .
10 Q Gierach .
11 A A good german name .
12 Q Would it be ok if I called you David.
13 A David is perfectly fine .
14 Q So, David, I want to assure you that I have a very
15 informed understanding of the situation surrounding the Lake
16 Jesup reclaimed water or augmentation facility. I understand
17 what went right . I understand what went wrong, what needs to
18 be done . What studies have been done . The involved parties .
19 The actions on the of the city employees, actions on the part
20 of former elected officials . Actions on the part of state
21 licensing and regulatory entities . actions on the part of
22 various vendors . I understand all of that pretty well now,
23 as we have been going through this for quite a while . And I
24 have no intention pf asking any questions related to any of
25 these issues, as I believe at this point we ' re beyond those
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1 types pf questions . It ' s my goal and I believe the goal of
2 the commission to learn what happen and why and to make sure
3 that we don ' t repeat any mistakes that were made . I do have
4 a few questions for you though and I would appreciate if you
5 could answer and if counsel is okay with that . If counsel
6 tells you not to answer, I 'm okay with that .
7 A Okay.
8 Q We have never met before, correct, David?
9 A We have not .
10 Q All right . Could you describe for me what your job
11 responsibilities were at CPH engineering in and around the
12 time the design and construction of this facility?
13 And I think this would be around the time of 2010, 2011?
14 A It ' s -- we ' re going back aways .
15 Q We ' re going back aways .
16 A Yeah, so we -- I took over as president -- it would
17 have been 22 years ago . So I probably recently had assumed
18 those duties .
19 Q Okay. And as we sit here today, what are your job
20 responsibilities as president?
21 A Uh, I basically run the overall organization .
22 We 've got about 250 employees . We 've got a significant
23 number of engineers, architects, you know -- so I run the
24 overall management of the company and -- uh, that would be my
25 primary roles .
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1 Q Okay. I know that every company is different .
2 would you have direct input of say, hiring or firing? Or is
3 that done at a level that reports to you?
4 A Both. I have -- many of my employees have been
5 with us for many, many years, and so they interview them,
6 they recommend the employees and I don ' t do all of the
7 interviews . Typically, I am asked about adding any new
8 employees and the approval of any knew new employees are from
9 me or my partner .
10 Q Okay. And from a fiduciary standpoint, do you sign
11 checks?
12 MR. HAMNER: I don ' t mind the background questions,
13 Commissioner Elliott, but I mean that ' s really not --
14 CPH' s inner-workings are not really part of the subpoena
15 here . I 'm happy to go to some extent . You know,
16 there ' s going to have to be a point where we ' re getting
17 to the inside of CPH, it ' s really not --
18 MR. ELLIOT : I 'm just trying to figure out what
19 level of authority and what insight David had when all
20 of this was going on, that ' s my reasoning so --
21 MR. GIERACH : Yes, absolutely I had authority in
22 signing checks .
23 BY MR. ELLIOT :
24 Q Okay. So you could make financial decisions and
25 things like that, correct?
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1 A Absolutely.
2 MR. HAMNER: I hope he signs my bills .
3 Q Right . There you go .
4 A Typically, I just approve the payments, I don ' t
5 sign .
6 Q Well, that was kind of my next question. Is it
7 actually your signature or other folks have authority to make
8 those --
9 A Other folks have the authority to sign .
10 Q Okay. And were they basically the same
11 responsibilities in 2010, 2011?
12 A I would say that they were basically the same .
13 same responsibilities .
14 Q Just a couple more questions .
15 A Uh-huh.
16 Q Do you know of any prior or existing insurance
17 coverage that could assist in rectifying the current
18 situation at this plant?
19 MR. HAMNER: That ' s way outside of the scope of the
20 subpoena .
21 MR. ELLIOT : Okay. Okay.
22 MR. HAMNER: There has been no claim against CPH as
23 I understand it, from what we were talking about here in
24 the beginning . This is not about placing blame or
25 making claims . And insurance coverage is grossly
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1 irrelevant, I think.
2 BY MR. ELLIOT :
3 Q Okay. And if and when it comes to that down the
4 road, would CPH be willing to assist in figuring out exactly
5 what needs to be done at this plant?
6 A Well, yeah. We -- we have had a very long term
7 relationship with the City of Winter Springs . We ' re no
8 longer employed by the City of Winter Springs . If it was a
9 continued plant, we would typically work with them. I know I
10 think at this point, we were essentially fired and dismissed
11 by the city. So I don ' t think we really have a working
12 relationship if we were to come in and assist . You know at
13 the time, Shawn notified us, you know, we would immediately
14 call the supplier and -- you know, and have them go out and
15 take a look at the facility and they had done pilot testing
16 on the unit . They were the ones that, you know, that
17 gathered with the city and did the pilot test and they' re the
18 one that said that the systems work and we went through the
19 start ups and we were asked to go look at it . We didn ' t hear
20 anything back. And from my understanding they went out there
21 and my guys went out there . And then we didn ' t really hear
22 anything back from the city after they had gone out there so .
23 MR. HAMNER: And just to be clear, this is after
24 the lunch with the new city manager . CPH got the filter
25 manufacturer to go out there and take a look at it, take
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1 a look at the plant and then they never heard anything
2 back. so I think to answer your question it illustrates
3 that if asked, they are willing to assist, but they have
4 to contractual relationship with the city right now.
5 MR. ELLIOT : Makes total sense . I appreciate your
6 time, thank you .
7 MR. MCCANN: And that brings us to Commissioner
8 Johnson .
9 BY MR. JOHNSON:
10 Q Good evening. A good number of my questions were
11 probably better suited for Terry. I wasn ' t aware that he was
12 not going to be here and that he moved to Colorado . one of
13 my questions; however, was prior to this particular reclaim
14 augmentation plant, how many other similar plants has CPH
15 constructed, roughly?
16 MR. HAMNER: Prior to this plant?
17 Q Yes .
18 A It ' s not a real common thing, to do this, you ' re
19 using water to out of the river was a relatively new concept,
20 you know, so there ' s not a lot of these facilities out there,
21 but we had done the -- one of the few that I know that ' s out
22 there is for the City of Sanford. So we did an augmentation
23 system for them on Lake Monroe and that was done before this
24 and -- you know, so -- if you want to know more about that, I
25 will --
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1 Q And to your knowledge, did that plant function as
2 designed and is it still working properly?
3 A Absolutely, yes .
4 Q And I 'm going to suggest that perhaps you aren ' t --
5 or not aware of -- or probably not aware of -- I had some
6 questions about the water samples that were taken in Lake
7 Jesup leading up to decisions on the filtration system of
8 this particular plant, were you privy to any of that?
9 A I would not be privy to any of that .
10 Q Okay.
11 A I do want to say that there was different
12 technology utilized at the Sanford facility than at this
13 facility.
