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Home My WebLink About2000 06 12 Other - Document Presented by Micky Grindstaff THIS WAS PRESENTED BY MICKY GRINDSTAFF AT THE JUNE 12,2000 REGULAR MEETING, UNDER: v. PUBLIC HEARINGS PUBLIC HEARINGS B. Community Development Department Requests The Commission Consider A Fourth Reading Of Ordinance 707 Adopting The Proposed Town Center District Boundary And Town Center District Code. /' ,/- " ;. INDEX to PUBLIC HEARINGS and/or WORKSHOPS City of Winter Springs II Schrimsher Volume VI 1. Planning and Zoning Board - IN RE: Special Agenda Items A and B 2. City Commission - Regular Meeting April 24, 2000 -. 3. City Commission - Regular Meeting May 8, 2000 4. City Commission - Regular Meeting May 22, 2000 ### . ORLDOCS 10017812.1 LKF (' ";11 , lmTW Registered Professional Reporter 1 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS PLANNING AND ZONING BOARD LOCAL PLANNING AGENCY 1126 EAST STATE ROAD 434 WINTER SPRINGS, FLORIDA' 'TUESDAY, APRIL 11, 2000 IN RE: SPECIAL AGENDA ITEMS A AND B REPORTED BY JUDITH A. VICK REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTER * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Realtime _.~.,l<<~ers, Inc. J!v,-,',I <:.. :j~ .~. "ci:.t~~<t.. '-'k:'~<~~-';:'A Registered Professional Reporters Certified Video Technicians 1188 Fox Forrest Circle · Apopka, Florida 32712 · (407) 884-4662 · FAX (407) 884-4664 Sandra A. Dawkins, President Professional Reporting Since 1977 I~~I ~.!!tlO' _""'1'=:=... . '. 0> .. ~ g ~ c < " z W 0. . <Xl ::f 0: o ... '" t5 <Xl 0: W (J) :s . 2 1 2 3 APPEARANCES: 4 5 CARL E. STEPHENS, JR., CHAIRMAN MARC CLINCH, MEMBER WILLIAM W. FERNANDEZ, JR., MEMBER TOM BROWN, MEMBER 6 7 THOMAS GRIMMS, AICP, COMPREHENSIVE PLANNING/ZONING COORDINATOR 8 9 MICHAEL J. GRINDSTAFF, ESQUIRE MIKE SCHRIMSHER 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . ~ . ~ ~ ~ ~ Q < 2 w ~ . ~ ~ ~ Q o ~ ~ ~ . 22 24 25 3 1 PRO C E E DIN G S 2 MR. STEPHENS: OKAY. THE FIRST ITEM ON 3 THE AGENDA THE TOWN CENTER LARGE SCALE 4 COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AMENDMENT, LG-CPA-1-99, 5 ORDINANCE 2000-10, ESTABLISHING THE TOWN CENTER. 6 MR. GRIMMS: MR. CHAIRMAN, MEMBERS OF THE 7 BOARD, THIS ITEM, AS YOU MAY REMEMBER, HAS COME 8 BEFORE YOU, I BELIEVE NOVEMBER 30, NOVEMBER 24TH AS 9 A PROPOSED TRANSMITTAL, LARGE SCALE COMPREHENSIVE 10 AMENDMENT THAT WOULD CREATE THE TOWN CENTER 11 DISTRICT BOUNDARIES AND THE VISION, GOALS, 12 OBJECTIVES AND POLICIES FOR THE TOWN CENTER. 13 WE BRING THIS BACK TO YOU TONIGHT BECAUSE WE 14 WANTED YOU TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SEE THE ORC 15 REPORT, WHICH IS INCLUDED IN THE PACKET, MAIL-OUT 16 PACKET, I SENT TO YOU. AND WE HAVE RESPONSES BY 17 OUR CITY CONSULTANT, CONKLIN, PORTER AND HOLMES. 18 THEY HAVE MADE A RESPONSE ALSO TO STAFF IN 19 CONCERT WITH THE -- THE CONSULTANT ALSO HAS MADE 20 RESPONSES ON OTHER ITEMS. THAT'S INCLUDED IN YOUR 21 PACKET. OKAY. WE ARE LOOKING FOR BASICALLY FOR THIS 23 BOARD AS LPA PLANNING AGENCY IN ITS CAPACITY TO REVIEW AND MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS ON THE COMP PLAN AMENDMENTS TO MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE CITY REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. ~. . ~ '" s ~ ~ ~ "' 0. e '" ::Ii a: f2 o ~ '" a: ~ . 24 25 4 1 COMMISSION TO FAVORABLY RECOMMEND THE CITY 2 COMMISSION ADOPT THE LARGE SCALE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN 3 AMENDMENT, LG-CPA-1-99, CREATING THE TOWN CENTER, 4 THE BOUNDARIES, THE VISION, GOALS, OBJECTIVES AND 5 THE POLICIES FOR THAT TOWN CENTER. 6 MR. CHAIRMAN, I RECEIVED -- ACTUALLY AFTER I 7 LEFT WORK TODAY, I RECEIVED A FAX FROM OUR CITY 8 ATTORNEY, AND IF I MAY READ THAT IT IS A 9 TOUCH LENGTHY, BUT I THINK I SHOULD READ IT INTO 10 THE RECORD. 11 IT'S ADDRESSED TO CARL STEPHENS, CHAIRMAN, AND 12 TO THE MEMBERS OF THE LAND PLANNING AGENCY IN THEIR 13 CAPACITY AS WELL OF THE LPA AND IN THEIR CAPACITY 14 AS PLANNING AND ZONING BOARD FOR THE CITY OF WINTER 15 SPRINGS. 16 DEAR MR. STEPHENS AND MEMBERS OF THE BOARD, AT 17 THIS EVENING'S MEETING, THE LAND PLANNING AGENCY 18 SLASH PLANNING AND ZONING BOARD WILL REVIEW 19 PROPOSED ORDINANCE NUMBER 707 AND ORDINANCE NUMBER 20 2000-10. 21 ORDINANCE NUMBER 2000-10 IS THE INSTRUMENT 22 THAT WILL BE PASSED HOPEFULLY BY THE CITY 23 COMMISSION TO ESTABLISH THE TOWN CENTER. AND ORDINANCE 707 IS THE ORDINANCE THAT WOULD INSTITUTE THE TOWN CENTER DISTRICT CODE, I.E., ZONING CODE REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. ~. . '" 10 i$ i;l ~ Sl " z W 0. . III ~ a: Ii' o ~ III ~ . 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 1 FOR THE TOWN CENTER. 2 RELATING TO THE PROPOSED TOWN CENTER, I AM 3 WRITING TO THE LPA IN THE HOPE THAT MY BRIEF 4 COMMENTS WILL HELP EXPEDITE THE LPA'S REVIEW OF THE 5 ORDINANCE, ORDINANCES. 6 FIRST, BOTH ORDINANCES ARE SCHEDULED FOR FINAL 7 ADOPTION BY THE CITY COMMISSION ON APRIL 24TH, 2000 8 AT 6:30 P.M. AS SUCH, I'M GOING TO RESPECTFULLY 9 URGE THE LPA TO MAKE A RECOMMENDATION TO THE CITY 10 COMMISSION THIS EVENING. 11 SECOND, IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING FROM STAFF THAT 12 THE LPA HAS ALREADY REVIEWED AND RECOMMENDED 13 ORDINANCE NUMBER 707. 14 IN ADDITION, THE LPA HAS ALSO REVIEWED AND 15 RECOMMENDED THE PROPOSED COMPREHENSIVE PLAN 16 AMENDMENT FOR THE TOWN CENTER. 17 SINCE THE LPA RECOMMENDED ORDINANCE 707, SEVERAL MINOR AMENDMENTS HAVE BEEN MADE AS SET FORTH BELOW. FURTHER, SINCE THE LPA RECOMMENDED THE PROPOSED COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AMENDMENT FOR THE TOWN CENTER, THE AMENDMENT HAS BEEN PUT INTO ORDINANCE FORM AND SEVERAL MINOR AMENDMENTS HAVE BEEN MADE FOR THE PROPOSED TEXT BASED ON THE OBJECTIONS, RECOMMENDATIONS AND COMMENTS REPORT -- THAT'S THE REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. ". . ~ 'I' ia ~ o " " z W 0. . '" ::i a: ~ o 5 '" a: w '" ~ . 25 6 1 ORC REPORT -- WHICH THE CITY RECEIVED FROM THE 2 FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF COMMUNITY AFFAIRS ON MARCH 3 16TH, 2000. 4 AS SUCH, THE LPA'S ATTENTION THIS EVENING 5 SHOULD PREDOMINATELY BE ON THE MINOR MINUTES, GIVEN 6 THE FACT THAT THE LPA HAS ALREADY RECOMMENDED 7 SUBSTANTIAL PORTIONS OF ORDINANCE NUMBER 707 AND 8 THE TOWN CENTER COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AMENDMENTS. 9 ORDINANCE NUMBER 707: A SUMMARY OF THE 10 AMENDMENTS TO THE ORDINANCE ARE AS FOLLOWS: 11 NUMBER ONE, MINOR TECHNICAL AMENDMENTS WERE MADE TO 12 THE ORDINANCE TO PUT IT INTO THE NEW ORDINANCE 13 FORMAT APPROVED BY THE CITY MANAGER AND CITY 14 COMMISSION. 15 DURING NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE SCHRIMSHER 16 PROPERTIES GROUP, SCHRIMSHER AND THE CITY AGREED 17 THAT PAGE 11 OF THE TOWN CENTER DISTRICT CODE 18 SHOULD BE AMENDED TO REFLECT THE ACTUAL 19 JURISDICTIONAL WETLAND BOUNDARIES OF WETLAND PARK. 20 THEREFORE, THE MAPS ON PAGE 10 THROUGH 18 OF 21 THE TOWN CENTER DISTRICT CODE WERE AMENDED TO 22 REFLECT THE NEW BOUNDARIES OF WETLAND PARK. 23 FURTHER, BECAUSE THE BOUNDARIES OF WETLAND 24 PARK WERE CHANGED, THE STREET AND SMALL NEIGHBORHOOD PARK LAYOUT ON PAGE 11 WAS MODIFIED BY REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. ~. . 113 '" ~ a ~ 51 " z W Q. . '" ~ a: l! c ~ '" a: w (/) ~ . 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 7 1 THE VICTOR DOVER GROUP -- THAT'S THE CITY'S 2 PLANNING CONSULTANTS FOR THE CITY -- WITH INPUT 3 FROM SCHRIMSHER. 4 THE AMENDED PAGE 11 OF THE DISTRICT CODE HAS 5 BEEN USED EXTENSIVELY BY THE CITY AND SCHRIMSHER IN 6 NEGOTIATING THE COMPANION AGREEMENT TO IMPLEMENT 7 THE TOWN CENTER DISTRICT CODE ON SCHRIMSHER'S 8 PROPERTY. 9 ANY AMENDMENTS TO PAGE 11 AND CORRESPONDING 10 MAPS, THEREFORE, COULD SIGNIFICANTLY INTERRUPT THE 11 CITY'S NEGOTIATIONS WITH SCHRIMSHER. 12 THEREFORE, I RESPECTFULLY REQUEST THAT THE LPA 13 RECOMMEND THE TOWN CENTER DISTRICT CODE AND 14 ORDINANCE NUMBER 707 TO THE CITY COMMISSION AS 15 CURRENTLY DRAFTED. 16 ORDINANCE NUMBER 2000-10: THE PROPOSED BOUNDARIES OF THE TOWN CENTER FUTURE LAND USE DESIGNATION ARE UNCHANGED FROM THE LPA'S PREVIOUS RECOMMENDATION DURING THE TRANSMITTAL STAGE OF THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AMENDMENT PROCESS. HOWEVER, SEVERAL ADDITIONAL MINOR CHANGES TO THE PROPOSED TOWN CENTER COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AMENDMENT WERE MADE TO ADDRESS DCA'S - - THAT'S THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMUNITY AFFAIRS -- ORC REPORT. THE ADDITIONAL TEXT AMENDMENTS HAVE BEEN REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. ~. . ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ w ~ . ~ ~ ~ ~ o 5 ~ ~ w ~ . 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8 1 SUBMITTED TO DCA FOR AN INFORMAL REVIEW BEFORE 2 ADOPTION. 3 ON MONDAY, APRIL 10TH, 2000, DCA INFORMED ME 4 THAT THE ADDITIONAL TEXT AMENDMENTS APPEAR TO 5 ADDRESS DCA'S CONCERNS SET FORTH IN THE ORC REPORT. 6 A SUMMARY OF THE CHANGES TO THE TOWN CENTER 7 COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AMENDMENT SINCE THE LPA LAST 8 REVIEWED THIS AMENDMENT ARE AS FOLLOWS: 9 NUMBER ONE: THE PROPOSED TEXT AMENDMENTS AND 10 THE FUTURE LAND USE MAP AMENDMENT HAVE BEEN PLACED 11 INTO ORDINANCE FORM. 12 TWO: ADDITIONAL CHANGES TO THE PROPOSED TEXT 13 AMENDMENT WERE MADE TO OBJECTIVE B AS FOLLOWS: 5, 14 PARENTHESES. STRUCK OUT, UNLESS MITIGATED IN 15 ACCORDANCE WITH LAW AND PURSUANT TO A DEVELOPMENT 16 PERMIT ISSUED BY THE CITY AND OTHER JURISDICTIONAL GOVERNMENTAL AGENCIES. THAT HAS BEEN STRUCK OUT. THEN A NEW SENTENCE STARTS WITH CAPITALIZATION. WETLANDS, W. WETLANDS SHALL BE PRESERVED AS CONSERVATION PRESERVE AREAS, PARKS, SQUARES AND TRAILS. TO THE EXTENT FEASIBLE, THIS AREA -- THESE AREAS SHALL BE CONNECTED TO PROMOTE THE NATURAL DRAINAGE AND ECOLOGICAL VIABILITY OF THE TOWN CENTER AND TO FURTHER HOLD THE CITY'S DESIGNATION AS A TREE CITY, U.S.A. REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . . ~ ~ ~ o < ~ w ~ . ~ 2 ~ o ~ o ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ . 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9 1 WHAT IS ADDED, JURISDICTIONAL WETLANDS LOCATED 2 WITHIN THE TOWN CENTER SHALL BE DESIGNATED 3 CONSERVATION ON FUTURE LAND USE MAPS AND SHALL BE 4 SUBJECT TO THE GOALS, OBJECTIVES AND POLICIES OF 5 THE CONSERVATION ELEMENT OF THE CITY'S 6 COMPREHENSIVE PLAN. 7 6 IN PARENTHESES. THIS IS ADDED. WHENEVER 8 TEXT IS UNDERLINED, THAT MEANS ADDED. WHENEVER IT 9 IS STRUCK THROUGH, THAT MEANS DELETED. 10 HIGH RESIDENTIAL DENSITY SHALL BE PERMITTED IN 11 THE TOWN CENTER THROUGH THE ADOPTION OF LAND 12 DEVELOPMENT REGULATIONS, BUT SUCH DENSITY SHALL NOT 13 EXTEND THIRTY-NINE UNITS PER ACRE. 14 7, PARENTHESES. THIS IS ADDED. HIGH DENSITY AND INTENSE COMMERCIAL DEVELOPMENT SHALL BE ALLOWED IN THE TOWN CENTER THROUGH THE ADOPTION OF LAND DEVELOPMENT REGULATIONS, BUT SUCH DENSITY AND INTENSITY SHALL NOT EXCEED A FLOOR AREA RATIO OF SIX AND A BUILDING HEIGHT OF SIXTY-FIVE FEET. 8 IN PARENTHESES. THIS STATEMENT IS ADDED: THE CITY SHALL CREATE A MINIMUM MIX OF LAND USES IN THE TOWN CENTER AS FOLLOWS: A IN PARENTHESES. RETAIL SHALL EQUAL FORTY PERCENT TO EIGHTY PERCENT. B IN PARENTHESES. COMMERCIAL OFFICE EQUAL ZERO TO TWENTY PERCENT. REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . . g ~ ~ ~ ~ c < ~ z w ~ . ~ 2 ~ ~ C ~ ~ ~ w 3 . 17 18 19 20 21 ~2 23 24 25 10 1 AND C IN PARENTHESES. RESIDENTIAL EQUAL TEN 2 PERCENT TO FIFTY PERCENT. 3 3. SUPPORTING DATA ANALYSIS REGARDING SEWER, 4 WATER, STORM WATER AND TRANSPORTATION ISSUES RAISED 5 IN DCA'S ORC REPORT WAS PROVIDED BY THE CITY'S 6 TRANSPORTATION AND UTILITIES CONSULTANT, TERRY 7 SAUZKE OF CONKLIN, PORTER AND HOLMES ENGINEERS, 8 INCORPORATED. 9 IT IS WORTH NOTING THAT ALTHOUGH DCA DESIRED 10 THE CITY TO STRIKE THE BEGINNING MITIGATION 11 LANGUAGE IN OBJECTIVE B PERIOD, PARENTHESES 5, END 12 PARENTHESES, AND TO THE JURISDICTIONAL WETLANDS TO 13 THE CONSERVATION ELEMENT, THE LANGUAGE CHANGE, IN 14 MY VIEW, MAY NOT HAVE ANY PRACTICAL EFFECT. 15 FOR EXAMPLE, THE CONSERVATION EASEMENTS ALLOWS 16 INSTALLATION OF INFRASTRUCTURE AND UTILITIES ACROSS CONSERVATION LANDS. SEE CONSERVATION ELEMENT, OBJECTIVE B, PARENTHESES 3, END PARENTHESES. IT ALSO PROVIDES FOR THE FILL OF WETLANDS. SEE OBJECTIVE C, PARENTHESES 5, END PARENTHESES, PARENTHESES E, END PARENTHESES. AND THE ALTERATION AND REPLACEMENT OF WETLANDS. SEE OBJECTIVE C, PARENTHESES 5, END PARENTHESES, PARENTHESES F, END PARENTHESES. I WOULD THEREFOR RECOMMEND THAT THE LOCAL REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . . m ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ z w ~ e ~ ~ ~ o ~ Q ~ ~ ~ w ~ . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 11 1 PLANNING AGENCY RECOMMEND ORDINANCE 2000-10 TO THE 2 CITY COMMISSION. 3 SIGNED ANTHONY GARGANESE, CITY ATTORNEY FOR 4 THE CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS. 5 MR. CHAIRMAN, I HAVE INCLUDED HIS LATEST 6 VERSION OF ORDINANCE NUMBER 2000-10 AND ORDINANCE 7 NUMBER 707 FOR YOUR REVIEW. 8 MR. CHAIRMAN. 9 MR. STEPHENS: OKAY. DISCUSSION FROM THE 10 BOARD. WE HAVE A MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC WHO WANTS TO 11 ADDRESS THIS PARTICULAR ITEM AS WELL. WOULD THIS 12 BE A GOOD TIME? 13 MR. GRIMMS: GOOD TIME. 14 MR. STEPHENS: TERRY SCARLOTTA, IF YOU 15 WOULD APPROACH AND PLEASE GIVE YOUR NAME AND 16 ADDRESS. 17 TERRY SCARLOTTA: THANK YOU. TERRY 18 SCARLOTTA, 1006 NANCY CIRCLE, WINTER SPRINGS. I BROUGHT THIS UP BEFORE A CITY COMMISSION MEETING. I JUST DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH WAS DONE SINCE THEN. I HAVE BROUGHT UP MY CONCERN THAT WHEN YOU DO A TOWN CENTER DISTRICT, ONE OF THE THINGS REPORTED IN THE NEWSPAPER IS THAT YOU ARE CHANGING THE RECREATIONAL ZONING. ALSO, I'M IN THE PROCESS OF REVIEWING HOW WE REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. \. . ~ ~ iZ ~ c < " z "' ll. . <Xl ~ c: Ii' ~ <Xl ~ . 15 16 1.7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 1 HAVE LOST RECREATIONAL LANDS IN WINTER SPRINGS IN 2 THE LAST TEN TO FIFTEEN YEARS. I DO KNOW FROM OUR 3 CONVERSATION AT THE CITY COMMISSION MEETING THAT MY 4 CONCERN IS CENTRAL WINDS PARK, AND I WANT TO MAKE 5 SURE THAT IT STAYS CENTRAL WINDS PARK, RECREATIONAL 6 USE, TEN, TWENTY, THIRTY YEARS DOWN THE ROAD. 7 JUDGING BY THE WAY THE CITY IS OPERATING WITH 8 RECREATIONAL LANDS AND OPEN SPACE IN THE LAST TEN 9 YEARS, I DON'T HAVE A LOT OF CONFIDENCE IN THE 10 COMPREHENSIVE PLAN BEING THE ONLY TOE-HOLD THAT YOU 11 HAVE ON KEEPING CENTRAL WINDS PARK RECREATIONAL. 12 WHEN YOU DO THIS TOWN CENTER DISTRICT CHANGE, 13 YOU ARE CHANGING IT FROM RECREATIONAL TO BASICALLY 14 SOMETHING THAT CAN BE GENERALIZED AS MULTI-USE AND MIXED USE AND VARIOUS -- A GENERIC THING. THE ONLY THING THAT'S GOING TO KEEP CENTRAL WINDS PARK CENTRAL WINDS PARK IS THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN. AND WHAT I'M ASKING YOU AND WHAT I ASKED THE CITY COMMISSION IS IS THERE ANY WAY -- ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN, LIKE A DEDICATION OR SOMETHING OF THAT NATURE, THAT CAN BE DONE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE PUBLIC AT LEAST GET A CHANCE TO STEP IN AND KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING BEFORE IT HAPPENS, RATHER THAN THE THINGS THAT -- RATHER REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. &.. . ~ I ~ ~ . ell ~ Ii? ~ ~ . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 1 THAN WE REPEAT THE MISTAKES OF THE PAST WHERE WE 2 HAVE IN THE PAST GIVEN AWAY LAND AT A PLANNING AND 3 ZONING BOARD MEETING AND IT DIDN'T EVEN GO TO A 4 CITY COMMISSION MEETING. 5 THAT'S THE REASON WHY I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT 6 THOSE MISTAKES AREN'T REPEATED. 7 MR. GRIMMS: MR. CHAIRMAN AND MEMBERS OF 8 THE BOARD, I APPRECIATE MISS SCARLOTTA'S CONCERN. 9 CENTRAL WINDS PARK IS A CROWN JEWEL OF THE 10 RECREATION ELEMENT AND RECREATION EFFORT FOR THE 11 CITY. IN FACT, IT'S A VERY SIGNIFICANT 12 RECREATIONAL FACILITY HERE IN CENTRAL FLORIDA. 13 MYSELF I CAN'T IMAGINE, YOU KNOW HOW DOWN THE 14 ROAD THEY WOULD BE ELIMINATING IT OR SIGNIFICANTLY 15 REDUCING IT. 16 I MIGHT OBSERVE, THOUGH, THAT WE ARE NOW IN THE 17 PROCESS OF APPLYING FOR A GRANT TO THE OFFICE OF 18 GREENWAYS AND TRAILS, WHICH IS PART OF THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMUNITY AFFAIRS, FOR APPROXIMATELY TWO MILLION DOLLARS TO ACQUIRE THE PARKER PROPERTY, WHICH IS ADJACENT TO, AT THE SOUTHWEST PART OF CENTRAL WINDS PARK. AND THAT, FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES, WOULD BECOME PART OF CENTRAL WINDS PARK, AND THAT WOULD ENCOMPASS THE PROPOSED TRAIL HEAD FOR THE CROSS REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. .~. . i <;> s ~ ~ w .. . '" ::IE a: ~ ~ ~ . 24 25 14 1 SEMINOLE TRAIL AT THAT POINT THERE NEAR THE PRESENT 2 ENTRANCE TO THE PARK. 3 ALSO, WE WANT TO ACQUIRE, WITH THE GRANT 4 MONIES, IMMEDIATELY SOUTH OF THAT, ALSO CALLED 5 WAGNER'S CURVE, THE AREA THAT IS BETWEEN THE 6 PRESENT SMOOTH CURVE OF 434 AND THE OLD ROAD BED OF 7 STATE ROAD 434. AS YOU REMEMBER, IT ANGLED MORE 8 ACUTELY PREVIOUSLY. 9 AND THAT AREA WE ALSO WOULD WANT TO ACQUIRE AS 10 PART OF -- EFFECTIVELY AS PART OF THE PARK. AND IT 11 WOULD OFFER A SIGNIFICANT GREEN SPACE BUFFER FOR 12 THE TRAIL, BETWEEN THE TRAIL AND THE SMOOTH CURVE. 13 MYSELF, KNOWING WHAT'S GOING ON, I CAN SEE, IF 14 ANYTHING, CENTRAL WINDS PARK IS EFFECTIVELY GOING 15 TO GROW IN THAT AREA. BUT I I'M VERY CONFIDENT 16 THAT CENTRAL WINDS PARK IS GOING TO REMAIN VIABLE. 17 CERTAINLY IN ITS PRESENT AREA EXTENT AND FACILITY 18 COMPLIMENT. 19 AND, IN FACT, AS I JUST MENTIONED, I THINK 20 IT'S EFFECTIVELY GOING TO GROW OUTWARD, OUTWARD 21 SOUTHWESTWARD. 22 BUT BEYOND THAT, I HAVE, YOU KNOW, NO CONCERN 23 OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT, OR OTHER OBSERVATIONS. THIS BOARD CERTAINLY, IF IT WISHES TO, CAN MAKE EMPHASIS IN ITS RECOMMENDATION THAT THEIR DESIRE TO SEE REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. ~. . ! ~ g ~ ~ w ~ . ~ ~ ~ Q ~ ~ . 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 1 CENTRAL WINDS PARK REMAIN IN ITS PRESENT AREA 2 EXTENT AND FACILITY COMPLIMENT. 3 I HAVE NO DIFFICULTY WITH THAT. 4 MR. CHAIRMAN. 5 MR. STEPHENS: OKAY. ANY BOARD MEMBERS 6 LIKE TO RESPOND TO THAT ITEM? 7 WE ALSO HAVE A COUPLE MORE REQUESTS FROM THE 8 PUBLIC. MIKE SCHRIMSHER, PLEASE. 9 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I'M GOING TO LET MICKY 10 GO. 11 MR. GRINDSTAFF: THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN. 12 MY NAME IS MICHAEL GRINDSTAFF, MICKY GRINDSTAFF. 13 I'M AN ATTORNEY WITH THE LAW FIRM OF SHUTTS AND 14 BOWEN. ADDRESS IS 20 NORTH ORANGE AVENUE, SUITE 15 1000, ORLANDO, FLORIDA, 32801. 16 I REPRESENT -- OUR FIRM REPRESENTS THE SCHRIMSHER FAMILY AND THE SCHRIMSHER GROUP, THE VARIOUS SCHRIMSHER ENTITIES SOMETIMES REFERRED TO AS THE SCHRIMSHER GROUP OR THE SCHRIMSHERS HERE. WITH THE EXCEPTION OF COMMISSIONER CLINCH, I THINK Y'ALL HAVE HEARD HOURS AND HOURS AND HOURS ON THIS TOPIC, DATING BACK TO -- I THINK IT WAS NOVEMBER OF 1998 WHEN WE FIRST SPOKE. I HAVE WITH US -- WITH ME TONIGHT A TRANSCRIPT OF THAT HEARING, WHICH I THINK TOOK ABOUT THREE AND REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. ~. . ~ <;> &i ~ 51 ~ '" 0. . ell ::i a: o u. C g a: ~ . 16 1 A HALF HOURS. AND I KNOW THAT WAS ON THE - - WHEN 2 THE ORDINANCE WENT THROUGH, THE TOWN CENTER 3 ORDINANCE WENT THROUGH THE FIRST TIME, THROUGH THE 4 LPA ON ITS WAY TO THE BOARD, THE CITY COMMISSION. 5 AND THEN SOMETIME LATE LAST YEAR, WE HAD A 6 SPECIAL SESSION, EMERGENCY, URGENT, ASAP MEETING 7 WHERE WE ALL GOT TOGETHER AND Y'ALL LOOKED AT THE 8 TOWN CENTER COMP PLAN AMENDMENT AND WE HAD SEVERAL 9 -- MAYBE A COUPLE HOURS MEETING. COMMISSIONER 10 FERNANDEZ RECALLS SPECIFICALLY THE MOTION THAT WAS 11 MADE BACK IN NOVEMBER OF 1998 HAVING TO DO WITH THE 12 SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY AND RECOMMENDING THE ORDINANCE 13 GO FORWARD UP TO THE CITY COUNCIL. 14 IN A FEW MINUTES, I WOULD LIKE TO GO BACK AND 15 JUST SORT OF REVISIT THAT RECOMMENDATION BECAUSE 16 NOT A WHOLE LOT HAS CHANGED SINCE THEN. 17 FIRST I WOULD LIKE TO SAY FOR THE RECORD THAT 18 IN CASE YOU GUYS DON'T KNOW THIS, THE NOTICE FOR 19 THIS MEETING AS LPA, NOT P&Z BUT LPA, WAS PUBLISHED 20 YESTERDAY IN THE SENTINEL. IT WAS PREPARED ON 21 FRIDAY OR SATURDAY. 22 I'VE HEARD CONFLICTING REPORTS ON THAT. ONE 23 FROM THE CLERK SAID SATURDAY, AND THE CITY ATTORNEY 24 SAID IT WAS FRIDAY. 25 BUT IN ANY EVENT, WE LITERALLY STUMBLED REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . ~ . ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ w ~ . m 2 ~ o ~ m ~ . 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 1 ACROSS THE NOTICE OF THIS MEETING LAST NIGHT WHILE 2 HERE FOR AN EXTENDED MEETING WITH THE CITY , 3 COMMISSION ON THE COLLECTIVE TOWN CENTER ISSUES. 4 WE OBJECT TO THAT NOTICE. WE THINK THAT THAT 5 NOTICE WAS NOT PROPER. AND EVEN IF IT WERE PROPER, 6 IT WAS EXTREMELY UNFAIR WHEN YOU'VE GOT A PROPERTY 7 OWNER LIKE THE SCHRIMSHERS WHO WE HAVE BEEN OUT 8 HERE ALMOST ON A WEEKLY BASIS FOR ALMOST DAYS AT A 9 TIME. 10 AND ALL WE NEEDED WAS A SIMPLE, HEY, GUYS, 11 THERE'S A MEETING COMING UP, INSTEAD OF SOMEWHAT 12 CLANDESTINE -- WHAT APPEARS TO BE CLANDESTINE 13 EFFORTS TO GIVE NOTICE OR LIMITED NOTICE, IN OUR 14 OPINION. WE STRONGLY OBJECT TO THAT NOTICE. 15 HAVING SAID THAT FOR THE RECORD, IT'S TIME TO 16 MOVE ON. WE HAVE WORKED HARD WITH CITY STAFF AND 17 WITH THE CITY COMMISSION ON THE TOWN CENTER ORDINANCE, AS WELL AS THE COMP PLAN AMENDMENT. WE DID NOT KNOW WHAT THE ORC REPORT WAS. WE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THE DCA HAD RESPONDED WITH THEIR LETTER OF MARCH 16TH, 2000 UNTIL LAST NIGHT WHEN WE HEARD ABOUT THIS MEETING. WE HAVE NOT HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO REVIEW THIS ORDINANCE BEFORE LAST NIGHT WHEN ANTHONY GAVE US A COPY AT THAT MEETING. AND ACCORDINGLY, WE, YOU REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. ~. . m '" 'I' I o < " z W 0.. . '" ::f a: 12 o ~ '" ~ . 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 18 1 KNOW, REALLY DON'T APPRECIATE THAT. 2 TODAY I HAVE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK WITH 3 ANTHONY TO EXPRESS OUR CONCERNS. HE HAS PROVIDED 4 ME WITH A COPY OF THE LETTER THAT MR. GRIMMS JUST 5 READ INTO THE RECORD, AND WE UNDERSTAND THAT. 6 WE CONTINUE TO OBJECT TO THE TOWN CENTER CODE 7 AND TO THE -- THE ISSUE RIGHT NOW IS THE COMP PLAN. 8 I WILL JUST RESTATE THESE, OR IF IT'S ALL RIGHT 9 WITH Y'ALL, WE WILL JUST ALLOW THESE COMMENTS WE 10 ARE MAKING NOW TO STAND FOR THE TOWN CENTER CODE AS 11 WELL WHEN YOU GET TO THAT. 12 WE OBJECT TO THE ADOPTION OF THE AMENDMENT TO 13 THE COMP PLAN AMENDMENT CREATING A TOWN CENTER 14 DISTRICT AND ITS COMPANION CODE UNLESS THE 15 COMPANION AGREEMENT THAT MR. FERNANDEZ REFERRED TO 16 BACK IN 1998 IS ENTERED INTO CONCURRENTLY WITH 17 THOSE TWO ORDINANCES. WE ARE WORKING TOWARDS THAT END. WE ANTICIPATE BEING ABLE TO DO THAT ON APRIL 24TH IF WE CAN AGREE UPON LANGUAGE THAT -- ON ISSUES WE THINK WE HAVE CONCEPTUALLY AGREED UPON. WE NEED TO AGREE UPON LANGUAGE IN THAT AGREEMENT, AND IF WE ARE ABLE TO DO THAT, WE WILL GO FORWARD. OTHERWISE, WE DON'T HAVE SUCH A COMPANION REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . . m ~ ~ ~ o < " z W 0.. . '" ::f a: o ~ o ~ '" ~ . 22 23 24 25 19 1 AGREEMENT AND WE WILL STRONGLY OBJECT TO BOTH THE 2 TOWN CENTER COMP PLAN AMENDMENT, AS WELL AS THE 3 TOWN CENTER ORDINANCE. 4 I WOULD LIKE TO JUST READ AN EXCERPT FROM A 5 MOTION THAT WAS MADE -- I BELIEVE IT WAS BACK IN 6 NOVEMBER OF 1998 WHEN THIS THING FIRST WENT 7 FORWARD. ACTUALLY, THE FIRST HEARING I WAS AT WAS 8 NOVEMBER 8TH, 1998. THE MOTION WAS MADE ON 9 DECEMBER THE 2ND AT P & Z IN 1998. IT WAS DECEMBER 10 THE 2ND. 11 THIS WAS COMMISSIONER FERNANDEZ AFTER ABOUT 12 TWO OR THREE HOURS OF HEARING, WHICH FOLLOWED I 13 THINK A COUPLE HOURS OF HEARING BACK IN THE 14 PRECEDING MONTH BEFORE THAT. 15 ALL RIGHT. I MAKE A MOTION THAT WE RECOMMEND 16 APPROVAL OF THE TOWN CENTER DISTRICT DESIGN CODES 17 TO THE CITY COMMISSION BASED ON FINDINGS THAT OUR 18 LOCAL GOVERNMENT SHOULD ARTICULATE A VISION OF THE 19 FUTURE, PHYSICAL APPEARANCE AND QUALITY OF THIS 20 COMMUNITY, YET WE HAVE RECEIVED A MEANINGFUL PUBLIC 21 PARTICIPATION AT VARIOUS MEETINGS THAT WE DO NEED TO HAVE AN IDENTIFIED TOWN CENTER. I WILL FURTHER INDICATE OR ADD TO THAT, JUST AS TOWN CENTER OVERLAY ZONING DISTRICT REGULATIONS OF SEPTEMBER 8TH, 1997, ORDINANCE NUMBER 676, WAS REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. ~. . m ~ ~ ~ o < ~ W 0.. . '" ::f a: o ~ o ~ III ~ . 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 20 1 MADE INAPPLICABLE TO THE SCHRIMSHER PROPERTIES 2 UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT WAS 3 DEVELOPED, THAT IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, THAT I 4 WOULD RECOMMEND THAT THE CITY COMMISSION MAKE THIS 5 TOWN CENTER DISTRICT CODE INAPPLICABLE TO THE 6 SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY, AS WELL AS TO THE LET ME 7 GET THE GENTLEMAN'S PROPERTY DESCRIPTION HERE 8 THE SPRINGLAND INVESTMENT, LIMITED, JESSUP SHORES, 9 LIMITED, AND EURO AMERICAN INVESTORS GROUP, 10 REPRESENTED BY SUNBELT INVESTORS GROUP, MR. A. C. 11 LEERDAM -- THAT IT BE INAPPLICABLE UNTIL SUCH TIME 12 AS A DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT IS NEGOTIATED WITH THOSE 13 PARTIES, AND/OR THE PROPERTY IS PURCHASED BY A 14 MASTER DEVELOPER. I WOULD NOTE FOR THE RECORD THAT SINCE WE ARE ACTING IN OUR CAPACITY AS LOCAL PLANNING AGENCY ON A BROAD SCALE AS OPPOSED TO A SINGLE PARCEL, THAT WE DO NOT NEED TO MAKE A DETAILED FINDINGS OF FACT THAT ARE REQUIRED WHEN WE ARE DEALING WITH A VERY SMALL PARCEL OF PROPERTY, ALTHOUGH I HAVE INCLUDED IN MY MOTION GENERAL FINDINGS OF FACT, INCLUDING THE REPRESENTATION OF ALL THOSE WHO HAVE COME FORWARD AND SPOKEN THIS EVENING, INCLUDING MR. SCHRIMSHER AND MR. -- I KNOW I'M NOT PRONOUNCING HIS NAME CORRECT -- MR. LEERDAM, AS REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . ~ . m '" 'I' ~ ~ ~ z W 0.. . III ::f a: 12 o ~ '" a: ~ . 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 21 1 WELL AS MR. GRINDSTAFF, MICHAEL GRINDSTAFF. THAT'S 2 MY MOTION. 3 IT WAS SECONDED BY MISS KARR. AND IT PASSED 4 UNANIMOUSLY THAT NIGHT. 5 SIMPLY PUT, GENTLEMEN, NOTHING HAS CHANGED IN 6 OUR POSITION REGARDING THIS AGREEMENT, THE 7 DEVELOPER'S AGREEMENT. 8 WE ARE ASKING THAT IF YOU DO RECOMMEND THIS 9 FOR APPROVAL AGAIN, THAT YOU DO SO WITH THE SAME 10 CONDITIONS THAT THEN GO FORWARD WITH THE 11 REQUIREMENT OF AN AGREEMENT FOR THE SCHRIMSHER 12 PROPERTY AND THE OTHER PROPERTIES INVOLVED. 13 I WOULD BE HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS. I 14 KNOW THAT THERE WERE SOME REVISIONS MADE, AND I 15 THINK THIS IS PROBABLY THE ONLY,REAL NEW TOPIC WE'D 16 LIKE TO DISCUSS, AND I'LL BE HAPPY TO WAIT UNTIL 17 THEY ARE ABLE TO LISTEN. THE ONLY THE NEW ITEM THAT WE'D LIKE TO DISCUSS THAT PROVIDES LANGUAGE IN THE MITIGATION SECTION THAT WAS STRUCK, THE SCHRIMSHER PROPERTIES DO HAVE WETLANDS, SOME SIGNIFICANT WETLANDS UP IN THE NORTHEAST CORNER OF WHAT WOULD BE THE TOWN CENTER, AND THEN SOME SMALLER WETLANDS DOWN AROUND ON 434. IT IS OUR UNDERSTANDING, BASED UPON REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. ,. . 8l '" 'I' ia ~ o < " z W 0.. . '" ::f a: 12 o ~ '" a: w '" :s . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 22 1 MR. GARGANESE'S LETTER -- AND WE'D LIKE TO HAVE 2 SOME DISCUSSION WITH YOU GUYS -- THAT MITIGATION OF 3 SOME OF THOSE WETLANDS IS STILL POSSIBLE. 4 THERE'S NO EXPECTATION OF DEVELOPING 5 MITIGATION -- OR WETLANDS UP IN THE NORTHEAST 6 CORNER OF THE TOWN CENTER. 7 THOSE LANDS MIGHT EVEN BE SUBJECTED TO A 8 PERMANENT CONSERVATION EASEMENT AND USED TO 9 MITIGATE PROPERTIES ELSEWHERE BY PUTTING THAT 10 PERMANENT CONSERVATION EASEMENT ON THAT TYPE OF 11 PROPERTY. 12 BUT DOWN RIGHT ON 434, THERE MIGHT BE SOME 13 LITTLE FINGERS OF WETLANDS THAT THE SCHRIMSHER 14 PROPERTIES, THE SCHRIMSHER GROUP, MAY WANT TO 15 MITIGATE IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE LAW BY ST. JOHN'S 16 WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT AND ALL APPLICABLE LAWS. 17 I BELIEVE MR. GARGANESE TRIED TO POINT THAT 18 OUT, THAT THAT WAS STILL POSSIBLE IN THE LAST PARAGRAPH OF HIS LETTER. AND IF ANY OF YOU BOARD MEMBERS DISAGREE WITH THAT, I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE A GOOD DISCUSSION ABOUT THAT WITH YOU TONIGHT IF THAT'S ALL RIGHT WITH YOU ALL. WITH THAT SAID, I HAVE NOTHING ELSE ON THE COMP PLAN AMENDMENT. THANK YOU, SIR. MR. STEPHENS: OKAY. THANK YOU. ANY REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . . '" ~ '" 'I' ia ~ o < ~ W 0.. . '" ::f a: o ~ o ~ '" a: w '" :s . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 23 1 COMMENTS FROM THE BOARD ON THE STATEMENTS? ANY 2 COMMENTS? 3 MR. SCHRIMSHER, WOULD YOU LIKE TO SPEAK AT 4 ALL? DO YOU WANT TO SPEAK? 5 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I'M MIKE SCHRIMSHER, 600 6 EAST COLONIAL DRIVE, SUITE 100, ORLANDO, FLORIDA, 7 32803. 8 I WOULD JUST REPEAT WHAT MR. GRINDSTAFF SAID, 9 THAT THERE IS A POSSIBILITY THAT SOME OF OUR 10 WETLANDS, ESPECIALLY THE NORTHEAST PART OF THE TOWN 11 CENTER, COULD BE USED TO MITIGATE FOR THE 12 PROPERTIES ELSEWHERE. 13 AND IN PARTICULAR, RIGHT ALONG STATE ROAD 434 14 EAST OF THE TRAIL, THE NEW ALIGNMENT OF THE TRAIL, 15 THERE WOULD BE A POTENTIAL FOR MINOR MITIGATION OF 16 SOME WETLANDS. 17 WE JUST NEED TO CONFIRM WITH THE CITY'S 18 ATTORNEY OR WHOEVER THAT THAT IS ALL STILL POSSIBLE AND ACCEPTABLE. THE MAIN THING I WANTED TO ADD TO WHAT MICKY SAID WAS IN THE LANGUAGE OF THE COMP PLAN AMENDMENT, THERE IS REFERENCE TO THE MIX OF LAND USES IN THE TOWN CENTER, AND AS MICKY MENTIONED, WE JUST SAW THIS LAST NIGHT. THE VERSION OF THIS COMP PLAN AMENDMENT THAT'S REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . . ~ 'I' ia ~ ~ " z W 0.. . '" ::f a: o ~ o ~ '" a: w S . 20 21 22 23 24 25 24 1 IN THE NOTEBOOK OUT IN THE LOBBY IS A LITTLE 2 DIFFERENT THAN THIS, AND I UNDERSTAND THIS TO BE 3 THE MOST UP-TO-THE-MINUTE ONE. 4 IT'S ON PAGE 6 OF 8. IT IS UNDER CAPITAL 5 LETTER B AND NUMBER 8, WHICH WAS UNDER THE HEADING 6 OF OBJECTIVES. 7 ANYWAY, IT SAYS THE CITY SHALL CREATE A 8 MINIMUM MIX OF LAND USES IN THE TOWN CENTER AS 9 FOLLOWS: A, RETAIL, FORTY PERCENT TO EIGHTY 10 PERCENT. B, COMMERCIAL OFFICE, ZERO PERCENT TO 11 TWENTY PERCENT. AND C, RESIDENTIAL, TEN PERCENT TO 12 FIFTY PERCENT. 13 IT JUST SEEMS TO ME TO BE CLARIFIED IF THE 14 LAND, WHEN YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT PERCENTAGE, IF YOU 15 ARE TALKING ABOUT PERCENTAGE OF THE ENTIRE LAND IN 16 THE TOWN CENTER AS A WHOLE OR ANY GIVEN AREA, ONE 17 REASON THAT'S A CONCERN TO US IS, FOR EXAMPLE, IF 18 IT'S APPLIED TO THE AREA AS A WHOLE, THEORETICALLY 19 WHAT COULD OCCUR IS ALL THE RETAIL GET BUILT, SAY, ON THE WEST SIDE AND THEN THE ONLY THINGS THAT'S AVAILABLE THAT ARE ALLOWED TO BE BUILT ON THE EAST SIDE ARE OFFICE OR RESIDENTIAL. ANOTHER CONCERN IS THE WORDING OF MINIMUM MIX AND THEN USING A RANGE. I DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS, TO SAY A MINIMUM MIX OF FORTY TO EIGHTY REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . . 8l '" 'I' I ~ ~ W 0.. . '" ::f ~ ~ '" a: ~ . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 25 1 PERCENT. 2 SEEMS LIKE A MIX OF -- IS FORTY PERCENT THE 3 MINIMUM OR IS EIGHTY PERCENT THE MINIMUM. I GUESS 4 FORTY IS. DOES IT -- IS IT TRYING TO SAY THAT 5 EIGHTY PERCENT IS THE MAXIMUM? IT JUST SEEMS LIKE 6 THAT NEEDS TO BE CLARIFIED. 7 AND WHEN IT TALKS ABOUT PERCENTAGES, IS IT 8 TALKING ABOUT LAND USED OR BUILDING AREA ON THE 9 LAND. 10 IN OTHER WORDS, IS IT SO MANY SQUARE FEET OF 11 RETAIL VERSUS SO MANY SQUARE FEET OF OFFICE SPACE 12 OR IS IT SO MANY SQUARE FEET OF LAND ON WHICH A 13 RETAIL BUILDING SITS, SO MANY SQUARE FEET OF LAND 14 ON WHICH AN OFFICE BUILDING SITS. 15 I THINK IT'S GOOD THAT THE ORIGINAL DRAFT OR 16 THE EARLIER DRAFT THAT I SAW HAD A SINGLE 17 PERCENTAGE. IT SAID A MINIMUM. AND I THINK IT'S 18 GOOD PROBABLY TO HAVE A RANGE TO ALLOW AS MUCH FLEXIBILITY IN THIS AS POSSIBLE. IN THE EARLY DAYS OF THIS, IT PROBABLY WON'T SEEM THAT CRITICAL, BUT AS YOU MOVE TOWARDS THE BUILD-OUT OF THAT AREA, TO AVOID, YOU KNOW, HAVING TO GO FOR SOME KIND OF A COMP PLAN AMENDMENT OR SOMETHING TO KEEP THESE -- THE RANGE BIG ENOUGH TO REALLY ALLOW FOR THE POSSIBILITY OF WHAT HAPPENS, REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . . ~ 'I' ia ~ ~ ~ W 0.. . III ::f a: f2 o ~ ~ . 