14 Q Okay. Because in the CDM smith report, it
15 indicated that perhaps samples were taken in during the
16 winter months and apparently there weren ' t a great deal of
17 samples taken to get a full picture of the quality of the
18 water prior to the design of the filtration system, and I
19 don ' t think you were --
20 A I would not be knowledgeable of that .
21 Q Okay. And the whole series of questions on
22 filters . One of the things that occurred at this plant, and
23 again, you may not be privy to this, but to me it was just
24 kind of a common sense thing. When Hurricane Irma struck a
25 few years ago and flooded the plant and apparently burnt out
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1 expensive control panels and so forth, and -- I guess my
2 question is : From an engineering point of view -- I guess,
3 it ' s more of a statement, I was kind of surprised at that
4 because the lake is prone to doing that, and yet it was
5 constructed in such a manor that it occurred.
6 A I guess my only comment on that was, you know,
7 Terry Zodky and this -- I don ' t know this for myself, but
8 that the panels were above the hundred year level elevation .
9 Yeah, so that would have been the requirement that it would
10 be set above the hundred year flood elevation and often
11 times, you know, these water bodies can go above that . And
12 you know, but you design to a certain level and in my
13 understanding, Terry said that that ' s was what was down .
14 Q Okay. But and then you would not be privy to any
15 of the water samples that were taken and logged during the
16 first part of the start up of this plan that would be -- that
17 would not be something that --
18 A No --
19 Q -- and then were you aware that they actually did a
20 bypass for flushing the system? Apparently our -- our own
21 utilities director attempted to do a back flush to the
22 filters did a bypass of the system. Were you aware of any of
23 that?
24 MR. HAMNER: My hesitation was to define the word,
25 "They", but you ' re saying the utility director from the
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1 city directed that bypass?
2 Q Yeah, were aware that he had done that?
3 A I was not aware of it . I think Terry my have
4 mentioned something to to me, you know, that the --
5 basically, if you ' re blending with the reclaimed water, then
6 you have to meet the reclaim standards . If you separate the
7 systems and you ' re not blending then there is no requirement
8 on the irrigation water . Just like down on the cow pastures,
9 there is no requirement to meet those standards . You know,
10 so at that point, if they were just irrigating parks then
11 that is certainly something that, you know, would potentially
12 make sense .
13 Q Yeah, the reason I asked was that it seemed like,
14 you know, something as drastic as bypassing the filteration
15 system seems to me like someone at CPH should have been
16 consulted before that happened. There is no supporting
17 documentation that I could see that no one --
18 A I do not know if we were aware of it or any of our
19 employees were aware of it .
20 Q Okay. Yeah . My fellow commissioners, my questions
21 were more geared towards the engineer . So that ' s all I have,
22 thank you.
23 A Okay.
24 MR. MCCANN: And that brings us to Commissioner
25 Benton.
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1 BY MR. BENTON:
2 Q I just have a few questions .
3 A Yes, sir .
4 Q And you said earlier that you just discovered that
5 it was brought to your attention the plant wasn ' t working.
6 When was that you had the lunch --
7 A It was when Shawn was the acting city manager .
8 Q Do you remember approximately when that was?
9 A I --
10 Q 2019?
11 MR. HAMNER: In response to the written questions,
12 we noted that it was October of 2019 .
13 Q Okay. Then before you guys signed off on the
14 completion of the plant, the papers have got your name on
15 them, I 'm assuming that you-all signed off . Did they -- do
16 you know if there was any testing done on how the plant was
17 working?
18 A I was not involved with it direct but certainly any
19 other facility that we would have done, you know, we would
20 have done start up testing, we would have had the
21 manufacturer there, we would have run through the whole set
22 up, you know, the whole operations of the facility to make
23 sure that it was working adequately and properly and meeting
24 the standards . So we would have gone through all of that and
25 then, you know, I 'm sure our engineer would have certified
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1 that meet the needs . So they would have had testing data
2 that would have verified that the system was working as
3 designed.
4 Q So unless it was working as designed at that time,
5 you wouldn ' t have signed off?
6 A They should have not signed off on it, unless
7 they' re certifying that it meets those requirements and I 'm
8 assuming that they certified the DEP, which is typically a
9 requirement of DEP, you know, permit engineering record and
10 we ' re certifying that it ' s meeting those standards .
11 Q Okay. The other question I had was -- because I
12 don ' t really understand, the reading and the reality of you
13 talking about, it was just to water the park and some other
14 people have mentioned that too . Was this facility designed
15 to only bring enough augmentation water to water the park or
16 was it initially designed to do more than that?
17 A I 'm not aware of what the directions were as far as
18 what the design capacity and what it was created -- intended
19 to water . I didn ' t know that but my understanding was that
20 it was going to be a reclaimed water augmentation system.
21 Q Okay. That was all from me .
22 MR. MCCANN: And that brings us to Commissioner
23 Hale?
24 BY MS . HALE :
25 Q And you said that there was a plant done in
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1 Sanford?
2 A Yes .
3 Q And that was on Lake Monroe?
4 A That ' s on Lake Monroe .
5 Q Okay. And does it have any issues, because I
6 understood that part of our issue is when we are pulling in
7 water, it ' s clogging up these filters and that sort of thing.
8 What kind of system is different there than from here?
9 A Well, that ' s a system, it ' s called Active Flow,
10 that ' s the name of that system that we install there . our
11 actual -- it ' s interesting and I know that you have the
12 details of it but our contract was to design that system for
13 you-all .
14 Q Okay.
15 A And during the design process, I think, it was you
16 know this is all hearsay, this is not my direct knowledge,
17 and such just so you understand that, I 'm not talking about
18 just hearsay from what I heard from my my people, but the
19 city did not want, you know, at the time it ' s -- if you go
20 see it, it ' s a very large concrete structure . It ' s very --
21 it ' s probably, I guess about 30 foot tall, you know, so it ' s
22 very big industrial looking facility, active flow system.
23 And so they were -- they did not want, you know, that
24 type of facility at the lake and it ' s also my understanding
25 that also it was a much more expensive system. So it was
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1 much more costly. For example, at that plant we actually do
2 the Active Flow System and then we actually follow -- full
3 filtration following that, we are located -- co-located at
4 the waste water treatment plant . So we go from the Active
5 Flow System, and we go -- you have just the filter component .
6 So we go through the Active Flow System and it ' s followed by
7 filters, which is similar to what amiant (ph . ) filters would
8 have been. So we have gotten, you know, deep bed dynaset --
9 dynasamp (ph. ) bed filters that follow that active flow
10 treatment and then it goes to our point of contact chamber
11 and then it ' s clean with reclaimed water . So it ' s much more
12 expensive and much more larger system and my understanding is
13 that they were concerned, you know, installing that at that
14 location . We have used the amiant filters and I 've got those
15 -- we 've got those installed at Sanford at their -- Site 10,
16 facility. We 've got them at Sanford at one of the storage --
17 it ' s a burrow pit that we converted into storage . We 've got
18 them there . We 've got them at Cigar Lake, which is a
19 reclaimed storage burrow pit and we converted it at the City
20 of Palm Coast . So we have used them the amiant filters, you
21 know, in the past too . So that ' s kind of the history and
22 understanding of -- from me of what went on with the design .