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 1 WHAT MAY HAPPEN IS GOOD. 2 AND I WOULD SUGGEST THAT THERE MAY BE MORE 3 THAN -- FOR EXAMPLE, MORE THAN TWENTY PERCENT OF 4 THE AREA DEVOTED TO OFFICE IS A REAL POSSIBILITY, 5 OR MORE OF THE AREA TO RESIDENTIAL THAN FIFTY 6 PERCENT. 7 I DIDN'T USE TO BELIEVE THAT, BUT WITH THE 8 ALLOWANCE OF HIGHER DENSITIES AND, YOU KNOW, WITH 9 WHAT I'VE SEEN IN THE MARKET, IT'S POSSIBLE THAT 10 THEY WOULD REACH THAT. IT'S AT LEAST POSSIBLE THAT 11 IT WOULD REACH THE FIFTY PERCENT LEVEL, AND EVEN 12 EXCEED THAT. 13 I DO THINK IT'S POSSIBLE ALSO THAT RETAIL 14 MIGHT NOT REACH FORTY PERCENT, SIMPLY BECAUSE 15 DURING THE INTERVENING TIME OF THIS DEVELOPMENT, 16 TOWN CENTER PLAN, WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN, FOR EXAMPLE, ONE SHOPPING CENTER BUILT EAST OF THE TOWN CENTER, THE KASH AND KARRY THERE, AND THERE ARE OTHERS BEING PROPOSED AND WORKED ON FOR WEST OF THE TOWN CENTER. IT'S POSSIBLE THAT ENOUGH RETAIL WILL BE BUILT OUTSIDE THE TOWN CENTER WHERE THESE REGULATIONS DON'T APPLY THAT THE DEMAND FOR RETAIL FOR SOME PERIOD OF TIME COULD BE ABSORBED AND DIMINISHED AND THAT THE GREATER DEMAND WOULD BE FOR OFFICE AND REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . . 8l ~ ia ~ ~ " z W 0.. . III ::f a: 12 ~ a: ~ . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25' 27 1 RESIDENTIAL, FOR EXAMPLE. 2 ALSO, THERE'S SOME CONCERN TO ME IN THAT 3 RETAIL, COMMERCIAL OFFICE AND RESIDENTIAL REALLY 4 DOESN'T SUM UP WHAT'S GOING TO BE IN THE TOWN 5 CENTER. 6 I DON'T KNOW WHERE SCHOOLS, CHURCHES, PARKS, 7 GOVERNMENT SERVICES, THINGS LIKE THAT, RESTAURANTS 8 PERHAPS EVEN, FIT INTO RETAIL, COMMERCIAL OFFICE, 9 RESIDENTIAL. 10 ONE OF THE OBJECTIVES OF THE TOWN CENTER IS TO 11 HAVE A REALLY DIVERSE SET OF USES, AND I'M JUST 12 AFRAID THIS -- WELL, I WOULD LIKE TO KEEP THINGS 13 SIMPLE. I'M AFRAID THIS SENTENCE MAY NOT BE CLEAR 14 AS TO THE OBJECTIVE. 15 WHEN I SAID EARLIER THERE WAS A CONCERN ABOUT 16 THE PERCENTAGES BEING APPLIED TO THE AREA AS A 17 WHOLE, I RECOGNIZE ON THE OTHER EXTREME, YOU 18 COULDN'T REALLY APPLY THOSE PERCENTAGES TO EACH INDIVIDUAL PROPERTY OR EACH INDIVIDUAL PARCEL EITHER BECAUSE THEN YOU WOULD BE PERHAPS REQUIRING EACH SITE TO HAVE A CERTAIN PERCENT OF OFFICES, A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE OF RESIDENTIAL, A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE OF RETAIL, AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE INTENT HERE EITHER AND THAT WOULD BECOME IMPOSSIBLE, ESPECIALLY ON SOME OF THESE SMALLER REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . . ~ 'I' ; ~ " z W 0.. . III ::f a: 12 ~ III ~ . 28 1 SITES. 2 SO I GUESS THE ANSWER LIES SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 3 THERE. AND THAT'S ANOTHER GOOD REASON TO KEEP THE 4 RANGE AS BROAD AS YOU CAN REASONABLY IMAGINE THAT 5 THE MINIMUM AND MAXIMUM AMOUNT OF LAND USE MIGHT 6 BE. 7 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE HAVEN'T HAD A CHANCE 8 EITHER, THE TWO OF US, SINCE WE GOT HERE -- WE WERE 9 HERE, BY THE WAY, UNTIL ABOUT THREE-THIRTY, A 10 QUARTER TO FOUR THIS MORNING. WE HAD OTHER THINGS 11 -- WE HAD TO GET SOME STUFF DONE TO GET BACK OUT 12 HERE. WE HADN'T HAD A CHANCE TO TALK ABOUT THIS 13 ORDINANCE. 14 I HAVE HAD DISCUSSION WITH ANTHONY GARGANESE, 15 CITY ATTORNEY, ABOUT THIS RANGE STUFF, AND WE ARE 16 GOING TO TRY TO LOOK AT IT. I THINK HIS INTENT WAS 17 GOOD AND THAT HE DIDN'T WANT TO -- COULD NOT HAVE 18 THE ORIGINAL MINIMUMS. HE WANTED TO HAVE SOME 19 RANGE AFTER TALKING TO DCA SO THERE COULD BE SOME 20 FLEXIBILITY IN THOSE CATEGORIES, WHICH IS GOOD. 21 BUT THEY INSISTED ON HAVING RANGES AS OPPOSED TO 22 FLAT, YOU KNOW, FIFTY/FORTY/TEN OR SOMETHING LIKE 23 THAT. 24 SO, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO TELL YOU 25 HERE TONIGHT. MAYBE YOU GUYS COULD HAVE SOME GOOD REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. .,1. ~ . ~ 'I' ~ ~ ~ ~ W 0.. . III ::f a: 12 o ~ a: ~ . 29 1 IDEAS AND COME UP WITH SOME SOLUTIONS. BUT I KNOW 2 WE WILL BE TRYING TO WORK WITH ANTHONY ON THAT 3 PRETTY MUCH BEFORE IT GETS TO THE CITY COUNCIL. 4 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I GUESS ONE OTHER THING. 5 I THINK IT WOULD PROBABLY BE ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE THAT 6 THERE WOULD BE ZERO PERCENT COMMERCIAL. 7 MR. GRINDSTAFF: BUT IT ALLOWS THAT TO 8 HAVE IT. 9 MR. SCHRIMSHER: RIGHT. WHICH I GUESS IS 10 FINE. YOU HAVE TO HAVE YOUR PERCENTAGES ADD UP TO 11 A NUMBER GREATER THAN A HUNDRED PERCENT, OTHERWISE 12 YOU HAVE TARGETED IT -- IF IT GETS TARGETED TOO 13 PRECISELY, IT WILL BE VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO HIT 14 THAT. 15 FOR INSTANCE, WHAT YOU WILL DO WITH THE FINAL 16 LAST FEW PROPERTIES THAT GET DEVELOPED IS IT 17 WILL BE SPECIFIED WHAT THEY MUST BE AND THAT MAY 18 NOT BE WHAT THEY REALLY NEED TO BE OR SHOULD BE. 19 SO I'M NOT SURE WHAT STAGE THIS IS, IF AFTER 20 TONIGHT THIS IS ALLOWED TO BE TWEAKED. IT SEEMED 21 LIKE FROM WHAT ANTHONY WAS SAYING THAT THEY WERE 22 RECEPTIVE TO INPUT ON THIS, THAT THEY WERE TRYING 23 TO REALLY HIT A REASONABLE RANGE THAT WOULD ALLOW 24 AS MUCH FLEXIBILITY AS WAS NEEDED, AND I JUST -- I 25 APPRECIATE THAT. REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. .,. .... . ~ 'I' ~ ~ ~ z w 0.. . III '::f a: 12 o ~ a: ~ . 20 21 22 23 24 25 30 1 I'M JUST NOT SURE THEY QUITE HAVE IT WITH THE 2 CURRENT NUMBERS. 3 MR. GRINDSTAFF: ANY QUESTIONS FOR EITHER 4 OF US? 5 MR. BROWN: YEAH, I HAVE A QUESTION. THE 6 LAND EAST OF TUSCAWILLA ROAD, NORTH OF 434, YOUR 7 LAND, HAS THAT BEEN ANNEXED INTO THE CITY YET? 8 MR. SCHRIMSHER: WE HAVE BEEN IN THE CITY 9 FOR YEARS REALLY, PROBABLY TEN YEARS OR MORE. 10 MR. BROWN: WELL, ALL THAT CORNER BEHIND 11 THE MCDONALD'S, ALL THAT SECTION IN THERE? 12 MR. SCHRIMSHER: RIGHT. THE PART THAT 13 WASN'T, THERE'S A -- IF YOU HAVE A COPY OF THE NEW 14 CODE, TOWN CENTER DISTRICT CODE, ON PAGE 2 IT SHOWS 15 THE PARCELS THAT ARE STILL OUT. 16 MR. BROWN: OKAY. 17 MR. SCHRIMSHER: MR. KINGSBURY'S PROPERTY 18 ACROSS THE STREET FROM THE MCDONALD'S WAS AN 19 ENCLAVE OF SEMINOLE COUNTY, BUT GOT ANNEXED INTO THE CITY SOMETIME LAST YEAR. MR. BROWN: THE REASON I BRING THAT UP, AND THIS BOARD IS WELL AWARE, BUT WE HAVE BEEN SHORTENED, THIS BOARD. WE'RE NOT WE'RE LIKE YOU. THE ONLY TIME WE KNOW THAT ANYTHING HAS BEEN ANNEXED ANYMORE IS WHEN WE READ IT IN THE PAPER. REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . . ~ 'I' i ~ ~ W 0.. . III ::f a: 12 ~ III ~ . 22 23 24 2S 31 1 WE ARE BYPASSED COMPLETELY, WHICH WE ARE IN 2 OBJECTION TO, THE CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS GOING PAST 3 THE PLANNING AND ZONING BOARD, AND WE DON'T 4 APPRECIATE THAT. BUT WE DON'T KNOW ANYMORE THAN 5 THAT. 6 ALSO, I'D LIKE TO COMMENT AT THIS TIME. 7 MR. GRIMMS NOTIFIED ME AS TO THIS MEETING, BUT LIKE 8 YOURSELF, I HAVE COMPLAINED BEFORE TO THE CITY 9 ABOUT READING ABOUT A MEETING I'M GOING TO IN THE 10 NEWSPAPER AND NOT KNOWING ANYTHING ABOUT IT. 11 I DON'T THINK THAT'S PROPER FOR THIS BOARD. 12 SO I WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT WE DIDN'T KNOW ANYMORE 13 ABOUT THIS MEETING THAN YOU DID. 14 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I BELIEVE THAT. 15 MR. BROWN: AND, WELL, IT'S GETTING VERY 16 ANNOYING. WE ARE VOLUNTEERS TO THE CITY OF WINTER 17 SPRINGS. AND WHETHER I LOSE FRIENDS OR PICK UP 18 FRIENDS FOR BEING HONEST, I DON'T THINK IT'S PROPER 19 FOR THIS TYPE OF PROCEDURE TO GO ON WITH THE 20 ANNEXATION AND WITH READING IN THE NEWSPAPER WHAT'S 21 GOING ON. AND THEN TO ENLIGHTEN YOU AS TO WHERE WE SIT THIS EVENING, WE ARE GOING TO DO THE BEST WE CAN TO WORK THIS OUT BECAUSE, LIKE YOU SAID, WE SPENT HOURS FOR YEARS ON THIS ISSUE, AND I THINK ALL OF REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . . ~ 'I' ~ ~ ~ ~ 0.. . III ~ 12 ~ ~ . 25 32 1 US HAVE THE SAME OBJECTIVE. 2 WE WANT A DOWNTOWN CENTER. WE WANT A CITY. WE 3 DON'T WANT ALL THESE THINGS THAT KEEP COMING UP, 4 KEEP CROPPING UP. WE WANT THESE ARRANGEMENTS MADE 5 TO DO THIS. 6 FROM OUR MOTIONS, YOU CAN SEE THAT, THAT WE 7 CERTAINLY WENT ALONG WITH YOU PEOPLE AND WITH THE 8 CITY, ISSUES WITH THE CITY. 9 I WAS GOING TO SAY SOMETHING ELSE RELATIVE TO 10 THAT, TOO, BUT RIGHT NOW MY BLOOD PRESSURE IS UP ON 11 SOME OF THESE ISSUES THIS EVENING IN THROUGH SOME 12 OF THIS. 13 OH, THE OTHER THING WAS, SO YOU ARE WELL 14 AWARE, THE PACKAGE, MR. GRIMMS HAS BROUGHT THE 15 PACKAGE TO US, AND WE'VE HAD IT ABOUT THREE DAYS TO 16 REVIEW. LUCKILY I AM RETIRED AND I HAVE SPENT 17 CLOSE TO THIRTY HOURS GOING THROUGH THIS PACKAGE. 18 I HAVE SPENT A LOT OF TIME ON IT AND I TALKED 19 TO MR. GRIMMS THIS EVENING TO MAKE SURE THAT WE 20 KNEW WHERE WE WERE COMING FROM. 21 AND THE MAIN ITEMS THAT WE SEE, THAT I SEE -- 22 I CAN'T SPEAK FOR THE REST OF THE BOARD. I DON'T 23 KNOW HOW MUCH TIME THEY HAVE SPENT ON THIS. BUT ~ 24 WHERE THE VISION, GOALS AND OBJECTIVES IN THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN -- AND I DIDN'T DIG OUT THE REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . . ~ 'I' ~ ~ ~ " z W 0.. . III ::f a: 12 o ~ a: w '" :s . 20 21 22 23 24 25 34 1 MR. FERNANDEZ: MR. SCHRIMSHER, YOU 2 INDICATED THAT YOU CHECKED ON THE DAIS OUT THERE 3 AND THAT THE ORDINANCE OUT THERE WAS A LITTLE BIT 4 DIFFERENT, THAT YOU HAD A DIFFERENT ORDINANCE. 5 YOU REFERENCED PAGE 6 OF 8, I BELIEVE YOU 6 SAID, 6 OF 8, AND PROBABLY I CAN'T SEE IT, BUT 7 B8 ON 6 OF 8. AND YOU MENTIONED IT HAD CERTAIN 8 RANGES IN IT? 9 MR. SCHRIMSHER: RIGHT. PAGE 6 OF 8 OF 10 THE -- 11 MR. FERNANDEZ: ORDINANCE 2000 HYPHEN 10. 12 MR. SCHRIMSHER: CORRECT. 13 MR. FERNANDEZ: AND-- 14 MR. SCHRIMSHER: OUT THERE, IT SAYS IT 15 WILL CREATE A MINIMUM MIX OF LAND USES, AND IT HAS 16 -- WELL, LAST NIGHT IT SAID FIFTEEN PERCENT, I 17 BELIEVE, FOR OFFICE AND RESIDENTIAL, AND A SINGLE 18 NUMBER LIKE -- 19 MR. FERNANDEZ: WELL, WHAT I'M LOOKING AT IS RETAIL, FIFTY PERCENT, COMMERCIAL OFFICE, FIFTEEN PERCENT, AND RESIDENTIAL, FIFTEEN PERCENT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: YOU'VE GOT WHAT'S OUT ON THE DAIS. YOU'VE GOT THE OLD ONE. MR. FERNANDEZ: THAT'S WHAT I PICKED UP ON. OKAY. REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . . ~ 'I' ~ ~ ~ " z W 0.. . III ::f a: 12 o ~ III a: ~ . 23 24 25 35 1 MR. GRINDSTAFF: YOU'VE GOT THE OLD ONE. 2 I THINK I CAN SHARE A LITTLE BIT ON THAT. I SPOKE 3 TO ANTHONY ABOUT THAT TODAY. 4 MR. FERNANDEZ: WHAT'S THIS? 5 MR. BROWN: THIS IS WHAT WAS GIVEN TO ME 6 IN MY PACKAGE. 7 MR. FERNANDEZ: WHEN? THIS IS WHAT I'M 8 LOOKING AT RIGHT HERE. 9 MR. GRIMMS: I HAVE A HANDOUT TO YOU 10 TONIGHT. 11 MR. FERNANDEZ: I DON'T HAVE ONE. 12 MR. BROWN: YEAH, YOU DID. IT'S 13 UNDERNEATH. 14 MR. FERNANDEZ: AH, IT'S UNDERNEATH. 15 OKAY. 16 MR. BROWN: THINGS MOVE RAPIDLY AROUND 17 HERE. 18 MR. SCHRIMSHER: THIS IS A GOOD 19 ILLUSTRATION. I DON'T HAVE TO SAY ANYTHING. 20 MR. FERNANDEZ: IT'S NOT HERE. DID YOU 21 STEAL MINE? HAVE YOU GOT TWO OF THEM? YOU STOLE 22 MINE. THAT'S WHY I DON'T HAVE ONE. MR. BROWN: NO, THAT'S ANOTHER ONE. THAT'S 707. MR. FERNANDEZ: NO, IT SAYS 2000-10. IT REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . . 8l '" I o < " z W 0.. . III ::f a: o ~ ~ III a: ~ . 20 21 22 23 24 25 36 1 ISN'T HERE. HAVE YOU GOT ONE? 2 MR. STEPHENS: MR. GRIMMS GAVE YOU ONE. 3 MR. FERNANDEZ: THAT'S THE ONE I'M 4 LOOKING FOR. WELL, THE CITY'DOESN'T HAVE ENOUGH 5 MONEY. 6 MR. STEPHENS: I KNOW YOU GAVE IT. 7 MR. GRIMMS: I DID. 8 MR. BROWN: MAYBE I THREW IT OUT. I 9 DIDN'T WANT YOU TO KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON. 10 MR. STEPHENS: IS THERE ONE RIGHT OVER 11 THERE? HERE YOU GO. 12 MR. FERNANDEZ: THANK YOU. 13 MR. BROWN: COULD WE GIVE BILL A MOMENT 14 TO 15 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I DIDN'T REALLY GET AN 16 EXPLANATION. WE ASKED THE SAME QUESTION. IN 17 ADDITION TO NOT ONLY DID WE NOT HEAR ABOUT IT, BUT 18 WHY WAS WHAT WAS GIVEN TO THE PUBLIC DIFFERENT FROM 19 WHAT WAS PRODUCED LAST NIGHT. AND THE ANSWER WAS THIS -- AND I BELIEVE ANTHONY ON THIS. THAT HE PREPARED THE DRAFT THAT COMMISSIONER FERNANDEZ JUST MENTIONED IN AN EFFORT TO MEET THESE ORC COMMENTS. HE SENT IT UP TO DCA YESTERDAY MORNING AND YESTERDAY HE HAD AN INFORMAL CONVERSATION WITH THEM REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. \c. . ~ 'I' ~ ~ ~ " z W 0.. . III ::f a: 12 o ~ III a: ~ . 37 1 ABOUT WHAT HE HAD SENT TO THEM AND THEY STRONGLY 2 ENCOl~GED HIM TO MAKE THE REVISIONS THAT YOU NOW 3 SEE. 4 FOR EXAMPLE, COMMISSIONER FERNANDEZ, WHAT YOU 5 SAW AT THE FIFTY/FIFTEEN/FORTY STUFF, IT SAID THE 6 CITY SHALL ENDEAVOR TO MEET THESE THRESHOLDS OR 7 THESE PERCENTAGES. 8 ANTHONY USED THE WORD ENDEAVOR. DCA DIDN'T 9 LIKE THAT. THEY SAID, YOU USE -- YOU NEED TO USE 10 THE WORD SHALL, YOU SHALL DO SUCH AND SUCH. 11 HE THEN SAID, WELL, IF IT'S A SHALL, I HAVE 12 GOT TO HAVE A RANGE IN THESE THINGS BECAUSE 13 ENDEAVOR LEFT ME SOME FLEXIBILITY. SHALL LEAVES ME 14 NO FLEXIBILITY. AND THAT'S HOW HE CAME UP WITH 15 THAT. AND I HAVEN'T EVEN HAD A CHANCE TO TALK TO 16 MICHAEL SCHRIMSHER ABOUT THAT. 17 ANTHONY AND I AGREED THAT WE ARE GOING TO TRY 18 TO MEET TOGETHER BEFORE THE 24TH. WE ARE GOING TO 19 TRY TO WORK ON THIS LANGUAGE IN A WAY THAT MAKES 20 EVERYBODY COMFORTABLE, INCLUDING THE DCA. 21 MR. GRIMMS: I TALKED TO BRENDA 22 WINNINGHAM, OUR REVIEW TEAM LEADER FOR THIS AREA 23 FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMUNITY AFFAIRS, AND SHE 24 DID FLAG THAT. AND SHE SAID, IN TALKING WITH HER 25 SUPERIORS, THAT THEY WANT IT MUCH MORE DECLARATIVE REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. ~. . '" III 'I' i ~ " z W 0.. . III ::f a: 12 o ~ III a: W S . 38 1 THAN SUGGESTIVE. 2 SO THAT'S WHY THE LANGUAGE CHANGE CAME ABOUT. 3 MR. FERNANDEZ: THANK YOU. THAT ANSWERED 4 MY QUESTION. 5 MR. STEPHENS: ANY MORE COMMENTS FROM THE 6 BOARD? 7 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I THINK IT MIGHT BE 8 HELPFUL, BECAUSE I KNOW yOU GUYS GET -- YOU HAVE 9 GOT A LOT OF INFORMATION. WE WON'T TALK ABOUT ALL 10 THAT ANYMORE. I MEAN, NONE OF US ARE PLEASED WITH 11 THE PROCEDURE. I DON'T THINK THE COMMUNITY IS 12 PLEASED AT ALL WITH THE PROCEDURE, WHAT HAPPENS 13 HERE. 14 BUT WE ARE WHERE WE ARE. WE WOULD JUST LIKE 15 TO REQUEST THAT THIS BOARD TAKE WHATEVER ACTION YOU 16 WANT TO TAKE, BUT WE WOULD BE HAPPY WITH THE SAME 17 ACTION YOU TOOK IN DECEMBER OF 1998. 18 THAT IS TO MOVE IT ON TO THE COMMISSION, 19 BECAUSE I KNOW IT NEEDS TO GET OUT OF THE LPA AND 20 GE;T MOVING, BUT MAKE IT SUBJECT TO THE SAME 21 CONDITIONS YOU MADE IN DECEMBER OF 1998. 22 AND WE WOULD RESPECTFULLY REQUEST, WITHOUT 23 REHASHING WHy WE'VE ASKED THAT BECAUSE THAT STARTED 24 BACK IN 1997, TOOK HOURS TO GET INTO, BUT WE WOULD 25 RESPECTFULLY REQUEST THAT YOU LITERALLY READ THE REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . . ~ 'I' ~ ~ ~ " z W 0.. . III ::f a: 12 o ~ III a: ~ . 39 1 SAME MOTION AND WE WOULD BE HAPPY WITH THAT. 2 IF WE MOVE IT ON, THEN WE WILL DEAL WITH THESE 3 ISSUES AS THEY GET TO THE CITY COMMISSION. 4 MR. GRIMMS: MR. CHAIRMAN, I JUST I 5 WAS NOT INVOLVED WITH THE COMPANION AGREEMENT 6 NEGOTIATIONS. I WOULD JUST LIKE TO MAKE A GLOBAL 7 OBSERVATION HERE THAT SUFFICE IT THERE'S GOING TO 8 BE A, HOPEFULLY, SOME SORT OF COMPANION AGREEMENT. 9 THE SCHRIMSHER PROPERTIES ARE AN INTEGRAL PART 10 OF THE WHOLE TOWN CENTER CONCEPT. AND I REMEMBER, 11 BECAUSE I HAD JUST STARTED, BUT I REMEMBER THE 12 MOTION MADE ABOUT TWO YEARS AGO BY BOARD MEMBER 13 FERNANDEZ. 14 I GENERALLY WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE BOARD HERE 15 RECOMMEND POSITIVELY THE COMP PLAN AMENDMENT 16 ADOPTION TO INCLUDE THE SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY. AND 17 IF YOU WISH TO MAKE SOME SORT OF PREDICATION TO 18 THAT, THAT'S FINE, IN TERMS OF SOME AGREEMENTS AND 19 SO ON AND SO FORTH, BUT TO BE MORE DECLARATIVE 20 TO INCLUDE THE SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY IN THE TOWN 21 CENTER COMP PLAN AMENDMENT ADOPTION. 22 MR. CHAIRMAN. 23 MR. STEPHENS: DO I HAVE ANY RESPONSE 24 FROM THE BOARD? OKAY. 25 THANK YOU, GENTLEMEN. APPRECIATE IT. WE HAVE REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . . 8l '" 'I' ~ ~ o < " z W 0.. . III ::f a: 12 o ~ III a: w '" :s . 40 1 ANOTHER PUBLIC -- PERSON WITH PUBLIC INPUT, MARK 2 LEVIN. 3 MR. LEVIN: MARK LEVIN. IT'S 160 SEVILLE 4 CHASE DRIVE, WINTER SPRINGS. I JUST LEARNED OF THE 5 MEETING YESTERDAY WHEN IT WAS POSTED IN THE PAPER. 6 I'M A NEW RESIDENT OF WINTER SPRINGS AND I'M A 7 STRONG SUPPORTER OF THE TOWN CENTER BECAUSE I LIKE 8 TO SEE A TOWN CENTER. 9 UNFORTUNATELY, MY BLOOD PRESSURE WAS GOING UP 10 DURING THE MEETING ALSO. AND I GUESS WHAT I REALLY 11 WANT TO TALK ABOUT WITH YOU WAS THE PERCENTAGES 12 THAT ARE IN THIS THAT APPARENTLY WERE JUST CHANGED 13 TODAY. 14 THIRTY-NINE UNITS PER ACRE FOR RESIDENTIAL 15 HOUSING IS NOT A TOWN CENTER. THAT'S ANOTHER 16 APARTMENT COMPLEX, JUST LIKE ON THE SOUTH SIDE OF 17 434 OR OVER ON THE NORTH SIDE OF RED BUG LAKE. 18 NOW, THE PERCENTAGES MENTIONED JUST A FEW 19 MINUTES AGO WHERE YOU TALK ABOUT FIFTY PERCENT 20 RETAIL MINIMUM, FIFTEEN PERCENT MINIMUM COMMERCIAL 21 AND FIFTEEN RESIDENTIAL IS MORE OF A TOWN CENTER. 22 EIGHTY PERCENT RETAIL AND TWENTY PERCENT 23 OFFICE IS A TOWN CENTER. 24 FORTY PERCENT RETAIL AND FIFTY PERCENT 25 RESIDENTIAL AND TEN PERCENT COMMERCIAL IS NOT A REALTIME REPORTERS. INC. . . m ~ ~ ~ ~ " z w 0.. . III ::f a: 12 o ~ III a: W '" :s . 41 1 TOWN CENTER. THAT'S ANOTHER APARTMENT COMPLEX. 2 THAT'S THE ONLY POINT I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE. 3 OTHERWISE I'M A REALLY STRONG SUPPORTER OF THE TOWN 4 CENTER AND THAT'S WHY I CAME HERE TONIGHT. 5 MR. STEPHENS: MR. GRINDSTAFF. 6 MR. GRINDSTAFF: THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN. 7 JUST A BRIEF COMMENT ON THAT IN RESPONSE, AND WE 8 APPRECIATE MR. LEVIN'S COMMENTS. 9 THIS RETAIL STUFF DEPENDS ON DENSITIES. I 10 MEAN, IT DEPENDS ON PEOPLE, DEPENDS ON ROOFTOPS. 11 THE PART OF THIS WHOLE TOWN CENTER CONCEPT, IF YOU 12 GUYS CAN FLASH BACK TO FOUR OR FIVE YEARS AGO, WE 13 WERE TALKING ABOUT CONCENTRATION OF INTENSITIES AND 14 DENSITIES IN ORDER TO SUPPORT RETAIL. 15 OTHERWISE YOU END UP WITH SUBSIDIZED RETAIL, 16 FAILED RETAIL AND EMPTY BOXES. AND THERE'S BEEN 17 UNTOLD HOURS OF DISCUSSIONS ON THIS TOPIC, DATING 18 BACK TO MR. VICTOR DOVER'S ORIGINAL PARTICIPATION 19 SUPPORTING HIGH DENSITIES OF RESIDENTIAL. 20 I THINK THAT'S ONE REASON YOU SAW, YOU KNOW, 21 PERCENTAGES OF, I THINK, IN THE CAP. I'M NOT 22 LOOKING AT IT NOW, BUT EVEN IN RESIDENTIAL, IT'S 23 LIKE TWENTY TO FIFTY OR SOMETHING AND IT WASN'T 24 EIGHTY PERCENT. I MEAN, THIS WILL NOT BE AN EIGHTY 25 PERCENT RESIDENTIAL DEAL. REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. '. . ~ 'I' ~ ~ ~ " z W 0.. . '" ::f a: f2 o ~ III ~ . 42 1 SO ANYWAY, THE TOWN CENTER DEPENDS ON 2 INTENSITY. 3 MR. GRIMMS: I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO MAKE A 4 COMMENT THERE. THAT ALL ALONG FROM THE BEGINNING, 5 IT'S BEEN RECOGNIZED BY VICTOR DOVER, AND CERTAINLY 6 UNDERSTOOD AND ACCEPTED BY STAFF AND BOARD MEMBERS 7 HERE, AND COMMISSION BOARD MEMBERS, THAT YOU NEED A 8 SIGNIFICANT RESIDENTIAL COMPONENT FOR THE 9 VIABILITY, EFFECTIVENESS OF THIS TOWN CENTER. 10 THIS IS WELL-KNOWN IN THE PLANNING FIELD, THAT 11 YOU NEED A SIGNIFICANT RESIDENTIAL COMPONENT IN 12 THESE TOWN CENTERS TO BRING IT TO LIFE, TO MAKE IT 13 CONTINUE TO BE A VIABLE CENTER. 14 WHAT EXACTLY THE PERCENTAGES ARE, SO FORTH, 15 YOU KNOW, THAT'S CONTINUING TO BE ARGUED ABOUT, YOU 16 KNOW, IN THE PLANNING FIELD, SO FORTH, LIKE THAT. 17 I DO WANT TO SAY THAT I SUPPORT A VERY 18 SIGNIFICANT RESIDENTIAL COMPONENT IN THE TOWN 19 CENTER. I'M NOT GOING TO SAY WHAT THE PERCENTAGES 20 ARE, WHATEVER, BUT IT IS IMPORTANT TO HAVE A 21 SIGNIFICANT RESIDENTIAL COMPONENT TO THE TOWN 22 CENTER. 23 MR. CHAI RMAN . 24 MR. STEPHENS: OKAY. ANY COMMENTS FROM 25 THE BOARD? MR. CLINCH. REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . . ~ 'I' ~ ~ ~ " z W 0.. . III ::f a: o ~ o ~ III ~ . 43 1 MR. CLINCH: I WOULD JUST MAKE A BRIEF 2 COMMENT. I THINK ALL THE FACTS THAT WERE PRESENTED 3 TO US TONIGHT ARE ALL VERY COMPELLING, MISS 4 SCARLOTTA'S CONCERN WITH THE MIXED USE DESIGNATION, 5 ATTORNEY GRINDSTAFF'S COMMENTS REGARDING THE ORC 6 RESPONSES, MR. SCHRIMSHER'S CONCERN FOR THE 7 CREATION OF MITIGATION AREAS TO TAKE WETLANDS, AND 8 MR. LEVIN'S CONCERNS AS WELL. 9 I THINK WHAT WE NEED TO KEEP IN MIND IS IN THE 10 EARLY DAYS OF THE PLANNING OF THIS TOWN CENTER IS 11 WE WERE TRYING TO CREATE SOMETHING SUSTAINABLE, 12 SOMETHING THAT WOULD OFFER FLEXIBILITY. 13 AND I THINK, IN KEEPING WITH ALL THE COMMENTS 14 THAT WERE PRESENTED TONIGHT, WE NEED TO INCORPORATE 15 . THAT INTO OUR MOTION. 16 MR. GRIMMS: IF I COULD COMMENT ON BOARD 17 MEMBER CLINCH'S POINT, FLEXIBILITY HAS ALWAYS BEEN 18 THE HALLMARK IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF THIS PROPOSED 19 TOWN CENTER CONCEPT. 20 I CERTAINLY AGREE. I WAS A LITTLE BIT 21 DISMAYED MYSELF TO SEE THE REQUIREMENT IN THE ORC 22 REPORT FROM DCA THAT YOU HAVE TO ESTABLISH 23 PERCENTAGES, YOU HAVE TO ESTABLISH MAXES. THAT 24 GOES AGAINST, YOU KNOW, OUR CONCEPT, OUR SENSE OF 25 FLEXIBILITY WE WANTED. REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . . 8l '" 'I' ~ ~ ~ ~ W 0.. . III ::f ~ o ~ a: ~ . 44 1 BUT WE ALSO REALIZE THAT THIS ISN'T GOING TO 2 GO AND FLY WITH DCA IN THEIR FINAL REVIEW AND 3 APPROVAL OR NOT IF WE DON'T ADHERE TO -- YOU KNOW, 4 IF WE DON'T SUBSCRIBE TO THAT. 5 SO THIS HAS BEEN OUR ATTEMPT -- THIS IS OUR 6 ATTEMPT TO MEET THEIR OBJECTIONS OR CONCERNS OR 7 WHATEVER. 8 SO IDEALLY FOR ME, I WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE 9 SEEN A LOT OF FLEXIBILITY WITHOUT THE PERCENTAGES 10 AND SO FORTH, BUT BE THAT AS IT MAY, WE ARE GOING 11 TO HAVE TO NAIL IT DOWN WITH SOME NUMBERS 12 APPARENTLY FOR DCA'S SATISFACTION. SO THAT'S JUST 13 THE WAY WE ARE GOING. 14 MR. CHAIRMAN. 15 MR. STEPHENS: OKAY. COMMENTS FROM THE 16 BOARD? DO I HEAR A MOTION? WOULD ANYBODY LIKE TO 17 MAKE A MOTION? IS MR. BROWN: YOU WANT TO MAKE IT AGAIN? 19 MR. FERNANDEZ: YOU WANT ME TO? 20 MR. BROWN: YEAH. OR I CAN READ YOUR 21 MOTION. 22 MR. FERNANDEZ: ARE YOU SURE NOW? 23 MR. BROWN: YEAH. 24 MR. FERNANDEZ: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. 25 MR. CHAIR, I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE A MOTION AND REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . . ~ 'I' ~ ~ o < " z W 0.. . III ::f a: 12 o ~ a: ~ . 23 24 25 45 1 RECOMMEND APPROVAL. WHAT ARE WE ON THIS TIME, 707 2 OR 2 -- THE LARGE SCALE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN 3 AMENDMENT THEN? 4 MR. STEPHENS: RIGHT. 5 MR. FERNANDEZ: OKAY. ONE-- 6 MR. STEPHENS: ORDINANCE 2000-10. 7 MR. FERNANDEZ: 2000 HYPHEN 10, 8 ESTABLISHING THE TOWN CENTER. THAT WE RECOMMEND 9 APPROVAL TO THE CITY COMMISSION BASED ON THE 10 FINDINGS THAT HAVE PREVIOUSLY BEEN ANNOUNCED AND 11 RECORDED IN MY DECEMBER THE 2ND, 1998 MEETING. 12 AND FURTHER, ON THE ADDITIONAL INPUT THAT IT 13 IS OUR UNDERSTANDING WE ARE TRYING TO CREATE 14 SOMETHING WITH MAXIMUM FLEXIBILITY, PRESERVING AS 15 MUCH GREEN SPACE AND OPEN AREAS AS FEASIBLY 16 POSSIBLE, MAINTAINING THE VIABILITY AND INTEGRITY 17 OF A TOWN CENTER WITH HIGH INTENSITY DEVELOPMENT, 18 YET ALLOWING FLEXIBILITY IN USE AND MODALITY OF 19 THESE VARIOUS PROPERTIES. 20 AND ACCORDINGLY, WITH THAT UNDERSTANDING OF 21 OUR FINDINGS, I WOULD RECOMMEND APPROVAL OF THE 22 TOWN CENTER, MADE APPLICABLE ALSO TO THE SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY, BUT CONDITIONED ON OR DEPENDENT UPON NEGOTIATION OF A SUCCESSFUL -- A SUCCESSFUL NEGOTIATION OF A DEVELOPER'S AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. .,. . 8l ~ i o < ~ W 0.. . III ::f a: 12 o ~ ~ . 46 1 PARTIES, OR ALTERNATIVELY IN THE EVENT THE 2 PROPERTIES ARE SOLD TO SOME OTHER OWNER OR 3 PURCHASER OF THE PROPERTY. 4 AND VERY CLEARLY AS LONG AS THE SCHRIMSHERS 5 OWN IT, IT CAN BE CONDITIONED ON NEGOTIATION OF A 6 DEVELOPER'S AGREEMENT WITH THOSE OWNERS. 7 I WILL SKIP THE REST OF THEM. THEY ARE NOT 8 HERE. 9 ,MR. BROWN: WELL, WHY DON'T YOU KEEP IT 10 IN THERE. IT WILL BE EASIER. 11 MR. FERNANDEZ: ALL RIGHT. AND THAT ALSO 12 IT BE CONTINGENT ON DEVELOPING AN AGREEMENT, A 13 DEVELOPER'S AGREEMENT WITH THE SPRINGLAND 14 INVESTMENT, LIMITED, JESSUP SHORES, LIMITED, EURO 15 AMERICAN INVESTORS GROUP, REPRESENTED BY SUNBELT 16 INVESTORS GROUP, MR. A. C. LEERDAM, AND/OR UNTIL 17 ANY OF THOSE PROPERTIES ARE SOLD TO A NEW OWNER. 18 WE ARE ACTING IN OUR CAPACITY AS LOCAL 19 PLANNING AGENCY, MAKING BROAD-BASED DECISIONS, AND 20 DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE SPECIFIC FINDINGS OF FACT. 21 BUT FOR THE RECORD, I REITERATE THAT IT IS OUR 22 UNDERSTANDING THAT WE ARE TRYING TO CREATE THIS 23 FLEXIBILITY, YET MAINTAIN THE HIGHEST CHARACTER OF 24 DEVELOPMENT THAT IS AVAILABLE AT THE CURRENT STATE 2S OF THE KNOWLEDGE IN THE INDUSTRY. REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . '<. . 8l ~ ~ ~ o < " z w 0.. . III ::f a: f2 ~ III ~ . 25 47 1 WITH THAT, THAT WILL BE MY MOTION. 2 MR. BROWN: I WILL SECOND THAT, 3 MR. CHAIRMAN. 4 MR. STEPHENS: OKAY. ANY MORE DISCUSSION 5 BEFORE WE CALL THE QUESTION? 6 OKAY. CALL THE QUESTION. 7 THE CLERK: MARK CLINCH. 8 MR. CLINCH: AYE. 9 THE CLERK: TOM BROWN. 10 MR. BROWN: AYE. 11 THE CLERK: BILL FERNANDEZ. 12 MR. FERNANDEZ: AYE. 13 THE CLERK: CARL STEPHENS. 14 MR. STEPHENS: AYE. 15 ALL RIGHT, THE SECOND AGENDA ITEM. THE SECOND 16 AGENDA ITEM IS THE TOWN CENTER DISTRICT CODE, 17 ORDINANCE 707 ESTABLISHING THE CODE. 18 MR. GRIMMS: MR. CHAIRMAN AND MEMBERS OF 19 THE BOARD, YOU HAVE SEEN MY MAIL-OUT TO YOU. YOU 20 HAVE SEEN THE CHANGES. I HAVE READ THE LETTER FROM 21 THE CITY ATTORNEY, ANTHONY GARGANESE, ORDINANCE 22 707. 23 I'M ASKING FROM CITY STAFF THAT YOU SUPPORT 24 THIS ORDINANCE AND THE ADOPTION OF THE TOWN CENTER DISTRICT CODE. REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. ~. . 8l '" 'I' ; ~ " z W 0.. . III ::f a: 12 o ~ III a: ~ . 48 1 MR. FERNANDEZ: I WANT IT NOTED FOR THE 2 RECORD HE DID STEAL MY COPY. 3 MR. GRIMMS: MR. CHAIRMAN. 4 MR. STEPHENS: ANY COMMENTS FROM THE 5 BOARD? 6 MR. FERNANDEZ: NO. NO COMMENTS. 7 MR. GRINDSTAFF: CAN WE COMMENT ON THIS 8 AS WELL, MR. STEPHENS? 9 MR. STEPHENS: YES. 10 MR. GRINDSTAFF: THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN. 11 MICHAEL GRINDSTAFF, THE SAME PERSON THAT APPEARED 12 ON BEHALF OF THE SCHRIMSHER GROUP ON THE TOWN 13 CENTER COMP PLAN AMENDMENT. 14 ALL OF OUR COMMENTS WILL BE REPEATED, IF 15 THAT'S ACCEPTABLE TO Y'ALL, AND WE WOULD JUST LIKE 16 TO HAVE THEM JUST INCORPORATED INTO THE SAME 17 HEARING ON THIS ORDINANCE AS WELL, WITH THE 18 UNDERSTANDING THAT WE ARE THAT WE OBJECT TO THE 19 PASSAGE OF THIS ORDINANCE UNLESS THE COMPANION 20 AGREEMENT REFERRED TO OFTENTIMES BY MR. FERNANDEZ 21 IS ALSO ADOPTED CONCURRENTLY WITH THE ORDINANCE. 22 IF YOU WOULD LIKE FOR ME TO ELABORATE OR GO 23 THROUGH ANY OF THOSE AGAIN, I WILL BE HAPPY TO DO 24 SO. 25 IT WOULD BE GREAT IF WE COULD HAVE HEARD BOTH REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. (. . 8l '" I ~ " z W 0.. . III ::f a: f2 o ~ a: w '" :s . 20 21 22 23 24 25 49 1 OF THEM AT THE SAME TIME, BUT I DON'T KNOW IF YOU 2 CAN DO THAT, CAN YOU, TOM? 3 MR. GRIMMS: NO. YOU HAVE TO HAVE A 4 SEPARATE - - SEPARATE AGENDA ITEMS. THE COMMENTS, 5 THOUGH, OF BOTH OF YOU ARE, YOU KNOW, IN THE RECORD 6 AND I THINK FRESH IN THE MINDS OF THE BOARD MEMBER. 7 MR. GRINDSTAFF: AND IF YOU WILL JUST 8 INCORPORATE THOSE INTO THIS HEARING, WE CAN MOVE 9 RIGHT ALONG. 10 MR. STEPHENS: MR. BROWN. 11 MR. BROWN: AS I SAID BEFORE, I WENT 12 THROUGH BOTH OF THESE PRETTY EXTENSIVELY, I THINK 13 MORE THAN YOU HAVE HAD A CHANCE TO DO. 14 ON THE DISTRICT CODE, I DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING IN 15 THERE THAT WOULD, YOU KNOW -- OF COURSE, YOU 16 HAVEN'T COMMENTED ON ANY ISSUES LIKE BEFORE WE 17 TALKED ABOUT SOME FINE DETAILS. 18 BUT I HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING IN THE TOWN CENTER 19 DISTRICT CODE EXCEPT A COUPLE ITEMS THAT I PICKED UP THAT WERE NOT LIKE MAJOR TYPE THINGS. THEY ADDED DRIVE-THRUS, WHICH WAS ONE THING WE HAD DISCUSSED. I KNOW THAT MR. SCHRIMSHER AND I HAD TALKED ABOUT THAT. AT ONE OF THE MEETINGS, THAT CAME UP ABOUT DRIVE-THRUS, THAT HE FELT THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO HAVE IT. REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. ~. ~ . ~ 'I' i ~ ~ W 0.. . III ::f a: o ~ o ~ III a: W '" :s . 50 1 AND THEY HAD IT IN THERE NOW AND I SEE THAT. 2 AND I KIND OF, WHEN I READ THAT, I WAS KIND OF 3 HOPING A LOT OF THAT CAME OUT OF NEGOTIATIONS THAT 4 YOU HAD WITH THE CITY. 5 BUT I DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING IN HERE THAT WOULD 6 BE LIKE IT WAS BEFORE. IT SEEMS TO BE PRETTY 7 EXTENSIVE AND THERE'S BEEN A LOT ADDED TO IT. 8 THERE'S PROBABLY A LOT OF OTHER SMALL ITEMS 9 THAT HAVE TO GO IN THERE, WHICH WHEN MR. GRIMMS 10 GOES TO IT, I THINK THERE'S A COUPLE OF THINGS 11 I WANT TO COVER, BUT DO YOU KNOW OF ANYTHING 12 REALLY 13 MR. GRINDSTAFF: SOME OF THE MOST 14 SIGNIFICANT POINTS JUST OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD WAS 15 THE AMENDMENT TO PAGE 11. IF YOU LOOK AT PAGE 11, 16 YOU WILL -- THAT'S A MAP. 17 THAT'S NOT TO SAY IT'S THE ONLY REVISION. 18 THERE'S BEEN -- THERE AGAIN, WE HAVE PROBABLY HAD 19 OVER A HUNDRED HOURS OF MEETINGS ON THIS THING. 20 MR. BROWN: YEAH. 21 MR. GRINDSTAFF: BUT THE MAP ON PAGE 11 22 WAS REVISED FOR THE -- THE MOST COMPELLING REASON 23 WAS THE JURISDICTIONAL LINE. 24 AS YOU WILL RECALL, WE WERE SCREAMING THAT THE 25 ORIGINAL MAP DIDN'T TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION THE REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. :. . ~ 'I' ~ ~ ~ ~ W 0.. . III ::f a: o ~ o ~ III a: ~ 21 22 23 . 24 25 51 1 JURISDICTIONAL WETLAND LINE. 2 AND WHEN WE FINALLY GOT DONE, SOMEBODY 3 PAID ATTENTION AND SAID, WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY 4 THAT, AND WE SAID, WELL, YOU GOT THE WRONG LINE 5 OUT THERE. 6 AND SO BACK IN NOVEMBER, AROUND NOVEMBER RIGHT 7 AFTER MR. JOSE SORT OF, YOU KNOW, EXITED THE SCENE 8 AROUND HERE, WE WERE ABLE TO GET BACK INTO IT AND 9 FOCUS ON THE WETLAND LINE, AND THE WETLAND LINE 10 CHANGED, AND SO THE LOCATION OF THE ROADS. 11 MR. BROWN: OH, I SEE WHAT YOU'RE 12 MR. GRINDSTAFF: AND SOME OF THE USAGE 13 CHANGED. SOME OF THE PARKS CHANGES, THE TRAIL 14 WILL BE REALIGNED. WE HAVE HAD MANY HOURS ON THE 15 TRAIL REALIGNMENT. 16 COMMISSIONER FERNANDEZ HAS PARTICIPATED IN 17 THAT AT LENGTH ON BEHALF OF THE EQUESTRIAN PEOPLE. 18 WE APPRECIATE HIS INPUT. 19 AND, MIKE, CAN YOU THINK OF ANYTHING ELSE? 20 I DON'T MEAN TO SAY THE LITTLE ONES WE HAVEN'T MENTIONED AREN'T SIGNIFICANT. THEY JUST DON'T COME TO MIND RIGHT NOW. MR. SCHRIMSHER: IT'S BEEN SIGNIFICANTLY AMENDED IN PART DUE TO OUR PARTICIPATION, ALONG WITH VICTOR DOVER, THE CONSULTANT, AND THE CITY REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . . I i ~ W 0.. 18 . 19 III ~ 12 ~ III a: w ~ 20 21 22 23 . 24 25 52 1 STAFF. AND PROVIDED WE CAN REACH THE AGREEMENT ON 2 THE COMPANION AGREEMENT, WE ARE SATISFIED. 3 I THINK WE WOULD BE SATISFIED WITH THIS CODE. 4 WE AMENDED THIS CODE AS MUCH AS WE COULD 5 TO ADDRESS, SAY, THE BIG PICTURE. 6 AND THE COMPANION AGREEMENT IS MEANT TO 7 ADDRESS SOME THINGS THAT PARTICULARLY APPLY TO US 8 THAT WEREN'T APPROPRIATE TO ADDRESS IN THE BIG 9 PICTURE OF THE CODE ITSELF. 10 BUT THE TWO IN CONCERT ACCOMPLISH WHAT WE'VE 11 BEEN ATTEMPTING TO ACCOMPLISH. SO I WOULD JUST 12 AGREE WITH MICKY THAT PROVIDED WE GET TO THE FINISH 13 LINE ON THE COMPANION AGREEMENT, THEN WE WILL BE IN 14 SUPPORT OF THIS CODE AND THE COMP PLAN AMENDMENT. 15 AND WE ARE OPTIMISTIC JUST BECAUSE OF HOW MUCH 16 PROGRESS WE'VE MADE. 17 MR. GRINDSTAFF: DID Y'ALL GET A BLACK LINE COPY OF THE ORDINANCE, THE ACTUAL ORDINANCE, 707? MR. FERNANDEZ: YEAH . MR. GRINDSTAFF: BLACK LINE SHOWING THE REVISIONS FROM WHAT YOU LOOKED AT THE FIRST TIME? MR. BROWN: I BELIEVE IT'S THERE ON THE BACK. I SAW THAT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I'M TALKING ABOUT REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. ;:. '. ...:L . 