23 A All right . Do you know if there is any new
24 technology that you retrofitted into our facility --
25 Q You can put Active Flow ahead of these -- these
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1 units and it will -- you know, it ' s going to drastically
2 improve that operation . You know, you can come and see the
3 Sanford units and, you know, we ' d be glad to give you a tour,
4 you know, show you that facility. And, yeah, you know,
5 basically, you know -- I think it would have been our
6 recommendations . I don ' t know exactly what happened during
7 the design process, but obviously we ' re lead by the clients
8 on what the client ' s requirements are . I don ' t know what
9 happened in that process .
10 Q I know that there were two different filter systems
11 that you recommended the membrane and the fabric -- fabric
12 cover?
13 A Yes, so they were probably looking at disc filters,
14 you know, instead of these amiant filters that you put in and
15 disc filters . But really the Active Flow, what the Active
16 Flow does, is that it acts more like a clarifier, so it
17 actually, you know, you have a lot of cholera and chemex in
18 the water, so it coagulates those and it settles that
19 material out, so that the water that you get going to your
20 filter is a much cleaner water.
21 Q And now, on here somewhere, I saw that, but it says
22 that -- under the analyst and everything that the water was
23 satisfactory for this kind of thing, to filter the water and
24 that you-all recommended the fabric disc and the membrane
25 disc --
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1 MR. HAMNER: Ms . Hale, when you say, "On here" ,
2 what are you referring to?
3 MS . HALE : Say that again, I 'm sorry?
4 MR. HAMNER: When you say, "On here" , you ' re
5 looking at something. What are you referring to?
6 MS . HALE : I apologize . The Reclaimed Water
7 Augmentation Study .
8 MR. HAMNER: The 2005 study?
9 MS . HALE : I 'm not sure --
10 MR. HAMNER: That ' s the one referenced in the
11 resolution .
12 MS . HALE : Thank you .
13 MR. HAMNER: Yeah .
14 MS . HALE : Yes, 2005 .
15 MR. HAMNER: So in that study you ' re saying that
16 CPH recommended some membrane and the fabric filters?
17 MS . HALE : Fabric filters -- let me get back to it .
18 one second. I apologize . On page 4 through 5, it talks
19 about the treatment process required on the filter would
20 not be a difficult one . The water quality of the water
21 range of the -- in the last paragraph . And then on to
22 the next page, paragraph 4 through 7 , is the one where
23 it was recommending the disc, the fabric disc and the
24 membrane .
25 MR. HAMNER: So that was in a 2005 study, not in
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1 the 2011 design?
2 MS . HALE : Right . Right .
3 MR. HAMNER: Okay.
4 BY MS . HALE :
5 Q So my biggest question was is the Sanford plant and
6 what different and the different technology. So I would love
7 to come and check out the Sanford plant .
8 A Let me know and we ' d be glad to take you out there
9 and give you a tour and see how the plant operates --
10 Q We just have to find closure -- so I appreciate you
11 MR. HAMNER: Winter Springs and Sanford get along,
12 it ' s not some East Coast, West Coast thing. You guys
13 are all right?
14 MR. JOHNSON: So far.
15 A Let me know, like I said, I ' ll be glad to arrange
16 something and get you out there and show you --
17 Q Thank you very much.
18 MR. MCCANN: And that brings us back to Deputy
19 Mayor Cannon .
20 BY MR. CANNON:
21 Q So if -- when a plant like this is constructed and
22 it ' s coming online before everything is certified and you
23 know that it ' s performing and they do the commissioning and
24 the testing and the -- and the preliminary stuff to make sure
25 that it ' s working, your engineers are there to make sure that
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1 it ' s working as -- it ' s performing as it was designed; is
2 that fair to say?
3 A Yes, our engineers would typically be there as part
4 of the start up .
5 Q And if your engineers learned that it was not
6 performing up to the design specifications, that if it was
7 producing water that exceeded the five milligrams per liter
8 of total suspended solids, for example, what would your
9 engineers be expected to do?
10 A Well, I would have to go back and look at the
11 specifications, but most likely, you know, as part of the
12 filter specifications for amiant, when they did pilot
13 testing, was my understanding. We -- so there would be
14 performance specifications and we would go back to that
15 manufacturer . And have them take the necessary actions to
16 correct -- together with the city obviously and since the
17 contract is, you know, with the contractor or -- and -- and
18 -- with the -- to the manufacturer would be through the city.
19 You know, we would work with the city and we would recommend
20 that we go back to the manufacturer . Yeah, we would require
21 them a propose solution fix .
22 Q So the people -- and I realize that you weren ' t the
23 President back then and you weren ' t day-to-day handling this,
24 but would Terry Zodky and William Goutcher be two people that
25 would have more likely than not had been in communication
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1 with our utility director Tim Lotcuff (ph . ) on these kind of
2 issues that we 've been discussing, performance issues and so
3 forth?
4 A Yes . William Goutcher, if there was any -- you
5 know, I know that had was the actual engineer, but he was
6 working closely with Terry and he was the main --
7 Q Okay. And have you -- since this issue arose in
8 October of 2019, have you talked with either Terry or William
9 -- Terry Zodky or William Goutcher and asked them, Hey, back
10 when we were commissioning this plant and testing it and
11 bringing it online were there any issues with performance?
12 did you have any inquiries with them about that?
13 A Terry told me, as far as he knew of, you know,
14 there weren ' t any issues with it .
15 Q Okay.
16 A So we weren ' t made aware of any issues and
17 obviously we must have done testing and there wasn ' t any
18 issues brought up and it with have been turned over to the
19 city at that point for operations and we weren ' t made aware
20 of any issues with the facility. You know, obviously, we 've
21 got a long term relationship with the city and if they would
22 have had problems, together, they would have come and talked
23 to us .
24 Q And that ' s because I know that Mr . Lotcuff for me
25 many years is our utility director worked closely with your
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1 firm and with Terry -- and I guess, I have never met -- I 've
2 met Terry, but I 've never met Mr . Goutcher, but it seems
3 logical that if there was problems that that would have been
4 communicated at same time to CPH . And we have got some
5 documentation that it wasn ' t working as it should have back
6 at -- when it was starting up it was -- there was a problem
7 with it . Would there be documentation at CPH where you would
8 keep emails or documentation such as that that might reflect
9 that the utility direct Tim Lotcuff reached out to CPH
10 saying, Hey, we ' re having a problem?
11 MR. HAMNER: When you ' re talking about documents to
12 reflect that there were problems at start-up, are you
13 saying that there were communications with CPH or these
14 are internal city documents?
15 MR. CANNON: No, I 'm talking -- well, what I want
16 to know is, do -- you would have in your archive of your
17 records that CPH, this plant only came online less than
18 10 years ago . You would have some communication files,
19 email files if someone at the city said, Hey, this isn ' t
20 filtering adequately or we ' re not getting the volume
21 output adequately, I would think that you would have
22 some file materials . Have you looked to see if any of
23 that exists?
24 MR. HAMNER: No, sir. Not under my direction they
25 have not looked to see if they exist . Our records
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1 retention policy doesn ' t go back 10 or 11 years, like,
2 most places don ' t go back 10 or 11 years . But if there
3 had been emails at the time, there would have been
4 interactivity between the city and CPH, so it wouldn ' t
5 be a one way thing that CPH would have to maintain
6 emails . You guys would have had initiated that contact
7 --
8 MR. CANNON: Yeah, well I would like to hear from
9 Mr . Gierach, okay? Not -- respectfully, Mr . Hamner . I
10 would like to hear from Mr . Gierach. If someone were to
11 pick up the phone from the city, and call either Terry
12 or call William -- Bill and said, Hey, we ' re having
13 problems with these filters . They' re plugging up
14 because organic -- you know, they' re plugging up and
15 we ' re not getting the volume and it ' s constantly back
16 flushing and, you know, it ' s not working . Would there
17 be some documentation of that, like a memo to the file
18 or something?
19 MR. HAMNER: That ' s kind of a speculative
20 speculation . It ' s like if they called, if you -- did he
21 answer the call and if they had a record. Again, if
22 records exist, CPH would have maintain them in their
23 regular record retention policy. Mr . Gierach can say
24 the same thing.
25 MR. GIERACH : You know, I guess the only thing that
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1 I would say is that we had a very long term relationship
2 with the city and had they told us that they' re having
3 trouble with something, we would have been out there
4 trying to fix it . You know, we would have been working
5 with them and trying to repair whatever the problem is .
6 You know, like I said, we have a 50 -- almost a 50-year
7 relationship with the city that we had, you know. So
8 yeah, absolutely, if we would have been made aware of
9 anything, we would have worked with them to figure it
10 out what it would take to make things work --
11 BY MR. CANNON:
12 Q And as you sit here, you haven ' t done specific
13 research of documents in that regard, but --
14 A I have not .
15 Q -- but if we talk to William and if we talk to
16 Terry, they would probably be the most likely sources if such
17 conversations or communications occurred; is that fair?
18 A If there was communications, it would have been to
19 them not to me .
20 Q Yeah, that ' s what I figured --
21 A And if it came to me, it means that we were
22 responding, so .
23 Q Okay.
24 A So yeah, it would not have been to me .
25 Q And if the through put is not 700 gallons a minute
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1 but is only like 300 gallons per minute, again, that would
2 likely be caused by a plugging up of these filters from the
3 organic content and so forth?
4 A I can ' t really comment on what potentially would
5 have caused that problem.
6 Q Okay. Do you know if CPH engineers before they --
7 when they were doing their analysis of the source water from
8 Lake Jesup, if they took into consideration total organic
9 carbon, dissolved organic carbon, heterotrophic plate counts
10 coliformen and fecal coliformen data in the Lake Jesup water,
11 the source water that this plant was going to be drawing
12 from, do you know if that was taken into consideration .
13 A I was not involved with direct design so I do not
14 know.
15 Q Okay. And do you feel that the Amiade Model AMF
16 37-K microfiber filtration system, as it was put into this
17 plant, was susceptible to organic and biological fowling that
18 it was prone for that?
19 A I 'm not really sure I can really make a statement
20 on that . I mean I did not research the specific equipment
21 and models that were specified. My understanding is that
22 they did pilot testing and this is what the manufacturer came
23 back and recommended, is my understanding .
24 Q Okay. And we appreciate you coming here and I
25 think that the other two engineers that had more hands on,
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1 will probably be able to fill in some of the gaps . We ' re
2 trying to found out now -- we ' re trying to connect the dots
3 up, like, at some point it ' s apparent that this 2 . 7 million
4 dollar plant has not worked adequately and I view this as
5 kind of a two-step process . One, engineers like yourself or
6 others are going to have to figure out modifications, if any,
7 that could be made to the plan. The other part of our
8 analysis, at least for me is, how did this kind of go off the
9 rails? Why wasn ' t it reported either to you? If it was or
10 wasn ' t? Why wasn ' t it reported to the commission? You know,
11 in other words, why are we finding out about it now, in 2021
12 -- 2019, when we need the additional water and we have a
13 plant that doesn ' t work. And that ' s the other half of the
14 analysis that we ' re trying to go through as to make sure
15 systemic -- system wide procedurally in our city that we can
16 -- lesson learned and we can make sure that we can implement
17 procedures and going forward that it won ' t happen again .
18 Those are the two steps .
19 Is there there anything else that you can think of, Mr .
20 Gierach, that we haven ' t discussed about -- oh, I wanted to
21 ask you this, have you had any conversations with Former
22 Mayor Charles Lacey or any of the former commissioners of the
23 city regarding any of the Lake Jesup plant, it ' s performance
24 or any concerns or anything like that?
25 A Uh, no . I did have a call from Charles Lacey once
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1 when they were issued the subpoenas, but they -- I think he
2 was just asking me if I had been issued a subpoena .
3 Q Okay. And did -- now, whether to your knoeledge do
4 you know if any of the other CPH employees like Mr . Zodky or
5 Mr . Goutcher received any communication from, you know,
6 Former Mayor Lacey or any of the other commissioners about
7 the plant?
8 A Not that I 'm aware of, but I do not know.
9 Q And same question, Kip Lotcuff -- you know, Kip,
10 right?
11 A Yes, I do know.
12 Q Have you had any communications with Kip regarding
13 this plant directly or any issues involving this plant or --
14 A I have not .
15 Q Okay. I don ' t have anything further .
16 MR. MCCANN: Thank you, Deputy Mayor . And that
17 brings us to Commissioner Elliott .
18 BY MR. ELLIOT :
19 Q Uh, David, just kind of a couple of follow-up
20 questions to Commissioner Hale ' s line of questioning.
21 A Uh-huh.
22 Q And I 'm not trying to look for free consulting here
23 from an engineering firm, but it sounds apparently to me that
24 this active flow system was considered early on, but because
25 of costs it was probably --
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1 A I -- I -- I 'm not aware of what happened through
2 the design process . I do remember talking to Terry and then
3 our proposal was to do an Active Flow, so -- but what
4 happened after that, I 'm not really aware of .
5 Q Makes sense . And is the Active Flow System still
6 state of the art technology for this?
7 A Yes .
8 Q So there ' s no additional newer technology, cheaper,
9 better, faster?
10 A No, it ' s a very, very new technology at the time .
11 Q So active flow is -- and so as you sit here today,
12 if we were going to do this from scratch having never done it
13 before, you would still recommend the Active Flow System?
14 A I would recommend the Active Flow for all of the
15 bio-filtration .
16 Q And just like they have in Sanford?
17 A Just like they have in Sanford. It ' s a proven
18 system, it works well -- same water quality, it ' s very
19 similar --
20 Q Right . Great . Thank you .
21 MR. MCCANN: Commissioner Benton .
22 BY MR. BENTON:
23 Q When did your employment with the City of Winter
24 Springs end with your company, when did you-all stop working
25 for the City of Winter Springs?