8l ~ i ~ ~ 0.. . III ::f a: 12 ~ ~ . 53 1 ORDINANCE 707, WHICH IS ONLY ABOUT THREE PAGES, 2 FOUR PAGES. I'M TALKING ABOUT THIS CREATURE RIGHT 3 HERE. 4 MR. BROWN: THIS ONE HERE? 5 MR. GRINDSTAFF: YES, SIR. IS THAT -- IS 6 YOUR DRAFT BLACK-LINED? 7 MR. BROWN: YEAH. YOU MEAN THE HEAVY 8 BLACK, YEAH. YEAH, I BELIEVE IT IS. MUST BE. 9 THAT'S THE SAME ONE, RIGHT? 10 MR. GRINDSTAFF: SHOWING THE CHANGES. 11 MR. STEPHENS: THIS IS THE APRIL 11, 12 2000. 13 MR. GRINDSTAFF: APRIL 11, 2000 MINUTES. 14 MR. BROWN: OKAY. THIS IS THE LETTER. 15 THIS IS WHAT I HAVE ON 707. 16 MR. GRINDSTAFF: OKAY. YOURS ISN'T 17 BLACK-LINED. 18 MR. STEPHENS: THAT'S WHAT WE GOT. 19 MR. BROWN: IS THE HIGHLIGHT THE 20 DIFFERENCES? 21 MR. GRINDSTAFF: YEAH. 22 MR. STEPHENS: THAT'S THE 2000-10. 23 MR. GRINDSTAFF: RIGHT. HE IS LOOKING AT 24 THIS ONE, THE 707. 25 MR. STEPHENS: HERE'S 707. REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . . ~ 'I' ~ ~ ~ ~ W 0.. . III ::f a: f2 o ~ III a: ~ . 54 1 MR. BROWN: OKAY. I'M WITH YOU NOW. 2 MR. STEPHENS: DO YOU HAVE A QUESTION FOR 3 MR. GRIMM? 4 MR. BROWN: YES, I HAVE TWO ITEMS ON THIS 5 THING THAT I WOULD LIKE TO GET IN THERE WHEN HE 6 COMES BACK. 7 THE FIRST ONE IS THAT THEY HAVE OUTLAWED 8 CLOTHESLINES. THAT'S ILLEGAL. YOU CAN'T DO THAT. 9 THERE'S A -- VICE PRESIDENT GORE HAS SAID THAT WE 10 CAN HAVE CLOTHESLINES ANYWHERE WE WANT IN THIS 11 COUNTRY BECAUSE ITS SOLAR HEAT. 12 SO THEY'LL HAVE TO TAKE THAT OUT OF THERE. 13 THEY CAN'T -- IT'S AN ENERGY ACT. SO THAT WILL 14 HAVE TO COME OUT OF THIS. 15 IT SAYS YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE A 16 CLOTHESLINE. IF I BUY A HOUSE IN THE DOWNTOWN 17 CENTER, I'M GOING TO HAVE A CLOTHESLINE. 18 THE SECOND ITEM -- I GUESS MR. GRIMMS WILL 19 PICK THESE UP SO WE DON'T HOLD UP. THE SECOND ITEM 20 IS ON THE FENCES. THEY HAVE LISTED IN DETAIL THE 21 TYPE OF FENCES YOU CAN HAVE, WITH BRICK, ET CETERA. 22 AND I THINK THEY SHOULD ADD VINYL, LIKE IF I 23 WANTED TO PUT A LITTLE, WHITE VINYL PICKET FENCE 24 UP. PAGE 30. 25 THE REASON FOR THAT IS I LIVE IN A HOMEOWNER'S REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. .:.. ~. . ~ ! ~ ~ W 0.. . III ::f ~ o ~ III ~ . 55 1 ASSOCIATION AND THEY WILL NOT LET ME PUT UP A WHITE 2 VINYL FENCE, AND YOU CANNOT PAINT THE WHITE VINYL 3 FENCES FROM HOME DEPO BECAUSE THEY ARE VINYL AND IT 4 WILL PEEL OFF. SO I THINK THEY SHOULD ADD VINYL 5 FENCES IN THERE. 6 BESIDES, THERE'S SOME IN TUSCAWILLA THAT LOOK 7 VERY NICE, SMALL PICKET FENCES THAT LOOK NICE. AND 8 FOR DOWNTOWN RESIDENTIAL AREA, IT WOULD PROBABLY 9 LOOK VERY CAPE MAINE, NEW JERSEY TYPE THING, OR 10 CAPE COD OR WHATEVER. 11 THEY ARE THE TWO ITEMS THAT I FOUND IN THERE, 12 MR. CHAIRMAN, THAT I THINK SHOULD BE PUT IN THERE. 13 BUT IN CREDIT TO THE CITY, I THINK THEY DID GO 14 INTO A LOT MORE DETAIL AND DID A FINE JOB. 15 AND THEN I HAVE A REAL -- IT'S A SHAME 16 MRS. KARR IS NOT HERE BECAUSE I THINK I WILL SPEAK 17 FOR HER A LITTLE BIT. 18 SHE HANDLES, AT SEIMEN'S WESTINGHOUSE, WHICH 19 WAS FORMERLY WESTINGHOUSE, OUR MANUALS WITH OUR 20 CUSTOMERS. AND I THINK SHE'D BE A LITTLE DISMAYED 21 IN THE METHOD OF REVISIONS FOR THE TOWN CENTER 22 DISTRICT CODE AND FOR THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN WHEN 23 ITEM A IS FISH AND THE NEXT TIME IS PARKING. 24 I THINK THAT THE REVISIONS SHOULD HAVE BEEN 25 DOCUMENTED THOROUGHLY. THE PAGE NUMBERS SHOULD REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. '. .:. m ~ ~ ~ o < " z w 0.. . III ::f a: 12 o ~ III ~ . 56 1 HAVE MAINTAINED THEIR CONTINUITY, AND I THINK IT 2 WOULD HAVE BEEN A LOT EASIER TO FIND RATHER THAN MY 3 LITTLE BOOK WHICH HAS THREE PAGES OF EACH PAGE FROM 4 THE REVISIONS FROM '98 UP TO THE YEAR 2000, TWO 5 YEARS OF REVISIONS. 6 MR. GRIMMS, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU COULD 7 HEAR ME OUTSIDE, BUT I MENTIONED THE FENCE AND I 8 MENTIONED THE CLOTHESLINE. 9 MR. GRIMMS: WHAT IS IT THAT YOU DIDN'T 10 LIKE ABOUT THE REVISIONS AND THE LAYOUT OF THEM? 11 MR. BROWN: OH, A CHANGE CONTROL WOULD BE 12 THE PROPER WORD, PROCEDURE FOR CHANGE CONTROL. I 13 THINK IT WOULD HAVE BEEN EASIER FOR EVERYONE, 14 YOURSELF, TOO, YOU KNOW. 15 I THINK YOU'VE DONE AN OUTSTANDING ~0B IN 16 DOING WHAT YOU'VE DONE BECAUSE -- AS A MATTER OF 17 FACT, I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU DID SOME OF THE TRICKS 18 YOU DID BECAUSE YOU KIND OF KEPT A CONTINUITY. 19 IF IT ENDED UP ON J AT THE END OF A PAGE, IT 20 ENDED UP ON J ON THE NEXT ONE. YOU KNOW, SO YOU 21 DID AN OUTSTANDING JOB. 22 BUT THE LAST ONE THAT WE GOT, TO GIVE YOU AN 23 EXAMPLE, AND I WILL JUST SHOW YOU, IF YOU LOOK AT 24 THESE TWO PAGES, THE ONE MARKED IN ORANGE INDICATES 25 THE REVISIONS THAT WERE MADE TO THE LAST TIME ON REALTIME REPORTERS. INC. .. . ~ 'I' ~ ~ ~ ~ W 0.. . III ::f a: 12 o ~ III ~ . 20 21 22 23 24 25 57 1 THESE TWO PAGES, AND YET IT'S ALL ON THE SAME PAGE 2 BUT THE CONTINUITY OF ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR, A, B, 3 C, D IS COMPLETELY CHANGED. 4 WHAT YOU WOULD HAVE FOUND WHEN I MENTIONED 5 MRS. KARR, OVER HERE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE, IT 6 WOULD HAVE SAID SUB 2 OR SUB 3, AND IT WOULD HAVE 7 HAD A REVISION DATE, RATHER THAN ME KEEPING A BOOK 8 FULL OF THE SAME PAGES SINCE DAY ONE. 9 WELL, ANYWAY, THIS TYPE OF STUFF. 10 MR. GRIMMS: THE VERSION YOU SAW BACK 11 THEN AND THE ONE NOW IN MY IN MY AGENDA ITEM 12 OVERVIEW TO YOU, I DID DETAIL THE CHANGES, AND I 13 DID INDICATE THE PAGE NUMBERS. 14 MR. BROWN: OH, YEAH. THAT'S WHAT I 15 SAID. YOU DID AN OUTSTANDING JOB. 11M GIVING YOU 16 CREDIT. I'M NOT CRITICIZING YOU AT ALL, TOM. YOU 17 KNOW THAT. IS I'M JUST SAYING THAT -- WELL, I'M PRETTY GOOD 19 AT KEEPING RECORDS, PROBABLY TOO GOOD, BUT IT MAKES IT EASIER FOR US TO BE ABLE TO PICK IT UP. BUT WHAT I DID BY DOING THIS, WHAT I DID FIND, AND I MUST SAY -- AND THIS IS WHAT I SAID EARLIER. I WENT THROUGH THESE IN DETAIL, AND ANY ITEM THAT THIS BOARD HAD DISCUSSED AND BROUGHT UP TO YOU, MR. GRIMMS, HAS BEEN CHANGED AND IS IN THERE, EVERY REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . . '" ~ ~ ;.- o < ~ W 0.. . III ::f a: f2 o ~ III a: ~ . 58 1 SINGLE ITEM. 2 MR. GRIMMS: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. 3 MR. BROWN: AND I WANT TO SAY THAT I WAS 4 JUST -- I WAS JUST TRYING TO -- THERE'S A COUPLE 5 OTHER THINGS, YOU KNOW, THAT I KNOW -- MAYBE THEY 6 ARE SILLY OR THEY ARE NOT SILLY, BUT EVEN WHEN THE 7 ORDINANCES, THAT THE DATE AND PAGE NUMBERS, OF 8 COURSE, ARE ON THERE, BUT THE DATES WOULD BE A LOT 9 EASIER FOR US TO FOLLOW, AND I THINK FOR EVERYBODY 10 TO FOLLOW REALLY. 11 BUT, NO, YOU DID A FINE JOB. I'M GOING TO 12 SHUT UP NOW. 13 MR. CHAIRMAN. 14 MR. STEPHENS: ANY OTHER COMMENTS FROM 15 THE BOARD? DO I HEAR A MOTION? 16 OH, EXCUSE ME. WE HAVE ANOTHER PUBLIC 17 INPUT. MR. LEVIN. 18 MR. LEVIN: I HAVE SOME CONCERN. 19 COMMISSIONER BROWN BROUGHT UP A COUPLE OF ISSUES 20 AND IT DIDNIT SOUND LIKE -- IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU HAVE 21 A MOTION ON THE ACTUAL COMPLETION, THE ACTUAL ACT. 22 WHITE PICKET FENCES AND THIRTY-NINE PER ACRE, 23 I HAVE NEVER SEEN A PICKET FENCE ON SOMETHING 24 THAT'S A CROWDED APARTMENT COMPLEX. 25 I AGREE WITH THE POINT MADE ABOUT THE ROOF REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. '. J. 8l '" 'I' ~ ~ ~ " z W 0.. . III ::f a: f2 o ~ ~ . 59 1 TOPS FOR THE TOWN CENTER. MAYBE WE SHOULD TAKE 2 LAND OUT OF THE TOWN CENTER THAT COULD BE DEVOTED 3 TO HOUSING AND LEAVE THE TOWN CENTER A COHESIVE 4 TOWN CENTER. 5 AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW WHERE WE ARE GOING TO PUT 6 THE CLOTHESLINES AND WHERE WE ARE GOING TO PUT THE 7 VINYL FENCES. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THIRTY-NINE 8 UNITS PER ACRE. HOW IS THAT IN THE MIDDLE OF OUR 9 TOWN CENTER. 10 THAT'S THE ONLY POINT I'D LIKE TO MAKE. BUT 11 REALLY I HAVE A QUESTION THAT YOU COULD ADDRESS, 12 WHETHER ANY CHANGES THAT YOU NOTED ON BOTH THE ACT 13 OR ON THIS RIGHT HERE ARE ACTUALLY BEING 14 INCORPORATED OR ARE YOU APPROVING IT IN TOTAL TO GO 15 TO THE BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS, OR CITY COUNCIL, 16 EXCUSE ME. 17 MR. STEPHENS: WOULD ANYBODY LIKE TO 18 ANSWER THAT? 19 WELL, THAT'S GOING TO DEPEND ON THIS BOARD. 20 THAT'S GOING TO DEPEND ON THIS BOARD AS TO HOW YOU 21 RECOMMEND IT AS FAR AS THIS ISSUE. 22 WE HAVEN'T PASSED A MOTION YET, HAVEN'T MADE 23 THE MOTION YET, SO I CAN'T ANSWER THAT UNTIL I HEAR 24 A MOTION. 25 TOM, HAVE YOU -- I MEAN, MARC, YOU GOT REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . . ~ 'I' ; ~ ~ W 0.. . III ::f ~ o ~ ~ . 60 1 ANYTHING YOU WANT TO ADD? 2 MR. CLINCH: NO, I DON'T. 3 MR. FERNANDEZ: MR. CHAIR, I WOULD LIKE 4 TO MAKE A MOTION THAT WE RECOMMEND TO THE CITY 5 COMMISSION THE APPROVAL OR ADOPTION OF ORDINANCE 6 707 AS AMENDED, TAKING INTO CONSIDERATION OUR 7 COMMENTS THIS EVENING ABOUT MATTERS THAT WE WOULD 8 LIKE STAFF AND/OR THE CITY COMMISSION TO ADDRESS. 9 FOR EXAMPLE, CLOTHESLINES AND VINYL FENCES. 10 AND WITH THE SAME COMMENTS PREVIOUSLY MADE WHEN -- 11 I BELIEVE I MADE THIS. THERE WAS ANOTHER MOTION 12 MADE ON NOVEMBER THE 24TH, 1999. THAT'S THE TWO OR 13 THREE PAGE ONE THAT YOU MENTIONED. 14 AND AGAIN, THE SAME FINDINGS OF FACT THAT WERE 15 MADE IN THE DECEMBER THE 2ND, 1998 MOTION THAT THE 16 CODE BE ADOPTED, AND SPECIFICALLY APPLICABLE TO 17 THE SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY, CONDITIONED OR SUBJECT TO 18 NEGOTIATION OF A SATISFACTORY DEVELOPER'S AGREEMENT 19 BETWEEN THE PARTIES. 20 AND ONCE AGAIN, MR. GRIMMS, I NEED TO FIND OUT 21 FROM YOU -- THIS IS NOT A PART OF THE MOTION, BUT 22 SINCE ITS ALREADY GOT THE ORC REPORT BACK,' WE DON'T 23 HAVE TO HAVE ANOTHER PUBLIC HEARING TO GO OVER 24 ANYTHING ELSE? 25 THIS IS, IN FACT, GOING TO BE A SECOND READING REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. . .. 8l ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ W 0.. . III ::f a: 12 o ~ a: ~ . 25 61 1 OR AFTER THE ORC REPORT? 2 MR. GRIMMS: OKAY. THIS ITEM, AGENDA 2B, 3 DOES NOT HAVE AN ORC REPORT. 4 MR. FERNANDEZ: I MEANT ON THE 5 COMPREHENSIVE LARGE SCALE. 6 MR. GRIMMS: THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN -- 7 MR. FERNANDEZ: THE LAST ONE WE DID. 8 MR. GRIMMS: WILL GO DIRECTLY TO THE 9 CITY COMMISSION ON THE 24TH. 10 MR. FERNANDEZ: THEY HAVE ALREADY GOT THE 11 ORC REPORT? 12 MR. GRIMMS: RIGHT. 13 MR. FERNANDEZ: WE DON'T HAVE TO SCHEDULE 14 A SECOND PUBLIC HEARING? 15 MR. GRIMMS: THAT IS CORRECT. 16 MR. FERNANDEZ: GOOD. OKAY. THEN I 17 WON'T READDRESS ANYTHING RELATED TO THAT. 18 OKAY. THAT WAS MY MOTION. 19 MR. CLINCH: I'LL SECOND. 20 MR. STEPHENS: THE MOTION HAS BEEN 21 SECONDED. ANY MORE DISCUSSION BEFORE WE CALL THE 22 QUESTION? ANY DISCUSSION? 23 CALL THE ROLL, PLEASE. 24 THE CLERK: TOM BROWN. MR. BROWN: AYE. REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. .. . 16 8l '" 'I' ~ 17 , ~ ~ 18 " z W 0.. . 19 III ::f ~ 20 o ~ ~ 21 22 23 24 . 25 62 1 THE CLERK: BILL FERNANDEZ. 2 MR. FERNANDEZ: AYE. 3 THE CLERK: CARL STEPHENS. 4 MR. STEPHENS: AYE. 5 THE CLERK: MARK CLINCH. 6 MR. CLINCH: AYE. 7 MR. STEPHENS: WE HAD IT ALREADY PASSED. 8 WE DIDN'T NEED YOU. 9 (WHEREUPON, THE FOREGOING PROCEEDINGS 10 WERE CONCLUDED AT 8:25 PM.) 11 12 13 14 15 REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. 63 1 . 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 . 13 14 15 16 8l ~ ~ 17 ~ ~ 18 ~ w 0.. . 19 III ::f a: 12 20 0 ~ a: w 21 ~ 22 23 . 24 25 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE STATE OF FLORIDA: COUNTY OF SEMINOLE: I, JUDITH A. VICK, RPR, CERTIFY THAT I WAS AUTHORIZED TO AND DID STENOGRAPHICALLY REPORT THE FOREGOING PROCEEDINGS; AND THAT THE TRANSCRIPT IS A TRUE RECORD OF THE AFORESAID PROCEEDINGS. I FURTHER CERTIFY THAT I AM NOT A RELATIVE, EMPLOYEE, ATTORNEY, OR COUNSEL OF ANY OF THE PARTIES; NOR AM I A RELATIVE OR EMPLOYEE OF ANY OF THE PARTIES, ATTORNEYS OR COUNSEL CONNECTED WITH THE ACTION; NOR AM I FINANCIALLY INTERESTED IN THE ACTION. DATED THIS 8Sf- DAY OF ~~ L. 2000. ~,()\.J~ VICK, RPR NOTARY PUBLIC STATE OF FLORIDA AT LARGE COMMISSION #CC607401 EXPIRES: 2/2510 1 ~",\"III""""I. ..~'\~6.\th A. ~;,~II'~ ~ ~ ........ ~~ ~ ~ ...:,It-ISSION ;:.. ~ ~ .t;:)Vo' """'f;O- ~ ~ :,).,<;J ~~y <$ ~.. ~ = :~ ~ ;~ ~~ :: =*: tE....g :*= ~a \ ICe 607401 J ~~ ~::;.\. .f:2::: ~~;. ~qflded \,,\\} ~~"...~ ~ % ..o;;..'''ain-lnS\l~..~ ~v~ '~ vB. ....... <)\ ~ 'I'll/I,Ve, ST~i~",,'\: REALTIME REPORTERS, INC. ~"'..... .~ / ,- ,'r " tmru Registered Professional Reporter COpy TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS, FLORIDA CITY COMMISSION- WORKSHOP & REGULAR MEETING 1 TRANSCRIPT OF REGULAR MEETING HELD ON APRIL 24, 2000, BEGINNING AT 5:45 P.M. AT CITY COMMISSION CHAMBERS, 1126 EAST STATE ROAD 434, WINTER SPRINGS, FLORIDA, AND REPORTED BY SANDRA A. MOSER, REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTER AND NOTARY PUBLIC, STATE OF FLORIDA AT LARGE. Realtime ers, Inc. Registered Professional Reporters Certified Video Technicians 1188 Fox Forrest Circle · Apopka, Florida 32712 · (407) 884-4662 · FAX (407) 884-4664 Sandra A. Dawkins, President Professional Reporttng SInce 1977 '1~1 ~. _I~='- . . . 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 PRO C E E DIN G S MAYOR PARTYKA: I BELIEVE THAT'S -- IS THAT COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT'S DEPARTMENT? ORDINANCE 707? DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WELL, ACTUALLY, THAT AND __ THAT'S ONE THING, YES. IT SAYS HERE, THIRD READING. AND I COULD HAVE SWORN THAT WE WERE PASSING IT OVER FOR THE FOURTH READING. MAYOR PARTYKA: THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT, TOO. MR. BLAKE: THAT'S CORRECT. MR. GARGANESE: THAT'S CORRECT. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: HOW WAS IT ADVERTISED? OR DID IT HAVE TO BE ADVERTISED? 13 IT WAS ADVERTISED AS AN 14 MR. GARGANESE: ADOPTION HEARING. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THAT'S OKAY. MR. GARGANESE: YES. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: AND MY MEMORY IS CORRECT. MAYOR PARTYKA: YOU'RE CORRECT. MR. GARGANESE: IT IS THE FOURTH READING. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THE OTHER THING IS THERE'S SOMETHING MORE PARTICULAR WITHIN TH~~ DOCUMENT, AND THE QUESTIONS WOULD PROBABLY BE BEST ANSWERED BY ONE OF THE COMMISSIONERS THAT WAS AT 3 . 1 2 3 4 5 6 . 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE MEETING WITH THE SCHRIMSHERS, BECAUSE I DON'T THINK MY CONCERN CAME UP THE NIGHT OF OUR LAST MEETING, THE NIGHT AND THE MORNING OF OUR LAST MEETING; AND THAT IS, I NOTICE IN THE DEVELOPER'S AGREEMENT __ AND I'D HAVE TO FIND IT -- THAT THEY HAVE TAKEN THE -- IN SCHRIMSHERS' AGREEMENT WHERE THEY'RE REFERENCING THE PARKS, THE FOUR LITTLE PARKS, IT SAYS, THOSE PARKS WILL INCLUDE ALL OF THE RIGHT-OF-WAY AROUND THOSE PARKS. NOW, I KNOW I DIDN'T HEAR IT COME UP THE NIGHT OF THE MEETING THAT WE HAD HERE, THE LENGTHY LAST MEETING WE HAD. AND I'M WONDERING, WAS THAT PART OF YOUR DELIBERATIONS WITH SCHRIMSHER AT THAT WEEKDAY MEETING THAT YOU GUYS HAD? MR. MARTINEZ: AS I RECALL, I THINK COMMISSIONER BLAKE MADE A SUGGESTION THAT THAT BE LEFT UP TO STAFF TO IRON OUT. I GUESS THAT'S WHAT THEY DID. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WELL MR. MARTINEZ: THOSE LITTLE DETAILS, I MEAN. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: NOW, I WANT TO HEAR FROM THE COMMISSIONERS THAT WERE AT THE MEETING. HELP ME OUT HERE, BECAUSE, TO MSi THAT'S A BIG BITE. MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD? . . . 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MCLEOD: THE ONLY ONE -- MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER GENNELL, WHAT SECTION WAS THAT ON? DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: OKAY. I BELIEVE I'M ON PAGE 6. LOOK FOR A PLACE IN THERE THAT SAYS IT WILL INCORPORATE MORE -- AUDIENCE PARTICIPANT: TOP OF THE PAGE. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YES. YES. THESE MINIMUM ACREAGES -- WHICH ARE THE MINIMUMS THAT WE DISCUSSED AT OUR LAST MEETING OF THE SMALL NEIGHBORHOOD SQUARE 5, 4, 2, AND 1, SHALL INCLUDE ALL RIGHTS-OF-WAY AROUND THE PERIMETER OF EACH SMALL NEIGHBORHOOD SQUARE AS DEPICTED IN EXHIBIT A. IF YOU WOULD KINDLY GO TO EXHIBIT A. I THINK THAT -- IT APPEARS TO ME THINGS HAVE GREATLY SHRUNK. SO I'M ASKING YOU, NUMBER ONE, WAS THAT THE WAY YOU-ALL DISCUSSED IT WITH SCHRIMSHER? NUMBER TWO, DOES ANYBODY RECALL IT COMING UP AT THE LAST MEETING, BECAUSE I DO NOT? AND NUMBER THREE, IF NOT, BOTH OF THOSE THINGS I THINK WE NEED TO LOOK AT IT, BECAUSE SOMEBODY HERE THAT'S GOOD WITH ACREAGE COULD TELL V:E EXACTLY HOW MUCH, NOW, THAT THIS POSTAGE STAMP LITTLE 2 AND 4 ARE. . . . 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MAYOR PARTYKA: IS ANYONE HERE THAT TALKED THIS PIECE OUT? THERE WERE DISCUSSIONS ON FRIDAY NIGHT. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WELL, FIRST, MY FIRST QUESTION -- MAYOR PARTYKA: I MEAN, THAT MIGHT GET TO THIS POINT. COMMISSIONER MCLEOD, I'M JUST TRYING TO GET THAT ANSWER. MR. MCLEOD: YES. RIGHTS-OF-WAY WAS NEVER BROUGHT UP, ONLY ON ONE PARTICULAR AREA. AND THAT PARTICULAR AREA WAS THE AREA RIGHT THERE SHOWN AS 17, I BELIEVE, ON OUR MAPS. THAT WAS EDGE DRIVE WHERE THE TRAILS WERE TO COME UP AND COME ALONG THAT GREEN BELT AREA OF THE PARK. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I RECALL THAT. MR. MCLEOD: THAT WAS TO BE IN OUR RIGHT-OF-WAY. OTHER THAN THAT, THERE WAS NO RIGHTS-OF-WAY OF THE PARKS TO BE PART OF THE RIGHT-OF-WAY, TO MY BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, THAT I REMEMBER. MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER BLAKE. MR. BLAKE: I ALMOST CONCUR WITH COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. I DO RECALL A DISCUSSION OF RIGHT-OF-WAY ,ALSO AROUND NUMBER 5, PARK NUMBER 5; AND IN THERE, THERE IS, I BELIEVE, A SPECIFIC DISCUSSION THAT IT . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 . 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 . 6 21 WOULD NOT INCLUDE RIGHT-OF-WAY. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WELL, I -- I'M SORRY. GO AHEAD. MR. BLAKE: I'M GOING TO HAVE TO READ THIS LANGUAGE MORE CAREFULLY. ARE yOU FAMILIAR, MR. ATTORNEY, WITH THE LANGUAGE SHE'S TALKING ABOUT? MR. GARGANESE: YES. MR. BLAKE: AND DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS TO MEAN THAT -- WHEN IT SAYS ALL OF THE RIGHTS-OF-WAY, DOES THAT MEAN ALL THE RIGHT-OF-WAY AVAILABLE UP TO AND INCLUDING ACROSS THE STREET IS COUNTED AS PARK ACREAGE OR THE SIDEWALK AREA THAT'S TYPICAL FRONTAGE ALONG A PARCEL? MR. GARGANESE: IF YOU REFER TO -- THAT'S CORRECT. THERE ARE SEVERAL NEIGHBORHOOD PARKS THAT ARE AT ISSUE HERE. IF YOU REFER TO EXHIBIT A, PARK 1, 2, AND 4 SHOW EITHER RIGHT-OF-WAY OR SIDEWALKS WITHIN THE BOUNDARIES OF THE SMALL NEIGHBORHOOD PARKS. WHEN THE ACREAGES WERE CALCULATED SOME TIME AGO, THE ACREAGES INCLUDED THE RIGHT-OF-WAY OR THE SIDEWALKS. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WELL, THE R:GHT-OF-WAY OR SIDEWALKS FOR THE PARK IS ONE THING. BUT FOR THE RESIDENCES ACROSS THE STREET AND IN THE 22 23 24 25 . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 10 11 12 . 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 . 7 STREET, DID IT INCLUDE THAT? MR. GARGANESE: IN THE STREET? DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT __ LOOK AT NUMBER 2 ON ITEM A. OKAY. FOR INSTANCE, YOU HAVE A PARK THERE AND YOU HAVE THE EXTENSION OF WHAT APPEARS TO BE THEIR INTERPRETATION OF THE RIGHT-OF-WAY, INCLUDING NOT 8 ONLY THE RIGHT-OF-WAY FOR THE PARK BLOCK ITSELF 9 AND ANY SIDEWALK AROUND IT, IT ALSO ENCOMPASSES THE STREET FACING ALL THE RESIDENTIAL AREAS. AND THEN IT GOES FURTHER ONTO THE SIDEWALK AREA OF THOSE RESIDENTIAL AREAS. MR. GARGANESE: OKAY. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: NOW, I SPECIFICALLY DON'T REMEMBER THAT. I SUBMIT TO YOU THAT IT'S TAKING WHAT WE THOUGHT WAS GOING TO BE A HALF- OR A QUARTER-ACRE PARK AND MAKING IT A 50-BY-50 LOT BY THE TIME YOU GET DONE IF THEY DO THAT. NOW, MR. MAYOR, YOU KNOW, IF WE CAN ASK STAFF 20 HOW THIS GOT TO BE HERE, IS WHAT I'D LIKE TO KNOW. I I'M REVIEWING THE NOTES\ IT'S POINT \ 21 MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. 22 FROM THE LAST MEETING ON THIS ISSUE. 23 NUMBER 7 FROM LAST TIME, PARK RELOCATION RADIUS. 24 AND IT DOESN'T TALK TO ANY RIGHT-OF-WAY. 25 KIP. 8 . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 . 14 . 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. LOCKCUFF: I CAN PROBABLY CONTRIBUTE TO SOME OF THE CONFUSION HERE. WHEN WE INITIALLY DID THE ACREAGES, WE DID INCLUDE THE ROADS. SO THE SIZE OF THE PARKS, THE ACTUAL GREEN SPACE AS DESIGNATED BY VICTOR, HASN'T CHANGED, BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE ACREAGES, THE TRACT SIZES, THAT'S SOMETHING WE CAME UP, US AND TERRY. SO IF WE HAD PROBABLY JUST INCLUDED WHAT WAS GREEN SPACE -- YOU KNOW, WE JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE UNDERSTOOD THAT THAT WASN'T ALL THE GREEN. BUT THAT DID INCLUDE THE ABUTTING RIGHTS-OF-WAY. SO IT'S NOT THAT THE PARKS ARE SHRINKING. IT'S JUST THE CLARIFICATION OF WHAT THAT ACREAGE INCLUDES. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: NO. NO. NO. THE PARKS ARE SHRINKING. IF YOU GO BACK TO PAGE 6 OF 21, THAT VERY SPECIFICALLY SAYS -- IT'S OUTLINED ON THE PREVIOUS PAGE -- THE MINIMUM ACREAGES, WHICH ARE, AS I RECALL, THOSE FIGURES: .44, .42, .44, .45. AEE THEY NOT THE ONES THAT WE DISCUSSED AT OUR LAST MEETING? MR. BLAKE: THAT'S CORRECT. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THEN THE NEXT SENTENCE, IT SAYS, THESE MINIMUM ACREAGES INCLUDE ALL RIGHTS-OF-WAY AROUND THE PERIMETER. SO THAT 9 . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . MEANS YOU'RE JUST SHRINKING IT ALL DOWN AND THAT THEY ARE INCLUDING IN THAT FULL AMOUNT THAT WE THOUGHT WE WERE GETTING A .44 PARK, WE'RE GETTING A .20 PARK. MR. LOCKCUFF: THAT'S CORRECT. BUT THE .20 PARK IS WHAT VICTOR'S ORIGINAL MAP REPRESENTED. IT WASN'T A .44. SO WE EXPANDED IT TO .44 BY INCLUDING THE ROADWAYS, BUT THE ACTUAL SIZE OF THE PARKS REPRESENTED ON THE MAP HAVE NOT CHANGED. IT'S JUST WHAT THE BLACK BOX -- WHAT DOES THAT BLACK BOX AROUND THE ACREAGE REPRESENT? THE ANSWER IS IT REPRESENTS THE ROADWAYS AND THE GREEN SPACE. BUT THEY ARE LIKE POSTAGE STAMPS. THEY'RE JUST LITTLE TINY THINGS. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THAT WAS DONE BY THE STAFF. WELL, I HAVE A PERSONAL PROBLEM WITH -- I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT. AT NO TIME, IN NO WAY, IN MY PRESENCE, WAS IT MADE CLEAR TO THIS COMMISSION THAT WE WERE GETTING ANYTHING LESS THAN A .44, WHATEVER, .45 GREEN PARK AREA. NO ONE CLARIFIED OR PARENTHESIZED OR ANYTHING THAT, NUMBER ONE, IT INCLUDES RIGHTS-OF-WAY. AND NUMBER TWO, OF COURSE, COMMISSIONERS, ~OU UNDERSTAND THAT THESE ARE NOT GOING TO BE NEARLY THIS BIG. . . . 1 2 3 4 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 10 MR. LOCKCUFF: WELL, YOU KNOW, THE SIZE OF THE BOXES HASN'T CHANGED. I THINK THAT'S THE CLARIFICATION HERE. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THE SIZE OF THE PARK 5 HAS CHANGED. YOUR BOXES -- I UNDERSTAND WHAT 6 YOU'RE SAYING, BUT I'M NOT -- 7 MR. LOCKCUFF: THE NET GREEN SPACE, YES. 8 THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. 9 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THAT'S RIGHT. FOR INSTANCE, TELL ME, THEN, ON PARK NUMBER 2, EXACTLY HOW BIG OF A PARK THAT WILL BE WHEN WE ANTICIPATED JUST UNDER A HALF ACRE FOR THAT PARK. TELL ME WHAT EXACTLY THE DIMENSIONS OF THE PARK ITSELF WILL BE. MR. LOCKCUFF: OH, I CAN'T TELL YOU EXACTLY. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YES. MAYOR PARTYKA: WELL, I MEAN, I GUESS I'M 18 SITTING HERE AND I'M LOOKING AT THE MAPS FROM 19 APRIL 7TH. 20 MR. MARTINEZ: WHAT I THINK THE COMMISSIONER 21 IS SAYING IS THAT WHEN WE DISCUSSED THIS AT THE 22 i I LAST MEETING ON THE 10TH, IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE --I THE DIMENSIONS WERE SUPPOSED TO BE ~HE ONES AT THEI 23 24 BOTTOM OF PAGE 5. AND ALL THOSE DIMENSIONS WERE 25 SUPPOSED TO BE GREEN SPACE. . . . 1 2 3 4 10 11 12 13 14 ~ 15 16 17 11 SUDDENLY WE FIND THAT THOSE DIMENSIONS NOW ARE NOT ALL GREEN SPACE, THAT THAT INCLUDES PUBLIC RIGHTS-OF-WAY AND THE GREEN SPACE HAS BEEN REDUCED. THAT'S WHAT I THINK YOU'RE SAYING. 5 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT 6 I'M SAYING. 7 MR. GARGANESE: ONE POINT THAT ALSO NEEDS TO 8 BE MADE -- KEEP THIS IN MIND -- THAT THERE MAY 9 NOT __ THE ROADS THAT ARE DEPICTED ON EXHIBIT A MAY NOT COME TO FRUITION WHEN A DEVELOPMENT PERMIT IS ISSUED. THERE'S A RADIUS TEST. SOME OF THOSE BOXES COULD MOVE UP TO 250 FEET AND MAY NOT INCLUDE THE SURROUNDING ROADWAYS AT THE TIME OF DEVELOPMENT PERMITS. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THAT'S A GOOD POINT. BUT THIS DOCUMENT ENTERTAINS THE IDEA OF COMING BACK AND MAKING MINOR MODIFICATIONS AND 18 EVERYTHING. SO, OF COURSE, THE PROPERTY OWNER 19 COULD VERY WELL COME BACK IN AND SAY, OH, WELL, 20 PEOPLE, NOW I'VE MOVED THIS PARK OVER HERE, SO WE 21 HAVE ALL THIS EXTRA RIGHT-OF-WAY THAT I'M ENTITLED 22 TO DO SOMETHING ELSE WITH, BECAUSE YOU DID SAY THAT THIS WAS GOING TO BE OUR RIGHT-OF-WAY. 23 24 I WOULD NOT HAVE OBJECTED, REALLY AND TRULY, 25 IF WE HAD TO GO TO THE MIDDLE OF THE STREET TO GET . '. . 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 12 1 IT. TO THE MIDDLE OF THE STREET, I COULD LIVE 2 WITH. WELL, I MEAN, I'M NOT HAPPY WITH IT. 3 BUT I MEAN, SOMEBODY HERE WHO CAN DO FIGURES, 4 PLEASE TELL ME HOW BIG PARK NUMBER 2 IS GOING TO 5 BE IN FOOTAGE. I WOULD REALLY LIKE THE ANSWER TO 6 THAT QUESTION BEFORE THE MEETING STARTS LATER 7 TONIGHT. 8 MR. MARTINEZ: GREEN SPACE. 9 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THE GREEN PARK, HOW BIG, IN FEET, THAT PARK IS GOING TO BE. MAYOR PARTYKA: WELL, IT'S ROUGHLY 20,000 SQUARE FEET, BASED ON THIS SQUARE FOOTAGE. AND IT COULD BE ANY KIND OF CONFIGURATION THAT COMES UP TO 20,000 SQUARE FEET. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: 20,000 SQUARE FEET BY 17 MAYOR PARTYKA: NO. TOTAL. TOTAL. 18 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I WANT TO KNOW HOW 19 20 WE END UP WITH IN A GREEN PARK. I SEE THE I I AS B I GI 21 PICTURE. I WANT TO KNOW IN FEET. 22 I MEAN, COMMISSIONER MCLEOD SAID, YES, 23 AS THIS ROOM: IF THAT'S WHAT IT IS, I WANT TO 24 KNOW IT BEFORE I VOTE ON IT. 25 MAYOR PARTYKA: WELL, 20,000 IS ABOUT 100 BY . . . 1 ,6 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 13 200. 2 MR. MCLEOD: A LITTLE SHORT OF 100. 3 MAYOR PARTYKA: 100 BY 200, SOMEWHERE AROUND 4 THERE, ANY COMBINATION. 5 MR. LOCKCUFF: ON LOOKING AT THAT MAP, YOU COULD GUESS HALF OF IT WOULD BE GREEN SPACE. 7 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: HALF, EXACTLY. 8 MR. MCLEOD: AND PARK 2 IS ROUGHLY 100 BY 75 9 FEET. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THE SIZE OF A SMALL HOUSE LOT. MR. MCLEOD: 75 FEET BY 100. MAYOR PARTYKA: ON 44? MR. MCLEOD: PARK 2 IS I'M SORRY. YES. MAYOR PARTYKA: PARK 2 IS .44 ACRES. MR. MCLEOD: YES. BUT IF YOU TAKE YOUR SCALE -- DOWN BELOW, WE HAVE A SCALE -- GO MARK 18 YOUR PARK, BRING IT TO YOUR SCALE, SEE HOW LONG IT I , \ I THIS DESIGN IS, IT'S NOT REALLY DRIVEN -- IT'S NOTI I IF YOU USE .44 ACRES, 19 SHOWS IT. 20 MAYOR PARTYKA: RIGHT. WELL, I THINK WHAT 21 22 REALLY WRITTEN TO SCALE. 23 THAT COMES OUT TO BE ABOUT -- WITHOUT THE EXACT 24 CALCULATION SOMEWHERE ABOUT 20,000 SQUARE FEET. 25 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: BUT, PAUL, YOU'RE . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 14 TAKING OFF THE BIG PART OF ALL AROUND THE -- MAYOR PARTYKA: WELL, WHAT MR. GARGANESE IS SAYING IS THOSE STREETS MAY NOT BE THERE, POTENTIALLY; IS THAT CORRECT? SO THEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT .44 LAND THAT CAN MOVE AROUND. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: NO. THAT THE PROPERTY OWNER, AT THAT TIME, CAN COME BACK IN AND NEGOTIATE THAT HE WANTS TO BUILD MORE HOUSES. BECAUSE HE'S GOT ALL THIS EXTRA LAND THAT HE WAS GOING TO USE FOR RIGHT-OF-WAY, AND NOW HE DOESN'T HAVE TO USE IT FOR RIGHT-OF-WAY. I'M NOT LOOKING FOR A PROBLEM HERE. ALL I'M TRYING -- MAYOR PARTYKA: NO. I'M TRYING TO ANSWER -- I MEAN, I DON'T HAVE THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: ALL I'M LOOKING FOR IS A REASONABLENESS HERE OF WHAT WE EXPECTED, AS A COMMISSION, TO END UP WITH IN PARKS AND, IN FACT, WHAT WE'RE REALLY ENDING UP WITH. I MEAN, I CAN ENVISION THE PROPERTY OWNER COMING IN HERE AND SAYING, WELL, WE'VE BEEN NEGOTIATING WITH YOUR STAFF IN GOOD FAITH ALL THE TIME. THEY ALL KNEW THAT AND WE ALL KNEW THAT. BUT UP HERE ON THIS DAIS, I'M NOT SURE THAT ANYBODY KNEW THAT. . . . 15 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 MR. MARTINEZ: THE LANGUAGE HAS TO CONCUR WITH WHAT WAS AGREED UPON ON APRIL 10TH, AND THAT WAS THE .44 WOULD BE GREEN SPACE. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: PARKS, YES. MR. MARTINEZ: GREEN SPACE. THAT'S ALL WE'RE LOOKING FOR. THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: KIP, WHY DIDN'T WE JUST __ IN OTHER WORDS, DID THEY ASK THAT IT ENCOMPASS ALL THE RIGHT-OF-WAY ALL THE WAY AROUND? MR. LOCKCUFF: NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT. THIS WAS JUST SOMETHING WHEN WE DREW THE LINES AND WE SCALED IT OFF AND SAID, HERE'S AN ACREAGE. IF YOU WANTED THE ACTUAL ACREAGE AS REPRESENTED IN VICTOR'S DRAWING, YOU KNOW, THE LITTLE POSTAGE STAMP THAT SAID .20, IT WOULD BE IN THE SAME PLACE. IT'S JUST THE .44 INCLUDES THE ROADS. THE PARK SIZE HASN'T CHANGED. MAYBE THE REALITY OF WHAT YOU THOUGHT WAS GREEN SPACE HAS CHANGED. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I WOULD SAY SO. TO ME, THE PARK -- YOU DON'T TELL KIDS TO GO PLAY BALL IN THE STREET. SO THE STREET THAT IS ENVISIONED THERE IS NOT PARK. IT'S STREET. I THINK IT'S VERY CLEAR TO ANYBODY WITH CHILDREN. SO I CAN'T CONCEIVE OF CALLING A STREET PART OF A 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 . 1 PARK. IT JUST DOESN'T GO DOWN VERY WELL WITH ME. 2 YEAH, FOUR STREETS. I MEAN, TO THINK THAT WE 3 SPENT ALL THE TIME BARGAINING AND TRYING TO GET 4 THIS FOR THE CITIZENS OF THAT AREA, NOT REALIZING 5 THAT IT WAS GOING TO BE WHITTLED DOWN TO HALF OF 6 WHAT WE WERE DOING, AND WE WERE ALREADY 7 DISAPPOINTED WITH THE SMALL SIZES WE HAD. 8 I'M FINISHED. THAT WAS MY COMMENT. WE CAN 9 BRING IT UP LATER. YOU CAN DO WHAT YOU WANT WITH 10 IT, BUT-- 11 MAYOR PARTYKA: I THINK WE MAY HAVE TO WAIT 12 UNTIL MR. GRINDSTAFF IS HERE OR SOMEONE ELSE. . 13 WE'LL BRING THIS POINT UP. 14 MR. MCLEOD: I'D LIKE TO COMMENT ON IT. 16 MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. .' MR. MCLEOD: IT ROUGHLY LOOKS LIKE NUMBER 2 15 17 IS GOING TO END UP AT WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS 20,000 18 SQUARE FEET, ABOUT HALF THAT, ABOUT TEN. 19 BUT I THINK THE POINT IS HERE, KIP, HOW FAR 20 BACK IN YOUR AGREEMENTS WAS THIS DONE? I MEAN, 21 THIS APPARENTLY HASN'T BEEN DONE SINCE OUR LAST 22 COMMISSION MEETING UNTIL NOW. IT WAS DONE 23 PREVIOUSLY IN THE NEGOTIATIONS THAT YOU HAD EARLY- 24 ON WITH THE SCHRIMSHERS REGARDING THE PARKS. THE . 25 LANGUAGE HAS JUST NOW BEEN -- . . . 17 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. LOCKCUFF: THAT'S REAL RECENTi THURSDAY OR SOMETHING. MR. GARGANESE: THE LANGUAGE IS JUST A CLARIFICATION OF AN EXHIBIT THAT WE'VE ALL BEEN GOING BY FOR A COUPLE OF MONTHS. MR. MCLEOD: OKAY. THE LANGUAGE IS AN EXHIBIT. BUT I GUESS THE THING THAT THE COMMISSION'S LACKING HERE -- OR I'M LACKING -- WAS THAT EARLY IN THE NEGOTIATIONS, THOSE RIGHTS-OF-WAY WERE PART OF THE PARK, AND IT WAS ALWAYS PART OF THE PARK AS STAFF SAW THAT IN EARLY NEGOTIATIONS. IT'S NOTHING THAT'S HAPPENED IN THE LAST WEEK. MR. LOCKCUFF: NO. MR. MCLEOD: SO ALL I WOULD HAVE TO SAY IS I'M VERY SORRY THAT I WASN'T AWARE OF THAT AND I WISH I'D BEEN AWARE OF IT DURING THE MEETINGS WE HAD. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE STAFF SHOULD HAVE PROBABLY BROUGHT US UP TO SPEED AS TO WHAT THAT MEANT. I DON'T KNOW THAT, AT THIS LATE HOUR, THAT WE CAN BLAME ANYONE OTHER THAN OUR OWN STAFF FOR THAT INFORMATION THAT WAS OUT THERE TO US. I'M SURE IT'S NOT PART OF THE SCHRIMSHER - ORGANIZATION. THE PROBLEM HERE IS THE AGREEMENT'S FINALLY . . . 