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1 A I 'm not aware of the specific date .
2 Q Was it sometime after 2013?
3 A I -- I 'm not aware of the specific dates .
4 MR. HAMNER: It ' s hard to answer Commissioner
5 Benton, because there are probably master services
6 agreements that come with work-orders . Those master
7 servicer agreements are rarely ever officially
8 terminated. You just don ' t get the calls no more .
9 MR. GIERACH : I know we did City Hall . I know we
10 did that -- I 'm not sure when that was done .
11 BY MR. BENTON:
12 Q Concerning the augmentation plant, you guys signed
13 off on it in 2013, that ' s when -- I 'm assuming it was
14 finished at that point, your duties would have been finished
15 at that point with the augmentation plant in 2013?
16 A I guess, I 'm taking your word that that ' s when we
17 certified that . I don ' t know the specific dates but --
18 Q If you all would have had any service agreements
19 after that?
20 A Typically not . You typically, we would finish
21 design and once we get through the design, and construction
22 services we typically would not have any involvement at that
23 point .
24 Q And then you said your next knowledge of it not
25 working was in 2019, which would have been -- what is that --
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1 six or seven years later? Six years?
2 A Yes, sir .
3 Q Okay. So something must have happened in between
4 which you wouldn ' t have any knowledge of; is that right? If
5 it ' s not working now.
6 MR. HAMNER: I don ' t understand your question .
7 MR. BENTON: In 2019 it was discovered it wasn ' t
8 working properly and it was brought to your attention,
9 but it was finished in 2013, that ' s six years . So
10 something must have happened that you wouldn ' t know
11 about between then, is that what you might be saying?
12 MR. HAMNER: Let me had some clarity form our
13 written statement as well . They finished the work
14 approximately in 2013, the meeting in October of 2019
15 was not called on augmentation plant, it was merely a,
16 hey we ' re out here, you ' re the new city manager, this --
17 this came up in this conversation between the time that
18 the plant was finished until that informal conversation,
19 CPH had not been contacted about any failings or in
20 anyway about the operation of the plant .
21 MR. GIERACH : That ' s my understanding.
22 BY MR. BENTON:
23 Q That ' s what I was wondering, had nobody contacted
24 you and say anything or ask any questions?
25 A You know, me personally? No .
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1 Q Or you wouldn ' t have known --
2 A Staff-wise, I 'm not aware of -- what they have been
3 -- what I have been told. I haven ' t talked to Bill Goutcher
4 about it, so -- Bill is, you know, he ' s -- he ' s much older at
5 this point, so I don ' t know, you know, if he ' d be available
6 or not . But yeah, I did talk with Terry about it . And Terry
7 had said nobody had contacted us .
8 MR. HAMNER: Given the relationship with the city
9 though, there had been any contact, it would have likely
10 gotten to you?
11 MR. GIERACH : If there was an issue, you know, a
12 serious issue, then I would have assumed that, you know,
13 Kevin -- Obviously I know Kevin Smith very well, he use
14 to be at the City of Sanford, you know, so I 've known
15 him for many, many years . So Kevin certainly would have
16 called me and said, Hey, you need to take care of this
17 thing and we would have .
18 MR. BENTON: Thank you .
19 MR. MCCANN: And Commissioner Johnson.
20 BY MR. JOHNSON:
21 Q I was just looking over a statement submitted to us
22 from Kip Lotcuff and he described bypassing the filter
23 system, but then he went on to state, replacing or modifying
24 the internal filtering units and the secondary filter with
25 coarser media was still an alternative being pursued in 2017
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1 although the overseas manufacturer was difficult to almost
2 impossible to deal with . The facility was designed for three
3 secondary filters . But only one was purchased with th
4 initial construction . We declined to purchase secondary
5 filter number 2 that was used as an alternative at a cost of
6 around $200, 000 to expand usage beyond the parts needed, the
7 existing filter needs to be retrofitted and/or the new
8 remaining filters need to be able to pass a larger particle
9 size but still meet the permit TSS requirements . My question
10 is -- you brought up Active Flow?
11 A Yes .
12 Q Am I pronouncing it right?
13 A Yes, sir .
14 Q And with this -- with three secondary filters of
15 this design, was that an alternative to spending the
16 additional money for the Active Flow part of a system similar
17 to Sanford? Is that -- when I 'm listening to your
18 conversation, I 'm kind of guessing that they have all of
19 these filters to kind of do a work around from -- for
20 avoiding the cost of the Active Flow, is that -- am I
21 thinking right on that?
22 A The filters -- you know, I think one of issues, you
23 know, a filter that ' s filtering these particles is going to
24 have increased maintenance, increased back wash, you know,
25 because the filters are going to have to potentially back
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1 wash significantly more to ba able to clean those materials
2 out . And the Active Flow is very similar to your waste water
3 plant, you have a clarifier out in front of your filters .
4 you know, that clarifier drops out a significant portion of
5 the solids, so you ' re not seeing all of those solids through
6 your filters, you know, like the filters in your waste water
7 plant . So you ' re not seeing all of those solids into that
8 filter . And you know the issue that you got is, you know,
9 not that that filter maybe -- it could be able to handle it,
10 but the issue becomes it is increased maintenance it will
11 significantly increase back wash to get them cleaned out . So
12 if you have something like an Active Flow clarifier out in
13 front of that, then you reduce a lot of those solids . And
14 so, you know, your reduce the loading that ' s going to your
15 filters . So it ' s going to be less maintenance activity and
16 -- and itself going to be better water quality.
17 MR. HAMNER: The way that I hear you describe it,
18 Commissioner Johnson, is that there was a down stream
19 filter from the main filter that was potentially
20 specified as an alternate that could have been added to
21 the system, is what I understood you saying.
22 MR. JOHNSON: Well, that ' s what Kip has stated in
23 his written --
24 MR. HAMNER: Right . Alternates in a contract are
25 typically written that you have got a base bid and if
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1 you want to get these other extra things, they' re
2 alternates and you can add them, you know, in the add
3 hawk way.
4 BY MR. JOHNSON:
5 Q Well, for the -- for the facility to be designed
6 for three secondary filters, is that, in your experience,
7 common for a plant, let ' s say for example, the plant in
8 Sanford, does it have three secondary filters down stream --
9 A Yeah, you know, if you look at the City of Sanford,
10 we 've got, six thiacin (ph. ) filters and we 've got two
11 traveling bridge filters and then we 've got -- you know,
12 we 've got a significant number of filters on that facility.
13 Q So in this case, three secondary filters will be
14 very common?
15 A I would need to look at the specifics of your
16 design and, you know, like I said, are these parallel or are
17 they -- they intended -- you know, are they in a series? You
18 know, typically, parallel you need back up units and all of
19 that . Capacity of the units, increase the capacity of the
20 systems in a series is unusual, but you can do a coarser
21 filter, it ' s going to take up bigger materials and then have
22 a finer filter down stream. And then, you know, that could
23 have been the design concept after that I would have to look
24 at the specifics --
25 Q And than what you had just stated would seem to
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1 support what Kip has shared with us . And that they were
2 looking at possibly putting -- getting a second filter, and
3 apparently they purchased one .
4 A Yeah, it wouldn ' t be that uncommon to -- you know,
5 you have a filter up front, then that would be removed with a
6 more coarse material, so you take out the significant amount
7 of the loadings, so you have a much finer material going to a
8 finer screen . You know, and so, you know, and potentially if
9 you did that in a series, that would potentially address the
10 loading issues with the filters .
11 Q Because everything that I have -- that there seems
12 to be a common thread through this that the filters are too
13 efficient .
14 A Right .
15 Q The way that they were designed. So it just seems
16 to me that perhaps this was put in place as an alternative to
17 the Active Flow System. And I don ' t -- I guess I 'm trying to
18 see if that was the thinking.
19 A I could not tell you what that decision making
20 process was .
21 Q Okay. Thank you .
22 MR. MCCANN: And that brings us back to
23 Commissioner Elliott .
24 MR. ELLIOT : No, I withdraw.
25 MR. MCCANN: Commissioner -- Deputy Mayor Cannon .
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1 MR. HAMNER: Did you get Commissioner the second
2 round?
3 MR. MCCANN: They' re hitting buttons and I 'm going
4 by who is active or requested to speak.
5 MR. HAMNER: Oh .
6 BY MR. CANNON:
7 Q So Mr . Gierach, if the system is designed, but it ' s
8 not meeting the specifications, in other words, the filters
9 are clogging up too quickly, the through put is not adequate
10 and the output has too high of total suspended solids, that ' s
11 when the engineering firm such as yours says, okay, this is
12 not really an option anymore in order to comply with your DEP
13 permit, you have to add this other filter, right? In order
14 for it to come into complaint, you wouldn ' t write that
15 recommendation?
16 A I think what we would do as part of this contract
17 with the city, typically if we ' re providing construction
18 services for this project, what we would do is that we would
19 be looking at that specified equipment --
20 Q Right .
21 A -- and you would run it and you would verify that
22 it ' s -- that it can meet the requirements, you know, of the
23 specification . I know about back wash rates, what they
24 identified it as in the specifications, but those are
25 typically the only things that are identified as part of
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1 those specifications, what are acceptable back wash rates and
2 then those types of things . And you know, there are varying
3 conditions, and I know that there was discussions about the
4 water quality worse than what it was and I don ' t know any of
5 that, you know. So all of those things can all impact the
6 back wash rates and the loading for those filters too . So
7 you know, once we certify -- once we go through the process,
8 and together with the city, we ' ll work together with the
9 city, because the city is making the final payments and we
10 verify that the contractor that ' s built this thing and it ' s
11 in compliance with plans and specifications that were
12 prepared, which were permitted by DEP and therefore, if it
13 meets specifications, it should be in compliance with DEP
14 requirements and we would certify that based on the results
15 that are current at that time . After that point in time, you
16 know, it becomes an operational issue and the city is dealing
17 with it and it ' s operation maintenance, you know, typically
18 we have no involvement, you know, unless someone calls and
19 asks us, you know. And that they want help, that they' re
20 having issues, and that type of thing.
21 But yeah, you know, eventually we ' ll get back involved
22 again . But you know, after we do that certification and
23 really those plans, they' re not ours, you know. So -- so the
24 operation of maintenance takes over .
25 Q So the start-up -- if the problem arises during
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1 that start-up commissioning at the front end, then before you
2 certified it to the state, you ' re engineer would probably
3 say, Hey, we ' re not meeting our performance we may have to go
4 a head and add another filter or we do this or that, is that
5 reasonable?
6 A Yes, sir . We would either do that or we would go
7 back to the manufacturer because most likely it was a
8 performance based specifications . Could go back to the
9 manufacturer and tell them that we need these requirements
10 that were dictated within that specification .
11 Q And you would not -- your engineer would not do
12 that certificate to DEP or the water management certificate
13 completion or construction or whatever that certification is
14 until the planet would have been tested and it was working
15 and then you would sign off on it . Is that basically the way
16 it would work?
17 A Yes, sir .
18 Q Okay. All right . Well, I appreciate it . Thank
19 you for answering the questions tonight .
20 A Yes, sir .
21 MR. MCCANN: Commissioner Hale .
22 BY MS . HALE :
23 Q Just a quick question, you ' re talking about the
24 operation and management of city staff after you had
25 certified that it was operational . /
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1 MR. HAMNER: Operation maintenance .
2 Q Yeah, I 'm sorry. Operation maintenance .
3 Do you have anything to do with training the staff when
4 you -- when you ' re there to make sure that they' re
5 understanding the operation maintenance and how to go forward
6 and to make sure that we ' re able to take care of the
7 equipment properly, it is millions of dollars --
8 A Yes, yes . Typically within our specifications,
9 we ' ll require the manufacturers to supply the equipment to
10 provide training to the operators and you know it ' s usually
11 -- you know, they have a certain amount of time that they
12 have got to come out and work with the operators and train
13 them on how to do the equipment, train them on how to do the
14 maintenance . You know, so that ' s -- that would be typically
15 and I would assume that would be in our specifications
16 requirements of that manufacturer .
17 Q Thank you very much.
18 MR. HAMNER: And Commissioner Hale, that would extend
19 through the warranty period as well, so --
20 MR. HALE : Okay. Perfect, thank you .
21 MR. HAMNER: So that would be a period of time that the
22 manufacturer would still be on the hook for it and making
23 sure that everything is working properly.
24 MR. GIERACH: Correct .
25 MS . HALE : Okay.
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1 MR. MCCANN: And then Commissioner Johnson .
2 BY MR. JOHNSON:
3 Q I just had one last question . I believe you have
4 this document, it ' s the CDM Smith memorandum. And if you
5 look at that --
6 MR. HAMNER: We don ' t have that, Mr . Johnson .
7 Q Oh.
8 A I believe Terry was provided that document . I have
9 not reviewed that document .
10 Q Oh, okay. We ' ll I don ' t think you really need it .
11 These are -- if you can see, these are the recordings of
12 water samples . Can you see that it ' s hand written?
13 A Okay.
14 Q Is that standard procedure -- I mean this is --
15 this is summer of 2013 .
16 MR. HAMNER: Who wrote those up, do you know?
17 Q I 'm not sure . But this is apparently what the --
18 what we were doing to sample the water quality coming out of
19 plant and it ' s hand written, like, is that standard? It
20 never seemed to me that it would be on a spreadsheet .
21 A If it ' s work not being done, you know, it ' s not
22 lavatory, so these wouldn ' t be like reporting, you know,
23 results . So, you know, it ' s very likely it was done by -- I
24 would assume city staff .
25 Q Well, my question is : Is that -- would that be
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1 standard procedure? Is that what Sanford does?