18 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BEING WRITTEN AND IT'S IN BLACK AND WHITE TO US, AND NOW IT'S BECOME APPARENT. SO I DON'T KNOW THAT -- YOU KNOW, IT'S A POINT THAT, AT THIS POINT, THAT IT BECOMES TIME TO GO BACK AND TRY TO RENEGOTIATE GREEN SPACE. THE GREEN SPACE IN THE DRAWING WAS ALWAYS HERE. THE PROBLEM IS THAT THERE WAS NEVER A WINDOW AROUND THE DRAWING THAT SAID, THIS IS WHAT WE'RE TALKING ON ACREAGE AND THIS IS REALLY THE GREEN SPACE. THE GREEN SPACE -- I AGREE -- WAS STILL THE SAME. IT'S NOT, ACREAGE-WISE, THE SAME AS WE SAW IT. WE SAW THAT NUMBER 2 AS BEING A .44 AND NOT NECESSARILY A .22 IN GREEN SPACE ONLY. SO I WOULD HAVE TO FEEL THAT MAYBE WE WERE A LITTLE BIT MISLED INSIDE OUR OWN DOORS, BECAUSE OF WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT THERE. I STILL HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS EXHIBIT ON THIS THING, BECAUSE I HAD ASKED THAT THEY DATE MAYOR PARTYKA: THE DATE'S ON TOP. MR. MCLEOD: I'M SORRY. IT'S DATED 4/20. OKAY. THE DATE WAS SO FINE PRINT I HAD A HARD TIME SEEING IT. ALL RIGHT. I APPRECIATE THAT. AND I THINK THERE WAS'-SOME OTHER THINGS THAT HAD BEEN ASKED TO BE PUT UP TOP ON THESE THINGS. I'M NOT SURE THAT THAT'S ALL BEEN DONE. 19 . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 . . 23 24 25 DO yOU KNOW IF THAT'S BEEN TAKEN CARE OF AT THIS TIME? I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHAT IT WAS, BUT I BELIEVE MR. GRINDSTAFF HAD ASKED FOR CERTAIN THINGS TO BE PUT UP THERE ON TRACT SIZING AND TRACT LOCATIONS. I DON'T HAVE MY NOTES FROM LAST WEEK TO BE ABLE TO ANSWER WHAT THAT IS. MAYOR PARTYKA: IS THAT IN REFERENCE TO THE EXHIBITS IN TERMS OF THE EXHIBITS MATCHING WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT? MR. ,MCLEOD: ON THIS ONE HERE, PAUL. IN THE UPPER CORNER, WE HAD ACREAGE AND WE HAD A LOCATION OF THOSE. MAYOR PARTYKA: RIGHT. MR. MCLEOD: OH, I KNOW WHAT IT WAS'. IT WAS THE NAME OF THE PARKS ON THOSE EXHIBITS UP THERE. IN OTHER WORDS, LIKE EXHIBIT 1 -- OR TRACT SIZE 1 WAS .45 ACRES, AND IT HAD A PARK NAME AFTER IT. THEN AS YOU READ THROUGH YOUR EXHIBIT, IT ALSO TOOK YOU TO THAT BEING THE PARK THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT. I THINK I'M CORRECT ON THAT. MR. GARGANESE: THE NAME OF THE PARK IS SMALL NEIGHBORHOOD SQUARE NUMBER 1. MR. MCLEOrri I UNDERSTAND THAT. BUT I THINK WHAT WE ALL HAD ASKED, ALSO, AND MR. GRINDSTAFF HAD BROUGHT IT UP, THAT MAYBE WE SHOULD PUT THE . . . 20 1 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PARKS' NAMES BESIDES THESE THINGS SO IT BECOMES LESS CONFUSING DOWN THE ROAD -- THE NAMES MAY CHANGE __ SO THAT WE HAD GONE AHEAD AND PUT THE INFORMATION THERE SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO LEAF BACK AND FORTH. IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT THIS PAGE AND YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT MAGNOLIA PARK, YOU KNEW THAT 7 WAS MAGNOLIA PARK. ON HERE, IT HAPPENS TO POINT IT OUT. FOR INSTANCE, 4 DOESN'T TELL YOU WHAT PARK IT IS OR 5 DOESN'T TELL YOU THE PARK. MR. GARGANESE: IT DOESN'T HAVE A NAME. MR. MCLEOD: NO NAME 4 AND NO NAME 5. MR. GARGANESE: OTHER THAN THE NUMBER 5 OR NUMBER 4. MR. MCLEOD: ALL RIGHT. SO WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME YOU'VE DONE IS LABELED THE ONES THAT HAD THE NAME, THEN, ON THE EXHIBIT AND DIDN'T PUT THEM UP IN THE UPPER HEADING. MR. GARGANESE: THAT'S CORRECT. MR. MCLEOD: OKAY. FINE. MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD -- OR LET'S SEE. COMMISSIONER BLAKE, YOU HAVE THE i \ I Hd I FLOOR. MR. BLAKE: NO. MAYOR PARTYKA: MR. GRINDSTAFF -- I NOTICE . . ....... 21 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 JUST WALKED IN. WOULD YOU WISH TO ASK -- SHOULD WE ASK THE QUESTION OF THE PARK SITUATION RIGHT NOW? DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: NO. LET'S JUST HOLD IT, I THINK. MR. MCLEOD: NO. OH, PLEASE, I WOULD LIKE TO GO HOME TONIGHT. IF WE CAN GET A SIMPLE ANSWER MAYOR PARTYKA: MR. GRINDSTAFF, COULD YOU COME UP HERE. MR. MCLEOD: LET'S DO THAT, AND THEN LET'S PLEASE NOT BRING THAT UP AT THE COMMISSION MEETING. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: MR. MAYOR? MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. YOU MAY HAVE THE FLOOR. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WHEN YOU'RE DONE, I HAVE A COUPLE OTHER QUESTIONS ON THIS AGREEMENT. I JUST WANT TO LET YOU KNOW. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. THAT'S FINE. WELL, COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ, YOU HAVE A QUESTION ON THIS ONE, BECAUSE -- MR. MARTINEZ: I JUST WANT TO REPEAT WHAT I SAID. NOW, TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION, ON APRIL 10TH, REGARDLESS OF WHAT VICTOR DOVER SAID ON THE PLAN READS FROM BEFORE, MY RECOLLECTION OF THE LAST MEETING WAS THAT WE AGREED THAT THOSE 22 . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 . 15 . 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 FIGURES THAT WERE LISTED FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL PARK WERE SUPPOSED TO BE GREEN SPACE. IF IT SAYS .44, IT WAS .44 GREEN SPAC~ REGARDLESS OF ANYTHING ELSE. IF YOU GET THE MINUTES OF THE LAST MEETING, SOMEWHERE IN THERE THAT WILL BE THERE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I DO HAVE A TRANSCRIPT FROM THE LAST MEETING, SO WE MAY DO JUST THAT. I DON'T THINK YOU'RE GOING TO FIND THAT, SIR. MAYOR PARTYKA: WELL, LET'S TALK THAT QUESTION. COMMISSIONER GENNELL, YOU RAISED THE QUESTION, SO YOU MIGHT AS WELL BRING THAT UP AND SEE WHAT'WE ALL UNDERS100D. AND YOU HAD THE MEETING WITH THE CITY MANAGER ON FRIDAY NIGHT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE'VE HAD A LOT OF MEETINGS. I HAVE A TRANSCRIPT PREPARED BY THE COURT REPORTER LAST MEETING, NOT THE CITY MINUTES. THE CITY MINUTES MAY REFLECT SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT VERSIONS, BUT WE GOT A TRANSCRIPT, AND WE'LL BE HAPPY TO GO THROUGH THAT. I CAN TELL YOU RIGHT NOW, IF THE ISSUE -- ANDj I WALKED IN ON THE TAIL END OF IT -- THE SIZE OF THE PARK MAYOR PARTYKA: LET'S POSE THE QUESTION, AND . . . 23 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THEN YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THE COMMENT WAS -- AND WE'VE KIND OF GONE UP AND DOWN THE COMMISSION. I ASKED THE COMMISSIONERS IF THE TWO COMMISSIONERS THAT SAT IN WITH YOU ON THAT WEEKDAY HAD ANY RECOLLECTION OF THE .44 OR .42 OF ANY OF THESE PARKS, INCLUDING THE RIGHT-OF-WAY ALL THE WAY AROUND THEM. THEY SAID THAT THEY DID NOT. WE POLLED OURSELVES HERE AND CANNOT HAVE ANY RECALL -- WE AGREE THAT THE SURROUNDINGS OF THESE PARKS, THERE WAS NO MENTION MADE TO US 'BY OUR STAFF OR BY YOU, BY ANYBODY, THAT THESE .44 ACRES INCLUDED THE RIGHT-OF-WAY ALL THE WAY AROUND ALL OF THE PARKS. NOW, KIP ADVISED US THAT, YES, IT WAS PUT IN AND ALL THAT. AND SO THE QUESTION IS: IN OTHER WORDS, WHERE THIS COMMISSION UNDERSTOOD -- I'M SAYING THIS IN ALL SINCERITY WHEN WE LOOKED AT .44 AND YOU KNOW WE NICKELED AND DIMED THESE THINGS INCH BY INCH TO TRY AND KEEP WHAT WE COULD -- WE ANTICIPATED .44 ON THAT PARTICULAR ONE OF A GREEN PARK. AND, IN FACT, WE'RE GETTING MUCH LESS. WE'RE GETTING ABOUT -- ON THAT PARK, WE GET THE SIZE OF A SMALL HOUSE LOT BY THE TIME YOU TAKE IN ALL THE RIGHTS-OF-WAY AND EVERYTHING. . . . 24 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 NOW, WAS THAT YOUR INTENT WHEN YOU WERE DEALING WITH US HERE? MR. GRINDSTAFF: THE ANSWER TO THAT IS YES. BUT LET ME EXPLAIN HOW WE GOT THERE. WE GOT THERE -- WE ASKED THE QUESTION SOMEWHERE ALONG THE WAY -- IF YOU'LL NOTICE THOSE ROADS AROUND THE PARK, THEY'RE SINGLE-LANE ROADS. THEY'RE NOT THE DOUBLE-WIDE ROADS. AND IF YOU PUT A SCALE TO IT -- IN THE BEGINNING WHEN THESE THINGS CAME OUT, IN THE VERY BEGINNING, AS TO THE SIZE OF THE PARKS, IF YOU PUT A SCALE TO IT AROUND THE PARK, AS WELL AS AROUND THE SINGLE-LANE ROADS THAT GO AROUND THE PERIMETER OF THE PARK, THAT'S HOW THOSE ACREAGE NUMBERS COME UP. 13 14 15 16 17 NOW, I THINK IF YOU TALK TO VICTOR UNFORTUNATELY, THIS WHOLE PLAN IS ABOUT VICTOR'S AVAILABILITY, IN SOME RESPECTS, UNTIL WE GET 18 19 20 THERE. IF YOU TALK TO VICTOR, I THINK YOU'RE GOING TO SEE THE IMPORTANT PART ABOUT THAT PARK --I AND I DON'T PRETEND TO DO WHAT HE DOES, BUT THIS IS MY IMPRESSION OF WHAT HE MEANT BY THAT, WAS THAT THAT LITTLE GREEN PARK AREA TOGETHER WITH THE OPEN SPACE THAT SURROUNDS IT IN THE FORM OF SINGLE-LOADED ROADS IS WHAT CREATES THIS SENSE OF 21 22 23 24 25 25 . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 . 14 15 16 . 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 FEEL AND THIS SENSE OF PLACE AND LOCATION AND A SQUARE LITTLE COMMUNITY PARK. NOW, IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, WELL, LET'S TAKE IT OUT FURTHER, AND THEN PUT MORE ROADS AROUND THAT, THAT'S GOING TO BE A PROBLEM. AND MICHAEL'S NOT HERE. I THOUGHT HE WOULD BE HERE BY NOW. BUT I CAN TELL YOU WE HAVE, AMONG OURSELVES, SPECIFICALLY DISCUSSED THAT AND CAME TO GRIPS WITH THE SCALE. AND THE SCALE INCLUDED THE ROADS. DISCUSSED IT WITH -- I THINK IT WAS KIP AND WITH DOVER, AND THAT'S WHAT IT WAS INTENDED TO DO. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WELL, YOU KNOW, IN ALL FAIRNESS, VICTOR DOVER CAN'T BE HERE, AND HE'S NOT THE ONLY SOLE AUTHORITY TEAT WE HAVE WHEN WE'RE DEALING WITH THESE THINGS. MR. GRINDSTAFF: OFTENTIMES, MA'AM, WHEN WE ASK THE QUESTIONS, WE HAVE TO WAIT ON VICTOR DOVER'S RESPONSE, BECAUSE HE'S NOT HERE. AND EVEN THOUGH HE'S NOT THE SOLE PERSON, I RESPECT THAT AND I UNDERSTAND IT. BUT THIS IS NOT NEW TO US AND I'M NOT TRYING TO BLAME ANYBODY, BECAUSE I THINK IT STILL WORKS.~--I THINK IT'S STILL OKAY. THIS IS NOT LIKE A PROBLEM THAT GOT BY. . . . 1 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 26 I THINK IF WE HAD A BIG SCALE DRAWING ALL ALONG, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN PROBABLY MORE HELPFUL. 3 WE HAVE SIMILAR QUESTIONS OF OUR OWN. 4 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WHAT I'M SAYING IS IT 5 DID GET BY US. SO WHEN WE READ THE ONE LINE WHERE 6 IT SAYS, ALL THE MINIMUM HERE INCLUDES ALL THE 7 RIGHT-OF-WAY ALL THE WAY AROUND THE WHOLE PARK, IT 8 TOOK US BY SURPRISE. 9 AND WE WILL PLACE A GOOD DEAL OF BLAME ON OUR STAFF, BECAUSE THEY DID NEED TO HAVE NOTIFIED US. THEY REALLY DID. BUT I THINK YOU CAN AGREE THAT WE NEVER DISCUSSED HERE THAT THAT INCLUDED THE RIGHT-OF-WAY ALL THE WAY AROUND. NOBODY EVER SAID, YOU COMMISSIONERS REALIZE THAT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I DON'T RECALL THAT DISCUSSION OF THESE MINUTES. MR. MARTINEZ RECALLS 18 IT TWO WEEKS AGO. I DON'T RECALL IT. WE'LL BE 19 HAPPY TO LOOK THROUGH IT. I DON'T RECALL THAT 20 DISCUSSION TAKING PLACE HERE. BUT I DO KNOW THAT AMONG OURSELVES AND STAFF, WE HAVE DISCUSSED THAT.! 21 22 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I UNDERSTAND WHAT 23 YOU'RE SAYING. - I APPRECIATE WHERE YOU'RE COMING 24 FROM. IT JUST CAME AS QUITE A SURPRISE TO ME. 25 AND WHEN I RAISED IT, IT CAME AS A SURPRISE TO THE . . . 10 11 12 27 1 REST OF THE COMMISSION. THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING. 2 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I UNDERSTAND. 3 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS AT 4 THIS TIME? DID YOU HAVE A COUPLE? 5 MR. MARTINEZ: I HAD A -- ON THE MINUTES. 6 MAYOR PARTYKA: I WAS JUST SAYING, SINCE WE 7 HAD MR. GRINDSTAFF -- 8 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I DO. I HAVE TWO MORE 9 QUESTIONS ON THIS. I THINK YOU CAN ANSWER THESE OFF THE TOP OF YOUR HEAD. LAST MEETING, WHERE IT'S INTERIOR BUFFERS AND WALLS AND FENCES, I SPECIFICALLY POINTED OUT THAT 13 I THOUGHT WE NEEDED, STILL, A PROVISION FOR A 14 BUFFER OR WALL BETWEEN A RESIDENTIAL AND 15 COMMERCIAL. EVEN IN THE TOWN CENTER WHERE YOU 16 HAVE THAT GROCERY STORE, LET'S SAY, AND MAYBE 17 TOWNHOUSES BEHIND IT, TO HAVE NO BUFFER AND 18 DUMPSTERS AND SEMIS AND EVERYTHING, I JUST DON'T 19 THINK IT'S A GOOD THING. AND IT'S NOT ADDRESSED 20 HERE UNDER ITEM NUMBER 12. 21 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I DO RECALL THAT 22 DISCUSSION. I DON'T HAVE ITEM 12 IN FRONT OF ME. 23 - I JUST WALKED IN WHEN YOU CALLED ME UP HERE. 24 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: ONE SENTENCE. DO YOU 25 WANT ME TO READ IT? . . . 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 28 1 MR. GRINDSTAFF: SURE. 2 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: IT SAYS, l1INTERIOR 3 BUFFER WALLS AND FENCES. BUFFER WALLS AND FENCES 4 SEPARATING DIFFERENT TYPES OF LAND USES WILL BE 5 ALLOWED, BUT NOT REQUIRED, WITHIN THE INTERIOR 6 PORTION OF THE CENTER DISTRICT. 11 7 MR. GRINDSTAFF: MY RECOLLECTION OF THAT 8 DISCUSSION, MA'AM, WAS EXACTLY THAT. I THINK I'D 9 LIKE -- MAYBE WE CAN POLL THE FOLKS THAT WERE HERE TO THE POINT WHERE WE EVEN SPECIFICALLY TALKED ABOUT THE NEW ORDINANCE BEING -- REQUIRING IT, BUT IT COULD BE WAIVED. WE SAID, NO, LET'S GET OUT OF THE WAIVER PART. WITHIN TOWN CENTER, IT COULD BE PERMITTED, BUT NOT REQUIRED INTERNALLY. AND I THINK THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS SPECIFICALLY AGREED TO WITH 17 VICTOR DOVER AND STAFF AND BOTH COMMISSIONER BLAKE\ l I l8 AND COMMISSIONER MCLEOD AT THAT MEETING THAT WE 19 HAD. I DO REMEMBER YOU BRINGING IT UP, THOUGH. 20 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: DIDN'T THE COMMISSION 21 LEAVE IT, THOUGH, THAT -- IN OTHER WORDS, THAT 22 THAT WOULD APPLY AND COULD YOU APPLY FOR WAIVERS? 23 MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT IS NOT MY 24 RECOLLECTION. I THINK COMMISSIONER MCLEOD MAY 25 HAVE A VIEW ON THAT. I MEAN, YOU'RE NODDING YOUR . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 . 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 - -- - 23 24 . 25 29 HEAD IS THE REASON I -- MR. MCLEOD: WELL, NO. MY VIEW IS THAT WE DID HAVE DISCUSSIONS WITH VICTOR DOVER ON THIS THING. WE HAD IT NOT ONLY IN OUR MEETING, BUT WE HAD IT HERE. AND VICTOR HAD SUGGESTED THAT THE BUFFER WALLS AND FENCES TO SEPARATE DIFFERENT TYPES OF THE LAND USES COULD BE ALLOWABLE, BUT SHOULDN'T BE SOMETHING MANDATORY WITHIN THE TOWN DISTRICT, BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T WANT TO HAVE FENCES ALL THROUGH THE TOWN DISTRICT. YOU'RE TRYING TO GET A MORE CONGESTED PARTY AND PEOPLE IN A SMALLER AREA AND YOU DON'T, EVERYWHERE YOU TURN, HAVE TO HAVE A FENCE. NOW, IF AN AREA WANTED TO PUT A FENCE, THEN THAT WOULD BE ALLOWABLE, MORE OF THE RULE THAN TO HAVE TO SAY THAT IT'S MANDATORY, AND THEN THEY HAVE TO COME BACK TO GET IT DISAPPROVED. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT'S MY RECOLLECTION, AS \ WELL. I THINK IF YOU HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO - - YOU! I KNOW, IF YOU HAD A DUMPSTER AND SOME UNDESIRABLE i PART OF A -- BEHIND A COMMERCIAL AREA, MARKET WOULD DICTATE THAT YOU SHIELD THAT. MR. MCLEOD: DUMPSTER ENCLOSURES SHOULD BE SHIELDED. BUT SHOULD THE WHOLE PARKING LOT BE . ~ . . 30 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SHIELDED WAS BASICALLY -- VICTOR DOVER'S FEELING WAS NO. YOU WANT TO HAVE AS MUCH OPEN FEELING AND OPEN SPACE AS POSSIBLE, AS I RECOLLECT IT. YOU MAY ASK COMMISSIONER BLAKE. MAYOR PARTYKA: I HAVE THE NOTES FROM THE LAST MEETING. SPECIFICALLY, THAT LANGUAGE IS EXACTLY WHAT WE AGREED TO SUBJECT TO THE NEW WALL ORDINANCE, AND THAT WILL COME UP. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: RIGHT. OKAY. AND THE NEW WALL ORDINANCE SETS FORTH IN THERE THAT YOU CAN GET A WAIVER IN THE TOWN CENTER MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: -- AM I RIGHT? MAYOR PARTYKA: I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE NEW ORDINANCE -- MR. GRINDSTAFF: NOW, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, MR. MAYOR, I THINK YOU'RE UNDOING, IN THE ADD-ON CLAUSE, WHAT WAS AGREED TO IN THE FRONT END. I MEAN, SUBJECT TO THE NEW WALL ORDINANCE, WHICH IS GOING TO REQUIRE IT, IS JUST NOT WHAT WAS AGREED TO. NOW, IF IT NEEDS TO BE REVISITED -- DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: IS THAT IN THE MINUTES, PAUL? MAYOR PARTYKA: NO. I WAS LOOKING AT MY OWN . . . 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 31 1 NOTES. THAT'S ALL. WHATEVER THE FACTS ARE THE 2 FACTS. IF I WROTE THEM WRONG, THEN WE'LL 3 CLARIFY. I JUST PUT "NEW WALL ORDINANCE." THAT'S 4 ALL IT IS. OKAY. 5 MR. MCLEOD: CAN WE POSSIBLY HEAR 6 COMMISSIONER BLAKE TO SEE HOW HE RECALLED THE 7 MEETING WITH MR. DOVER AND THE SCHRIMSHERS? 8 MR. BLAKE: IN THE MEETING THAT INCLUDED 9 COMMISSIONER MCLEOD AND MYSELF, STAFF REPRESENTATIVES FROM THE SCHRIMSHERS, AS WELL AS VICTOR DOVER, THERE WAS DISCUSSION ABOUT THE USE OF INTERNAL WALLS. AND GENERALLY, INTERNAL WALLS WERE NOT TO BE REQUIRED. HOWEVER, THEY WERE AVAILABLE FOR USE. AND ONE OF THE MAIN KEY POINTS THAT VICTOR BROUGHT UP WAS THAT IF YOU THINK ABOUT PLACES LIKE! I CHARLESTON WHERE PEOPLE HAVE WALLS AND LITTLE GARDENS, THIS IS A DOWNTOWN-TYPE CENTER THAT DOESN'T HAVE WALLS LIKE SOME OF OUR NEIGHBORHOODS AROUND HERE DO, SEPARATING THIS NEIGHBORHOOD FROM THAT NEIGHBORHOOD. IT'S ALL ONE COHESIVE AREA. I DO SHARE, HOWEVER, COMMISSIONER GENNELL'S CONCERNS ABOUT THE BACK SIDE OF CERTAIN TYPES OF USES, SHOULD THEY ABUT LESS INTENSIVE USES, IF YOU WILLi SPECIFICALLY THAT OF DUMPSTERS OR THE BACK . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 32 SIDE OF GROCERY STORES' LOADING DOCKS, THINGS OF THAT NATURE. IT'S ALWAYS BEEN OUR INTENTION TO KEEP THOSE TYPES OF EXTERNALITIES CONFINED TO WITHIN THE USE THAT IS RIGHT THERE ON THAT PARCEL. WE DID NOT HAVE THAT PORTION OF THE DISCUSSION IN OUR MEETINGS. THE PORTION OF THE DISCUSSION THAT WE HAD IN OUR MEETINGS WAS THAT THIS IS AN OVERALL, COHESIVE, HIGHER INTENSITY-TYPE DEVELOPMENT AND THAT THOSE PEOPLE COMING IN FOR THE LOWER INTENSITY USES IN THIS AREA ALREADY KNOW THAT HIGHER INTENSITY IS RIGHT OUT THEIR WINDOW OR RIGHT OUT THEIR DOOR OR OUT THEIR BACK DOOR. AND BECAUSE OF THAT, CERTAIN TYPES OF PROTECTIONS THAT WE AFFORD IN OTHER AREAS OF THE CITY ARE NOT AFFORDED THERE, BECAUSE THEY'RE PART OF A HIGHER INTENSITY USE. IT ALL COMES BACK TO BUYER BEWARE OR KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON BEFORE YOU GET THERE. WE DON'T QUITE KNOW, AT THIS POINT IN TIME, JUST HOW THE TOWN CENTER AREA'S GOING TO DEVELOP AND WHAT PORTION OF IT IS GOlNG TO BE HIGHER INTENSITY COMMERCIAL USES OR WHAT PORTION IS GOING TO BE LOWER INTENSITY RESIDENTIAL USES. BUT WE AGREE THAT ALL THOSE TYPES OF USES ARE GOING TO . . . 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 33 1 HOPEFULLY TAKE PLACE IN THAT AREA. 2 INDEED, I KNOW ON SOME OF THE DRAWINGS AND 3 SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WE PERCEIVE IS OFFICE 4 BUILDINGS OR RETAIL DOWNSTAIRS WITH APARTMENTS, 5 WHICH IS A TYPE OF RESIDENTIAL USE, UPSTAIRS. 6 NOW, OF COURSE, THEY'RE SEPARATED BY WALLS OR 7 FLOORS HORIZONTALLY. BUT THEY'RE NOT SEPARATEO BY 8 A WALL FROM THE GROCERY STORE THAT'S NEXT DOOR OR 9 SOME OTHER USES. I THINK, PROBABLY, MR. GRINDSTAFF, THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION THAT WOULD MAKE COMMISSIONER GENNELL FEEL BETTER, AND I KNOW ME FEEL BETTER ALSO, IS THAT, PERHAPS, WE COULD AGREE THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN TYPES OF ACTIVITIES THAT REALLY OUGHT TO BE SHELTERED FOR THE GOOD OF THE ENTIRE PROJECT. THAT WOULD BE AREAS LIKE TRASH RECEPTACLES, LOADING DOCKS, THOSE TYPES OF ISSUES,. I BUT NOT NECESSARILY A WALL BETWEEN COMMERCIAL AND RESIDENTIAL, WHICH IS WHAT WE DO IN THE REST OF THE CITY. MR. GRINDSTAFF: MICHAEL'S NOT HERE. I'LL BE HAPPY TO DISCUSS THAT WITH HIM ON WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT FOR BLOCKING AND PROTECTING CERTAIN PLACES LIKE DUMPSTERS AND THINGS AS OPPOSED TO THE1 OUTRIGHT WALL. 34 . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 MR. BLAKE: IT BRINGS OVERALL VALUE TO EVERYTHING. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS THAT BETWEEN THE WORKSHOP AND THE SESSION. MR. BLAKE: I THINK THAT'S FAIR. I DON'T SEE HIM OUT THERE YET. MR. GRINDSTAFF: HE WAS OUT HERE -- I CALLED HIM ON THE WAY OUT EERE. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: MR. MAYOR, I JUST HAVE ONE MORE ITEM ON THIS AGREEMENT. IT'S ON PAGE 12. IT'S ITEM 16, CONNECTION TO TUSCAWILLA ROAD. IT MAY JUST BE THAT MY SENSE OF DIRECTION IS ALL OUT OF WHACK OR SOMETHING, BUT THIS PARAGRAPH HERE -- WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO READ IT? MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. . . 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: IT SEEMS TO ME LIKE IT'S TRYING TO CONNECT THE NORTH SIDE OF TUSCAWILLA ROAD WITH THE SOUTH SIDE OF 434, THE TWO SIDES OF -- THE CITY AG^EES TO COOPERATE WITH SCHRIMSHER TO ALLOW SCHRIMSHER TO DESIGN, PERMIT, AND CONSTRUCT A ROAD ALONG THE EXISTING RIGHT-OF-WAY BEHIND THE MOBILE SERVICE STATION CURRENTLY ON THE CORNER OF 434, WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT BE DESIGNED TO CONNECT TUSCAWILLA WITH THE FRONTAGE ROAD SOUTH OF 434-- NEVER MIND. I . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 - '- - 23 24 25 . . 35 FIGURED IT OUT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THE SAME THING'S HAPPENED TO US A BUNCH OF TIMES. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WELL, YOU KNOW, IT'S ONE OF THOSE THINGS. THANK YOU. THAT'S ALL I HAVE, MR. MAYOR, ON THAT ISSUE. MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. WE MAY HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE VERBIAGE. LET ME JUST READ TO YOU THE MINUTES ON THIS WALL ORDINANCE SITUATION. IT SAYS -- WITH THE COMMISSION, WE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT GOING THROUGH -- IF YOUR DESIRE TO AGREE WAS SET FORTH IN THESE MINUTES, THEN WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GO BACK AND CHANGE THE RULE ORDINANCE THAT IS PENDING. THEN THE IMPACT ON THE ORDINANCE, IS THAT GOING TO CHANGE THE TYPE OF WORK WE'RE DOING HERE? THEN ATTORNEY GARGANESE STATED, MR. GRINDSTAFF MADE A COMMENT. I JUST WANTED TO CLARIFY THAT HIS STATEMENT WAS CORRECT. THERE IS A POTENTIAL CONFLICT. BUT FOR PURPOSES OF YOUR DISCUSSION RIGHT NOW, YOU'RE TALKING SOLELY ABOUT THE MINUTES AND WHAT COMMISSIONER MCLEOD AND COMMISSIONER BLAKE AND MANAGER MCLEMORE AGREED TO WITH THE SCHRIMSHERS. SO IS THIS POSITION . . . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 36 CORRECT? AND THEN FROM BOTH OF YOUR STANDPOINTS THAT'S FROM THE MINUTES OF THE PREVIOUS DISCUSSION -- COMMISSIONER BLAKE SAID YES. MR. SCHRIMSHER STATED YES. MAYOR PARTYKA THEN STATED THE ISSUE IS ON THE TABLE FOR THE PARKING LOT DEPENDING ON HOW YOU CAN LOOK AT IT, THE NEW ORDINANCE, THE NEW WALL, THE NEW WALL'S OKAY. AND SO LET'S STILL SEE HOW THAT IMPACTS ON THIS. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I THINK WHAT HAPPENS, THE NEW WALL -- PROPOSED WALL ORDINANCE WAS IN CONFLICT WITH WHAT WAS HAPPENING HERE. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: RIGHT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT'S WHY WE HAD TO REVISIT THE NEW WALL ORDINANCE, WHICH, I THINK, WAS TABLED LAST TIME -- MR. GARGANESE: YES. MR. GRINDSTAFF: -- IN ORDER TO MAKE SURE THAT IT DIDN'T APPLY INTERNALLY TO THE TOWN CENTER. NOW, IF YOU LOOK AT THE HEADING ON TONIGHT'S AGENDA, YOU'LL SEE THAT THAT'S STILL IN CONFLICT WITH WHAT WE'VE TALKED ABOUT INSIDE THE TOWN CENTER. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS . . . 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 37 1 WITH MR. GRINDSTAFF? 2 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: NOT FROM ME. 3 MR. GRINDSTAFF: BECAUSE WE'VE HAD SOME 4 QUESTIONS COME UP. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WANT THEM 5 NOW OR IF YOU WANT TO WAIT UNTIL THE SESSION. 6 MR. MARTINEZ: WELL, WE'RE IN A WORKSHOP. 7 MAYOR PARTYKA: IS THIS AN ISSUE 8 MR. MARTINEZ: I HAVE A QUESTION ON THE 9 WORKSHOP THAT I HAVE TO GET IN BEFORE 6:30. 10 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. WHY DON'T WE JUST 11 WAIT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: OKAY. THEY'RE NOT HORRENDOUS, BUT THEY ARE ITEMS WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT. MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. MR. MCLEOD: YES. ON TONIGHT'S MEETING, COULD WE DISCUSS, UNDER REGULAR AGENDA ITEM A, THE! I I I SCHRIMSHER AGREEMENT BEFORE WE DISCUSS THE PUBLIC HEARINGS? MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. YES. COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. MR. MARTINEZ: I JUST HAVE A CORRECTION TO 23 THE MINUTES OF PAGE 19. 24 (WHEREUPON, OTHER MATTERS WERE DISCUSSED, AND A BRIEF 25 RECESS WAS TAKEN FROM 6:25 TO 6:35 P.M.) . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 38 MAYOR PARTYKA: SO WE ARE NOW ON REGULAR ITEM A. CITY MANAGER REQUESTS THE COMMISSION APPROVE AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN SCHRIMSHER PROPERTIES AND THE CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS TOWN CENTER CODE. OKAY. SO AT THIS POINT, WE MIGHT AS WELL BRING UP ALL THE INTERESTED PARTIES: THE SCHRIMSHERS, MR. GRINDSTAFF. MR. LOCKCUFF: I'M A LATERAL SOMEHOW. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. WE HAD MR. GARGANESE: VERY BRIEFLY, SINCE THE LAST CITY COMMISSION MEETING, WE'VE HAD EXTENSIVE MEETINGS WITH MR. GRINDSTAFF AND MR. SCHRIMSHER TO COME TO SOME SORT OF FINALITY TO THE AGREEMENT. I PERSONALLY BELIEVE WE ARE VERY CLOSE, IF NOT THERE, ON THIS AGREEMENT. WHAT MR. SCHRIMSHER I'LL LET MR. SCHRIMSHER SPEAK FOR HIMSELF AND MR. GRINDSTAFF. BUT DURING THOSE NEGOTIATIONS, WE ALSO PUT TOGETHER EXHIBIT A. AND UNLIKE THE PREVIOUS VERSION, EXHIBIT A WILL BE ONE OF THE SIGNIFICANT EXHIBITS TO THE AGREEMENT. IT INCLUDES A LOT OF OTHER EXHIBITS THAT WE WERE PROPOSING TO USE ORIGINALLY. WE TRIED TO GET AS MUCH INFORMATION ON EXHIBIT A AS POSSIBLE. YOU'LL NOTE SOME . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 . 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 . 24 25 39 DISTINCTIONS, INCLUDING THE SHADED-IN AREA CALLED EAST MARKET SQUARE. THAT WAS IDENTIFIED IN THIS EXHIBIT ACROSS SEMINOLE TRAIL STREET. IT WAS PUT IN ITS PROPER LOCATION PER THE LAST CITY COMMISSION MEETING. IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS WITH RESPECT TO THE AGREEMENT, I THINK THAT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE AT THIS POINT. WE GOT TO A LEVEL OF MINUTIA IN LOOKING AT THIS AGREEMENT AND LOOKING AT EVERY SINGLE WORD, THEN TRYING TO MAKE SURE THE PARTIES WERE IN AGREEMENT WITH THE TERMS. SO I WOULD JUST OPEN IT UP TO ANY QUESTIONS THE COMMISSION MAY HAVE REGARDING THE AGREEMENT. MAYOR PARTYKA: I DO WANT TO SAY ONE THING. IT'S THE FIRST TIME IN ALL THESE DISCUSSIONS THAT THE ACTUAL REPRESENTATIVE OF THE CITY SAYS WE MAY ACTUALLY BE THERE. SO I JUST WANT YOU ALL TO KNOW THAT WE'VE MADE A LOT OF PROGRESS ON THIS. MR. GRINDSTAFF: AND WE DON'T DISAGREE. THAT'S TWO BIG POINTS. MAYOR PARTYKA: LET'S START OFF ON THIS VERY POSITIVE NOTE. AGAIN, LET'S ALL KEEP THE HIGH GROUND. AND COMMISSIONER GENNELL HAD A QUESTION, AND THEN COMMISSIONER BLAKE. . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 40 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: ON EXHIBIT A, WHAT IS 11? MR. LOCKCUFF: IT DOESN'T AFFECT THE SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY, BUT IT'S THE RIGHT-OF-WAY TO HICKORY PARK. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: IT'S A RIGHT-OF-WAY? MR. GARGANESE: IT'S A RIGHT-OF-WAY. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THANK YOU. JUST BECAUSE IT WAS DEPICTED ON HERE, I COULDN'T MAKE OUT JUST EXACTLY WHAT IT WAS TRYING TO DO. THANK YOU. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. MR. GRINDSTAFF: DO YOU HAVE AN EXTRA COpy OF THE MOST RECENT EXHIBIT A? OURS IS THE ONE WITH THE HONEYCOMB ON IT AND STUFF. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. COMMISSIONER BLAKE. MR. BLAKE: MR. GARGANESE, YOU'VE BEEN THROUGH THIS AGREEMENT MORE THAN ONCE, I TRUST? MR. GARGANESE: YES. MR. BLAKE: ARE WE ALL LOOKING ON THE SAME COPY; 4/21,8:30 P.M.? MR. GARGANESE: YES. THAT'S THE LAST DRAFT. MR. BLAKE: LATEST AND GREATEST. MR. GARGANESE: YES. MR. BLAKE: WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO THROUGH THAT . . . 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 41 1 AGREEMENT LINE BY LINE, PAGE BY PAGE, WHATEVER IT 2 TAKES, TO POINT OUT TO US AREAS IN THIS AGREEMENT 3 THAT WE DO NOT AGREE WITH? 4 MR. GARGANESE: THAT THE CITY DOES NOT AGREE 5 WITH? 6 MR. BLAKE: YES, SIR. 7 MR. GARGANESE: BASED ON THE COMMISSION'S 8 DIRECTION, I BELIEVE WE'VE INCORPORATED EVERYTHING 9 THAT THE COMMISSION WANTED IN THE AGREEMENT. MR. BLAKE: SO, IN OTHER WORDS, THE AGREEMENT DEPICTS EVERYTHING THAT THE COMMISSION HAS AGREED TO? MR. GARGANESE: YES. MR. BLAKE: IT DOESN'T DEPICT SOMETHING THAT WE HAVE NOT AGREED TO. MR. GARGANESE: IN MY MIND, YES, THAT'S CORRECT. BUT THERE ARE AS DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL BROUGHT FORTH DURING THE WORKSHOP, THERE IS THAT ONE ISSUE REGARDING SMALL NEIGHBORHOOD PARKS. PERHAPS THE COMMISSION WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT IT DID NOT -- THAT THE ACREAGE DID NOT INCLUDE THE RIGHT-OF-WAY. I CAN SAY FROM -- PROBABLY, FOR THE LAST I ' COUPLE MONTHS, WE'VE BEEN WORKING OFF A PREVIOUS EXHIBIT THAT DID SHOW THE RIGHT-OF-WAY WITHIN THE . 10 11 12 . 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 . 25 42 1 SMALL NEIGHBORHOOD PARKS, AND THAT WAS THE ACREAGE THAT ,WAS CALCULATED BY STAFF. MR. BLAKE: SO THAT ISSUE IS ONLY NEW TO US, BUT NOT TO STAFF, NOT TO THE SCHRIMSHER ORGANIZATION, OR TO OUR CONSULTANT? 2 3 4 5 6 MR. GARGANESE: YES. PROBABLY. I DON'T WANT 7 8 9 TO CATEGORIZE IT AS NEW. FOREFRONT, YES. MR. BLAKE: AND I'M NOT DENYING ITS EXISTENCE IT IS BROUGHT TO THE EARLIER. WE'RE JUST SAYING THAT THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THAT THIS PART BECAME CLEAR TO US. MR. GARGANESE: RIGHT. AND THAT'S AN ACCURATE STATEMENT. AGAIN, WE GOT DOWN TO THE LEVEL OF MINUTIA, LOOKING AT THIS MAP. THE SCHRIMSHERS LOOKED AT THE MAP. THEY WERE FINE. THIS ISSUE DID COME TO EVERYONE'S IMMEDIATE ATTENTION. MR. BLAKE: I'M SURE THERE'S PROBABLY AN ITEMI OR TWO THAT ANY ONE OF US MIGHT LEARN ABOUT AS WE GO ON THAT'S EXISTED THE WHOLE TIME. MR. GARGANESE: CORRECT. MR. BLAKE: SO YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE IN RECOMMENDING THIS DOCUMENT TO THE COMMISSION, AS IT STANDS, AS BEING A FAIR REPRESENTATION OF WHAT WE SHOULD AGREE TO DO, AND YOUR RECOMMENDATION TO . . . 43 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 US IS TO APPROVE THIS? MR. GARGANESE: YES, IT IS. IT'S A FAIR REPRESENTATION OF THE HARD WORK THAT THIS COMMISSION WAS ENGAGED IN AT THE LAST CITY COMMISSION MEETING. SO I WOULD RECOMMEND THIS IS A VERY FAIR AND EQUITABLE AGREEMENT TO IMPLEMENT THE TOWN CENTER. MR. BLAKE: GOOD. THANK YOU. JUST A COUPLE OF BRIEF QUESTIONS. AND REALLY, IT'S JUST A MATTER OF CLARIFYING, IN MY OWN MIND, WHAT SOME OF THESE THINGS SAY. IF WE CAN TURN TO PAGE 2, ITEM E, UNDER LAKE TRAIL PARK. MY QUESTION HERE IS IN REGARDS TO III, IT SAYS LAKE TRAIL PARK BE CONTIGUOUS TO EITHER A CITY-APPROVED SCHRIMSHER DEVELOPMENT OR A RETENTION POND ON THE NORTHERN BOUNDARY. I DON'T REMEMBER THERE BEING THE POTENTIAL FOR A DEVELOPMENT TO BE BETWEEN THE PARK AND THE RETENTION POND. I THOUGHT THE DISCUSSION WAS MR. GARGANESE: THAT'S MY CATCH. THAT'S MY CATCH. AND THE REASON WHY I RECOMMENDED PUTTING IN THE SCHRIMSHER DEVELOPMENT IS IN THE EVENT A RETENTION POND DID NOT GET CONSTRUCTED NORTH OF LAKE TRAIL PARK. . . . 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 44 1 MR. BLAKE: THERE'S A RETENTION POND IN 2 EXISTENCE CURRENTLY, THOUGH. THAT'S WHAT THE 3 MR. GRINDSTAFF: NO. THAT'S NOT THE ONE, 4 MIKE. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE ONE ON 5 MR. BLAKE: NOT ON YOUR PROPERTY. 6 MR. GARGANESE: THAT'S RIGHT. I'M TALKING 7 ABOUT THIS ONE RIGHT HERE, JUST NORTH OF LAKE 8 TRAIL PARK ON THE EXHIBIT. IN THE EVENT THAT THAT 9 WAS NOT A RETENTION POND -- KEEP IN MIND, THE STORM WATER MASTER PLAN HAS NOT BEEN DEVELOPED I WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT LAKE TRAIL PARK GOT TRIGGERED, SOMEHOW, IN CONVEYANCE TO THE CITY. MR. BLAKE: I UNDERSTAND. I'M HAPPY WITH THAT. THANK YOU. BACK TO THE SMALL PARKS ISSUE AGAIN. I I I WON'T I IT'S THE! i PAGE 6, IN THE TOP PARAGRAPH, THIS IS GOING AND SPEND TOO MUCH TIME ON THIS. BUT, AGAIN, RIGHT-OF-WAY QUESTION, BUT A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT APPROACH TO IT. IF YOU GO DOWN TWO, FOUR, SIX, EIGHT LINES, THE FIRST WORD ON THE LEFT-HAND SIDE IS "AGREEMENT." THAT'S THE LAST WORD TO THE PREVIOUS SENTENCE. THAT BEGINS, ANY RELOCATED SMALL NEIGHBORHOOD SQUARE SHALL BE LOCATED ON THE SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY AND SHALL NOT OVERLAP ANOTHER PARK RIGHT-OF-WAY OR CROSS SEMINOLE TRAIL. . . . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 45 AND THE CONFUSION HERE IS IT SHALL NOT OVERLAP RIGHT-OF-WAY. YET ABOVE THERE THREE OR FOUR LINES, IT SUGGESTS THAT IT ENCOMPASSES RIGHT-OF-WAY ALONG THE PERIMETER. I'M WONDERING IF THIS IS A CONFLICT AS I READ IT TO BE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: IT WOULD BE CLEAR. I THINK WHAT THEY MEAN IS YOU CAN'T MOVE IT INTO, LIKE, TUSCAWILLA ROAD. YOU CAN'T MOVE IT INTO SPINE ROAD. YOU CAN'T MOVE IT INTO 434. I MEAN, I THINK THAT'S WHAT IS MEANT BY THAT. I NEED TO REPEAT THAT. MR. BLAKE: HOPEFULLY, IN THE SAME WORDS. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I'M SORRY. I WASN'T PAYING ATTENTION TO THE MICROPHONE. I WAS JUST TALKING TO COMMISSIONER BLAKE. I THINK THE INTENT THERE WAS THAT IT DOESN'T MOVE INTO ANOTHER RIGHT-OF-WAY, I MEAN, FOR EXAMPLE, OTHER THAN ONE OF THOSE LITTLE PERIMETER JOBBIES. AND IT COULD BE, FOR EXAMPLE, A PROBLEM IF IT WERE TO MOVE INTO 434, TUSCAWILLA ROAD, SPINE ROAD, ACROSS SEMINOLE TRAIL INTO THE ROAD. MR. SCHRIMSHER: THE EXHIBIT'S PRETTY CLEAR,_ I THINK. PARK NUMBER 1 INCLUDES RIGHT-OF-WAY ALONG ONE SIDE, BECAUSE THE OTHER TWO ROADS WERE PART OF THE BASIC GRID SYSTEM. PARK NUMBER 2 ,. ~ . . 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 46 1 INCLUDES IT ON ALL FOUR SIDES. PARK NUMBER 3 HAD 2 IT ON ONE SIDE. PARK NUMBER 4 HAD IT ON THREE 3 SIDES. PARK NUMBER 5 HAD IT ON TWO SIDES. 4 IT'S JUST THESE PARKS, IN ORDER TO FUNCTION 5 AS DESIGNED AND AS DRAWN BY VICTOR, HAVE ACCESS 6 AROUND THE SIDES, SO THAT -- AROUND ALL SIDES SO 7 THAT BUILDINGS CAN FRONT ON THE DEVELOPABLE LOTS 8 THAT ARE OPPOSITE THEM IN ALL DIRECTIONS. 9 LAKE TRAIL PARK IS DEFINED DIFFERENTLY AND DRAWN DIFFERENTLY. IT DOESN'T INCLUDE THE RIGHT-OF-WAY FOR THE TRAIL OR THE ROAD. MAGNOLIA PARK IS DRAWN AND DESIGNED DIFFERENTLY AND DOES NOT INCLUDE THE RIGHT-OF-WAY ON EITHER SIDE OF IT. SO I THINK THE DRAWING HAS BEEN CONSISTENT AND CLEAR FROM THE BEGINNING AS DRAWN BY VICTOR AND AS CALCULATED BY YOUR STAFF. MR. BLAKE: DO WE AGREE WITH THAT? MR. GARGANESE: I'M SORRY, MR. SCHRIMSHER. CAN YOU REPEAT THAT FOR A SECOND? I WAS A COUPLE ISSUES AHEAD OF YOU. MR. SCHRIMSHER: MAYBE KIP CAN AGBEE WITH ME IF HE WAS LISTENING. I DIDN'T AGREE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I WOULD AGREE WITH YOU. MR. SCHRIMSHER: I'M MIKE SCHRIMSHER, 600 . . . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 47 EAST COLONIAL, SUITE 100, ORLANDO, FLORIDA. I'LL ABBREVIATE. THE DRAWING WAS DRAWN BY VICTOR DOVER TO CREATE THE BASE MAP THAT YOUR STAFF, CITY ENGINEER, AND CONSULTING ENGINEER, TERRY ZAUDTKE, WORKED FROM -- THE DRAWINGS ARE DRAWN TO SCALE, AND ANYONE CAN TAKE A -- TO ATTEST YOURSELF TO CONFIRM THAT IT'S EASIER TO DO IT WITH A RECTANGULAR SHAPE THAN, FOR EXAMPLE, NUMBER 1, WHICH IS SOME KIND OF TRAPEZOID OR SOMETHING, AND JUST SEE WHAT THE DIMENSIONS ARE AS DRAWN, WHICH DO INCLUDE RIGHT-OF-WAY. AND YOU WILL GET THE AREA THAT WAS CALCULATED ON THE MENU. I CAN'T THINK OF THE WORD. MR. BLAKE: THERE SEEMS TO BE A CONFLICT BETWEEN -- IN SUBPARAGRAPH -- IN ONE PART, IT'S USING RIGHT-OF-WAY. MR. SCHRIMSHER: I THINK IF YOU MOVED PARK NUMBER 2, FOR EXAMPLE, FAR ENOUGH EAST THAT IT BEGAN TO GET AGAINST EDGE DRIVE, IT WOULD TURN INTO A PARK THAT LOOKED LIKE PARK NUMBER 4. YOU WOULDN'T RUN A ROAD NEXT TO A ROAD. YOU KNOW, THE POINT WOULD BECOME IRRELEVANT. BUT WHERE IT SITS OUT THERE IN THE MIDDLE LIKE IT IS, IT WAS REQUIRED. JUST LIKE PARK -. '''. . -. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 48 1 NUMBER 5, BECAUSE IT SAT AT THE INTERSECTION OF 2 TWO ROADS. IT ONLY NEEDED AN "L" SHAPE AROUND 3 IT. YOU KNOW PARK NUMBER 1 ONLY NEEDED ITS LAST 4 SIDE COVERED TO GIVE IT ACCESSIBILITY FROM ALL 5 SIDES AND SOMETHING FOR A BUILDING TO FRONT. 6 SO I MEAN -- OR ASK VICTOR, IF YOU LIKE. 7 THIS HAS BEEN THIS WAY SINCE THIS DRAWING WAS 8 CREATED BACK IN 9 MR. BLAKE: IT'S JUST IN THE WORKS WAS THE QUESTION. AND IF EVERYBODY HERE FEELS THAT IT'S NOT A CONFLICT AND IT IS CLEAR, THEN I'M HAPPY WITH IT. MR. ATTORNEY? MAYOR PARTYKA: IS THERE A BETTER WAY OF SAYING THAT? MR. GARGANESE: WE CAN TALK ABOUT IT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: NO. NO. I THINK IT'S A VALID POINT. WOULD IT OVERLAP ANOTHER LITTLE SINGLE-LANE ROAD? YES, IT COULD, JUST LIKE IT IS IN ITS CURRENT CONDITION. I THINK WE COULD CLEAN THAT UP. I MEAN, IT'S A GOOD CATCH, BUT WE WEREN'T TRYING TO EXCLUDE THOSE ROADS. WE WERE TRYING TO EXCLUDE THE BIGGER ROADS THAT IT MIGHT BUMP INTO AND NOT . -. -. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 49 1 MR. BLAKE: I'M NOT TRYING TO SUGGEST ANYBODY 2 WAS TRYING TO DO ANYTHING. I'M JUST TRYING TO -- 3 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I KNOW. WE CAN FIX THAT. 4 MR. BLAKE: THE DOCUMENT LIVES ON AFTER WE'RE 5 GONE, AND THE PEOPLE WILL BE ABLE TO INTERPRET 6 WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO. 7 MR. GRINDSTAFF: 'I THINK WE SHOULD FIX THAT. 8 MR. BLAKE: NEXT, PAGE 7. IT'S UNDER 9 PARAGRAPH A. IT'S ACTUALLY WELL INTO IT, THE FOURTH LINE FROM THE BOTTOM. CITY ALSO AGREES THAT NO WATER OR SEWER CONNECTION CHARGE WILL BE APPLIED TO THE SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY (INAUDIBLE) MY CONCERN HERE IS THAT WE DO CHARGE CONNECTION FEES TO EVERYBODY IN THE CITY. ARE WE ALLOWED TO CHARGE THE NORMAL CONNECTION CHARGES THAT WE CHARGE EVERYBODY IN THE CITY WITHIN THIS DEVELOPMENT? IN OTHER WORDS, MY RECOLLECTION OF THE DISCUSSION WAS THAT WE AGREED NOT TO CHARGE AN ADDITIONAL SURCHARGE CONNECTION CHARGE TO RECOVER THE COST FROM THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT SPECIFIC BUILD-OUT, BUT TO CHARGE -- TO TREAT EVERYBODY THE SAME IN THE CITY. I'M NOT SURE THAT THIS SAYS THAT. TO MY READING, THIS SAYS THAT EVERYBODY IN THE CITY PAYS ~. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 - -- , 23 24 25 :. -. 50 A CONNECTION CHARGE EXCEPT THE DEVELOPMENT HERE OR THE PROJECT HERE. THAT IS NOT, IN MY EYES, WHAT WE HAD INTENDED TO DO. I THINK I RECALL MR. SCHRIMSHER'S ARGUMENT WAS THAT IF THERE WERE TO BE A SURCHARGE PLACED ON THESE PROPERTIES TO RECOVER THAT COST, THEN, INDEED, THE DEVELOPMENT'S BUYING IT OR YOU'RE BUYING IT. WE'RE NOT BUYING IT. AND THEN THAT WOULD AFFECT THE VALUE OF THE LAND THAT WE RECEIVE IN RETURN. AND FROM THAT STANDPOINT, I UNDERSTAND AND AGREE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT. I'D LIKE TO -- YOU KNOW, I WON'T ASK YOU TO REPEAT THAT, BUT I THINK I DO. I THINK I UNDERSTAND THE DISTINCTION. IT'S NOT OVER AND BEYOND FOR THOSE PARTICULAR ITEMS. I THINK THE SENTENCE SAYS THAT. BUT WE CAN TALK ABOUT THAT, TOO, TO CLEAR THAT UP. MR. BLAKE: IT SAYS THE CITY ALSO AGREES THAT NO CITY WATER OR SEWER CONNECTION CHARGE SHALL BE APPLIED. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WELL, IT ALSO SAYS FOR THE PURPOSE OF REIMBURSING THE CITY FOR THE EXPENSE OF EXTENDING AND CONNECTING THOSE FACILITIES. MR. BLAKE: I UNDERSTAND THAT. 51 1 -.-. MR. GRINDSTAFF: IT MIGHT APPLY TO THAT. 2 WOULD YOU FEEL BETTER WITH, LIKE, NO FURTHER? 3 MR. BLAKE: I WOULD ACTUALLY PREFER THE 4 INSERTION OF LANGUAGE THAT SAYS THAT CONNECTION 5 CHARGES WILL BE BILLED AT THE STANDARD RATE AS ALL 6 OTHER LIKE DEVELOPMENTS IN THE CITY, OR SOMETHING 7 LIKE THAT. THAT'S PROBABLY NOT EVEN A GOOD CHOICE 8 OF WORDS. 9 BUT, IN OTHER WORDS, THEY'RE NOT TREATED ANY 10 DIFFERENTLY THAN ANYBODY ELSE ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE 11 CITY FOR SIMILAR-TYPE USAGE. 12 I'M NOT SAYING TAKING OUT THE LANGUAGE YOU . 13 HAVE. 14 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT 15 I'D LIKE TO KNOW WHAT YOU CAN DO ELSEWHERE. I 16 MEAN, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT -- YOU KNOW, WE HADN'T 17 FOCUSED ON THIS SENTENCE -- WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, COMMISSIONER, THIS WAS SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN THEREI FOR SEVERAL DRAFTS NOW. I 18 19 20 MR. BLAKE: I UNDERSTAND. 21 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I DON'T THINK WE DISAGREE. 22 WE'RE JUST TALKING ABOUT DON'T HIT THEM WITH A 23 SPECIAL ASSESSMENT-TYPE ASSESSMENT JUST BECAUSE 24 THEY COME IN HERE TO TRY TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN. -. 25 MR. BLAKE: I ABSOLUTELY AGREE AND I WANT IT 52 . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 TO SAY THAT. BUT WHAT I ALSO WANT IT TO BE CLEAR FOR SOMEBODY WHO'S NOT SITTING IN THIS ROOM AND HAD THE BENEFIT OF ALL THE CONVERSATION WE'VE HAD OVER THE LAST THREE OR FOUR YEARS, IS THAT A DEVELOPMENT COMING IN -- LET'S SAY THAT SOMEBODY BUYS A PIECE OF LAND FROM THE SCHRIMSHER ORGANIZATION. THEY COME IN AND THEY LOOK AT THIS DOCUMENT AND THEY HAVEN'T BEEN HERE FOR THE LAST THREE OR FOUR YEARS. AND THEY SAY, OH, WE DON'T HAVE TO PAY A CONNECTION CHARGE. I DO UNDERSTAND IT'S MODIFIED, BUT I WOULD LIKE THAT TO BE MORE CLEAR, THAT THEY WILL BE CHARGED THE CONNECTION CHARGE THAT EVERYBODY ELSE PAYS. NO PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT, IN OTHER WORDS. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I HEAR YOU. LET'S WORK ON THAT. I UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT. I THOUGHT IT SAID THAT AND I THINK, ANTHONY, WE CAN WORK THAT OUT. MR. BLAKE: IT MAY __ MR. GRINDSTAFF: OKAY. -. 14 -. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MAYOR PARTYKA: IF I JUST MAY ADD __ MR. GARGANESE, FROM YOUR STANDPOINT, DOES THIS SAY, OR IT COULD BE CLEARER BASED ON WHAT MR. BLAKE IS SAYING? I MEAN MR. GARGANESE: I THINK THAT WE CAN GO BACK AND TAKE A LOOK AT THIS SENTENCE. I THINK THE '. . -. 53 1 SENTENCE SAYS WHAT WE WANT IT TO SAY. I DON'T 2 BELIEVE THERE ARE ANY OTHER -- ANY OTHER TYPE OF 3 CHARGES THAT WE NEED TO MENTION IN HERE, THAT A 4 CONNECTION CHARGE IS SIMPLY, IN THIS CASE, THE 5 COST OF RECOUPING THE COST OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE 6 THAT'S BEING BUILT TO THE SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY. 7 MAYOR PARTYKA: WOULD IT MAKE IT EASIER TO 8 UNDERSTAND, BASED ON WHAT MR. BLAKE HAS SAID? I 9 MEAN, WE'RE NOT CHARGING ANYTHING, RIGHT? 10 MR~ BLAKE: EVERY OTHER PAYER OF THE 11 CONNECTION CHARGE IS PAYING FOR JUST THAT, THE 12 PROVISION OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE, AND THEY'RE 13 PROFITING. ALTHOUGH IT'S ON AN AGGREGATE BASIS 14 ACROSS THE STATE, SYSTEM-WIDE. 15 MR. LOCKCUFF: ACTUALLY NOT. WE WISH IT WAS, 16 BUT IT ISN'T. WE DON'T HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE 17 EXTENSION INCLUDED IN THE CALCULATION OF THE 18 CAPACITY CHARGES. IT'S STRICTLY A PLANNED 19 CAPA~ITY CHARGE. WE LEAVE THAT IN THERE. 20 MR. BLAKE: NOT TO BE I THINK WE ALL 21 UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M CONCERNED ABOUT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: YEAH. WE'RE NOT LOOKING FOR! PERPETUALLY FREE SEWER AND WATER, IF THAT'S WHAT I 22 23 24 YOU'RE -- 25 MR. LOCKCUFF: NO WAIVER OF THE CAPACITY -:-. t, .. . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 54 1 CHARGE. 2 MR. GRINDSTAFF: OR CONNECTION, TALKING ABOUT 3 THE INFRASTRUCTURE. 4 MR. BLAKE: WE'LL LEAVE IT TO YOU GUYS TO 5 HAMMER IT OUT. 6 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I THINK WE'RE ON THE SAME 7 PAGE. 8 MAYOR PARTYKA: SO TAKE A LOOK AT THE 9 CAPACITY. IT'S NOT CONNECTION. OKAY. 10 MR. BLAKE: PAGE 11, ITEM 7. THIS IS THE 11 WALL QUESTION. 12 IN THE WORKSHOP, WE HAD SOME DISCUSSION ON 13 THIS, AND YOU SAID, DURING THE INTERIM, THAT YOU 14 MAY HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK WITH 15 MR. SCHRIMSHER ABOUT THAT. 16 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I DID. WE LOOKED IN THE 17 CODE, THE CODE ITSELF, PAGE 9, IF YOu'VE GOT A 18 COPY OF THE CODE HANDY. TOWN CENTER DISTRICT CODE SAYS I'M NOT READING IT -- IT SAYS SOMETHING ABOUT THOSE TYPES OF THINGS CANNOT BE ALLOWED TO FACE A STREET, THE DUMPSTERS, THAT SORT OF THING. WHAT WAS IT? DUMPSTE~S AND WALLS. DO YOU HAVE YOUR CODE, MIKE? MR. BLAKE: PAGE 9. MR. GRINDSTAFF: LOOK AT PAGE 9, UP IN THE .;. '-.:, . . 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 55 1 RIGHT-HAND CORNER, SUBPARAGRAPH D. I DON'T 2 REMEMBER WHAT IT SAYS. 3 MR. SCHRIMSHER: RIGHT. 4 MR. GRINDSTAFF: THE LARGE FOOTPRINT 5 BUILDINGS THAT WOULD PRODUCE THIS THING YOU'RE 6 TALKING ABOUT: "LOADING DOCKS, SERVICE AREAS, AND 7 TRASH DISPOSAL FACILITIES SHALL NOT FACE STREETS, 8 PARKS, SQUARES, OR SIGNIFICANT PEDESTRIAN SPACES." 9 MR. BLAKE: THAT CERTAINLY POINTS OUT THE 10 FACT THAT THEY ARE AN ISSUE. I DON'T KNOW THAT 11 IF THEY FACE A RESIDENTIAL AREA, THAT THAT FIXES 12 THE PROBLEM WE HAVE. 13 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WOULD YOU READ IT 14 .AGAIN, PLEASE? MR. GRINDSTAFF: "LOADING DOCKS, SERVICE AREAS, TRASH DISPOSAL FACILITIES SHALL NOT FACE STREETS, PARKS, SQUARES, OR SIGNIFICANT PEDESTRIANI SPACES. MR. BLAKE: THAT'S IN RECOGNITION OF -- MR. GRINDSTAFF: I GUESS YOU CAN FACE A HOUSE I MEAN, IF -- YOU KNOW, IF THE GUY WANTED TO -- HEY, LET'S PUT OUR DUMPSTER OVER HERE AND FACE THAT GUY. I MEAN, IF SOMEONE SET OUT TO DO THAT. MR. SCHRIMSHER: ANYWAY, THIS IS THE WAY :. ~ ~ . . 11 56 1 VICTOR CHOSE TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE. 2 MR. GRINDSTAFF: IT BACKS IT IN THERE. 3 MR. SCHRIMSHER: IT SOUNDS LIKE THESE TYPES 4 OF UNSIGHTLY THINGS HAVE TO BE IN AN INTERIOR 5 LOCATION. SO WHAT WOULD YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW 6 WHAT YOU'D BE WALLING -- USING THE WALL TO SHIELD 7 IT FROM AT THAT POINT. 8 MR. BLAKE: WELL, THE CONCERN IS A 9 RESIDENTIAL USE THAT'S ADJACENT TO THAT TYPE OF 10 THING. 12 THERE'S A SCENARIO WHERE YOU COULD FIND ONE MR. SCHRIMSHER: BY DESIGN -- I MEAN, MAYBE 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 WHERE -- WHAT YOUR CONCERN IS WOULD ACTUALLY HAPPEN. BUT WITH THE WAY ALL THE USES, ESPECIALLY RESIDENTIAL, ARE DESIGNED TO FACE ON STREETS AND PARKS AND SQUARES AND PEDESTRIAN SPACES, I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S LEFT. MR. BLAKE: I THINK BACKYARDS IS WHAT WE'RE PROBABLY CONCERNED WITH. THAT'S WHERE YOU HAVE THAT TYPE OF A PROBLEM. AND DO WE HAVE THAT IN THE CITY ALREADY TODAY, SO WE KNOW IT EXISTS. WE KNOW IT HAPPENS. MR. SCHRIMSHER: WELL, I GUESS THE CONCERN IS IF YOU START SAYING THESE TYPE USES MUST BE FENCED OR WALLED OFF, YOU MAY BE CREATING WALLS WHERE r. , .. ~. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 57 1 THEY'RE REALLY NOT NECESSARY. BECAUSE WHAT YOU __ 2 AN UNUSUAL SCENARIO THAT WOULD BE -- IT'S HARD TO 3 VISUALIZE, BUT I SUPPOSE IT'S POSSIBLE. AND IN 4 THAT CASE -- 5 MR. BLAKE: THAT'S WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO 6 PROTECT AGAINST. 7 MR. SCHRIMSHER: RIGHT. BUT TO THEN __ 8 THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING IS TO CHANGE THE RULE TO FIT 9 THE VERY RARE EXCEPTION WOULD BE NOT THE RIGHT WAY 10 TO FIX IT, I DON'T THINK. BUT TO TRY TO -- ALSO, YOU'D ALMOST HAVE TO AMEND THE CODE, NOT JUST OUR AGREEMENT, BECAUSE IF IT'S A CONCERN ABOUT THIS HAPPENING IN THE TOWN CENTER, IT'S NOT JUST ON OUR PROPERTY THAT IT MIGHT HAPPEN. MR. BLAKE: OH, ABSOLUTELY. YES. YES. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I THINK VICTOR -- IN ANOTHER SECTION BACK THERE, THEY SAY WALLS AND GARDEN WALLS AND FENCES ARE STRONGLY ENCOURAGED TO CREATE THE LITTLE BACKYARD GARDENS AND THAT SORT OF THING. BELIEVE IT OR NOT, I THINK IF THE MARKET WOULD DICTATE WHETHER A WALL WOULD BE AN APPROPRIATE PLACE, YOU KNOW, BEHIND THAT COMMERCIAL AREA FACING -- SOMEHOW FACING SOMETHING . . -. 58 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THAT'S SUPPOSED TO BE INTERIOR TO THE COMMERCIAL, IF YOU WANT TO SELL THAT LOT FOR RESIDENTIAL PURPOSES, YOU WOULD PROBABLY DO SOMETHING TO BLOCK THAT AREA, AND LET THE MARKET DICTATE IT. OTHERWISE, I THINK, VICTOR, IN ALL OF HIS WISDOM, WOULD HAVE ADDRESSED THAT SOMEWHERE IN THE CODE. MAYOR PARTYKA: JF I MAY CLARIFY. CHARLES, FROM YOUR STANDPOINT, WORKING WITH THIS, IS THERE A POTENTIAL PROBLEM HERE THAT WE MIGHT HAVE MISSED OR .IS THERE A FURTHER EXPLANATION HERE THAT'S WARRANTED. MR. CARRINGTON: NO. I DON'T THINK SO. I THINK -- CHARLES CARRINGTON, COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT DIRECTOR -- NO, I DON'T THINK SO. I THINK THIS REFERENCE THAT MR. GRINDSTAFF MADE ON PAGE 9, ITEM D UNDER L, STATES: LOADING DOCKS, SERVICE AREAS, AND TRASH DISPOSAL FACILITIES SHALL NOT FACE STREETS, PARKS, SQUARES, OR SIGNIFICANT PEDESTRIAN AREAS. THE WHOLE IDEA IN THE DOWNTOWN AREA IS TO HAVE MIXED USES AND A VARIETY OF MIXED USES. AND ALL ALONG, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, THERE'S NEVER BEEN AN INTENT TO HAVE WALLS SEPARATING TOWNHOUSES FROM SINGLE FAMILY HOMES OR TOWNHOUSES FROM . , . . 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 59 1 COMMERCIAL. 2 BUT AGAIN, RECOGNIZING THAT THERE MAY BE A 3 NEED, AN UNIDENTIFIED NEED, SOMETIME FOR SOME KIND 4 OF A SEPARATION WALL, THAT OPPORTUNITY EXISTS AND 5 IT EXISTS IN THEIR AGREEMENT. IT ALSO EXISTS IN 6 THE WALL ORDINANCE AS PROPOSED BEFORE YOU TONIGHT. 7 BUT I THINK IT WOULD BE A MISTAKE TO REQUIRE 8 WALLS BETWEEN USES IN THE TOWN CENTER DISTRICT 9 WITH THE INTENSIVE USES LIKE YOU ARE SUGGESTING 10 THROUGHOUT THE CITY. THE ORDINANCE THAT'S PROPOSED TONIGHT -- THE OTHER ORDINANCE PROPOSED TONIGHT DEALING WITH WALLS DOES THAT. IT SEPARATES COMMERCIAL USES FROM MULTIPLE FAMILY AND COMMERCIAL USES FROM SINGLE FAMILY. IT ALSO SEPARATES MULTIFAMILY USES FROM SINGLE-FAMILY USES. AND THAT'S APPROPRIATE, AND, CERTAINLY, I SUPPORT THAT. BUT I THINK THE LANGUAGE IN THE CODE IS CORRECT, IN THE TOWN CENTER DISTRICT CODE. MR. BLAKE: SO HOW WOULD YOU CORRECT FOR A SITUATION WHERE THERE'S A COMMERCIAL USE TO ITS BACK, BACKS UP TO THE RESIDENTIAL USE, AND THE BACK HAS LOADING DOCKS, TRASH RECEPTACLES, AND THE LIKE? MR. CARRINGTON: IF THAT UNLIKELY AND -. . -. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 60 1 CERTAINLY UNDESIRABLE SITUATION SHOULD EXIST, 2 THEN, CERTAINLY, A WALL SHOULD BE AND I'M SURE 3 WOULD BE REQUIRED BY THE DRC. 4 MR. BLAKE: WHAT POWER DOES THE DRC HAVE TO 5 REQUIRE THAT LAW IF WE ADOPT EVERYTHING AS IT'S 6 CURRENTLY PUT? 7 MR. CARRINGTON: THE DRC IS THE REVIEW AND 8 APPROVAL AUTHORITY WITHIN THE TOWN CENTER. ALL 9 PRELIMINARY PLANS ARE BROUGHT BEFORE THE DRC FOR REVIEW AND COMMENT. AND THEN THEY GO BACK AND MAKE THEIR FINAL COMMENTS, COME BACK TO DRC FOR APPROVAL. MR. BLAKE: IF THE DRC REQUIRES A WALL, BUT THEN THE DEVELOPER COMES BACK WITH A PIECE OF PAPER, THAT WE AGREED TO, THAT SAYS WALLS ARE ALLOWED BUT SPECIFICALLY NOT REQUIRED, HOW CAN THE OFI I I DRC REQUIRE A WALL WHEN A DEVELOPER HAS A PIECE PAPER, DULY EXECUTED BY THIS CITY, THAT SAYS A WALL IS NOT REQUIRED? MR. CARRINGTON: WELL, YOU CAN COUNSEL WITH YOUR CITY ATTORNEY, BUT IT WOULD BE MY OPINION THAT THE DRC FUNCTIONS AS THE APPROVAL AUTHORITY IN THIS CASE, JUST AS THE CITY COMMISSION FUNCTIONS AS THE APPROVAL AUTHORITY TODAY IN ALL REVIEWS. --. ..... . -. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 61 1 MR. BLAKE: YES. BUT IF THAT APPROVAL IS 2 ALREADY GRANTED THROUGH THE AGREEMENT, THEN THAT 3 PORTION OF THE APPROVAL PROCESS IS REMOVED FROM 4 THE DRC. 5 MR. CARRINGTON: WELL, I __ 6 MR. BLAKE: IN FACT, IT SEEMS TO ME IT WOULD 7 BECOME VESTED. 8 MR. CARRINGTON: I CERTAINLY DON'T INTERPRET 9 IT THAT WAY, BUT MR. BLAKE: MR. ATTORNEY? MR. GARGANESE: FIRST OF ALL, THIS IS A POLICY DECISION FOR THE COMMISSION TO MAKE, AND WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THE AGREEMENT AND THE ORDINANCE -- PROPOSED ORDINANCE, REFLECTS THAT POLICY DECISION. IF IT'S YOUR INTENTION TO HAVE A WALL WITHIN THE TOWN CENTER FOR CERTAIN TYPES OF CIRCUMSTANCES, THEN WE NEED TO DEFINE THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES AND MAKE SURE THAT THE CODE REFLECTS THAT A WALL IS REQUIRED, LIKE UNDER THAT CIRCUMSTANCE THAT YOU JUST MENTIONED. THEREFORE, IT'S A MANDATORY REQUIREMENT. AND THAT WOULD GIVE THE DRC THE AUTHORITY TO COMPEL THE WALL BEING CONSTRUCTED TO PROVIDE THE APPROPRIATE BUFFER. IT'S SOMETHING THAT WOULD . . -. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 62 HAVE TO BE WRITTEN IN. BECAUSE, CURRENTLY, THE WAY THE PROPOSED ORDINANCE THAT'S COMING UP FOR THE SECOND READING OF THE DRAFT IS THAT A WALL IS REQUIRED ALL THE TIME UNLESS A SPECIAL EXCEPTION IS GRANTED. THAT'S ANOTHER APPROACH IS YOU MAKE IT REQUIRED, AND THEN YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LOOK AT SPECIAL EXCEPTIONS, PROBABLY VERY FREQUENTLY. YOU CAN CUT DOWN ON THE FREQUENCY OF THOSE SPECIAL EXCEPTIONS IF YOU JUST ENUMERATE THE LIMITED CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE A WALL WOULD BE APPROPRIATE, LIKE THE ONE YOU JUST MENTIONED THEN. MR. BLAKE: I THINK THAT'S THE RIGHT APPROACH, ALSO. BUT HERE, IN THIS AGREEMENT, WE HAVE LANGUAGE UNDER NUMBER 12 HERE, BUFFER WALLS SEPARATING DIFFERENT TYPES OF LAND USES WILL BE ALLOWED, BUT NOT REQUIRED. DO WE NOT NEED TO CHANGE THE LANGUAGE HERE TO REFLECT WHAT I THINK WE SHOULD DO WHEN WE GET TO THE WALL ORDINANCE? MR. GARGANESE: YES. I WOULD ADVISE THAT THEY BE CONSISTENT. MR. BLAKE: WHAT MY RECOMMENDATION WOULD BE WOULD BE TO -- MR. SCHRIMSHER AND MR. GRINDSTAFF, WOULD BE TO CHANGE THE LANGUAGE IN THE WALL . . . 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 63 1 ORDINANCE TO READ BASICALLY THIS FOR THAT AREA IN 2 THE TOWN CENTER, BUT HAVE IN THERE A SPECIFIC 3 REQUIREMENT FOR A WALL AROUND THESE CERTAIN TYPES 4 OF 5 MR. GRINDSTAFF: LIMITED CIRCUMSTANCES 6 PERTAINING TO DOCKS, SERVICE AREAS, AND TRASH 7 BINS. 8 MR. BLAKE: YES, SIR. JUST TAKE THIS 9 LANGUAGE OUT OF HERE. STRIKE SECTION 12. MR. SCHRIMSHER: YOU MEAN MAKE THE WALL ORDINANCE -- MR. BLAKE: THE WALL ORDINANCE AS CONTROLLING. MR. GRINDSTAFF: SEE, I THINK THAT'S GONE TOO! FAR, THOUGH. BECAUSE THE WALL ORDINANCE IS GOING TO REQUIRE, YOU KNOW, IN ALL THESE CIRCUMSTANCES -- AND NOW, YOU'VE UNDONE THE TOWN CENTER CONCEPT. I WOULD THINK THAT WE COULD GO DOWN THE PATH OF SOMETHING LIKE, EXCEPT FOR LIMITED CIRCUMSTANCES WHEN THOSE THREE THINGS ABUT THE RESIDENTIAL DEVELOPMENT WHERE A WALL WILL BE REQUIRED UNLESS WAIVED BY DRC, COMMA, NO OTHER BUFFERS OR WALLS OR FENCES SHALL BE REQUIRED. THEY'D BE ALLOWED, BUT NOT REQUIRED. . , , . . 24 25 64 1 YOU MIGHT WANT TO ENCOURAGE NO FENCES. 2 MR. BLAKE: I AGREE. I AGREE. AGAIN, I'M 3 NOT TALKING ABOUT BUILDING WALLS ANYPLACE. 4 MR. GRINDSTAFF: BUT THEN WE'VE GOT TO ASK 5 FOR WAIVERS. WE WANT TO ELIMINATE THE CONTROL OF 6 DRC AND THE CITY MANAGER AND THE STAFF AND THOSE 7 TYPES OF THINGS. WE WANT TO ELIMINATE THAT AS 8 MUCH AS WE CAN SO WE CAN SHOW PEOPLE THIS IS WHAT 9 YOU'RE ALLOWED TO DO HERE. 10 MR. BLAKE: I UNDERSTAND. 11 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I DID THINK WHAT CHARLES 12 SAID WAS TRUE AND WHAT YOU SAID WAS TRUE. I THINK 13 THE CODE RIGHT NOW GIVES THE DRC, I THINK, THE 14 RIGHT TO IMPOSE A WALL DURING THE REVIEW PROCESS. 15 BUT WHAT YOU SAID IS RIGHT, WHICH IS WE'VE 16 GOT AN AGREEMENT SAYING WE DON'T HAVE TO HAVE 17 ONE. SO MY ORIGINAL COMMENT, I SHOULD AMEND AND 18 SAY I GUESS THE WAY TO FIX IT IS TO FIX IT IN OUR 19 AGREEMENT. BECAUSE THIS WILL STILL BIND EVERYBODY 20 ELSE, I THINK, WHO'S NOT ENTERING INTO THIS 21 AGREEMENT. BUT THAT'S JUST MY NON-ATTORNEY 22 OPINION. 23 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WHY DON'T WE TAKE THE LANGUAGE WE HAVE THAT SAYS NONE IS REQUIRED; IT'S PERMITTED, BUT NOT REQUIRED. BUT PUT A . . . 15 16 17 18 19 20, 21 22 23 24 25 65 1 REQUIREMENT IN THERE THAT ONE SHALL BE REQUIRED 2 UNLESS WAIVED BY DRC IN THOSE LIMITED 3 CIRCUMSTANCES. THAT WAY, IT SEEMS TO ME, 4 EVERYBODY'S CONCERNS ARE ADDRESSED. 5 MR. BLAKE: THAT WOULD SATISFY ME, BUT I'M 6 ONLY ONE COMMISSIONER. 7 MAYOR PARTYKA: IS THAT APPROPRIATE TO DO 8 THAT BEFORE I POLL THE COMMISSION? I MEAN, IS 9 THAT ONE WAY OF CORRECTING THIS ISSUE, GIVING THE 10 POWER, BASICALLY, TO DRC? 11 MR. GARGANESE: ONE WAY TO CORRECT IT, YES, 12 IS TO CHANGE THE WALL ORDINANCE TO REFLECT THOSE 13 LIMITED CIRCUMSTANCES. AND HAVE THAT -- AND HAVE 14 THIS SCHRIMSHER AGREEMENT REFLECT THE PROPOSED WALL ORDINANCE, SO THOSE TWO ARE CONSISTENT. THAT'S WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE. WITH DUE RESPECT, I DON'T WANT TO GIVE -- I WOULDN'T ADVISE GIVING MR. SCHRIMSHER MORE LEEWAY THAN WHAT'S PROVIDED FOR IN THE CODE. THEY HAVE TO BE THE SAME. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. OKAY. COMMISSIONERS, WHAT'S YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT? MR. MliRTINEZ: I'M IN AGREEMENT. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. COMMISSIONER GENNELL, YES? . . -. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 66 1 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YES. 2 MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD? 3 MR. MCLEOD: WON'T YOUR WALL AGREEMENT, 4 THOUGH, BE CITY-WIDE, OR ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT A 5 WALL AGREEMENT JUST FOR THE TOWN CENTER? 6 MR. GARGANESE: THE PROPOSED WALL ORDINANCE 7 IS CITY-WIDE AND ALSO APPLICABLE WITHIN THE TOWN 8 CENTER. 9 WHAT WE WOULD DO IS HAVE 10 MR. BLAKE: CURRENTLY. 11 MR. GARGANESE: IT WOULD STILL BE APPLICABLE 12 WITHIN THE TOWN CENTER, BUT ONLY UNDER LIMITED 13 CIRCUMSTANCES BECAUSE OF THE UNIQUE CHARACTER OF 14 THIS TYPE OF ZONING DISTRICT. 15 MR. MCLEOD: DIDN'T WE DO SOMETHING WITH JUST 16 DUMPSTERS OUT AT THE GREENWAY THERE, JUST 17 DUMPSTERS AND WALL -- L WALL CONFIGURATION WHEN IT 18 COME UP BESIDE THE STREET? I THOUGHT THAT'S THE ONLY WALL REQUIREMENT THAT WAS OUT IN THAT COMPLEX. MR. GRINDSTAFF: YOU MEAN THE GREENWAY EXCHANGE? MR. MCLEOD: THE GREENWAY EXCHANGE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I THINK YOU HAVE TO HIDE IT. BUT WE DON'T EVEN GET THE CHANCE TO HIDE IT . ~ . . 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 67 1 WITH SOMETHING LIKE THAT. WE'VE GOT TO PUT IT IN 2 INTERIOR, AWAY. I MEAN, WE DON'T GET THAT 3 OPPORTUNITY. WE'VE GOT TO BE AWAY. 4 AND IF IT'S AWAY INTERIOR AND STILL FRONTS ON 5 THE SINGLE FAMILY PORTION, AS COMMISSIONER BLAKE'S 6 SUGGESTING, SOME SORT OF BLOCKAGE OR A WALL OR 7 FENCE, AND WE'RE WILLING TO LIVE WITH THAT IN 8 THOSE LIMITED CIRCUMSTANCES. OTHER THAN THAT, 9 WALLS OUGHT TO BE PERMITTED, BUT NOT REQUIRED. 10 MR. BLAKE: I AGREE. 11 MR. MCLEOD: CORRECT. THAT'S WHAT WE AGREED 12 TO. 13 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WE AGREE. 14 MAYOR PARTYKA: THAT'S AN AGREEMENT. CAN YOU CHANGE THE WORDS OR WHATEVER IS APPROPRIATE FOR THAT? OKAY. MR. BLAKE: AND WE WILL AMEND THIS AGREEMENT, SECTION 12, AND WE WILL CHANGE THE WALL ORDINANCE AS IT PERTAINS TO THE TOWN CENTER REGION TO REFLECT THIS AS HERE, BASICALLY. MR. GARGANESE: YES. MR. BLAKE: THIS AND THE CODE. MR. GARGANESE: YES. MR. BLAKE: OKAY. THAT'S ACTUALLY WE WENT THROUGH TWO AGENDA ITEMS AT ONCE. DO YOU SEE . . . 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 68 1 THAT? 2 MAYOR PARTYKA: AS I SAY, TO BE DETERMINED. 3 MR. BLAKE: LET'S SEE. I HAVE ONE OTHER 4 QUESTION. 5 BILLBOARDS. WEREN'T WE AT BOTH SIDES OF THE 6 STREET ON THE CLOSE ONE AND ONE SIDE OF THE STREET 7 WITH THE FAR ONE? 8 MR. GRINDSTAFF: NO. 9 MR. BLAKE: OKAY. I HAD TO TRY. 10 MR. GRINDSTAFF: BUT WHILE YOU'RE AT THAT, 11 COMMISSIONER, WE WOULD LIKE TO TALK ABOUT SIGNAGE, MARKETING SIGNAGE ON -- YOU KNOW, LIKE, FOR SALE, HIGHLY DESIRABLE TOWN CENTER PROPERTY. MAYOR PARTYKA: THAT'S ALREADY PERMITTED WITHIN THE CURRENT CONTEXT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: IS IT PERMITTED? MR. SCHRIMSHER: DOES IT I I FINES IF IS IT PERMITTED, OR REQUIRE A PERMIT APPLICATION, AND THERE'S YOU PUT ONE UP? MAYOR PARTYKA: YOU NEED A PERMIT FOR ANY SIZE. THAT'S RIGHT. MR. BLAKE: I KNOW THERE WAS SPECIFIC LANGUAGE IN THE NEW DEVELOPMENT AREA. I RECALL THAT SPECIFICALLY. IN THE TOWN CENTER DISTRICT, I DON'T RECALL. . ~ . . 69 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I THINK IT'S SILENT ON THE TOWN CENTER. TOWN CENTER DISTRICT CODE IS SILENT. AND I MEAN MAYOR PARTYKA: THE CITY ORDINANCE TAKES -_ WHEN IT'S SILENT. MR. SCHRIMSHER: AND IS YOUR CODE THAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO JUST A NEW DEVELOPMENT AREA OVERLAY DISTRICT OR IS IT THE CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS' CODE. MR. BLAKE: THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. I KNOW, SPECIFICALLY, IN THE NEW DEVELOPMENT CODE, PROVISION PLAN, AND I -- THAT'S NOT-- I THINK HE'S CHECKING THE CODE. MR. GARGANESE: 434 PLAN? MR. BLAKE: WELL, NO. YOU DON'T NEED TO CHECK THAT, BECAUSE THAT WOULDN'T APPLY HERE. BUT IF YOU CHECK THE REGULAR CITY CODE -- I DON'T KNOW WHERE TO TELL YOU TO CHECK. MAYOR PARTYKA: IT WOULD BE UNDER BUILDING PERMITS. MR. GARGANESE: WHAT'S THE QUESTION? MR. BLAKE: THE QUESTION IS: ARE THEY ALLOWED ANYPLACE TO PUT UP SIGNAGE, MARKETING SIGNAGE, THROUGH THE PREDEVELOPMENT AND, I IMAGINE, THE DEVELOPMENT STAGES OF THE TOWN CENTER 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 71 MAYOR PARTYKA: THEY'RE DOING THAT NOW. MR. SCHRIMSHER: I KNOW THEY ARE. AND YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT'S NOT A GOOD USE OF THEIR TIME, BECAUSE IT'S SUCH A -- MR. GRINDSTAFF: ANTHONY, DOES THE CODE HAVE A SECTION ON REAL ESTATE SIGNS? I THINK THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. MR. GARGANESE: YES, THERE'S A SECTION FOR REAL ESTATE SIGNS. MR. BLAKE: I THINK THAT'S A 6-SQUARE-FEET THING. MR. GARGANESE: ON COMMERCIAL, AGRICULTURAL, AND INDUSTRIAL DISTRICTS, THE REAL ESTATE SIGN SHALL NOT EXCEED 100 SQUARE FEET. MORE THAN ONE SIDE MAY BE ERECTED PROVIDED IT DOES NOT VIOLATE OTHER REGULATIONS OF THE CODE. THEN THERE'S RESIDENTIAL RESTRICTIONS, AS WELL, MORE LANGUAGE. MAYOR PARTYKA: WELL, I GUESS WHAT I'M SAYING IS THIS: WE'RE NOT CHANGING ANYTHING THERE. I THINK THAT ALL THE RULES ARE IN PLACE FOR WHAT I CALL REAL ESTATE MARKETING SIGNS. I DON'T THINK THAT'S PART OF THIS. MR. BLAKE: I THINK THEY'RE JUST ASKING THE QUESTION THAT WE HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT IT. IT'S . .... . . 72 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NOT IN THIS AGREEMENT. AND HE WANTS TO BE SURE HE CAN HAVE- MR. GRINDSTAFF: WELL, WHAT HAPPENS IS THE CODE PROHIBITS SIGNS EXCEPT FOR HOW THEY'RE DESCRIBED HERE, AND I THINK THAT KIND OF WENT TOO FAR. IT REALLY SHOULD SAY IT PROHIBITS SIGNS UNLESS IT MEETS THE CODE, EXCEPT FOR REAL ESTATE SIGNS. MAYOR PARTYKA: WELL, OKAY. COMMISSIONER GENNELL, YOU'VE GOT YOUR LIGHT ON. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YES. JUST TO ADHERE -- IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN, IN OUR 434 CORRIDOR DESIGN, WHICH GOES THE WHOLE LENGTH OF 434, I THINK WE LAID OUT SPECIFIC LARGE SIGN SIZES FOR DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS. I THINK WE DID, AND I THINK IT'S RIGHT THERE COVERING IT. AND WHERE THE TOWN CENTER WOULDN'T FALL __ WOULDN'T SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS IT, THE CORRIDOR PLAN DOES. MR. BLAKE: THE CORRIDOR PLAN DOESN'T APPLY TO THE TOWN CENTER. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I THINK IT DOES. MR. BLAKE: NO. I THINK IT EXCLUDED JUST AN AREA OUTSIDE. . " . . 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 73 1 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: LET ME ASK YOU THIS 2 MR. -- MAY I? MR. GRINDSTAFF, IS IT YOUR 3 UNDERSTANDING THAT ANYTHING THAT ISN'T ADDRESSED 4 IN YOUR DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT OR IN THE TOWN 5 CENTER CODE WOULD COME UNDER THE 434 CORRIDOR 6 CODE? 7 MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT, I DON'T KNOW. I WAS 8 GOING TO SAY ANYTHING THAT'S NOT ADDRESSED HERE 9 WOULD COME UNDER THE CITY CODE. THE CITY CODE. 10 NOW, IF THERE'S SOME SUBPART OF THAT BEING THE 434 OR -- I DON'T KNOW. I THINK WE'D BE UNDER THE CITY CODE. AND IF THE 434 CORRIDOR DOES THAT, I THINK YOU'D BE RIGHT. BUT IF IT DOESN'T DO THAT, THEN I THINK YOU'D BE WRONG. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I BELIEVE IT DOES. YOU MIGHT ASK CHARLES. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I JUST DON'T KNOW THE CODE LIKE THAT. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YOU DON'T KNOW THE CODE THAT WELL, BUT YOU SAT HERE AND WROTE IT. MR. CARRINGTON: I REMEMBER MR. GRINDSTAFF: I'M GLAD I WASN'T PART OF THAT. MR. CARRINGTON: I REMEMBER JUST BEFORE I CAME IN AUGUST OF '97 THAT THE CITY COMMISSION . ~ . . 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 74 1 ADOPTED A TOWN CENTER OVERLAY DISTRICT WITH 2 DESIGNATED USES AND SO FORTH IN THE TOWN CENTER. 3 THIS ORDINANCE REPEALS THAT ON THE FIRST PAGE OF 4 THE ORDINANCE. 5 SO I DON'T BELIEVE, COMMISSIONER GENNELL, 6 THAT 434 GOES THROUGH THERE. IF YOU'LL REMEMBER, 7 ON THE FIRST PAGE OF THIS, THERE'S A -- THIS 8 DOCUMENT REPEALS THE TOWN CENTER OVERLAY ZONING 9 DISTRICT REGULATION OF JUNE 9, 1997, WHICH WAS 10 ORDINANCE 661, AND SEPTEMBER 8, 1997, ORDINANCE 11 676. SO I COULD BE WRONG. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WITH COMMISSIONER I I BLAKE'S INDULGENCE, I WOULD SUGGEST, THEN, THAT IF WE RESEARCH AND FIND OUT THAT THE 434 CORRIDOR DESIGN STANDARDS DO HAVE A SITUATION THAT APPLIES VERY WELL TO YOUR SITUATION, THAT YOU JUST ADOPT THAT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: OR WE WOULD FALL INTO THAT ANYWAY. BY IT NOT BEING ADDRESSED HERE, WE WOULD FALL DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: NO. BECAUSE ACCORDING TO WHAT CHARLES IS SAYING, THIS ORDINANCE AUTOMATICALLY REPEALS THAT IN YOUR SITUATION. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WELL, IT REPEALS THE TOWN CENTER OVERLAY, NOT THE 434. . ... . . 75 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I NO. IT REPEALS THE OTHER. MR. SCHRIMSHER: THERE WERE THREE DIFFERENT ORDINANCES. YOU HAD A NEW DEVELOPMENT AREA CODE, A REDEVELOPMENT AREA CODE, AND TOWN CENTER CODE. THIS AREA WAS IN THE TOWN CENTER. MR. BLAKE: THAT'S CORRECT. AND NOT COVERED BY THE OTHER TWO AREAS. IF THERE'S A PORTION OF THIS CODE THAT'S QUESTIONED IS NOT COVERED BY THE TOWN CENTER DISTRICT CODE THAT REPEALS THOSE PREVIOUS CODES, THEN IT FALLS DIRECTLY TO THE CITY CODE, WHICH THE ATTORNEY HAS JUST READ AND SAID THAT 100 SQUARE FEET -- I'M SURE YOU HAVE A COpy OF THAT FOR THEM, SO THAT -- MR. SCHRIMSHER: UNLESS, FOR SOME REASON, IN THE AT ONE TIME, WE WERE IN THE NEW DEVELOPMENT AREA. AND THE TOWN CENTER BOUNDARIES, YOU KNOW, WERE AMENDED SEVERAL TIMES. SO, I MEAN, I DON'T REALLY KNOW, IN THE FINAL ANALYSIS, WHERE THAT NEW DEVELOPMENT AREA OF THINGS STOPPED. BUT I THINK -- MR. BLAKE: LET ME PROPOSE THIS. WOULD IT BE SUFFICIENT, AT THIS POINT IN TIME, IF THE MAYOR WERE TO TAKE A CONSENSUS OF THE COMMISSION THAT, YES, WE RECOGNIZE THIS IS A NEED AND LET'S AGREE 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . ~ . . 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 76 1 TO TAKE THIS UP AND MAKE SURE THAT YOU'RE TREATED 2 NO LESS FAVORABLY THAN WHAT THEY HAVE AVAILABLE IN 3 THE NEW DEVELOPMENT CODE OR, PERHAPS, EVEN MORE 4 FAVORABLY IF THE BASE UNDERLYING CODE OF THE CITY 5 WOULD DO SO? 6 MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT'S ONE WAY TO HANDLE 7 IT. 8 I'D MAKE ANOTHER SIMPLE SUGGESTION. MOVE 9 FORWARD WITH THAT SAME CONSENSUS APPROACH. WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO TWEAK SOME LANGUAGE, AND LET'S JUST HAVE A SECTION THAT SAYS EXACTLY WHAT IT IS. BOOM, BE DONE WITH IT, SIGNED. MR. SCHRIMSHER: EXCEPT THIS WOULDN'T APPLY TO US. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT'S ALL RIGHT. I MEAN, IT COULD ALSO APPLY TO EVERYONE OF US. HERE'S WHAT HAPPENS WITH REGARD TO SIGNS. MAYOR PARTYKA: WELL, LET'S GET A CONSENSUS ON THIS. AND THIS ALREADY MAY BE ON THE BOOKS. I'M SAYING MY THINKING IS IT'S ALREADY COVERED, BUT LET'S GET A CONSENSUS ON THIS. DO WE AGREE WITH COMMISSIONER BLAKE'S STATEMENT? MR. MARTINEZ: WHATEVER MOVES US ALONG. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. COMMISSIONER MCLEOD, . .... . . 77 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THAT WE DO WHATEVER IS NORMAL AND BENEFICIAL FOR THIS COMMUNITY IN TERMS OF MARKETING SIGNS, ET CETERA? MR. MCLEOD: YES. AND THEY'RE NOT ADDRESSING THE TOWN CENTER? THIS SURPRISES ME. THEY ARE. MAYOR PARTYKA: SO THE ANSWER MR. MCLEOD: I SAID YES. MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER GENNELL. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YES. I THINK THAT YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT THIS COMMISSION, HAVING WORKED THIS LONG AND HARD ON THIS, IS GOING TO BE IN FAVOR OF WHATEVER SIGNAGE IT TAKES TO PROMOTE IT AND GET IT GOING. I BELIEVE MR. MCLEOD: WITHIN REASON. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WELL, SURE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I THINK WE KIND OF ASSUMED THAT, TOO. THAT'S RIGHT. MAYOR PARTYKA: LET ME MR. MARTINEZ: YES. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YES. MAYOR PARTYKA: YOU GOT IT. MR. BLAKE. MR. BLAKE: MAYOR, THAT CONCLUDES ALL OF MY QUESTIONS ABOUT THE AGREEMENT. LET'S CONTINUE. . .... . . 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 78 1 MAYOR PARTYKA: VERY GOOD. 2 COMMISSIONER GENNELL. 3 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I DON'T HAVE ANY 4 QUESTIONS. I JUST AP~RECIATE ALL THE WORK AND 5 EFFORT THAT'S GONE INTO THIS. AND AS FAR AS I'M 6 CONCERNED, IT'S READY TO GO. 7 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ? 8 MR. MARTINEZ: A MOTION TO VOTE. 9 COMMISSIONER MCLEOD HAS ALREADY 10 I I ONEI I ITI i MAYOR PARTYKA: A MOTION IS IN ORDER. 11 MR. MARTINEZ: I JUST WANTED SOMEONE TO 12 CLARIFY THIS IN MY MIND. THIS SECTION 18, THE AT THE BOTTOM OF PAGE 12 OF THE AGREEMENT WHERE SAYS HERE THAT EXCEPT FOR WETLAND PARK AND MAGNOLIA PARK, ET CETERA, ET CETERA, WHICH ARE EXPRESSLY AGREED TO BY THE SCHRIMSHERS AND THE CITY PURSUANT TO THIS AGREEMENT -- THEN THERE'S PARENTHESES -- SUBJECT TO APPLICABLE RELOCATION PROVISIONS SET FORTH HEREIN, THE CITY HEREBY ACKNOWLEDGES THAT ALL DIAGRAMS AND GRAPHICS WITHIN I THE TOWN CENTER PLAN AND TOWN CENTER DISTRICT CODE! I .. DEPICTED ON THE SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY ARE FOR ILLUSTRATIVE PURPOSES ONLY. I MEAN, ISN'T THAT KIND OF VAGUE? AND DOES THAT MEAN THAT WE CAN ALTER THE CODE WHICHEVER WAY . . . 25 79 1 WE WANT AND ANYTIME WE WANT TO? 2 MAYOR PARTYKA: I BELIEVE THE CLARIFICATION 3 SAYS THAT STRICTLY THIS IS A DIAGRAM OR A DRAWING 4 THAT IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE AS THEY GET TO FINAL 5 APPROVAL AND FINAL PLANS AND FINAL POSITIONING. 6 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I THINK IT ALSO EXCEPTS OUT 7 A NUMBER OF ITEMS. 8 MR. MARTINEZ: THE TOWN CENTER CODE. 9 MR. GARGANESE: WHAT IS REFLECTED IN 10 EXHIBIT A IS AGREED UPON. EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE 11 TOWN CENTER DISTRICT CODE IS FOR ILLUSTRATIVE 12 PURPOSES ONLY. THAT LANGUAGE COMES EXACTLY OUT OF 13 YOUR TOWN CENTER DISTRICT CODE. 14 WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS THE SCHRIMSHERS ARE 15 AGREEING THAT WHAT'S REFLECTED ON THIS EXHIBIT A 16 WILL BE WITH RESPECT TO MAGNOLIA PARK, WETLAND PARK, LAKE TRAIL PARK, CROSS SEMINOLE TRAIL, CRossl 17 18 SEMINOLE TRAIL STREET, MAIN STREET IMPROVEMENT -- 19 MR. MARTINEZ: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. NEXT. 20 MR. GRINDSTAFF: AND SMALL NEIGHBORHOOD 21 SQUARES WITH (INAUDIBLE) RELOCATION. THE REST OF 22 IT IS JUST ILLUSTRATIVE. 23 MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL RIGHT. THERE ARE NO 24 OTHER LIGHTS ON. I THINK IT'S APPROPRIATE FOR A MOTION HERE AT THIS TIME. . , . . 80 1 I'M READY TO MAKE THE DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: 2 MOTION. 3 MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER-- 4 MR. GRINDSTAFF, IF THERE'S ANYTHING TO ADD. 5 I THINK THE -- I KNOW MR. GRINDSTAFF: YES. 6 WE WERE TALKING ABOUT IT. YOU'VE GOT A NUMBER OF 7 THINGS WORKING TONIGHT. YOU'VE GOT COMP PLAN 8 AMENDMENT, YOU'VE GOT THE TOWN CENTER DISTRICT 9 CODE ORDINANCE, FOURTH READING, THIS AGREEMENT, 10 AND THAT WALL THING. BUT THOSE THINGS TIE 11 TOGETHER. 12 NOW, A COUPLE OF THINGS, BECAUSE WE HAD SOME 13 QUESTIONS, TOO. YOU ALL HAD SOME QUESTIONS. 14 MAYOR PARTYKA: I'M SORRY. MR. GRINDSTAFF: BUT WE ONLY HAD, LIKE, THREEI QUESTIONS. YOU'VE ALREADY ANSWERED ONE OF THEM. 15 16 17 MAYOR PARTYKA: I THOUGHT IT WAS ONLY THESE 18 QUESTIONS. 19 MR. GRINDSTAFF: BECAUSE WITH THE REVISIONS, 20 SOME OF THE DRAWINGS ON PAGE 11 OF THE CODE AREN'T 21 ACCURATE. FOR EXAMPLE, ACROSS SEMINOLE TRAIL 22 STREET, WHICH USED TO HAVE THE TRAIL IN THE MIDDLE' 23 OF IT, WHICH WAS A 30-FOOT-WIDE TRAIL -- OR 18 24 FEET, WHATEVER IT WAS -- RIGHT THROUGH THE MIDDLE 25 OF IT, IT'S NO LONGER THERE. SOME OF THESE . ~ . . 81 1 DRAWINGS ARE WRONG. 2 AND WHAT WE WERE GOING TO SUGGEST IS THAT 3 THESE EXHIBITS TO THIS AGREEMENT, PARTICULARLY NEW 4 PAGE 11, AND THE RIPPLE EFFECT, THAT SOME OF THOSE 5 CHANGES WOULD HAVE THROUGHOUT THE CODE BE CLEANED 6 UP BETWEEN NOW AND TWO WEEKS FROM NOW. JUST CLEAN 7 THEM UP. 8 AND WITH REGARD TO THE TEXT OF THE AGREEMENT, 9 I THINK WE ARE THERE EXCEPT FOR WHAT WE'VE GOT TO 10 AMEND LIKE YOU TALKED ABOUT TONIGHT. 11 LET'S START WITH A GOOD, CLEAN, FRESH PAGE 11 12 AND THE RESULTING EXHIBITS. WE WON'T HOLD UP -- 13 WE'RE NOT TRYING TO HOLD UP, SUBJECT TO REACHING 14 THE AGREEMENT ON THE CODE AND ON THE AGREEMENT. 15 YOU CAN MOVE FORWARD WITH THE COMP PLAN. IS THAT 16 WHAT YOUR SUGGESTION WAS, ANTHONY? 17 MR. GARGANESE: MY RECOMMENDATION IS TO ADOPT 18 THE COMP PLAN AMENDMENT FOR THE TOWN CENTER 19 TONIGHT. I WOULD CONCUR. WE DID TALK ABOUT 20 CLEANING UP THE TOWN CENTER DISTRICT CODE TO 21 REFLECT WHAT YOU'RE AGREEING WITH SCHRIMSHER TO 22 DO. THAT WOULD REQUIRE VICTOR DOVER TO MAKE A FEW 23 MINOR AMENDMENTS TO PAGE 11 AND SOME OF THE OTHER 24 PAGES. THEN BRING BACK THE CLEANED-UP CODE FOR 25 APPROVAL AT YOUR NEXT MEETING. AND THEN THAT . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 82 WOULD BE TOTALLY CONSISTENT WITH WHAT YOU'RE DOING WITH MR. SCHRIMSHER. MR. GRINDSTAFF: IN THAT TIME, WE WOULD NAIL DOWN THE LANGUAGE THAT YOU'VE RAISED ON THE WALLS AND ON THAT ROAD ISSUE, AND THAT'S IT. THERE WAS ANOTHER THING THAT WAS JUST AND I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY DISAGREEMENT HERE. BUT ONE OF YOUR MAPS -- AND I DON'T KNOW -- IF SOMEBODY COULD FLIP -- HOW MANY DIFFERENT DRAWINGS DO WE HAVE, KIP, OF THE TOWN CENTER? MR. LOCKCUFF: CHARLES HAS THE BIG ONE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: LET ME JUST SHOW YOU SOMETHING THAT'S WRONG WITH THIS. AND WE'D LIKE -- BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK ON PAGE ON THE EXHIBIT WHERE WE IDENTIFIED EXHIBIT B. IT'S PAGE 3 OF THIS AGREEMENT, PARAGRAPH J. THERE'S REALLY NO DISAGREEMENT. WHY THIS HASN'T BUBBLED TO THE SURFACE, BUT WE WANT TO CLARIFY. WE TALKED ABOUT THE SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY, THAT PORTION IN THE TOWN CENTER, AND THEN THAT'S ON THE SCHEDULE B-1. THEN THERE IS SCHEDULE B-2, WHICH IS THE - PROPERTY THAT'S CLEARLY NOT IN THE TOWN CENTER. YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO SIMPLIFY THAT, AND WE CAN SHOW YOU ON A DRAWING, AND THE OVERHEAD, I GUESS, . , . . 83 1 IS THE ONLY WAY TO DO IT. THIS HAS NO BEARING 2 WITH WHAT YOU THINK IS IN THE TOWN CENTER EXCEPT 3 THAT IT GOES OVER TOO FAR ON 434 AND PICKS UP SOME 4 PROPERTY THAT'S OUTSIDE ALL OF YOUR DRAWINGS. 5 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: BUT YOU HAVE IT IN 6 YOUR AGREEMENT ALREADY. 7 MR. GRINDSTAFF: BUT NO ONE HAS SEEN THE 8 EXHIBIT. THAT EXHIBIT'S NOT READY. 9 NOW, IF YOU WANT TO ALLOW US, DURING THAT 10 TWO-WEEK PERIOD, TO NAIL DOWN THAT EXHIBIT, THAT'S 11 ANOTHER THING THAT NEEDS TO BE CLEANED UP. I'LL 12 SHOW YOU EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. 13 MAYOR PARTYKA: JUST LET ME REMIND ALL THE 14 COMMISSIONERS, ONE OF THE THINGS WE DID AGREE TO 15 IS THAT ALL EXHIBITS SHOULD BE FINALIZED AND 16 EVERYTHING SHOULD BE CONSISTENT. 17 MR. GRINDSTAFF: AND WE CAN DO THIS IN THE 18 NEXT COUPLE WEEKS TO GET THESE EXHIBITS. BUT 19 JUST, IF YOU'LL PAY ATTENTION TO THIS RIGHT HERE, 20 AND HOW THAT -- WE'D LIKE THE LINE TO GO RIGHT 21 THERE. AND IF YOU'LL FLIP BACK OVER TO THE 22 COLORED PORTION -- LET ME DO THIS THEN YOU WILL I SEE -- SHOW WHERE THAT LINE WOULD GO, MICHAEL. ITJ WOULD -- SEE, BECAUSE THE LINE PRESENTLY COMES 23 24 25 ACROSS RIGHT THERE. THAT'S WHERE WE WOULD. PROPOSE: . " . . 84 1 IT TO GO. 2 RIGHT NOW, I THINK IT'S LIKE THIS. IT PICKS 3 UP THIS RIGHT HERE. 4 MR. SCHRIMSHER: YOU CAN FAINTLY MAKE IT 5 OUT. WE OWN A LITTLE PIECE OF PROPERTY, A COVE, 6 OF ABOUT THREE AND A HALF ACRES. AND WHERE THIS 7 LINE CURRENTLY IS DRAWN CATCHES ABOUT A HALF AN 8 ACRE OF IT. 9 SO WE'RE LEFT WITH A -- IT'S A TECHNICAL 10 POINT, I SUPPOSE, BUT IT LEAVES US WITH A PIECE OF 11 PROPERTY THAT'S NOT -- IT'S GOT ITS TOE IN THE 12 TOWN CENTER IN A WAY THAT'S UNRELATED TO 13 EVERYTHING GOING ON IN THE TOWN CENTER, BECAUSE 14 ALL OF THIS AREA INTERVENES. 15 MR. MARTINEZ: IT TAKES AWAY A HALF ACRE? I I I ITI i 16 MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONERS-- 17 MR. SCHRIMSHER: IT DOESN'T TAKE IT AWAY. 18 JUST CREATES -- I THINK IT WOULD CREATE AN AWKWARD! I I I I ISN'T THERE A NATURAL BOUNDARY INI I I I I I 19 SITUATION FOR YOUR STAFF IN TRYING TO APPLY THE 20 CODE. 21 MR. BLAKE: 22 THERE? 23 MR. GRINDSTAFF: YES. 24 MR. SCHRIMSHER: THE NATURAL BOUNDARY IS 25 ABOUT THE 4-FOOT TOPO LINE, WHICH IS AN IMAGINARY . ~. . . 85 1 LINE. NO ONE REALLY KNOWS WHERE THAT IS. YOU 2 CAN'T REALLY SURVEY IT ACCURATELY BECAUSE IT'S SO 3 HEAVILY WOODED. TO DO IT, YOU'D HAVE TO CUT THE 4 TREES DOWN. SO IT'S GUESSTIMATED BY AERIAL 5 PHOTOGRAPHY, WHICH IS REALLY BOUNCING OFF OF 6 NOT THE GROUND SO-- 7 MAYOR PARTYKA: CAN WE DO THIS? 8 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I JUST WANT TO LET YOU KNOW 9 WHAT WAS HAPPENING. 10 MAYOR PARTYKA: I THINK WE UNDERSTAND WHAT 11 YOU'RE TRYING TO SAY. 12 COMMISSIONERS, FROM A PRACTICAL STANDPOINT, 13 SINCE CLEANING UP A PIECE DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, 14 MAYBE WE CAN TAKE A 15 COMMISSIONER BLAKE. 16 MR. BLAKE: YES. 17 MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. 18 MR. MARTINEZ: YES. 19 MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER GENNELL. 20 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YEAH, CLEAN IT UP. 21 MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. 22 MR. MCLEOD: YES. 23 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. CLEAN IT UP. 24 MR. MARTINEZ: FOUR TO ZERO. 25 MAYOR PARTYKA: ARE THERE ANY OTHER ISSUES? . , . . 86 ' 1 I DON'T THINK SO. MR. GRINDSTAFF: 2 MR. MCLEOD: WAS THAT EXHIBIT D AND E, ALSO? 3 MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL OTHER EXHIBITS THAT WE'RE 4 SUPPOSED TO HAVE. 5 MR. MCLEOD: BUT THOSE ARE THE QUESTIONS I 6 HAD EARLIER THIS EVENING. 7 MR. GRINDSTAFF: EXHIBITS D AND E? 8 MR. MCLEOD: YES. 9 MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT'S THE TOWN CENTER 10 DISTRICT AND THE TOWN CENTER DISTRICT CODE. 11 MR. BLAKE: YES. THOSE WOULD BE CHANGED. 12 MR. GRINDSTAFF: YES. I DIDN'T I'M SORRY. 13 KNOW WHAT YOUR QUESTION WAS. I'M SORRY. 14 MR. BLAKE: GET VICTOR DOVER PROBABLY 15 TOMORROW. 16 MR. GRINDSTAFF: IF WE GET VICTOR THERE TO 17 TWEAK THIS THING, AND THEN WHEN WE START, WE DON'T 18 HAVE ANY INCONSISTENCIES BETWEEN THE AGREEMENT OF 19 THE CODE, AND WE'RE ON THE SAME PAGE FOR AT LEAST 20 ONE NIGHT. 21 MAYOR PARTYKA: CHARLES. 22 MR. CARRINGTON: YES. I SIMPLY WOULD REMIND 23 THE COMMISSION THAT THE ADVERTISEMENT THAT 24 APPEARED IN THE PAPER REFLECTED -- IF YOU WOULD 25 PUT THAT BACK ON THERE, PAGE 2. EXACTLY. AND THE . . . 87 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 COMMISSION, IN APPROVING A ZONING CHANGE LIKE THIS, CAN DECREASE THE AMOUNT OF AREA. THE LAW WOULD NOT ALLOW YOU TO INCREASE AN AREA THAT HAS NOT -- INTO AN AREA THAT HAS NOT BEEN ADVERTISED. SO THE QUESTION THAT I'M RAISING AT THIS POINT, DO YOU WISH FOR ME TO MAKE THIS CHANGE AND TRY TO ADVERTISE IT BEFORE THE NEXT MEETING, OR SHALL YOUR MOTION TAKE CARE OF THAT ADJUSTMENT? YOU CAN SIMPLY DO IT WITH YOUR MOTION. I'M NOT SURE THAT I COULD GET THAT CHANGE BACK FROM VICTOR DOVER IN TIME TO MEET THE ADVERTISING REQUIREMENTS. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE TOTALLY AGREE ON THE DECREASE. MR. CARRINGTON: YOU PROBABLY DON'T HAVE TO ADVERTISE IT. YOU CAN MAKE IT PART OF YOUR MOTION. THAT'S FINE. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. ANYTHING ELSE THAT WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT AT THIS POINT? MR. GRINDSTAFF: NO, SIR. WE'RE GOING TO TAKE THE TIME TO CLEAN IT UP. MR. BLAKE: MR. MAYOR. MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. COMMISSIONER GENNELL, YOU HAD THE LIGHT ON. WOULD YOU DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YES. I'M PREPARED TO . . . 88 1 MAKE A MOTION HERE. 2 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. 3 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I WOULD MOVE TO 4 APPROVE THE AGREEMENT BETWEEN SCHRIMSHER 5 PROPERTIES AND THE CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS RELATIVE 6 TO ADOPTION OF THE TOWN CENTER CODE, SUBJECT TO 7 THE CLARIFICATIONS AND TECHNICAL CORRECTIONS AND 8 THE SUBMISSION OF THE FINAL WRITTEN DOCUMENT TWO 9 WEEKS FROM TONIGHT. 10 I SECOND THAT. MR. MARTINEZ: 11 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. ANY DISCUSSION? CALL 12 THE VOTE. 13 THE CLERK: DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL. 14 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: AYE. 15 THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER BLAKE. 16 MR. BLAKE: AYE. 17 THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. 18 MR. MCLEOD: AYE. 19 THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. 20 MR. MARTINEZ: AYE. 21 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. MOTION PASSES. THANK 22 YOU. CONGRATULATIONS. I COMMEND ALL THE 23 COMMISSIONERS, THE STAFF, THE SCHRIMSHER GROUP, 24 FOR THIS HARD WORK, AND WE'RE ALL PROUD OF IT. 25 MR. BLAKE: MAYOR, IF I MAY, YOU KNOW, WE ,. "- . . 89 1 OUGHT TO OFFER OUR CONDOLENCES TO THE LAW FIRM OF 2 SHUTTS & BOWEN, BECAUSE THEIR BILLING WILL GO WAY 3 DOWN. 4 MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT'S UNTIL WE START 5 INTERPRETING THIS THING. 6 MAYOR PARTYKA: THANK YOU AGAIN. I 7 APPRECIATE ALL THE PATIENCE WE'VE DONE HERE 8 AMONGST ALL PARTIES CONCERNED. 9 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I KNOW WE'VE HAD A STORMY 10 COURTSHIP, BUT NOW THAT WE HAVE THE PRENUPTIAL 11 AGREEMENT IN PLACE, YOU KNOW, THE HONEYMOON WILL 12 LAST A LONG TIME. 13 MAYOR PARTYKA: THANK YOU. 14 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE'VE STILL GOT TO AGREE TO 15 THAT LANGUAGE THAT COMMISSIONER BLAKE WANTED. 16 MR. MARTINEZ: YOU KNOW YOUR WAY TO FORT 17 KNOX. 18 MAYOR PARTYKA: LET'S MOVE ON TO -- UNDER 19 PUBLIC HEARINGS, HOW SHALL WE HANDLE THIS? A, B, 20 AND D, IN ORDER, OR DO WE DO IT IN A -- WHAT'S THE 21 BEST WAY OF EXPLAINING IT ALTOGETHER, AND THEN 22 VOTING SEPARATELY OR JUST DOING EVERYTHING ONE BY 23 ONE? 24 MR. GARGANESE: WE HAVE TO DO ONE BY ONE, 25 START OFF WITH A, WHICH IS THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS, AND . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 . 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 - "0, 23 24 . 25 90 THEN MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL RIGHT. LET ME JUST GO THROUGH THIS, THEN. (WHEREUPON, OTHER MATTERS WERE DISCUSSED.) MAYOR PARTYKA: GOING TO B, COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT, DEPARTMENT-PLANNING DIVISION REQUESTS THE CITY COMMISSION HOLD A PUBLIC HEARING FOR SECOND READING AND ADOPTION OF ORDINANCE 2000-10, ADOPT A LARGE SCALE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AMENDMENT, (LG-CPA-1-99) THAT WOULD CREATE A FUTURE LAND USE MAP. DES IGNATION 11 TOWN CENTER 11 AND ADD GOAL, OBJECTIVES, AND POLICIES TO THE TEXT OF THE LAND USE ELEMENT OF THE CITY'S COMPREHENSIVE PLAN (VOLUME 2 OF 2). MR. GARGANESE. MR. GARGANESE: ORDINANCE NUMBER 2000-10, ORDINANCE OF THE CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS, SEMINOLE COUNTY, FLORIDA, RELATING TO COMPREHENSIVE PLANNING AND THE CREATION OF THE TOWN CENTER, SETTING FORTH AND ADOPTING, A COMPREHENSIVE PLAN TEXT REFERENCES LG-CPA-1-99, WHICH SHALL AMEND THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN BY ADDING GOALS, OBJECTIVES, AND POLICIES RELATING TO THE CREATION OF THE CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS TOWN CENTER. PROVIDING FOR THE AMENDMENT OF THE FUTURE ". ~ . . 91 1 LAND USE MAP BY DESIGNATING CERTAIN REAL PROPERTY 2 LOCATED GENERALLY AT AND AROUND THE INTERSECTION 3 OF TUSCAWILLA ROAD AND STATE ROAD 434 AND LEGALLY 4 DESCRIBED AREA AT THE TOWN CENTER. 5 PROVIDING FOR THE REPEAL OF PRIOR 6 INCONSISTENT ORDINANCES AND RESOLUTIONS ,PROVIDING 7 FOR SEPARABILITY AND PROVIDING FOR INCORPORATION 8 INTO THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AND PROVIDING AN 9 EFFECTIVE DATE AND LEGAL STATUS OF THE PLAN 10 AMENDMENTS. 11 MAYOR, JUST ONE POINT. WE JUST DISCUSSED THE 12 TOWN CENTER BOUNDARY. THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE 13 AMENDED TO EXCLUDE THAT HALF ACRE OR SO OF THE 14 SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY ALONG THE EASTERN BOUNDARY. 15 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. MR. GRIMMS, WHAT DO 16 YOU HAVE TO DO TO MAKE THAT CORRECTION? ANYTHING 17 SPECIAL? 18 MR. GRIMMS: THE BOUNDARY TO INCLUDE -- 19 MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. WHERE WE JUST 20 MR. GRIMMS: ALL RIGHT. TO REDUCE. WE DON'T 21 HAVE TO READVERTISE. I WILL REDRAW THE MAP 22 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. ANYTHING ELSE? 23 MR. GRIMMS: -- PER YOUR STIPULATION. 24 MAYOR PARTYKA: ANYTHING ELSE THAT WE NEED TO 25 DO BEFORE I OPEN THIS UP FOR PUBLIC INPUT? NO. . <. . . 92 1 MR. GRIMMS: ALL POSSIBLE INFORMATION I COULD 2 GIVE TO YOU HAS BEEN GIVEN TO YOU IN YOUR PRIOR 3 PACKET. 4 MR. GARGANESE: JUST ONE POINT OF ORDER. 5 MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. 6 MR. GARGANESE: I WOULD FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE 7 IF, BY MOTION, THE CITY COMMISSION WOULD ADOPT 8 INTO THE RECORD -- I DON'T BELIEVE YOU HAVE -- THE 9 COUPLE OF DOCUMENTS -- I THINK IT WAS IN YOUR 10 PACKAGE -- THE COMMERCIAL PLANNING STUDY THAT WAS 11 PREPARED BY GIBBS PLANNING GROUP, INC., AND THE 12 TOWN CENTER MASTER PLAN THAT WAS PREPARED BY 13 DOVER, COLE AND PARTNERS. 14 MAYOR PARTYKA: THAT'S COMMERCIAL PLANNING -- 15 WHAT IS IT? 16 MR. GARGANESE: COMMERCIAL PLANNING STUDY. 17 MAYOR PARTYKA: AND THE OTHER ONE? 18 MR. GARGANESE: TOWN CENTER MASTER PLAN. THEI I 19 DOCUMENTS THAT YOU WORKED ON EXTENSIVELY BACK IN 20 '88 -- '98. SORRY. , 98. I 1- 21 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. 22 MR. CARRINGTON: I BELIEVE THAT THOSE WERE 23 APPROVED MARCH 23, 1998, ALONG WITH THE CONCEPTUAL 24 PLAN. 25 MR. GARGANESE: I WOULD JUST LIKE THE RECORD . ~ . . 93 1 TO REFLECT THAT THEY'VE BEEN INCLUDED AS PART OF 2 THIS ORDINANCE, JUSTIFYING THIS ORDINANCE. 3 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. BEFORE, I SAW THREE 4 LIGHTS GO ON. DO YOU WANT ME TO OPEN UP TH~S 5 PUBLIC MEETING BEFORE YOU SPEAK OR DO YOU WANT TO 6 SPEAK NOW? 7 COMMISSIONER GENNELL? 8 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: SPEAK NOW, YES. PAGE 9 lION THE SECOND DOCUMENT THAT MR. GARGANESE 10 OFFERED IS ONE OF THE ONES THAT'S GOING TO BE 11 SUBJECT TO CHANGE. 12 MR. GARGANESE: THOSE AREN'T THE DOCUMENTS. 13 YOU'RE REFERRING TO THE DISTRICT CODE. THAT'S 14 GOING TO CHANGE. I'M TALKING ABOUT THE TOWN 15 CENTER MASTER PLAN AND THE COMMERCIAL PLANNING 16 STUDY. 17 MAYOR PARTYKA: YOU'RE SAYING NOTHING 18 CHANGES? 19 MR. GARGANESE: NOTHING CHANGES IN THOSE. 20 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: OKAY. OKAY. 21 MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER BLAKE, YOU HAVE 22 SOMETHING NOW, OR DO YOU WANT TO WAIT? 23 MR. GARGANESE: ACTUALLY, THERE WILL BE SOME 24 CHANGES TO THE TOWN CENTER MASTER PLAN. THE 25 PURPOSE OF ADOPTING IT IS THE FINDINGS IN . ~ . . 25 94 1 CONCLUSION ABOUT THE TOWN CENTER AND THE NEED FOR 2 THE TOWN CENTER AND JUSTIFYING THE TOWN CENTER. 3 KEEP IN MIND THAT SOME OF THE MAPS WILL CHANGE, 4 BUT IT'S THE FINDINGS AND CONCLUSIONS THAT ARE 5 IMPORTANT FOR PURPOSES OF THE RECORD. 6 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. 7 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THANK YOU. 8 MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER BLAKE, SHOULD I 9 OPEN THIS UP? 10 MR. BLAKE: YES, SIR. 11 MAYOR PARTYKA: I'D LIKE TO OPEN THIS UP TO 12 PUBLIC INPUT. I HAVE NO ONE THAT HAS REQUESTED TO 13 SPEAK. YES. 14 MR. GRINDSTAFF: YES, SIR, MR. MAYOR. JUST 15 AS A MATTER OF THE RECORD, I THINK WE NEED TO -- 16 MICKEY GRINDSTAFF, LAW FIRM OF SHUTTS & BOWEN, 20 17 NORTH ORANGE AVENUE, SUITE 1000, ORLANDO, FLORIDA 18 32801, REPRESENTING THE SCHRIMSHER GROUP. 19 JUST AS A MATTER OF RECORD AND BEING 20 CONSISTENT WITH EVERY COMMENT WE'VE EVER HAD ON 21 ANY OF THESE ORDINANCES, WHETHER IT'S THE COMP 22 PLAN AMENDMENT OR THE TOWN CENTER ORDINANCE 707, 23 THE SCHRIMSHER GROUP RESPECTFULLY OPPOSES THE 24 PASSAGE OF THIS ORDINANCE OR THAT TOWN CENTER ORDINANCE UNLESS AND UNTIL SUCH TIME AS AN . ~ . . 95 1 AGREEMENT, COMPANION AGREEMENT ADDRESSING THE 2 SCHRIMSHER CONCERNS, IS ADOPTED AT THE SAME TIME. 3 AND IN KEEPING WITH THAT, AS FAR AS THE 4 RECORD, I HAVE -- AND I WOULD LIKE TO SUBMIT TO 5 EACH OF YOU GUYS -- THIS IS THE LAST SUBMITTAL 6 THAT I THINK WILL HAPPEN. I'D LIKE TO SUBMIT 7 VOLUME 5 OF THE RECORD, IN KEEPING OF THE RECORD 8 THAT WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO MAINTAIN. THIS WOULD BE 9 ALSO INTERJECTED INTO THE NEXT HEARING. 10 BUT VOLUME 5 IS A COPY OF THE RECORDED 11 TRANSCRIPT FROM THE CITY COMMISSION WORKSHOP AND 12 REGULAR MEETING, DATED MARCH 27, 2000, AND THE 13 CITY COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING, DATED APRIL 10, 14 2000, WHICH PROBABLY SHOULD BE REFERRED TO AS 15 BEING DATED APRIL 10 AND 11, 2000. I WOULD LIKE 16 TO GIVE EACH OF YOU YOUR OWN COPY OF THIS. 17 MR. MARTINEZ: MR. GRINDSTAFF. 18 MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. PUT THAT RIGHT ON THE 19 TABLE. 20 MR. MARTINEZ: COULD I ASK YOU FOR A FAVOR? 21 MR. GRINDSTAFF: YES, SIR. 22 MR. MARTINEZ: WOULD YOU MAIL THAT TO ME, 23 PLEASE? 24 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I'LL MAIL IT TO YOU. 25 MAYOR PARTYKA: IS THAT IT, MR. GRINDSTAFF? . '<. . . 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 97 1 1998. 2 IS THERE SOMETHING ELSE? 3 MAYOR PARTYKA: NO. 4 MR. GARGANESE: NO. 5 MR. BLAKE: THEN I'M DONE. 6 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. IS THERE A SECOND? 7 MR. MARTINEZ: SECOND. 8 MAYOR PARTYKA: SECOND BY COMMISSIONER 9 MARTINEZ. 10 ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION? 11 MR. BLAKE: THERE WAS SOMETHING, YES. 12 MR. MARTINEZ: I WITHDRAW MY SECOND. 13 MR. BLAKE: WELL, NO. JUST A CLARIFICATION 14 POINT. MAYOR PARTYKA: YES, YOU MAY. MR. BLAKE: THE ALTERATION OF THE MAP, THE I I REDUCTION OF THE AREA TO INCLUDE THE CORRECTION OFi ! THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN MAP AREA TO REDUCE THE SIZEI BY THE PORTION PRESENTED EARLIER IN THE-- IS THAT GOOD ENOUGH? MR. GARGANESE: I THINK WE ALL KNOW WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. APPROXIMATELY, 1. ACREAGE. MAYOR PARTYKA: HALF ACRE, I BELIEVE. MR. GARGANESE: HALF ACRE. MR. SCHRIMSHER: THE PART OF THE CONCERN TO . ~ . . 98 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 US WAS THE UPLAND PORTION OF OUR PROPERTY, WHICH WAS LESS THAN -- YES. SOME PORTION OF AN ACRE. BUT WHEN YOU CHANGE THAT ANGLE, I DON'T KNOW. MAYOR PARTYKA: DOES THE ENTIRE COMMISSION UNDERSTAND THAT? DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: IT'S A DECREASE. MR. MARTINEZ: YES. IT'S A REDUCTION. MR. GARGANESE: I THINK THAT WOULD BE SUFFICIENT. I THINK WE KNOW HOW TO AMEND THE MAP. MR. MARTINEZ: SECOND. MAYOR PARTYKA: SECONDED BY COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION? OKAY. CALL THE 16 VOTE, PLEASE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. MR. MARTINEZ: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER BLAKE. MR. BLAKE: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. MR. MCLEOD: AYE. THE CLERK: DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: AYE. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. MOTION PASSES. GOING TO D NOW, UNDER COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT DEPARTMENT-PLANNING DIVISION. REQUESTS THE CITY 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . .... . . 99 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 COMMISSION HOLD A PUBLIC HEARING FOR THE SECOND READING AND CONSIDERATION OF ORDINANCE 2000-07 TO REQUIRE A 6-FOOT WALL BUFFER BETWEEN MULTIFAMILY AND SINGLE FAMILY DEVELOPMENTS AND BETWEEN COMMERCIAL AND SINGLE FAMILY AND MULTIFAMILY DEVELOPMENTS. A WAIVER OF THE WALL REQUIREMENTS WITHIN THE TOWN CENTER DISTRICT MAY BE APPROVED AS A SPECIAL EXCEPTION. THE WAIVER PROVISION SHALL NOT APPLY TO DEVELOPMENTS LOCATED ON THE EDGE OF THE TOWN CENTER DISTRICT. MR. GARGANESE, PLEASE READ BY TOTAL ONLY. MR. BLAKE: MR. MAYOR, A POINT OF ORDER. MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. MR. BLAKE: PRIOR TO DOING THAT, AS IT APPEARS THAT WE WILL BE MAKING AN AMENDMENT TO THIS ORDINANCE, AND I THINK THAT THAT AMENDMENT WOULD PROBABLY BE MATERIAL, I THINK WE PROBABLY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO ADOPT THIS THIS EVENING. SHOULD WE LIMIT OUR DISCUSSION TO WHAT AMENDMENT WE NEED TO MAKE TO IT AND FORWARD IT TO A THIRD READING FOR ADOPTION, MR. GARGANESE? MR. GARGANESE: YOU CAN DO THAT OR YOU CAN JUST POSTPONE -- YOU CAN POSTPONE IT UNTIL THE NEXT MEETING, AND I WILL MAKE THE AMENDMENT THAT 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . ~ . . 25 100 1 WE DISCUSS DURING THE SCHRIMSHER DEVELOPMENT 2 AGREEMENT DISCUSSION. IT'S UP TO YOU. 3 OR YOU CAN DO A READING AND TALK ABOUT THE 4 ORDINANCE SOME MORE. 5 MR. BLAKE: YOU'RE THE ATTORNEY. TELL US 6 WHAT THE CLEANEST WAY IS. 7 MR. GARGANESE: I DON'T THINK THE ORDINANCE 8 IS READY FOR THE COMMISSION TO CONSIDER, BASED ON 9 OUR PREVIOUS COMMENTS. I WOULD MAKE A MOTION TO 10 POSTPONE IT UNTIL THE NEXT MEETING, SO I CAN BRING 11 BACK THOSE CHANGES. 12 MR. BLAKE: OKAY. WHY DON'T WE DISCUSS THE 13 CHANGES FIRST AND THEN MAKE THAT MOTION TO 14 POSTPONE AND MOVE FORWARD TO THE NEXT READING. 15 MAYOR PARTYKA: SO WE KNOW WHAT WE'RE DOING 16 HERE, LET'S DISCUSS THE POTENTIAL CHANGES OR THE 17 AMENDMENT TO THE MOTION -- TO THE ORDINANCE, 18 RATHER. AND THEN I WOULD IMAGINE COMMISSIONER 19 BLAKE WILL MAKE A MOTION TO POSTPONE. OKAY. 20 MR. MARTINEZ: I'D LIKE TO ASK A QUESTION. 21 MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. 22 MR. MARTINEZ: MR. GRINDSTAFF LEFT. OH, 23 MR. GRIMMS, THERE'S SOME INCLUSION HERE. I DON'T 24 KNOW IF IT RELATES TO MINUTES THAT MAY BE APPLICABLE, BUT IT'S NOT CROSSED OUT. AND IT'S A . , . . 101 1 REPORT FROM THE DEVELOPMENT -- OH, HERE HE 2 COMES -- A REPORT FROM THE DEVELOPMENT REVIEW 3 COMMITTEE, DATED OCTOBER 19, 1999. AND IT REFERS 4 TO TUSCAWILLA CENTER, LARGE SCALE COMPREHENSIVE 5 PLAN AMENDMENT LG-CPA-3-99, CHANGE IN FUTURE LAND 6 USE FROM THIS COMMITTEE FOR RECREATION TO THIS 7 LOWER DENSITY RESIDENTIAL. 8 WHAT IS THIS DOING HERE? 9 MR. GRIMMS: WHAT'S THAT? 10 MR. MARTINEZ: ITEM D. 11 MR. GRIMMS: WHAT ARE YOU REFERRING TO? 12 MR. MARTINEZ: I'M REFERRING TO AN ITEM 13 THAT'S HERE, INCLUDED IN THESE PAPERS, FROM THE 14 DEVELOPMENT AND REVIEW COMMITTEE, DATED OCTOBER 15 19, 1999. THERE'S SOME MINUTES HERE, AND IT 16 REFERS TO THE EXECUTIVE PARK, (INAUDIBLE) 17 FOUNDATION, AND TUSCAWILLA PARK. 18 I'D LIKE TO KNOW -- IN THE TOWN CENTER, I'D 19 LIKE TO KNOW IF THE MENTION OF THIS TUSCAWILLA 20 (INAUDIBLE) HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS 21 COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AMENDMENT, OR IS THAT EXCLUDED 22 FROM HERE? BECAUSE IF IT'S INCLUDED HERE, WE'RE 23 GOING TO HAVE A PROBLEM. 24 MR. GRIMMS: WELL, WHAT PAGE ARE YOU LOOKING 25 AT HERE? . " . . 