2 A It ' s no reporting so it ' s not documents -- so, you
3 know, if you ' re doing testing and that type of thing, you ' re
4 not reporting it to anybody, so you ' re not having to submit
5 this as DEP reports or that type of thing . So you know, if
6 your operators and they say okay you guys measure it,
7 maintain, you know, check the PSS levels and all of that, you
8 know, that would not be that uncommon .
9 Q Well, in the process of signing off and certifying
10 the plant operational, does CPH require documentation similar
11 to this with the water quality?
12 MR. HAMNER: Just to clarify. Are you asking
13 similar to -- to the specifications, the numbers, the
14 output reports, like, what the plant is doing or are you
15 saying require handwritten notes about that?
16 MR. JOHNSON: Well, I guess my question is : What
17 do you -- what would be typical of a requirement for
18 signing off on an augmentation plant, such as, this one
19 when you ' re looking at water quality coming out of the
20 plant after the it ' s been processed?
21 MR. GIERACH : I would say, you know, potentially,
22 we would require certified labs to, you know, often
23 times to verify data . But if the city has, you know,
24 often times the city can do laboratory testing. So the
25 city at their waste water plant will -- you know, they
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1 test for TSS, chlorine residual, they do all of that all
2 on their own .
3 BY MR. JOHNSON:
4 Q So then you would require --
5 A So the city provided that for them, we ' re not
6 requiring that they certify information from the city, if
7 they give us this data, they' re the client, you know, they' re
8 the ones that ' s going to do the testing and they said this is
9 the results, we would not separately require certified data
10 from a --
11 Q So you rely on the city in providing the
12 appropriate --
13 A Yes, absolutely. And these are licensed operators
14 that are licensed to do that type of testing. They do it
15 every day as part of their job. So yeah, we would not
16 require separate certified --
17 Q So you don ' t do that separately?
18 MR. HAMNER: Unless it ' s the state calls for it .
19 A Unless -- yeah, h, the specifications call for it or
20 require it or that type of thing. But like I said, often
21 times we ' ll work with the operators at the plant and they' ll
22 verify with the data themselves and they have the lab -- you
23 know, many of these -- a lot of these have their own
24 laboratory testing . You know, each city have the basic
25 supplies that for us, you know, certified operators, that
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1 data is fine .
2 Q During the process of certification what ' s -- and I
3 apologize, I 'm not an engineer.
4 A Okay. No problem.
5 Q What would -- using this plant as the example, of
6 course, what would be the steps involved, like, okay, the
7 plant is done, we ' re throwing the switch? So what would
8 CPH ' s role be at that point?
9 A Typically, what would happen is that you go through
10 a start-up process . So you would have the manufacturers
11 there, the contractors there . The contractor would typically
12 run the facility, not the city. So the contractors are
13 typically are going to start up the plant, they' re going to
14 run it, they' re going to have their manufacturers there, you
15 know, typically at that point, you know, it ' s still the
16 contractor ' s plans . So the city hasn ' t taken responsibility
17 for it, he has to prove that it works . That it meets the
18 specifications . Yeah, so he goes through that start-up
19 process . You know, does he work with the city and they do
20 some of the testing, very possible . Do they have some of the
21 certified labs . It ' s possible . You know, that could be
22 required. But basically, it ' s the contractor ' s job to prove
23 that it the facility is meeting it ' s specifications through
24 that start-up process . Once that ' s completed, and you get
25 through that, then there ' s training with the operator . The
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1 city will take over that facility, you know, and than the
2 city is then responsible for the operation and maintenance
3 going forward typically. And there maybe -- like, you know,
4 when we do -- when we ' re getting ready to do a plant start-up
5 on a big waste water plant, there ' s a 14-day operational
6 test . So the contractor has to completely run this waste
7 water facility for 14 days, you know, the city will be there,
8 we ' ll be there, you know, everybody will be there to make
9 sure it ' s meeting it ' s requirements and everything is
10 functioning in accordance with the plant specifications and
11 then after that 14-day period, then the city will come over
12 and take over . I 'm not sure of what the requirements of the
13 specs are, you know, but that ' s typically the type of thing
14 that ' s required, is that you require the operator to prove
15 that that facility is meeting plans and specifications .
16 Q So CPH ' s role at that point, would be more of a
17 consulting should something come up?
18 A Yeah, essentially we would monitor, you know, we
19 would -- we would -- along with the city, we would monitor
20 the -- the operations, we would monitor together with the
21 city, you know, to make sure that it ' s complying with the
22 specifications . You know, and once that ' s completed, we --
23 you know, like I said, we ' re not running it . The contractor
24 is operating the facility and then once that ' s completed, you
25 know, then we would, certify it after we witnessed the
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1 start-up testing.
2 Q And then you mentioned 14 days, is that kind of
3 standard?
4 A No, that ' s a big -- that ' s a very -- that ' s an --
5 that ' s a waste water plant . So typically, probably it could
6 be a thing, you know, it could be less . You wanted a smaller
7 facility, so --
8 Q So on one the size that we ' re working on currently,
9 would that typically logistically take a day or two?
10 A I would think so .
11 Q Okay. Thank you.
12 MR. MCCANN: And Mr . Cannon .
13 BY MR. CANNON:
14 Q Mr . Gierach, I asks a couple of questions of you
15 earlier about had you had any communication with former
16 commissioners, have you had any communications with any of
17 the commissioners seated up here today including myself
18 regarding this plant?
19 A No, sir .
20 Q Not before? Okay. And did you have some
21 communication with Kevin Smith, our former city manager,
22 because he -- if I recall correctly, when he came in and
23 spoke with us in September he said that he had a conversation
24 with you about the plant and that you would stand behind your
25 work or some words to that, and I 'm paraphrasing -- but --
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1 A I -- I don ' t specifically remember talking about
2 the facility. I do remember we talked a little bit about his
3 testimony. I saw him at my daughter ' s Clean Juice -- when
4 she use to go to the Clean Juice in Lake Mary. But I do
5 remember that we talked a little bit about his -- but keep in
6 mind that we ' re also consultants for Lake Mary also --
7 Q Right .
8 A So I would talk to Kevin on a pretty regular basis .
9 Q All right . And then the only other question that I
10 have is that I know that historically our utilities
11 department and city has reached back to CPH when we were
12 having trouble locating plans or some specs from some of the
13 different plants . And that you had documents in your file
14 going back more than just nine or ten years . Would you agree
15 not to purge any of your documentation or files until we can
16 get this matter resolved, in other words, whatever existed
17 from CPH that you will not purge or destroy any of those
18 documents or records that you may have? Are you agreeable to
19 that?
20 MR. HAMNER: They have no reason to deviate from
21 our regular retention policy.
22 MR. CANNON: Yeah, that ' s not the question
23 counselor that I asked him.
24 MR. HAMNER: Yeah . Well, we ' re not going to amke
25 an exception one way or the other .
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1 MR. CANNON: So --
2 MR. HAMNER: There ' s no claim pending. There ' s no
3 litigation holds . There ' s nothing like that . We ' re not
4 going to go delete anything, we ' re also not going to
5 preserve files that we wouldn ' t ordinarily preserve .
6 MR. CANNON: I want to hear from you, Mr . Gierach,
7 what is the official document retention policy of the
8 city -- of -- excuse me, of CPH and does the retention
9 periods vary depending on the type of documents that
10 you ' re talkng about?
11 MR. HAMNER: That ' s beyond the scope of your
12 subpoena . our internal record retention is not part of
13 your subpoena .
14 MR. CANNON: Okay. Well, counselor, you just put
15 it in issue because you ' re objecting .
16 MR. HAMNER: I 'm answering you ' re question, Mr .
17 Cannon, and I don ' t think that objecting to your
18 question puts anything at issue .
19 BY MR. CANNON:
20 Q Okay. So Mr . Gierach, will you answer my question
21 or if you refuse to answer it I ' ll advise that counsel will
22 certify it and then we ' ll take it up at a later date if we
23 need to . Can you tell me what your document retention policy
24 is at CPH?
25 A No, I cannot tell you .
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1 Q Okay.
2 A I cannot tell you . You can talk to my assistant,
3 she can tell you, but I do not know what the specific
4 document --
5 Q And will you agree until we can finish talking with
6 Mr . Zodky and, if necessary, Mr . Goutcher . Will you agree
7 not to destroy any documents that you may have in your files
8 at least until these two men can review it if necessary and
9 help answer some questions .
10 MR. HAMNER: We have answered that question .
11 MR. CANNON: I want to hear it from the witness .
12 MR. HAMNER: You don ' t have to hear it from the
13 witness as counsel is advising you, we will follow our
14 normal record retention policy.
15 MR. CANNON: (CQ) Okay. So, Mr . Gierach, are you
16 going to refuse to answer my question on the advice of
17 counsel?
18 MR. GIERACH : I 'm going to do what my counsel tells
19 me --
20 MR. HAMNER: I 'm not telling not to answer the
21 question, I 'm telling you we ' re going to follow our
22 regular record retention policy.
23 MR. GIERACH : We will follow our regular record
24 retention policy.
25 MR. CANNON: Okay.
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1 MR. GIERACH : Whatever that is .
2 BY MR. CANNON:
3 Q (CQ) And to the extent that the records still exist
4 but maybe outside of your normal purge date, will you agree
5 to hold those records until we review them with Mr . Gourtcher
6 and Mr . Zodky?
7 MR. HAMNER: You can ask it ten different ways Mr .
8 Cannon, it ' s the same answer .
9 Q (CQ) Mr . Gierach, your answer, sir .
10 A I will follow my advice of counsel .
11 MR. CANNON: Certify the last three questions and
12 answers please .
13 THE COURT REPORTER: Okay.
14 MR. CANNON: Okay. Thank you . We ' re just trying
15 to get the information . I think you understand that .
16 MR. GIERACH : I understand that .
17 MR. CANNON: And we don ' t have direct access to
18 your files . We have access to our files but not -- we
19 don ' t have access to memos or whatever that might be in
20 existence at CPH . We ' re just trying to get to the
21 bottom of this . And it ' s not -- it ' s note meant for any
22 other purpose . And you know, it ' s not meant to be a
23 hostile environment here at all, but we ' re searching for
24 facts and information . Okay?
25 MR. HAMNER: Yeah.
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City Commission Special Meeting SECOND CORRECTED
January 31, 2022
1 MR. CANNON: Thank you, sir .
2 MR. HAMNER: And, Mr . Cannon, I heard everyone ' s
3 comments before, we ' re not making claims but I have had
4 people try to ask me that about my records retention
5 policy. I have had people try to ask me about our
6 insurance policies, so it sure doesn ' t sound like all of
7 that dovetails together . And as counsel for my client,
8 I certainly have to protect the bare interest as well .
9 And when you start saying things about asking about
10 insurance and records retention policies, those sure are
11 litigation words in my world. So we ' re not trying to be
12 difficult either, we ' re trying to cooperate . This is a
13 project that ' s nine or ten years old, all right? And
14 you ' re asking us to dig back and talk about records that
15 are that old with two people that have retired, one of
16 them has been retired a long, long time .
17 So I think we ' re going to try to do the best we can
18 and we have no interest whatsoever and hiding anything
19 from them city or keeping anything out of the city
20 purview at a proper request and long standing
21 relationship, and I think that Mr . Gierach made it very
22 clear that based on that long standing relationship, any
23 time an intervening period of the start-up of this
24 plant, any one that called and said, Hey, we ' re having
25 trouble here, CPH has almost a 50-year relationship with
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City Commission Special Meeting SECOND CORRECTED
January 31, 2022
1 the City of Winter Springs, no one is going to ignore
2 that call . Okay. But to come back now nine or ten
3 years later and say, Oh, well, do not purge records and
4 what ' s your insurance policy, put yourself in my shoes,
5 okay? So we ' re not trying to be difficult either, but
6 at the same time I want to protect the interest of my
7 client .
8 MR. CANNON: I think everybody -- I really
9 genuinely really believe that, Mr . Gierach, your company
10 as well as the city, everybody wants to get the most
11 accurate information and you ' re right it goes back
12 several years and none of our city employees, like Mr .
13 Lotcuff, are not with the city anymore, right? So we ' re
14 trying to -- we asked him to come in and he refused to
15 come appear, which made it more difficult, right? We ' re
16 trying to get records and we ' re trying to talk with you
17 and others to try and piece together what had happened.
18 So thank you .
19 MR. HAMNER: We have made Mr . Gierach available to
20 you, we have and some scheduling issues . We were caught
21 flat footed with these subpoenas . Nobody gave us a
22 phone call, nobody made any informal calls . Nobody
23 tried to reach out to CPH and say, Hey, can we talk
24 about this? All of a sudden a subpoena shows up out of
25 nowhere and so since that time, we have been trying to
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City Commission Special Meeting SECOND CORRECTED
January 31, 2022
1 schedule this properly. This was the earliest time we
2 could get . And Mr . Zodky, when he ' s available, he ' ll be
3 available if you need to talk to him. I don ' t know
4 about Mr . Goutcher, he ' s not been on the list of people
5 to subpoena at all . So --
6 MR. MCCANN: We ' ll move one . Commissioner Elliott .
7 BY MR. ELLIOT :
8 Q David, would it be safe to say that over a period
9 of years the water quality in Lake Jesup could have possibly
10 changed?
11 A Certainly .
12 Q I mean, better or worse, it would change over time,
13 it ' s an open body of water .
14 A Yes, sir .
15 Q I mean, I would guess the same thing. And from
16 what the -- conversation with Commissioner Johnson about
17 these start-up periods and these testing periods before
18 things are certified, it appears to me that these -- the real
19 issue were these filters were clogging up more often than
20 they probably should have and they needed to be back washed
21 more often than they should have and that that issue probably
22 would not have appeared during a start-up period, I 'm
23 guessing at this point, but one of these issues did arise
24 it ' s my understanding that no one from the city ever
25 contacted CPH and said hey these filters are needing to be
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