102 1 MR. MARTINEZ: THERE'S NO NUMBER HERE. IT'S 2 ABOUT -- GEEZ. 3 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: EDDIE, WHAT AGENDA 4 ITEM ARE YOU ON? 5 MAYOR PARTYKA: APRIL 10TH. WE'RE ON D. 6 MR. MARTINEZ: NO. IT'S THE SAME ONE I GOT 7 BACK TODAY. THEY PUT SOME CHANGES IN THERE AND 8 THEY GAVE IT BACK TO US. THIS IS WHAT WE AGREED 9 UPON. THEY GAVE THIS BACK. THEY INSERTED SOME 10 CHANGES AND THEY GAVE IT BACK TO US. IT'S 11 SUPPOSED TO BE APRIL 24TH. IT'S THE SAME PACKET. 12 MR. BLAKE: WE'RE NOT ON THAT NOW. 13 MAYOR PARTYKA: RIGHT. BUT WE JUST HANDLED 14 THAT UNDER B. OKAY. NOW WE'RE ON THE WALL 15 ORDINANCE RIGHT NOW. 16 MR. MARTINEZ: I THOUGHT YOU SAID YOU WERE 17 ON 18 MR. BLAKE: RIGHT THERE. 19 MAYOR PARTYKA: WE'RE ON -- I KNOW IT'S 20 CONFUSING. BELIEVE ME, I'M CONFUSED ON THIS ONE. 21 BUT, YES, WE'RE ON D, ON THE WALL ORDINANCE. 22 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: EDDIE, THE LETTER 23 CHANGED ON THE AGENDA FROM ONE MEETING TO THE 24 NEXT. 25 MAYOR PARTYKA: THAT'S THE ONE. THEY CHANGED1 . ~ . . 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 103 1 IT AROUND. THAT'S WHAT THE PROBLEM IS. 2 MR. MARTINEZ: SO YOU HANDLED THIS ALREADY? 3 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YES. 4 MR. MCLEOD: YEAH. YOU VOTED YES ON THAT. 5 MR. MARTINEZ: THAT'S OKAY. IT CAN BE 6 BROUGHT BACK. I'LL BRING IT BACK. 7 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. COMMISSIONER BLAKE. 8 I'LL TELL YOU WHAT. MR. GARGANESE, ARE YOU 9 CLEAR ON THE CHANGES? MAYBE YOU WANT TO SHARE 10 WITH THE COMMISSION ON THE CHANGES THAT WE 11 DISCUSSED EARLIER IN TERMS OF WHAT -- SO WE'RE ALL 12 IN AGREEMENT. 13 MR. GARGANESE: WHAT I HAVE IS, WITHIN THE 14 TOWN CENTER, A WALL WILL BE REQUIRED BETWEEN COMMERCIAL AND RESIDENTIAL OR MULTI -- ACTUALLY, JUST FOR COMMERCIAL AND RESIDENTIAL, UNDER LIMITED CIRCUMSTANCES. THOSE LIMITED CIRCUMSTANCES, AS I UNDERSTAND THEM, ARE REFLECTED IN THE TOWN CENTER CODE FOR SUCH THINGS AS LOADING DOCKS, SERVICE AREAS, TRASH DISPOSAL, ET CETERA. MR. BLAKE: THOSE SPECIFIC USES. MR. GARGANESE: YES. THOSE SPECIFIC COMMERCIAL USES ADJACENT TO A RESIDENTIAL AREA. MR. BLAKE: WELL, WHAT I THINK WE NEED TO DO IS -- ANJ THIS IS A JOB THAT YOU CAN TAKE CARE OF . ~ . . 20 21 22 23 24 25 104 1 FOR US -- GO THROUGH THE CODE FOR THE ORDINANCE AS 2 PROVIDED TO US HERE, STRIKING ALL REFERENCES TO 3 TOWN CENTER AND INSERTING A NEW PARAGRAPH THAT 4 SAYS, BASICALLY, EXACTLY WHAT YOU JUST SAID_FOR 5 THE TOWN CENTER AND INCLUDE THE LANGUAGE IN THERE 6 FOR THE DRC FOR THOSE ITEMS. 7 MR. GARGANESE: OKAY. 8 MR. BLAKE: IS THAT CLEAR? 9 MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. FOR THE DRC TO APPROVE. 10 MR. BLAKE: THE DRC HAS THE ABILITY TO 11 DETERMINE, YES, IT'S REQUIRED HERE; NO, IT'S NOT 12 REQUIRED THERE, FOR THOSE TYPES OF EXTERNAL 13 THINGS. 14 AND MR. GRINDSTAFF, I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE 15 AGREED? 16 MR. GRINDSTAFF: YES. 17 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. COMMISSIONERS, ARE YOU 18 IN AGREEMENT WITH ALL THAT? 19 OKAY. SO WE'RE LOOKING NOW FOR A MOTION TO MR. BLAKE: MR. MAYOR, I'D LIKE TO MAKE A MOTION TO POSTPONE THE ADOPTION OF ORDINANCE 2000-07, TO PROVIDE FOR THE TECHNICAL CORRECTIONS REFERENCING WALLS, INTERNALLY, ON THE TOWN CENTER TO PROTECT AGAINST EXTERNALITIES ASSOCIATED WITH . ""- . . 105 1 LOADING DOCKS, TRASH RECEPTACLES, AND SERVICE 2 AREAS -- EXCUSE ME -- AGAINST ADJOINING USES. 3 AND TO PRESERVE ADVERTISING, FORWARD THIS TO 4 AN ADOPTION HEARING AT THE NEXT MEETING, WHICH IS 5 MA Y 8, 2 0 0 0 . 6 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I THINK ADJOINING 7 RESIDENTIAL USES, DIDN'T WE? OR ALL ADJOINING 8 USES? 9 MR. GARGANESE: ADJOINING RESIDENTIAL. 10 MR. BLAKE: RESIDENTIAL. 11 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. IF EVERYONE 12 UNDERSTANDS THAT MOTION, THEN I NEED A SECOND. 13 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: SECOND. 14 MAYOR PARTYKA: SECOND BY COMMISSIONER 15 GENNELL. 16 CALL THE VOTE, PLEASE. 17 THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. 18 MR. MCLEOD: AYE. 19 THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. 20 MR. MARTINEZ: AYE. 21 THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER BLAKE. 22 MR. BLAKE: AYE. 23 THE CLERK: DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL. 24 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: AYE. 25 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. MOTION PASSES. THAT .... ,. " " '. . 25 106 1 IS POSTPONED. 2 OKAY. NOW, WE GO ON TO COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT 3 DEPARTMENT REQUESTS THE COMMISSION TO CONSIDER A 4 FOURTH READING, IS THAT CORRECT, OF ORDINANCE 707, 5 ADOPTED AND PROPOSED TOWN CENTER DISTRICT BOUNDARY 6 AND TOWN CENTER DISTRICT CODE. 7 COMMISSIONER BLAKE. 8 MR. BLAKE: MR. MAYOR, I'D LIKE TO MAKE A 9 MOTION TO POSTPONE THE ADOPTION HEARING OF 10 ORDINANCE 707, THE TOWN CENTER CODE -- EXCUSE 11 ME -- TO MAY 8, 2000, AT 6:30 TO PROVIDE FOR 12 TECHNICAL CORRECTIONS OF THE MAPS AND OTHER 13 ASSOCIATED ITEMS DISCUSSED THIS EVENING AND, ALSO, 14 TO PRESERVE ADVERTISING. 15 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. IS THERE A SECOND TO 16 THAT? 17 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: SECOND. 18 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. CALL THE VOTE, PLEASE. 19 THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER BLAKE. MR. BLAKE: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. MR. MCLEOD: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. MR. MARTINEZ: AYE. THE CLERK: DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL. 20 21 22 23 24 . .... 107 1 2 3 YOU. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: AYE. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. MOTION PASSES. THANK 4 (WHEREUPON, THE MEETING WAS CONCLUDED AT 9:45 P.M.) . .\ 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 6 7 8 9 ,e '" 108 1 2 3 4 CERTIFICATE OF OATH 5 6 7 STATE OF FLORIDA) 8 COUNTY OF ORANGE) 9 10 I, SANDRA A. MOSER, REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTER, CERTIFY THAT I WAS AUTHORIZED TO AND DID 11 STENOGRAPHICALLY REPORT THE FOREGOING PROCEEDING AND THAT THE TRANSCRIPT IS A TRUE RECORD. 12 . I FURTHER CERTIFY THAT I AM NOT A RELATIVE, 13 EMPLOYEE, ATTORNEY OR COUNSEL OF ANY OF THE PARTIES, NOR AM I FINANCIALLY INTERESTED IN THE ACTION. 14 15 DATED THIS 4TH DAY OF MAY, 2000. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 . 25 \'-....5~j:.;,,,..L\ \.<~..."\ C:,\. \-"',-" \::~:J:'j._~ f'_ ------------------------------ SANDRA A. MOSER, R.P.R. NOTARY PUBLIC- STATE OF FLORIDA ...."".. SANDRA A. MOSER 1~'.J;l:~~.rl:~:; MY COMMISSION # CC 73321D ~: ':.: EXPIRES: Apn112. 2002 . "!J:...w public Underwn1ers "'!.r. '0; 'i:>.~.., Bonded Thru Nolary ".,.",1 F TRACT SIZE N @ 0.15 AC * @ 0.85 AC 0 @ 2.26 AC 0 @ 0.82 AC @ @ 0.30 AC @ @ 0.70 AC -..::: 6 I 4t1O EXHIBIT "A" . . .. EXISTING TRAIL ALIGNMENT - - UNP A VED TRAIL ....... PAVED TRAIL SPINE ROAD (COLLECTOR) - . - EDGE DRIVE . . . '. CROSS SEMINOLE TRAIL STREL ... - MAIN STREET ~ .~ ImTM Registered Professional Reporte, COpy 1 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS, FLORIDA CITY COMMISSION-REGULAR MEETING TRANSCRIPT OF REGULAR MEETING HELD ON MAY 8, 2000, BEGINNING AT 7:30 P.M. AT CITY COMMISSION CHAMBERS, 1126 EAST STATE ROAD 434, WINTER SPRINGS, FLORIDA, AND REPORTED BY SANDRA A. MOSER, REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTER AND NOTARY PUBLIC, STATE OF FLORIDA AT LARGE. Realtime Registered Professional Reporters Certified Video Technicians 1188 Fox Forrest Circle · Apopka, Florida 32712 · (407) 884-4662 · FAX (407) 884-4664 Sandra A. Dawkins, President .I~I o.rtm!lO- --===-.. Professional Reporttng Since 7977 . . . 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 PRO C E E DIN G S MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. NEXT ONE IS UNDER REGULAR AGENDA. WE'RE MOVING UP TO IlAIl NOW. THAT'S UNDER CITY MANAGER. UNDER CITY MANAGER, IT REQUESTS THE COMMISSION APPROVE AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE SCHRIMSHER PROPERTIES AND THE CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS RELATIVE TO THE ADOPTION OF THE TOWN CENTER CODE. MR. BLAKE: MR. MAYOR. MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. I THINK IT WAS COMMISSIONER MILLER FIRST. MR. MILLER: WELL, I'D JUST LIKE TO MAKE A POINT OF ORDER; THAT IT'S NOW 7:30, THAT WE WILL STOP DISCUSSION OF THIS ITEM AT 8:30. BECAUSE WE HAVE THE REST OF THE AGENDA TO MOVE ON TO, AND I DON'T WANT TO REPEAT WHAT WE DID HERE ABOUT TWO WEEKS AGO OR A MONTH AGO. MR. B~AKE: THAT WOULD REQUIRE A MOTION, WOULDN'T IT? AN AGREEMENT BY THE. BOARD. MAYOR PARTYKA: OR A CONSENSUS. IS EVERYONE IN AGREEMENT? MR. MARTINEZ: I THINK IF WE ARE VERY CLOSE TO 8:30 AND WE NEED A FEW MORE MINUTES, WE CAN EXTEND IT. MAYOR PARTYKA: BUT COMMISSIONER MILLER 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . . 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 BRINGS UP A GOOD POINT ABOUT SETTING A TIME LIMIT, 2 SO I THINK WE'VE ALL AGREED TO THAT. 3 MR. BLAKE: I DIDN'T AGREE WITH IT. 4 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WELL, LET'S HAVE A 5 MOTION, THEN. 6 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. COMMISSIONER MILLER, 7 MAKE A MOTION. 8 MR. MILLER: I MAKE A MOTION THAT WE ALLOW 9 ONE HOUR FOR ITEM A ON THE REGULAR AGENDA AND THAT 10 ANY SUBSEQUENT DISCUSSION BE MOVED TO SOME OTHER 11 VENUE OR TIME OR AT THE END OF TONIGHT'S MEETING, 12 IF THAT'S AGREEABLE WITH THE COMMISSION. 13 MAYOR PARTYKA: IS THERE A SECOND? 14 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I'LL SECOND. 15 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. ANY DISCUSSION ON IT? 16 CALL THE VOTE. 17 MR. BLAKE: MY LIGHT'S ON FOR ANOTHER REASON, 18 BUT I ALSO HAPPEN TO HAVE MY LIGHT ON FOR 19 DISCUSSION ON THIS. MAYOR PARTYKA: OH, YOU WANT DISCUSSION ON THIS? GO AHEAD. MR. BLAKE: I DON'T QUITE SEE THE LOGIC IN A PROJECT THAT WE'VE BEEN WORKING ON FOR FOUR YEARS, TO PUT A TIME LIMIT OF ONE HOUR. HOPEFULLY, IT WILL ONLY TAKE 20 MINUTES. BUT TO SET AN . . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 ARTIFICIAL TIME LIMIT TO TAKE CARE OF WHAT IS, WITHOUT QUESTION, THE LARGEST PROJECT THE CITY HAS EVER CONTEMPLATED DOING, TO EITHER COME UP WITH AN AGREEMENT -- WITH AN AGREEMENT IN ONE HOUR OR LESS IS JUST POOR PLANNING. I THINK IT PUTS ARTIFICIAL BARRIERS ON WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH HERE. I JUST THINK IT DOESN'T MAKE GOOD SENSE. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. YOU HAVE THE FLOOR NOW. MR. MILLER: MR. MAYOR, THIS ITEM WAS ORIGINALLY FURTHER BACK IN OUR AGENDA, AND THERE ARE A LOT OF OTHER ITEMS THAT NEED TO BE DISCUSSED HERE TONIGHT. IT WAS RECOMMENDED, I BELIEVE, BY COMMISSIONER BLAKE THAT WE MOVE IT FORWARD. AND THE REASON I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A TIME LIMIT PUT ON THIS IS NOT BECAUSE IT MAY BE AN IMPORTANT ITEM, BUT BECAUSE THE LAST TIME WE DID THIS, WE ALLOCATED ABOUT THREE OR FOUR HOURS TO THIS AND THE REST OF THE AGENDA JUST LANGUISHED UNTIL 1 OR 2 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING. THIS COMMISSION WAS SEVERELY CRITICIZED BY SOME PEOPLE THAT WE WERE VIOLATING THE SUNSHINE LAWS, BECAUSE THEY STAYED HERE UNTIL ALMOST 2:30, 3:00 IN THE MORNING TRYING TO FINISH THIS ITEM WHILE EVERYTHING ELSE JUST WAITED. AND WHEN WE FINALLY 18 . . 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 BROKE UP, THERE WAS STILL ITEMS THAT HADN'T BEEN DISCUSSED. WE HAVE AN AGENDA PACKAGE BEFORE US TONIGHT. I HAVE NO PROBLEM SPENDING AS MUCH TIME AS WE NEED TO SPEND ON THIS ITEM WHEN IT APPEARS IN ITS NATURAL PLACE IN THE AGENDA. MOVING IT FORWARD, I'D LIKE TO SEE ONE HOUR. AT THAT POINT, WE CAN PUSH IT TO THE BACK OF THE AGENDA, FINISH THE REST OF OUR AGENDA TONIGHT, AND THEN DISCUSS THIS ISSUE, IF EVERYONE STILL WANTS TO, IF THE HOUR IS LATE. MR. BLAKE: MR. MAYOR, POINT OF ORDER. MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. MR. BLAKE: POINT OF ORDER. THIS ITEM HAS NOT BEEN MOVED ON THE AGENDA. IT'S COMING EXACTLY WHERE IT IS ON THE AGENDA. PUBLIC HEARING ITEM A, WHICH IS 15 MR. MILLER: I STAND CORRECTED, THEN. MR. BLAKE: -- THE NEXT ITEM ON THE AGENDA IS THE PUBLIC HEARING, WHICH IS DEPENDENT UPON THIS AGREEMENT. SO THE AGENDA HAS NOT BEEN REMANUFACTURED TO HEAR THIS EARLIER THAN IT OTHERWISE WOULD HAVE BEEN. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. TECHNICALLY-- TECHNICALLY, COMMISSIONER MILLER IS CORRECT. IT . . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 WAS MOVED FROM THE REGULAR A TO AHEAD OF PUBLIC HEARING AT THIS COMMISSION. I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, AND IT'S THE RIGHT THING. BUT ALL WE WANT TO DO -- AND WHAT THE COMMISSIONER'S MOTION IS -~ JUST FOR CLARIFICATION, IS ONE HOUR NOW. AND IF THERE'S ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION, JUST TO DO IT AT THE END OF THE EVENING SO WE CAN GET THE OTHER PEOPLE AHEAD. MR. MARTINEZ: CALL THE QUESTION, PLEASE. MR. BLAKE: THEN I WOULD SUGGEST MOVING THE PUBLIC HEARING ITEM TO THE END OF THE MEETING. THIS COMMISSION AGREED SOME TIME AGO TO HOLD THE PUBLIC HEARING ITEMS UP FRONT. MR. MARTINEZ: MAYOR, CALL THE QUESTION, PLEASE. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. LET'S TAKE A VOTE ON 18 CALLING THE QUESTION. CALL THE VOTE ON CALLING THE QUESTION. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. MR. MCLEOD: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MILLER. MR. MILLER: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. MR. MARTINEZ: AYE. . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 . 25 . 7 THE CLERK: DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: NO. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER BLAKE. MR. BLAKE: AYE. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. TAKE THE VOTE ON THE MOTION. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER BLAKE. MR. BLAKE: I'M SORRY, MAYOR. MAY I RECONSIDER MY VOTE? WE'RE VOTING ON CALLING THE QUESTION, RIGHT? MAYOR PARTYKA: ON CALLING THE QUESTION. MR. BLAKE: I BELIEVE COMMISSIONER GENNELL DID NOT GET AN OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK; WAS THAT CORRECT? MAYOR PARTYKA: THAT'S NOT NECESSARY. MR. MARTINEZ: CALL THE QUESTION. MR. BLAKE: SIR, I JUST ASKED A QUESTION. AND HER LIGHT WAS ON, RIGHT? MAYOR PARTYKA: RIGHT. MR. BLAKE: THE COMMISSION ALSO AGREED SOME TIME AGO THAT WE WOULD NOT HAVE A MOTION TO CONSIDER UNTIL EVERY COMMISSIONER HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK. AND HER LIGHT WAS ON. MR. MARTINEZ: MR. MAYOR, POINT OF ORDER. THIS IS WHY WE WASTE SO MUCH TIME. THERE'S A . . . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8 1 MOTION. CALL THE QUESTION. LET'S MOVE IT ON. 2 MAYOR PARTYKA: AGREED. AGREED. I BELIEVE 3 THE ISSUE IS, AGAIN, RELATIVELY STRAIGHTFORWARD. I DON'T THINK IT'S VERY COMPLICATED. 4 5 MR. BLAKE: IT'S A RULE'S VIOLATION, SIR. 6 MAYOR PARTYKA: THAT'S CORRECT. COMMISSIONER 7 GENNELL, WOULD YOU WISH TO SPEAK ON THIS? 8 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YES, I DID. MY COMMENT WAS THAT WE HAVE A LOT OF VERY IMPORTANT 9 10 OTHER CITY ISSUES TO DEAL WITH. I THINK THAT WE 11 CAN DEAL WITH THIS IN LESS THAN AN HOUR. BUT IF 12 WE CAN'T, I SAY THAT WE TAKE THE BULK OF THIS AND EVERYTHING ELSE THAT'S CONNECTED TO IT AND SET IT 13 14 ASIDE AND TAKE CARE OF THE REST OF THE PEOPLE AND 15 THE IMPORTANT ISSUES THAT ARE HERE IN A TIMELY 16 MANNER, AND THEN GO BACK AND RESOLVE WHATEVER'S 17 LEFT OVER. THAT'S WHAT I WANTED TO SAY. 18 MR. MARTINEZ: THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE MOTION IS. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. ANDREA, START ALL OVER AGAIN, JUST IN CASE THERE MAY BE A CHANGE. THE VOTE, PLEASE. CALL DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WE'RE VOTING ON -- MAYOR PARTYKA: CALL -- THE VOTE IS CALL=NG THE QUESTION. . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 9 MR. MARTINEZ: THE QUESTION. MR. MCLEMORE: THAT'S BEEN DONE. MAYOR PARTYKA: NO. BECAUSE AS COMMISSIONER GENNELL POINTED OUT MR. BLAKE: I RECONSIDERED MY VOTE. MR. MCLEMORE: IT'S STILL THREE TO TWO. MAYOR PARTYKA: I UNDERSTAND. BUT, IN EFFECT, WE DID IT OUT OF SEQUENCE. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: SO WE'RE CALLING THE QUESTION? MAYOR PARTYKA: CALLING THE QUESTION. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. MR. MCLEOD: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MILLER. MR. MILLER: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. MR. MARTINEZ: AYE. THE CLERK: DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER BLAKE. MR. BLAKE: AYE. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. ONE-HOUR TIME LIMIT, THEN IT GETS MOVED BACK. MR. BLAKE: SIR, NO. NOW, WE'VE GOT TO VOTE ON THE MOTION. ' . . . 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 1 MAYOR PARTYKA: I'M SORRY. CALL THE 2 MOTION -- VOTE ON THE MOTION. 3 THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER BLAKE. 4 MR. BLAKE: NO. 5 THE CLERK: DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL. 6 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: AYE. 7 THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. 8 MR. MCLEOD: NO. 9 THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MILLER. 10 MR. MILLER: AYE. 11 THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. 12 MR. MARTINEZ: AYE. 13 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. ONE HOUR NOW. THEN IF 14 THERE'S ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION ON THIS, WE'LL JUST1 I I I COMMISSIONER MILLER'S, AND YOU WENT TO HIM FIRST. I 15 MOVE IT BACK. 16 COMMISSIONER MILLER. 17 MR. BLAKE: MY LIGHT WAS ON AFTER 18 19 SO CAN WE HAVE THE BUSINESS NOW? I HAVE SOMETHING ELSE. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. COMMISSIONER BLAKE. MR. BLAKE: AS WE HAVE NOT YET RECEIVED THE DOCUMENT THAT WE'RE SUPPOSED TO CONSIDER, I WAS GOING TO ASK THAT WE RECEIVE THE DOCUMENT NOW AND I THEN HAVE A SHORT RECESS SO THAT WE CAN REVIEW THE . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 11 DOCUMENT BEFORE WE TRY TO DISCUSS SOMETHING WE HAVEN'T YET SEEN. MAYOR PARTYKA: LET ME CLARIFY. "THE DOCUMENT" BEING THE SCHRIMSHER AGREEMENT? MR. MCLEMORE: YES, SIR. MR. MARTINEZ: IT'S RIGHT HERE. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: IT'S IN THE PACKET. MR. BLAKE: I DON'T HAVE IT. MR. MARTINEZ: WE HAVE IT. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. OKAY. FOR WHATEVER REASON, COMMISSIONER BLAKE DOES NOT HAVE IT. MR. BLAKE: HERE'S MY PACKET AND HERE'S ALL MY STUFF. I HAVE NEVER RECEIVED IT. MR. MCLEMORE: DID YOU CHECK YOUR BOX? MR. BLAKE: I CHECKED MY BOX. MR. GRINDSTAFF: MAY I MAKE A SUGGESTION, MR. MAYOR? MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. WE POSTED THAT IN YOUR BOX MR. MCLEMORE: FRIDAY. MR. MCLEOD: THIS IS A DRAFT, RIGHT? IT'S NOT THE FINAL AGREEMENT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: CORRECT. THAT'S CORRECT, COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT, BUT I ASSUME IT'S THE DRAFT STAMPED . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 12 5/3, MAYBE. MR. MCLEMORE: FRIDAY. MR. GRINDSTAFF: MAYOR PARTYKA: IT DIDN'T GO IN YOUR BOX UNTIL 5/3. OKAY. ONE AT A TIME. MR. BLAKE: I HAVEN'T HAD ONE SINCE THEN. I WENT THERE. IT WAS EMPTY. THERE'S STUFF THAT'S HERE. IT'S NOT HERE. MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL RIGHT. OKAY. COMMISSIONER BLAKE HAS ASKED TO TAKE A FEW MINUTES TO READ IT. THE FOUR OTHER COMMISSIONERS HAVE IT. AND I WOULD SUGGEST THAT WE GO ON, AND IF YOU HAVE ANY OTHER SUGGESTIONS, THAT YOU ASK THAT AT THIS POINT IN TIME. OR CITY MANAGER, HOW DO YOU WANT TO HANDLE THIS? MR. MCLEMORE: WELL, WE KNOW AT YOUR LAST MEETING, YOU SUPPOSEDLY HAD ALL OF YOUR ISSUES RESOLVED. AND THOSE WERE TO BE MEMORIALIZED IN YOUR AGREEMENT AND BROUGHT BACK TO YOU AND ALSO GIVE YOU AN OPPORTUNITY TO TAKE THE CODE AND HAVE IT AMENDED TO MAKE IT CONSISTENT WITH THOSE ITEMS THAT YOU AGREED UPON AT THE LAST MEETING. AND I HAD SENT YOU SOME DOCUMENTS ABOUT SOME ISSUES THAT HAVE COME UP AND I WANT TO GIVE THEM . . . 13 1 BACK TO YOU AGAIN JUST FOR CONVENIENCE, IF I 2 COULD. AND WHAT WE COULD DO, IF YOU CHOOSE, IS 3 JUST FOLLOW THOSE ITEMS WHICH ARE AT ISSUE AND SEE 4 IF WE CAN RESOLVE THOSE. 5 ALSO, I'M GOING TO PASS OUT TO YOU AN UPDATED 6 MAP OF EXHIBIT A. 7 MR. GRINDSTAFF: COULD WE GET ONE OF THOSE, 8 PLEASE? 9 MR. MCLEMORE: I THOUGHT YOU HAD ONE. 10 MR. GRINDSTAFF: AND THE UPDATED CODE, IF YOU 11 HAVE IT. WE HAVEN'T SEEN THAT, EITHER. 12 MAYOR PARTYKA: WHILE WE'RE DOING THIS, A 13 QUESTION. DOES THE PUBLIC HAVE THESE DOCUMENTS? 14 MR. MCLEMORE: PROBABLY NOT. 15 MAYOR PARTYKA: LET'S GET OURSELVES 16 ORGANIZED. 17 MR. MCLEMORE: 18 IN THE INFORMATION WE PUT OUT FRONT. 19 MAYOR PARTYKA: RIGHT. IS IT POSSIBLE TO 20 ONEI I I TAKE MAYBE A FIVE-MINUTE RECESS AND MAYBE MAKE 21 OR TWO, THREE, FOUR COPIES AVAILABLE TO THE 22 PUBLICi I MEAN, AT THIS POINT IN TIME, BECAUSE 23 THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON, SO NO ONE 24 CAN EVEN FOLLOW THIS FROM A PUBLIC STANDPOINT. IF 25 THERE'S ANY KIND OF PUBLIC INPUT -- I MEAN, THEY . . . 21 22 23 24 25 14 1 HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS WE DO. 2 ANDREA, HOW FAST CAN YOU MAKE, LIKE, FIVE 3 COPIES OR SOMETHING OF THIS DRAFT AGREEMENT? 4 MR. MCLEMORE: CAN WE TAKE FIVE MINUTES? 5 MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. LET'S TAKE TEN 6 MINUTES. LET'S MAKE THE NECESSARY COPIES SO WE 7 CAN HAVE SOME COPIES OUT HERE FOR THE PUBLIC. 8 OKAY. 9 MR. MCLEMORE: COULD WE TALK ABOUT HOW WE'RE 10 GOING TO HANDLE THIS THIS EVENING? 11 MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. LET'S DO THAT. 12 MR. MCLEMORE: MY SUGGESTION WAS THAT WE GO 13 OVER THE ISSUES THAT ARE OUTSTANDING THAT HAVE 14 COME UP OVER THE LAST WEEK. THERE HAVE BEEN TWO 15 OR THREE NEW ITEMS THAT WERE PUT IN THE DOCUMENT 16 BY MR. GRINDSTAFF AND MR. SCHRIMSHER. WE HAVE 17 RAISED THE ISSUE OURSELVES THAT WE FELT LIKE 18 NEEDED TO BE -- A COUPLE THAT NEEDED TO BE 19 ADDRESSED, OR WE'RE GOING TO SPEND A LOT OF TIME 20 GOING OVER STUFF WE'VE ALREADY BEEN OVER. SO MY SENSE IS TO LET US ADDRESS THE ISSUES THAT WE KNOW ARE OUTSTANDING. IF MR. SCHRIMSHER AND MR. GRINDSTAFF THINK THERE ARE OTHER ISSUES WE NEED TO ADDRESS, THEY CAN BRING THOSE UP. BUT I THINK THIS IS GOING TO TRY TO SHORTEN THE PERIOD . . . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 1 IF WE DO IT THIS WAY. 2 MAYOR PARTYKA: THAT'S FINE. 3 MR. MCLEMORE: MICKEY, DO YOU HAVE ANY 4 COMMENT? 5 MR. GRINDSTAFF: MY ONLY COMMENT IS THERE ARE 6 SOME THINGS WE HAVE NOT -- FOR THE RECORD, 7 MR. MAYOR, MY NAME IS MICHAEL GRINDSTAFF, LAW FIRM 8 OF SHUTTS & BOWEN. I REPRESENT THE SCHRIMSHER 9 GROUP. OUR ADDRESS IS 20 NORTH ORANGE AVENUE, 10 SUITE 1000, ORLANDO. WITH ME TONIGHT IS MICHAEL 11 SCHRIMSHER, A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE SCHRIMSHER 12 GROUP, AS WELL. 13 WE DID MAKE SOME CHANGES THAT WERE CONSISTENT 14 WITH OUR DISCUSSIONS FROM THE 4/24 MEETING. IN 15 ADDITION, WE MADE SOME ADDITIONAL REVISIONS THAT II 16 DO NOT BELIEVE ARE OBJECTIONABLE. WE'LL LET BOTH 17 ANTHONY AND RON SPEAK TO THOSE. 18 ONE THING THAT HAD -- HAS COME TO LIGHT SINCE OUR 4/24 MEETING -- IN FACT, IT WAS IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING THE 4/24 MEETING, THAT'S APRIL 24TH, IS SOME CONFUSION PERTAINING TO THE -- THAT PORTION OF THE CROSS SEMINOLE TRAIL RUNNING ALONG THE WESTERN BOUNDARY OF WETLAND PARK. IT'S CURRENTLY 100 FEET WIDE. THE EXISTING TRAIL IS 100 FEET WIDE. THE PAVED PORTION OF THE TRAIL THAT WAS . . . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 1 RUNNING UP THAT SIDE OF WETLAND PARK WAS 2 CONTEMPLATED I THINK EVERYONE AGREES THAT'S 3 CONTEMPLATED TO BE 50 FEET WIDE. WELL, THAT'S ON 4 THE EASTERN SIDE OF THE 100 FEET NEXT TO WETLAND 5 PARK. 6 AND THEN THAT LEFT OPEN AND IN LIMBO WHAT WAS 7 GOING TO BE HAPPENING TO THE WESTERN SECTION -- 8 THE WESTERN PORTION OF THE CROSS SEMINOLE TRAIL 9 ALONG THAT LINE. 10 STAY WITH ME HERE. BUT THE EASTERN PORTION, 11 THE EASTERN 50 FEET OF MAGNOLIA PARK IS IN THAT 12 LITTLE STRIP OF CONFUSION AND IS .20 ACRES. AND 13 THAT'S ONE ISSUE AS TO-~ WE ALL SAT HERE AND 14 AGREED THAT MAGNOLIA PARK WAS INTENDED TO BE .79 15 ACRES. SCHRIMSHER OWNS .59 OF THAT .79 ACRES. 16 THE STATE OWNS THE OTHER .20, AND IT'S IN THAT 17 PORTION OF THE TRAIL. 18 I THINK THERE'S BEEN AN ASSUMPTION, RIGHTFULLY OR WRONGFULLY AND IT WAS A MISTAKE ON EVERYONE'S PART -- IF IT CANNOT BE INCORPORATED INTO MAGNOLIA PARK, IT'S WRONG. I MEAN, UNLESS -- UNTIL THE STATE EITHER ALLOWS YOU TO INCORPORATE I THAT PORTION OF THE TRAIL INTO MAGNOLIA PARK, OR i I DEEDS IT OVER TO SCHRIMSHER AND THEY ALLOW YOU -- I THEY CONVEY IT AS PART OF THE .79, THEN IT DOESN'Tj . . . 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 1 BECOME A PORTION OF MAGNOLIA PARK THAT SCHRIMSHER 2 CAN CONVEY. I DON'T KNOW IF I SAID THAT CLEARLY. 3 MR. MCLEOD: PRESENTLY, YOU DON'T OWN THAT 4 SECTION. 5 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE DON'T OWN IT. 6 MR. MCLEOD: WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY THAT? 7 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WELL, THAT'S RIGHT. WE 8 DON'T OWN IT, AND YOU EXPECT US TO GIVE IT TO 9 YOU. WE CAN'T GIVE IT TO YOU. 10 ANOTHER THING IS EDGE DRIVE RUNS ACROSS -- 11 MR. MCLEOD: MAYOR, EXCUSE ME. I THOUGHT WE 12 WERE GOING TO GO FOR PROCEDURE AND THEN TAKE A 13 BREAK AND THEN GO INTO IT. 14 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I THINK HE WANTED TO GO INTO THE ISSUES. I MEAN, THESE ISSUES CAME UP. MAYOR PARTYKA: NO. NO. WE NEED TO GET SOME, i COPIES OUT AND WE'LL GET RIGHT TO THE ISSUE. BUT RIGHT NOW, FROM A PROCEDURAL STANDPOINT, I THINK WE'RE GOING TO GO WITH WHAT YOU SUGGESTED. THEN WE'LL GO RIGHT TO YOU. MR. MCLEMORE: AND I WOULD LIKE, IF WE COULD, TO LET STAFF GO FIRST, AND THEN LET THEM RESPOND TO THOSE. I THINK THERE ARE DEFINITELY SOME DIFFERENCES OF OPINION HERE. AND ON THE THINGS WE AGREED TO, WE CAN KNOCK THOSE OUT VERY QUICKLY. . . . 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 18 1 MR. GRINDSTAFF: CAN WE GET A COpy OF THE NEW 2 MAP, ALSO? WE HAVEN'T SEEN THAT. 3 MAYOR PARTYKA: WE'LL MAKE SOME COPIES OF 4 EVERYTHING. 5 MR. MARTINEZ: I WAS GOING TO SUGGEST THAT 6 THE MANAGER LEAD IN THIS ONE WHEN WE RECONVENE, 7 BECAUSE HE HAS TWO MEMOS HEREi ONE DATED MAY 5TH 8 AND ONE DATED MAY 8TH, AND HE HAS TO CLEAR THIS UP 9 FIRST. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. GOOD. ALL RIGHT. I'M GOING TO TAKE A 15-MINUTE BREAK. I'M GOING TO MAKE SURE WE GET COPIES FOR EVERYBODY OF THE NEW STUFF THAT WAS DONE, INCLUDING YOURSELF. MR. GRINDSTAFF: AND THE NEW CODE? MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. MR. MCLEOD: THE 15 COMES OFF THE SCHRIMSHER'S HOUR, RIGHT? MAYOR PARTYKA: YEAH, RIGHT. 19 (WHEREUPON, A BRIEF RECESS WAS TAKEN.) 20 21 22 23 24 25 MAYOR PARTYKA: ANDREA. WHERE ARE YOU, ANDREA? WE'RE ALL SET. OKAY. CALL THIS MEETING BACK TO ORDER, PLEASE. ALL RIGHT. I'D LIKE TO CALL THIS MEETING BACK TO ORDER. AND YOU'RE ALL SET, ANDREA? OKAY. CITY MANAGER, I'M GOING TO TURN IT OVER TO . . . 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 1 YOU TO LEAD THIS DISCUSSION. 2 MR. MCLEMORE: OKAY. IF YOU'LL TURN TO THE 3 HANDOUT -- IF YOU'LL COME TO THE HANDOUT I GAVE 4 YOU TONIGHT, THE QUESTION WAS, FIRST, EXPLAIN THE 5 MAY 8TH AND THE MAY 5TH DIFFERENCES HERE. AND THE 6 MAY 5TH WAS MY TRANSMITTAL TO YOU OF THE ISSUES 7 THAT WE WERE AWARE OF ON MAY 5TH, GOING AND 8 READING THE AGREEMENT THAT HAD BEEN TRANSMITTED TO 9 US BY MR. GRINDSTAFF. REVIEWING THAT IN AN 10 ATTEMPT TO GET YOU READY FOR TONIGHT, MAKE YOU 11 AWARE OF THE ISSUES THAT WE SAW IN THE LAST DRAFT. 12 TODAY, AS WE WERE GOING THROUGH THIS AGAIN, I 13 NOTICED ANOTHER ISSUE THAT WE NEEDED TO CLARIFY. 14 AND WHAT THE MAY 8TH IS IS THE MEMO THAT I SENT TO MICKEY RELATIVE TO THAT OTHER ISSUE, WHICH IS 2-0.1 15 16 SO THESE PAGES THAT I HAVE IN FRONT OF YOU AND WHAT I GAVE YOU TONIGHT, THE MAY 8TH MEMO AND MAY 5TH -- OR THE TWO MAY 5TH MEMOS, REPRESENT THE ISSUES AS OF TODAY AS BEST WE UNDERSTAND THEM. AND I NEED TO POINT OUT THAT SOME OF THIS HAS TO DO -- AND I THINK THE BIG ISSUE RELATIVE TO THE ALIGNMENT OF THE TRAIL, THE WESTERN END OF IT, AND MAGNOLIA PARK IS A RESULT OF THE ACTUAL SURVEYING IN THE FIELD THAT IS REVEALING INFORMATION AND PROBABLY WILL CONTINUE, POTENTIALLY, TO POINT OUT . . . 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 20 1 THINGS IN THE FIELD THAT ARE NOT EXACTLY AS SHOWN 2 IN THE PLAN. AND THAT'S TO BE EXPECTED. 3 SO IF I COULD COVER THESE WITH YOU, I'LL JUST 4 START WITH THE MAY 8TH MEMORANDUM. AND I THINK 5 THAT WAS PRETTY CLEAR WHERE I'M BASICALLY SAYING 6 THAT BASED ON FURTHER ANALYSIS THAT WE'VE HAD WITH 7 OUR CONSULTING ENGINEERS, THE LANGUAGE I'M 8 SORRY. I'M ON THE WRONG ONE -- ON MAY 8TH -- I 9 WAS BACK ON MAY 5TH. THE 2-0 RELATES TO THE ISSUEI , 10 OF THE LANGUAGE IN THE WETLAND PARK DEFINITION, 11 STATING THAT IT WAS, AS STATED IN THE CURRENT 12 IN THE LAST DRAFT, APPROXIMATELY 23.36 ACRES. 13 AND IN PRIOR DISCUSSIONS, I THOUGHT WE HAD 14 COME TO THE AGREEMENT THAT WE WERE NOT GOING TO 15 USE THE WORD "APPROXIMATE" WHEN WE WERE DEALING 16 WITH WHAT THE CITY'S PURCHASING. WE'RE EITHER 17 PURCHASING SOMETHING OR WE'RE NOT PURCHASING IT. AND "APPROXIMATE," I'M VERY UNCOMFORTABLE WITH. SO WHAT WE'RE SAYING HERE IS WE ARE AGREEING TO BUY 23.36 ACRES. AND IF, IN THE FIELDWORK, IN TRYING TO MAKE REDUCE THIS TO ACTUAL SURVEYING, IF THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME SMALL CONFIGURATION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF WETLAND PARK BECAUSE OF WHATEVER -- IN THIS CASE, IT'S THE DESIRE TO CHANGE SOME LOCATION OF THE TRAIL -- THEN IT GIVES . . . 22 23 24 25 21 1 US FLEXIBILITY TO ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN, BUT YOU 2 HAVE A KNOWN. YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE BUYING. SO 3 YOU COULD CHANGE THE CONFIGURATION, BUT YOU'RE 4 STILL GETTING 23.36 ACRES AND NOT LESS THAN THAT 5 FOR THE THINGS OF CONSIDERATION IN VALUE THAT 6 YOU'RE OFFERING IN THIS CONTRACT. I DON'T THINK 7 THE CITY SHOULD BE IN A POSITION OF HAVING A 8 MOVING TARGET AS TO WHAT YOU'RE GETTING. 9 SO WHAT WE'RE REQUESTING WAS THAT THE WORD 10 "APPROXIMATE" BE DROPPED AND BE PUT IN THERE IINOT 11 LESS THAN 23 OR 23.36 ACRES, II AND ALLOW FOR MINOR 12 MODIFICATIONS IN THE CONFIGURATION OF THE LAND. 13 BUT HAVE A KNOWN AS TO WHAT IT IS YOU'RE BUYING. 14 SO, YOU KNOW, WE APPARENTLY DISAGREE ON THIS'I ! 15 AND I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO COME TO A CONCLUSION 16 OF THIS ISSUE. 17 IF WE MOVE ON TO THE MAY 5TH 18 MR. GRINDSTAFF: MAY 8TH. 19 MR. MCLEMORE: WELL, I JUST DID MAY 8TH. 20 IF WE MOVE ON TO THE MAY 5TH THEN -- 21 MR. MCLEOD: EXCUSE ME, MAYOR. MAY I ASK SOMETHING? MAYOR PARTYKA: SURE. MR. MCLEOD: YOU KNOW, I THINK WE'RE IN A SET HERE AND WE'RE GOING TO GO THROUGH ITEM BY ITEM BY . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 . 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . 22 ITEM. AND THEN WE'RE GOING TO COME BACK AND GO THROUGH AND HAVE DISCUSSION ON ITEM BY ITEM BY ITEM. I THINK WE'RE GOING TO REPEAT THE SAME ITEMS. I THINK YOU PRESENTED YOUR CASE ON 2-0, WETLAND PARK, ON THE 23.36 ACRES. I THINK THE SCHRIMSHERS SHOULD HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO STATE THEIR CASE, AND THEN I THINK THE COMMISSION THEN SHOULD DECIDE WHERE WE STAND AS THE CITY, AND THEN GO TO THE NEXT ISSUE. MR. MCLEMORE: WELL, IF I COULD ADD ONE MORE THING, IF THAT'S YOUR DIRECTION. MR. GRINDSTAFF RAISED TODAY, WELL, LET'S DON'T PUT IN "NOT LESS THliN." LET'S JU3T PUT IN "23.36 ACRES." I H.~VE ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM WITH THAT. I'M NOT ASKING FOR ONE BIT MORE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: NOW, I SAID THAT'S SOMETHING WE WOULD DISCUSS WITH MR. SCHRIMSHER. MR. MCLEMORE: CORRECT. OKAY. MAYOR PARTYKA: I THINK COMMISSIONER MCLEOD MAKES A VERY GOOD POINT. LET'S TALK A POINT, GET IT OUT OF THE WAY, DONE, AND LET'S GO ON TO THE NEXT ONE. MR. BLAKE: I AGREE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I THINK THAT'S A GOOD ONE. . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 23 I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE TWO BIG ONES LEFT. AND MY RECOLLECTION, DATING BACK TO THE MEETING THAT INCLUDED COMMISSIONER BLAKE AND COMMISSIONER MCLEOD, INCLUDED -- WE ALL KNEW THAT SOME OF THIS STUFF WAS GOING TO HAVE TO BE TWEAKED AS THE SURVEYS WERE PRODUCED. AND WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW -- I MEAN, WE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THAT WOULD BE. I MEAN, IT COULD BE HIGH. IT COULD BE LOW. ONE THING WE KNOW FOR SURE, WE ALL KNOW AND I THINK WE ALL AGREE -- AT LEAST THAT'S MY IMPRESSION -- IS THAT THE WESTERN BOUNDARY OF WETLAND PARK IS BOUNDED BY THE EXISTING TRAIL. THE EASTERN BOUNDARY -- SORT OF THE NORTHERLY AND EASTERLY BOUNDARY OF WETLAND PARK IS BOUNDED BY SPINE ROAD, QUOTE, AS CLOSE AS IS PRACTICABLE TO THE WETLANDS WHILE MAINTAINING THE CURVATURE OF THE ROAD. NOT JAGGED. AS CLOSE AS PRACTICABLE. WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT'S GOING TO BE, BUT WE KNOW HOW TO CALCULATE IT. AND WE KNOW THAT THE SOUTHEASTERLY SIDE IS ALSO AS CLOSE AS IS PRACTICABLE WITH THE CURVATURE OF THAT TRAIL COMING -- AS WE'VE ALL DISCUSSED, GETTING RID OF THAT 90-DEGREE TURN AND KIND OF CURVING TO THE SOUTHWESTERLY. . . . 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 24 1 SO WE ALL KNOW WHAT THOSE DIMENSIONS ARE, AND 2 THE ACREAGE IS WHAT IT IS. BUT TO GET BOGGED DOWN 3 OVER .10, .2, IN EITHER DIRECTION IS JUST WRONG. 4 WE THINK WHATEVER IT TURNS OUT TO BE, IT IS -- IT 5 IS. 6 AND WE'VE HAD SOME DISCUSSIONS, NOT WITH OUR 7 SURVEYOR, BUT WITH YOU-ALL'S SURVEYOR, AND I THINK 8 THIS IS ALL VERY, VERY CLOSE. WHAT'S WRONG WITH 9 GETTING IT ACCURATE? WE ALL KNOW WHAT THE 10 COMPONENTS ARE. SO THAT'S WHERE WE ARE ON THE 11 23.36. 12 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. COMMISSIONER BLAKE. MR. BLAKE: MR. GRINDSTAFF. MR. GRINDSTAFF: YES, SIR. MR. BLAKE: WOULD YOU ACCEPT, IN RETURN, A NUMBER TODAY OF EXACTLY HOW MANY LINEAR FEET OF WATER PIPES THAT YOU WILL LAY OR HOW MANY TONS OF ASPHALT? MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION, BECAUSE WE USED THAT IN THE DISCUSSION POINT TODAY. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT WOULD BE. YOU KNOW WHAT WE'RE COUNTING ON YOU TO DO? WE'RE COUNTING ON YOU TO DO WHAT IS RIGHTi AND THAT IS TO PROVIDE THE SYSTEM WITHOUT REGARD TO THE EXACT LINEAR FEET. 25 . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 - '- - 23 24 25 . . WHAT YOU ARE ASKING US IS YOU WANT THE WETLAND PARK. YOU WANT THE WETLAND PARK BOUNDED ON THE WEST SIDE BY THE TRAIL, BOUNDED ON THE EAST SIDE BY SPINE ROAD AS CLOSE AS PRACTICABLE, AND BOUND ON THE SOUTHEASTERLY SIDE, AS CLOSE AS PRACTICABLE, BY THE TRAIL. WHATEVER THAT TURNS OUT TO BE IS WHATEVER IT TURNS OUT TO BE. THAT'S WETLAND PARK. MR. BLAKE: BUT, MR. GRINDSTAFF, THAT'S EXACTLY MY POINT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: AGREED. MR. BLAKE: MY POINT IS, WHAT YOU WANT ARE PIPES THAT CONNECT AND PIPES THAT WORK. YOU DON'T CARE HOW MANY FEET IT IS, RIGHT? MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT'S RIGHT. MR. BLAKE: AND WHAT YOU WANT IS A ROAD THAT CONNECTS AT BOTH ENDS. MR. GRINDSTAFF: AND MEETS THE DIMENSIONS OF SPINE ROAD AS DICTATED IN THE CODE. THAT'S CORRECT. MR. BLAKE: OF COURSE. AND WHAT WE WANT ARE THE DIMENSIONS OF THE PARK, IN TERMS OF ACREAGE, THAT WE PREVIOUSLY AGREED UPON. AND IF THE ROAD HAS TO MOVE 6 INCHES IN ORDER TO ACCOMPLISH THAT, THEN THE ROAD MOVES 6 INCHES TO ACCOMPLISH THA~. . . . 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 1 BUT IN ORDER FOR US TO HAVE -- 2 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WHAT IF YOU NEED MORE 3 ACREAGE, MIKE? WHAT IF YOU NEED MORE ACREAGE? 4 MR. BLAKE: WHAT IF WE NEED LESS? 5 MR. GRINDSTAFF: THEN WE HAVE TO ADJUST. 6 MR. BLAKE: THE WHOLE POINT IS THAT WE KNOW 7 WHATEVER THIS NUMBER IS, THIS 23.36 ACRES, THAT'S 8 OUR COMPENSATION IN THAT AREA. AND FOR THAT LEVEL IF IT TAKES I 9 OF COMPENSATION, WE BUILD THE ROAD. 10 THIS MANY TONS OR THAT MANY TONS OF ASPHALT, WE 11 GIVE YOU THE FINISHED PRODUCT AND WE MAKE SURE THE 12 PIPES CONNECT ON BOTH ENDS. 13 WE DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH THAT'S GOING TO BE, 14 EITHER, JUST LIKE YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE THE ROAD'S 15 GOING TO GO EXACTLY, BUT YOU DO KNOW FOR SURE 16 EXACTLY HOW MUCH ACREAGE YOU HAVE TO GIVE OVER AND 17 NOT A FOOT MORE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WOULD YOU AGREE THAT A DESCRIPTION OF WETLAND PARK BOUNDED ON THE WEST SIDE BY THE TRAIL, BOUNDED ON THE EAST SIDE BY SPINE ROAD, AS CLOSE AS PRACTICABLE TO MAINTAIN THE CURVE, BOUNDED BY THE TRAIL ON THE SOUTHEAST SIDE, MEETS YOUR DESCRIPTION OF WETLAND PARK? MR. BLAKE: NO. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WHY NOT? . . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . 27 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 MR. BLAKE: BECAUSE THAT'S NOT WHAT WE NEGOTIATED. WHAT WE NEGOTIATED MR. GRINDSTAFF: YOU'VE GOT THE (INAUDIBLE) ACREAGE THAN YOU NEED FOR THAT PARK. MR. BLAKE: THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT THAT IDEA OF AN AREA THAT'S NOT DEVELOPABLE, TO YOU ANYWAY, THAT IS BOUND BY THESE FEATURES, IS WHERE WE CAME UP WITH THE INITIAL NOTION OF HOW MUCH ACREAGE THAT MIGHT BE. BUT AT THE NEGOTIATING TABLE, WHEN WE SAT DOWN, WE TALKED ACREAGE, THE NUMBERS OF ACRES. SIMPLE AS THAT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE TALKED NUMBER OF ACRES. WE ALSO TALKED POSSIBLE ADJUSTMENTS DUE TO THE ACTUAL LOCATION OF THESE PARAMETERS. MR. BLAKE: NOT OF THE PARK SIZES, WE DID NOT. 18 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I THINK WE DISAGREE. MR. BLAKE: OKAY. WELL, WE MR. SCHRIMSHER: I MEAN, YOU KEEP SAYING THAT, AND WE'LL KEEP SAYING OURS. MR. BLAKE: BUT TO COME TO AN AGREEMENT THEN, THE DISCUSSION WAS HAD EARLIER THAT THAT NUMBER WOULD BE 23.36. DO WE AGREE ON THAT? BECAUSE IF WE DON'T, THEN -- . . . 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 28 1 MR. SCHRIMSHER: NO. 2 MR. BLAKE: -- WE HAVE A LOT OF TIME LEFT IN 3 THE HOUR. 4 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. LET'S GET ALL THE 5 POSITIONS OUT. AND COMMISSIONER -- 6 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I DO LIKE YOUR ANALOGY, 7 THOUGH, BECAUSE I THINK I BROUGHT UP THE SAME 8 POINT WITH MICKEY IN OUR CONVERSATION TO USE TO 9 DEFEND OUR SIDEi WHICH IS, IT MAKES ABOUT AS MUCH 10 SENSE TO PINPOINT THE SIZE OF MAGNOLIA PARK TO A 11 HUNDREDTH OF AN ACRE FOR ME TO TRY TO HOLD YOU TO 12 THE LENGTH OF PIPE TO THE NEAREST FOOT. IT MAKES 13 NO SENSE. 14 WHAT WE REALLY CARE IS THAT IT WORKS, AND THE 15 SAME WITH THE -- IT'S THE SAME WITH THE PARK. THE 16 PARK WORKS BY MEETING THE PARAMETERS WE DESCRIBED, 17 NOT BY BEING A CERTAIN HUNDREDTH OF AN ACRE. MR. BLAKE: EXACTLY. AND EXACTLY IT. WHAT YOU'RE INTERESTED IN ARE THE PRODUCTS THAT WE ARE GOING TO PROVIDE AS PART OF THE DEAL TO MAKE THEM WORK. AND WHAT WE ALWAYS HAVE REQUIRED AND ARE STILL REQUIRING AT THIS POINT IN TIME IS A SPECIFIC LEVEL OF ACREAGE THAT WE PREVIOUSLY AGREED UPON IN ORDER TO COMPENSATE FOR THAT. I IT'SI . . . 20 21 22 23 24 25 29 1 JUST LIKE WHEN YOU TO GO A STORE AND BUY 2 SOMETHING. 3 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I THINK IT'S IN THE CITY'S 4 BEST INTEREST TO MAKE THE PARK AS BIG AS IT NEEDS 5 TO BE TO WORK, NOT TO FIX A SET ACREAGE THAT MAY 6 BE SLIGHTLY TOO SMALL, SLIGHTLY TOO BIG, AND 7 UNNECESSARILY WASTE DEVELOPABLE UPLANDS THAT 8 YOU -- THAT COULD BE DEVELOPED AND CREATE THE 9 INTENSITY YOU WANT AND PROVIDE A BETTER TAX BASE 10 THAT YOU WANT. 11 MR. BLAKE: BUT THAT'S NOT THE LANGUAGE THAT 12 WE SUGGESTED THAT WAS REPLACING YOURS WAS TO 13 NOT LESS THAN, WHICH MEANS IT CAN FLUCTUATE. BUT 14 IT CAN'T FLUCTUATE ANY SMALLER. 15 IF WE'RE GIVING UP ALL THESE SIGNIFICANT 16 DOLLARS AND VALUE TO YOU, THEN WE NEED TO MAKE 17 SURE THAT WE'RE GOING TO GET NOT LESS THAN AT 18 LEAST A MINIMAL AMOUNT. AND THAT MINIMAL AMOUNT 19 IS ALREADY PREVIOUSLY AGREED UPON AS 23.36 ACRES. MR. SCHRIMSHER: THAT'S YOUR VIEW. I DISAGREE THAT WE AGREED TO A MINIMAL AMOUNT, NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU SAY IT. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. WE'RE GOING TO MOVE ONI TO OTHER COMMISSIONERS AND THE CITY MANAGER WANTS TO SAY SOMETHING RIGHT NOW. . . . 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 30 1 MR. MCLEMORE: WELL, AGAIN, THE POINT THAT 2 YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT HERE AND THE WAY TO TRY TO 3 BRING THE RIGHT ANALOGY IS THE FINITE AGREEMENT 4 THAT YOU HAVE ON YOUR SIDE IS YOU HAVE TO PRODUCE 5 THAT PRODUCT. AND THAT PRODUCT IS STATED. IT WAS 6 A ROAD THAT WORKS AND WATER LINE THAT WORKS, SEWER 7 LINE THAT WORKS, WHATEVER. AND YOU'RE ON THE HOOK 8 FOR WHATEVER THOSE DOLLARS COST. IF THOSE DOLLARS 9 GO UP 25 OR 30 PERCENT IN THE NEXT TWO YEARS, YOU 10 HAVE TO PRODUCE THAT EXTRA 25 OR 30 PERCENT. 11 NOW, THE QUESTION IS: WHAT ARE YOU GETTING 12 IN RETURN FOR THAT GUARANTEE? YOU'RE GUARANTEEING 13 A PRODUCT THAT WORKS. WHAT ARE YOU GETTING IN 14 RETURN FOR THAT GUARANTEE? SORT OF A PARK? 15 MR. SCHRIMSHER:' NO. 16 MR. MCLEMORE: NO. WE HAVE TO HAVE A KNOWN IN ORDER FOR YOU TO MAKE THAT COMMITMENT OF THOSE DOLLARS. AND WHEREVER THEY WILL GO, WHAT ARE YOU GETTING -- WHAT ARE YOU BEING GUARANTEED? YOU SHOULD BE GUARANTEED A MINIMAL AMOUNT OF ACREAGE, NOT WHATEVER HAPPENS TO BE ON ANY GIVEN DAY BASED ON WHOSE OPINION THAT WORD "SORT OF" MEANS OR THAT WORD "APPROXIMATE" MEANS TO HAVE A DEAL THAT'S SQUARED AWAY. MR. SCHRIMSHER: IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT A . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 '. . 31 MOVING TARGET, TALK ABOUT THE VALUE OF PROPERTY IN THE COURSE OF TWO YEARS. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. HOLD IT. CITY MANAGER, EVERYBODY -- I MEAN, EVERYBODY'S HAD THIS IS NOT COMPLICATED IN TERMS OF WHAT BOTH SIDES WANT. ALL RIGHT. BUT LET'S GET TO THE OTHER PEOPLE, BECAUSE THERE MAY BE SOME SOLUTION TO THIS. COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. MR. MARTINEZ: I AGREE WITH COMMISSIONER BLAKE'S REMARKS AND THE CITY MANAGER. AND I WOULD VENTURE TO SAY THAT IF, IN FACT, I HEARD THE MANAGER SAY WE'RE PURCHASING 23.36 ACRES -- OKAY, MONIES THAT COME OUT OF THE CITY COFFERS THAT'S DEPOSITED THERE BY TAXPAYERS OF THE CITY WHO EXPECT 23.36 ACRES. MR. GRINDSTAFF: . WHAT IF IT'S NOT ENOUGH? MR. MARTINEZ: IF IT'S NOT ENOUGH, THEN ~HE CITY MANAGER WILL HAVE TO GO BACK, REDRAW THE PARK, OR DO WHATEVER HE HAS TO DO TO MAKE SURE THAT IT WORKS. THAT'S ALL I CAN SAY. THANK YOU. MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. MR. MCLEMORE: I JUST WANT TO STATE THAT I AGREE WITH COMMISSIONER BLAKE AND HIS STATEMENTS. AND THIS HAS BEEN A 23.36 ACRES MINIMUM. AND IF, . . . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 32 1 FOR SOME REASON, THAT THE ROAD SHIFTS OVER TO 2 ACCOMMODATE WHAT WORKS BEST FOR THE SCHRIMSHERS ON 3 THIS THING, AND THEY END UP LOSING THREE-TENTHS OF 4 AN ACRE, SO BE IT. 5 BUT I THINK OUR POINT IS WELL TAKEN THAT WHAT 6 WE HAVE PURCHASED IS 23.36. AND WE SAY IT'S NOT 7 WELL DEFINED. THE GEOGRAPHY MAY BE NOT WELL 8 DEFINED, BUT WHEN IT'S DOWN INTO THE HUNDREDTHS, I 9 HAVE TO SAY SOMEBODY HAS DEFINED SOMETHING. 10 SO WE ARE WITHIN HUNDREDTHS OF AN ACRE, THEN 11 I WOULD SAY THAT WE NEED TO RESOLVE THIS THING SO 12 WE CAN ALL MOVE FORWARD. 13 MAYOR PARTYKA: WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY 14 "APPROXIMATELY, 11 JUST SO I KNOW WHl\.T THAT MEANS, 15 TOO? 16 MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT WAS A TERM THAT I KNOW 17 THAT WE WERE ALL USING, RECOGNIZING THAT THESE 18 LINES HAJ NOT YET BEEN DETERMINED. AND THAT WAS -- OUR CLIENT, AS WELL AS MYSELF, BELIEVED THAT THIS THING NEEDS TO BE NAILED DOWN. IT NEEDS TO BE NAILED DOWN IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE BOUNDARY THAT WORKS FOR THE PARK, THE WETLAND PARK. WE KNOW WHAT THEY ARE. IT'S CURIOUS TO US ESPECIALLY WITH THE SURVEY BEING, LIKE, 90 PERCENT COMPLETE, IT'S CURIOUS TO US AS TO WHY THIS . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 - 23 24 .' . 33 25 DOESN'T -- YOU GUYS AREN'T WILLING TO WAIT FOR THE SPECIFICITY OR AGREE TO THE SPECIFICITY. WE CAN DEFINE THE BOUNDARIES, AND WHATEVER THE ACREAGE IS, IT IS. AND I KNOW THAT THAT'S SOMETHING THAT MR. SCHRIMSHER FEELS VERY, VERY STRONGLY ABOUT. MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONERS, AT THIS POINT, HOW DO WE WANT TO VOTE ON THIS? WE'VE GOT TO GIVE THEM A GROUP POSITION ON THIS. SO SHALL WE JUST TAKE A VOTE ON 23.36, NOT LESS THAN, OR I GUESS THE OTHER OPTION IS APPROXIMATELY 23.36 BASED ON THE GEOGRAPHICAL BOUNDARY DESCRIBED BY THE SCHRIMSHERS? COMMISSIONER BLAKE. MR. BLAKE: MAYOR, I'M WILLING TO MAKE A MOTION TO THE COMMISSION THAT THIS PARTICULAR POINT OF BEING FOR WETLAND PARK THAT WE WILL ACCEPT NOT LESS THAN -- LET ME MAKE SURE I HAVE THE RIGHT NUMBER -- NOT LESS THAN 23.36 ACRES FOR WETLAND PARK. AND FURTHER, THAT IN THE DRAFT AGREEMENT THAT'S BEFORE US, THIS WOULD BE IN THE DEFINITION SECTION 2 -- MR. MAR TINE Z: - - O. MR. BLAKE: THANK YOU. DESCRIPTION 2-0 ON THE DEFINITION OF WETLAND PARK, THIRD LINE, THAT . . 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . 34 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 SENTENCE WOULD READ "SPECIFICALLY, WETLAND PARK SHALL CONSIST OF NOT LESS THAN 23.36 ACRES AS GENERALLY DEPICTED ON EXHIBIT A," WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT THE ACTUAL CONFIGURATION OF WETLAND PARK MAY BE ADJUSTED DEPENDING UPON THE ACTUAL LOCATION OF SPINE ROAD AND THE ACTUAL LOCATION OF CROSS SEMINOLE TRAIL. MR. MCLEOD: SECOND. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. ANY DISCUSSION? MR. MCLEOD: YES. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. MR. MCLEOD: COMMISSIONER MILLER? MAYOR PARTYKA: I THINK HE WAS STILL THINKING ABOUT IT. MR. MCLEOD: OH, OKAY. YES. I THINK -- WHAT DOES THE END OF THAT DEFINITION MEAN? I THINK WHAT THAT SAYS IS THAT IF IT MEANS THE ROAD MAY HAVE TO SHIFT FURTHER TO THE WEST OR A LITTLE FURTHER NORTH IN ORDER TO ACCOMMODATE THE 23.36 ACRES, SO THAT WE CAN MAKE SURE WE UNDERSTAND. MR. BLAKE: OR EVEN TOWARDS THE WETLAND. MR. MCLEOD: OR EVEN TOWARDS THE WETLAND. WELL, IF SO BE DESIRED, YES. THAT'S CORRECT. THANK YOU. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. ANYONE ELSE UNDER . . . 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 35 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 DISCUSSION? MR. SCHRIMSHER: DO WE GET TO SAY SOMETHING? MAYOR PARTYKA: AT THIS POINT, NOT YET, BECAUSE WE'RE TRYING TO GET A TRUE POSITION HERE, SO AT LEAST YOU KNOW WHAT THIS COMMISSION IS DECIDING AS A GROUP. OKAY? AND THEN WE'LL GO ON BACK. OKAY. CALL THE VOTE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MR. SCHRIMSHER: ON WHAT? MAYOR PARTYKA: THAT THE LANGUAGE IS GOING TO BE -- THE MOTION IS NOT LESS THAN 23.36 ACRES. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER BLAKE. MR. BLAKE: AYE. THE CLERK: DEPUTY MAYOR GENN2LL. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. MR. MCLEOD: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. MR. MARTINEZ: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MILLER. MR. MILLER: AYE. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. THE MOTION BASICALLY SAYS, THIS COMMISSION AGREES AS A GROUP THAT IT SHOULD BE NOT LESS THAN 23.36 ACRES IN THIS 15 . . 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . 36 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 CONTRACT. NOW MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE AS A GROUP. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. CITY MANAGER, WHAT HAPPENS UNDER THIS SITUATION? THEY DISAGREE. HERE'S THE COMMISSION'S POSITION. WHAT HAPPENS NOW? 9 MR. MCLEMORE: WELL-- MR. MCLEOD: YOU HAVE NO CONTRACT. MR. MCLEMORE: THERE ARE TWO POTENTIAL ISSUES. NUMBER ONE -- OR THINGS THAT HAPPEN ALL THE TERMS OF WHAT YOU'RE SAYING ARE ACCEPTABLE TO YOU. IF THEY DON'T AGREE, THEN YOU DON'T HAVE AN AGREEMENT. THE OTHER THING IS YOU MAY -- I THINK PROBABLY BY TOMORROW AFTERNOON THE FINAL SURVEY WILL BE DONE AND YOU WILL SEE WHETHER OR NOT YOU'RE GETTING YOUR 32.36 SEE WHAT THEY'RE GIVING. THING THAT -- MR.' BLAKE: 23.36. MR. MCLEMORE: YEAH, WHATEVER. AND THE WAY I SEE IT, THE ONLY THING THAT THEY ARE OBLIGATED TO DO IS KEEP THAT MINIMUM LANGUAGE. AND IT MAY TAKE [SIC] ACRES, AND THEY'LL AND AGAIN, THE ONLY . . . 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 37 1 SOME MINOR MODIFICATIONS TO GET YOU THERE. BUT I 2 THINK FROM WHAT WE'VE SEEN TODAY, I THINK IT'S 3 GOING TO BE ALL RIGHT. I DON'T THINK THERE'S 4 GOING TO BE A PROBLEM. BUT-- 5 MR. MARTINEZ: YOU NOTICE THE ADDITIONAL 6 SENTENCE AT THE END IN THAT SECTION MORE OR LESS 7 GOES ALONG WITH WHAT MR. GRINDSTAFF HAS BEEN 8 SAYING. IT GIVES THE OPTION OF GOING IN THE 9 DIRECTION DEPENDING ON WHAT HAPPENS AT THE END. 10 MAYOR PARTYKA: WELL, IT DOESN'T QUITE SAY 11 THAT. RIGHT NOW, IT'S PROTECTING NOT LESS THAN 12 23.36 UNDER ALL CONDITIONS. SO, IN EFFECT, I T HAS 13 TO BE ADJUSTED TO 23.36 NO MATTER WHAT. THAT'S WHAT THIS IS SAYING. MR. MCLEOD: THAT'S RIGHT. THAT'S CORRECT. IF THEY WANT TO GIVE MORE THAN THAT, THAT'S UP TO THEM. MR. MARTINEZ: THAT'S RIGHT. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. SO -- MR. BLAKE: NEXT ITEM? MAYOR PARTYKA: WELL, I THINK THEY NEED TO HAVE AT LEAST A SAY HERE IN TERMS OF WHY THEY DISAGREE. MR. BLAKE: THEY HAVE ALREADY. MAYOR PARTYKA: WELL, THEY NOW UNDERSTAND THE . . . 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 38 1 GROUP POSITION. OKAY. 2 MR. SCHRIMSHER: IF YOU WANT TO HAVE A 3 DISCUSSION TONIGHT, YOU SHOULD AT LEAST LET US 4 HAVE A SAY. 5 MAYOR PARTYKA: NO. NO. YOU'LL GET A SAY, 6 BECAUSE NOW YOU UNDERSTAND, AS A GROUP, WHAT THIS 7 COMMISSION IS VERSUS ANY ONE INDIVIDUAL. 8 MR. SCHRIMSHER: RIGHT. IT'S AN INTERESTING 9 ONE-WAY STREET YOU EXPECT US TO RIDE ON RIGHT 10 HERE, TO PASS SOMETHING LIKE THAT THAT CAN BE 11 IT'S ALLOWED TO GET BIGGER, BUT IT'S NOT ALLOWED 12 TO GET SMALLER. I THINK I'LL JUST REFRESH YOUR MEMORY OF HOW WE ARRIVED AT THIS NUMBER IN THE FIRST PLACE. WHAT WE'VE AGREED TO IS WHAT MICKEY SAID SEVERAL TIMES AND I'VE SAID SEVERAL TIMES. IN FACT, I KNOW I'VE MADE THAT LITTLE SPEECH AS ELOQUENTLY AS I COULD IN THAT SAME MEETING WITH COMMISSIONER BLAKE AND MCLEOD, THAT WE HAVE NEVER SET OUT TO PINPOINT A PRECISE ACREAGE. AND IN FACT, THE WAY EACH OF THESE ACREAGES WERE ARRIVED AT IS VICTOR DOVER DREW A PLAN. HE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THE DIMENSIONS OF IT WAS. AND TERRY ZAUDTKE FROM (INAUDIBLE) FLORIDA AND YOUR OWN CITY ENGINEER SAT DOWN AND DREW BOLD . . . 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 39 1 LINES AROUND THESE THINGS AND CALCULATED AS CLOSE 2 AS THEY COULD FROM NOT AN ENGINEERING DRAWING, BUT 3 FROM A CONCEPTUAL PLAN, TO GIVE EVERYONE AN IDEA 4 OF WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT, NOT ,TO FIX PRECISE, 5 TO THE HUNDREDTH OF AN ACRE, SIZES OF THESE 6 PARTICULAR PARKS. 7 SO TO NOW TURN AROUND -- AND YOU GOT THE TAIL 8 WAGGING THE DOG NOW, BECAUSE NOW YOU'VE GOT AN 9 ACREAGE SPECIFIED THAT MAY CONTRADICT THE 10 DESCRIPTION OF HOW THIS PARK IS TO BE ARRIVED AT. 11 AND IT MAY BE SMALLER THAN IT SHOULD BE OR IT MAY 12 BE BIGGER THAN IT SHOULD BE, BECAUSE YOU HAVE 13 FOCUSED ON A PRECISE ACREAGE AMOUNT. AND ANYONE 14 WHO USES THIS PARK IS NOT GOING TO KNOW WHETHER 15 IT'S 23.0 OR 22.7 OR 23.9. I THINK MR. BLAKE'S DESCRIPTION OF THE AMOUNT OF PIPE AND THE AMOUNT OF ASPHALT AND ALL THOSE THINGS REALLY SUPPORTS OUR POSITION BETTER THAN HIS OWN. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. MR. MCLEOD: YES. I'LL REMIND YOU AS ELOQUENT AS I CAN, IN THAT MEETING, AS WE SAT THERE, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT SEEMED TO BE A MOVING TARGET WAS ACREAGE. AND ONE OF THE THINGS I TRIED TO DO IS DEFINE WHAT THOSE PARKS' ACREAGES . . . 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 40 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 WERE, AND WE GAVE UP THINGS IN THOSE MEETINGS, AS YOU DID. MR. SCHRIMSHER: AND WE'RE NOT DEBATING THE SIZE OF THE THINGS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. MR. MCLEOD: OKAY. BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CONTINUES TO BE A MOVING TARGET, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE COMMISSION CONTINUES TO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IS THESE PARKS AND THE MOVING OF THE ACREAGE. WE'RE NOT SAYING THAT WHAT WE BOUGHT AND ALL THE NUMBERS HAVE BEEN PUT IN FRONT OF US -- IS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF ACREAGE. AND FOR THAT, WE'RE PUTTING IN CERTAIN STRUCTURES. MR. SCHRIMSHER: AT THAT MEETING, WE SPECIFICALLY TALKED ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE SIZE OF THIS PARK WAS APPROXIMATE. WE SPECIFICALLY TALKED ABOUT THAT. THERE WAS NO WAY TO KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THIS ACREAGE WAS GOING TO TURN OUT TO BE. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE THAT I COULD HAVE AGREED TO SOMETHING LIKE THIS. MR. MCLEOD: I DIDN'T SAY THAT ON THIS PARK WE AGREED TO THE ACREAGE. OKAY. I'LL CLARIFY THAT. BUT ALL OTHER PARKS, WE SPENT SEVERAL HOURS THE OTHER EVENING CLARIFYING CLARIFICATION OF WHAT, THE MEETING WAS ALL ABOUT. AND I'M SORRY, BUT I 10 11 12 13 14 . . . 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 41 1 HAVE TO BELIEVE THE NUMBERS WE'VE SEEN, THE 2 DOLLARS THAT WE'RE WILLING TO PUT INTO THIS 3 PROJECT NEEDS TO HAVE SOMETHING SPECIFIED, AND THE 4 ACREAGE OF THE PARKS IS DEFINITELY ONE OF THOSE 5 KEY THINGS THAT'S BEEN AN ISSUE ALL ALONG. 6 AGAIN, IF IT COMES OUT TO 23.9, I DON'T SEE 7 THE CITY HAS AN OBLIGATION TO BUY THE DIFFERENCE 8 BETWEEN 23.36 AND 23. THAT'S UP TO YOU WHAT YOU 9 WANT TO DO WITH THAT PIECE OF PROPERTY. THE CITY 10 HAS, AT THE PRESENT TIME, DECIDED BASICALLY THAT I WHAT THE SIZE OF THAT PARK NEEDS TO BE IS 23.36 --I I 11 12 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. 13 MR. MCLEOD: FOR THE RETURN ON THE 14 INFRASTRUCTURE. MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL RIGHT. I WAS GOING TO SUGGEST, BUT I'LL WAIT UNTIL COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ MR. MARTINEZ: CITY MANAGER. MR. MCLEMORE: YES, SIR. MR. MARTINEZ: DID YOU PURCHASE 23.36 ACRES OF THAT LAND, OR ARE YOU EXPECTING TO PURCHASE AN AMOUNT OF LAND? MR. MCLEMORE: WELL, WHAT WE'RE DOING IS SAYING CONSIDERATION FOR THE VALUE OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE, 'WHICH YOU'RE GOING TO INVEST IN . . . 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 42 1 THIS TOWN CENTER, WHICH IS CONSIDERABLE, YOU ARE 2 GETTING THESE ACREAGES OF LAND. 3 MR. MARTINEZ: SO THE PRICE OF 23.36 ACRES IS 4 ALREADY INTO THE FINAL FIGURE THAT INCLUDES ALL 5 THE BENEFITS THAT THEY'RE GOING TO REAP FROM THE 6 CITY. 7 MR. MCLEMORE: YES. RIGHT. II WED 0 THE S E 8 T H I N G S, YOU G I V E US T HIS . II 9 MR. MARTINEZ: WELL, WE SPOKE BEFORE ABOUT A 10 ONE-WAY STREET, MR. SCHRIMSHER. BUT I THINK THAT 11 OVER THE YEARS AND THROUGH THE DISCUSSIONS THAT 12 WE'VE HAD HERE, I THINK THAT YOU HAVE BENT AND WE 13 HAVE BENT, ALSO. AND WE'RE VERY CLOSE ON 14 AGREEMENT HERE. 15 BUT IF WE'RE GOING TO SPEND TAXPAYERS' 16 DOLLARS TO PURCHASE LAND, YOU DO NOT EXPECT US -- HOW DO YOU EXPECT US TO ANSWER ANY CITIZEN THAT QUESTIONS THE FACT THAT WE'RE GIVING AWAY LAND TO I I I YOU, A DEVELOPER, FOR FREE, WHICH IS PAID FOR WITH! THEIR MONEY? WE CAN'T. WE HAVE NO WAY OF ANSWERING THAT. IN FACT, WE WOULD BE MR. SCHRIMSHER: THEY DON'T HAVE ANY WAY OF ASKING SUCH A QUESTION. MR. MARTINEZ: I'M JUST TELLING YOU HOW THE PEOPLE IN THE CITY FEEL WHEN WE TAKE MONEY FROM . . . 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 43 1 THE CITY COFFERS AND WE SPEND IT ON SOMETHING, AND 2 IT'S NOT MEANT TO GIVE AWAY ANYTHING TO ANYONE. 3 IT'S FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE CITY AND FOR THE 4 RESIDENTS OF THE CITY. 5 MR. SCHRIMSHER: RIGHT. AND I'M SURE THAT 6 THE CITIZENS ARE NOT GOING TO RISE UP IN ARMS 7 OVER -- SAYING, I THOUGHT WE WERE GETTING 23.36 8 ACRES. INSTEAD WE GOT, YOU KNOW, .3 MORE THAN 9 THAT/OR .3 LESS THAN THAT. 10 ALSO, WHILE WE'RE ON THE TOPIC -- 11 MR. MCLEOD: I'M SURE MR. SCHRIMSHER WOULD 12 (INAUDIBLE) THAT. 13 MR. SCHRIMSHER: -- THESE IMPROVEMENTS THAT YOU'RE MAKING ARE ONLY GOING TO BENEFIT OUR PROPERTY. ARE YOU ALL GOING TO BAR ALL OTHER PROPERTY OWNERS FROM BENEFITING FROM THESE ROADS AND SEWER AND WATER LINES? ARE THESE MY PRIVATE SEWER AND WATER LINES AND ROADS? AM I THE ONLY ONE COUGHING UP OVER 30 ACRES? JUST LOOK AT THE PICTURE AND SEE WHAT USED TO BE OUR PROPERTY AND THE BIG GUTTING THAT'S TAKEN PLACE. YOU ACT AS IF WE'RE NOT TURNING OVER SOMETHING OF VALUE TO YOU. I MEAN, LET'S KEEP IN MIND THAT WHY YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT DOING THIS IS BECAUSE, HOPEFULLY, YOU DO RECOGNIZE THE VALUE OF . . . 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 44 1 WHAT IT IS WE'RE AGREEING TO ALLOW TO HAVE DONE TO 2 OUR PROPERTY AND THAT NO ONE ELSE IS HAVING DONE 3 TO THEIRS. 4 MAYOR PARTYKA: I RECOGNIZE, AGAIN, YOUR 5 RIGHT TO YOUR OPINION, AND ALSO, AT THIS LET'S 6 DO THIS, IF WE MAY. AGAIN, LET'S MOVE ON. LET'S 7 GO TO THE NEXT ISSUE. BECAUSE, LITERALLY, WE MAY 8 COME BACK TO THIS. THERE'S THREE OR FOUR ISSUES 9 THAT WE HAVE TO FINISH UP. WE MAY HAVE AGREEMENT 10 ON THE OTHERS, AND THERE STILL MAY BE SOME 11 POSSIBILITY OF DISCUSSION HERE IN LIGHT OF WHAT HAPPENS ON THE REST. OKAY. BUT LET'S KNOCK OFF SOME OF THE OTHERS. ALL RIGHT. WE RECOGNIZE THAT YOU DISAGREE AT THIS POINT. LET'S JUST SEE WHERE THIS GOES. OKAY. HOW ABOUT THE SECOND ISSUE? MR. MCLEMORE: WELL, THE NEXT ISSUE, MAGNOLIA PARK, I THINK, POINTS OUT WHY YOU HAVE TO DEAL IN SPECIFIC ACREAGES. AND WHAT WE HAVE NOW IS A SITUATION WHERE THE SCHRIMSHERS HAVE COME FORWARD AND SAID, WE WANT TO REDUCE THE .79 ACRES FOR MAGNOLIA PARK TO .59 ACRES. AND NOT THAT THERE ARE NOT REASONS THEY'RE NOT SAYING IT. BUT IN THAT DISCUSSION, WE WANT TO REDUCE IT BY .2 ACRES, THERE WAS: "NO. AND BY . . . 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 45 1 THE WAY, FOR THAT WE WANT YOU -- YOU KNOW, WE 2 EXPECT YOU TO REDUCE YOUR CONTRIBUTION OF 3 INFRASTRUCTURE BY SOME PERCENTAGE." 4 WELL, THAT WASN'T IN THE DEAL. THE POINT 5 BEING, YOU, THROUGH YOUR CONTRIBUTION OF 6 INFRASTRUCTURE, HAVE AGREED TO PURCHASE .79 7 ACRES. BECAUSE THINGS COULD HAPPEN IN THE FIELD, 8 THEY'RE SAYING, WELL, WE DON'T OWN THAT. I DON'T 9 KNOW WHY THAT'S YOUR PROBLEM. YOU'VE AGREED TO 10 PURCHASE, FOR THINGS OF VALUE, . 7 9 ACRES. 11 SO THE POINT OF IT, AGAIN, IS THE RECONFIGURATION OF MAGNOLIA PARK CAN GIVE YOU WHAT YOU AGREED TO PURCHASE, WHICH IS .79 ACRES, INSTEAD OF JUST COMING TO YOU AND SAYING, WE'RE GOING TO REDUCE YOUR ACREAGE BECAUSE WE FEEL TODAY WE WANT TO GIVE YOU .59 RATHER THAN .79. THAT'S NOT BUSINESS, YOU KNOW. MR. GRINDSTAFF: IF YOU HAD THE PLAN RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE, WE WOULDN'T BE HERE. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. HOLD IT. LET'S JUST GET ONE AT A TIME. MR. MCLEMORE: THAT'S JUST -- WHEN YOU GET IT DOWN TO ITS SIMPLIST TERMS, THAT'S THE WAY IT IS. WE ACKNOWLEDGE THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SOME PROBL~MS, SOME ERRORS, WITHIN THE SURVEYING. THESE THINGS . . . 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 46 1 COME OUT. THAT'S FINE. 2 BUT WHAT IS IT THAT THEY'RE PROPOSING THAT WE 3 REDUCE AND WHAT WE'RE GIVING IN ORDER FOR THEM TO 4 REDUCE .2 ACRES? AND THEY'RE NOT OFFERING 5 ANYTHING. THEY'RE SAYING WE'RE JUST GOING TO GIVE 6 YOU .59 ACRES. AND I DON'T THINK WE WANT TO 7 REDUCE OUR CONTRIBUTION. I THINK WE WANT TO DO 8 WHAT WE AGREED TO DO AND I THINK THEY SHOULD DO 9 WHAT THEY AGREED TO DO, AND THAT'S GIVE YOU .79 10 ACRES. 11 AND IT MAY MEAN BROADENING THE PROPERTY OUT, 12 YOU KNOW, MAKING IT WIDER OR WHATEVER, RATHER THAN o THE EXACT CONFIGURATION THAT'S HERE TO MAKE IT HAPPEN. AND WE'RE CERTAINLY WILLING TO SIT DOWN AND DO SOME ADDITIONAL DESIGN WORK OR WHATEVER, SEE HOW WE CAN DO THAT IN A WAY THAT'S BENEFICIAL AND ACCEP~ABLE TO BOTH PARTIES. BUT YOU'RE ENTITLED TO .79 ACRES UNLESS YOU DO SOMETHING TO REDUCE YOUR CONTRIBUTION, WHICH I DON'T THINK WE WANT TO DO. I'M JUST HAVING DIFFICULTY SEEING THAT SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT WHERE JUST, ARBITRARILY, IT GOES DOWN .2. I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT AS A BUSINESS DEAL. . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 . 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . 47 MR. SCHRIMSHER: DID YOU READ THE LAST LETTER I SENT YOU? MR. MCLEMORE: SURE. I READ IT. MAYOR PARTYKA: HOLD IT. HOLD IT. MR. SCHRIMSHER: YOUR CHARACTERIZATION OF WHAT I SAID IS NOT ACCURATE. MAYOR PARTYKA: HOLD IT. I'M GOING TO HAVE EVERYBODY GET A CHANCE TO SPEAK REGARDLESS OF THE MOTION INVOLVED. SO MR. MCLEMORE IS FINISHED IN TERMS OF HIS POSITIONING, AND NOW IT'S YOUR TURN. MR. GRINDSTAFF: MR. MAYOR, I'D JUST LIKE TO POINT OUT ON THE OVERHEAD, SO EVERYBODY HERE CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, THE DRAWINGS WE STARTED HERE TO GET THIS PLAN, I MEAN, THEY DATE BACK YEARS AND YEARS. THEY GO BACK TO -- I THINK HIS NAME IS FORREST MICHAEL, THEN VICTOR DOVER, AND PROBABLY A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT STAFF MEMBERS. I DON'T KNOW WHO ALL THEY ARE. BUT THE ISSUE ON MAGNOLIA PARK AND THIS WHOLE ONE-HALF OF THE EXISTING TRAIL LIES RIGHT HERE. FROM THE OUTER EDGE OF THIS BLACK LINE AND THE OUTER EDGE OF THE BLUE LINE -- IS THAT 100 FEET, MICHAEL, BY THE EXISTING TRAIL? IT GOES UP HERE. AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS LINE HAS ALREADY GONE . . . 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 48 1 UP THROUGH HERE AND IT STOPS. PLEASE NOTE THAT IT 2 STOPS HERE. 3 AND THE .59 ACRES, THAT'S ALWAYS BEEN RIGHT 4 HERE .79 ACRES -- IT'S ALWAYS BEEN RIGHT 5 HERE HAD MAGNOLIA PARK DEFINED AS .79 ACRES. 6 WELL, THERE'S NOT .7 THERE MAY BE .79 ACRES 7 THERE, BUT IT'S NOT .79 OWNED BY SCHRIMSHER. 8 HAD THOSE MAPS AND DRAWINGS BEEN ACCURATE IN 9 THE FIRST PLACE, WE WOULDN'T BE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR DISCREPANCY OVER THE .2 ACRES. THAT'S WHAT IT BOILS DOWN TO. IT'S I NOT LIKE WE'RE TRYING TO NOT GIVE YOU SOMETHING WEj I PROMISED TO GIVE YOU. WE CAN'T CONVEY TO YOU SOMETHING WE DON'T OWN THAT YOU'VE IDENTIFIED THAT YOU WANT AS, PART OF THE .79 ACRES. THAT'S IT IN A NUTSHELL. AND SOMEWHERE ALONG THE LINE -- MIKE, YOU CAN ADDRESS THIS -- THERE WAS SOME DISCUSSION ABOUT THIS PART OF THE EXISTING TRAIL BEING ALLOWED TO BE INCORPORATED INTO THE TRAIL HEAD THAT WAS CONTEMPLATED AND SHOWN ON ALL THE DRAWINGS AS PART OF THE TRAIL HEAD ASSOCIATED WITH MAGNOLIA PARK. THAT'S THE ISSUE. MAYOR PARTYKA: AND JUST SO I'M CLEAR, IT'S 100 FOOT DOWN WITH THE BLACK AND BLUE. IT'S 100 . . . 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 49 1 FOOT, AND THEN IT GOES UP TO MAGNOLIA PARK, IN 2 EFFECT, THAT 50 FEET EXTRA IS PART OF THAT 3 MAGNOLIA PARK THE WAY IT'S DIAGRAMED RIGHT NOWj IS 4 THAT CORRECT? 5 MR. GRINDSTAFF: THE EASTERN 50 FEET OF 6 MAGNOLIA PARK -- 7 MAYOR PARTYKA: WAS THE -- 8 MR. GRINDSTAFF: -- IS WHERE THE .20 9 DISCREPANCY IS. 10 I i I I THAT'S THE PAVED TRAIL.I I I THINK I UNDERSTAND. I MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL RIGHT. MR. MCLEOD: THE BLUE PART. MR. GRINDSTAFF: NO. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. I THINK WE UNDERSTAND. COMMISSIONER MCLEOD, YOU HAVE THE FLOOR. I MR. MCLEOD: NO. I DON'T UNDERSTAND, SO LET I ME TRY TO CLARIFY. WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THAT THEJ I BLACK LINE THAT IS ON EDGE DRIVE, COMING UP TO THE! PARK -- ARE WE SAYING THAT BLACK LINE -- THAT HEAVY, BLACK LINE NOW CONTINUES THROUGH THAT PARK? MR. GRINDSTAFF: NO. I THINK THE -- THAT'S PROBABLY NOT TO SCALE. BUT I THINK, CONCEPTUALLY, THE BLUE AND THE BLACK ARE INTENDED TO BE OVERLAPPING WHAT IS NOW THE EXISTING TRAIL ALIGNMENT. 50 . 1 2 3 4 5 6 AND YOU CAN SEE THAT THE BLACK STOPS. AND FOR THAT TO HAPPEN, THERE HAD TO HAVE BEEN SOME SORT OF EITHER VACATION OF THE EXISTING TRAIL ALIGNMENT -- PLEASE NOTE THAT THE BLACK DOES NOT CONTINUE TO THE NORTH OF MAGNOLIA PARK. DO YOU SEE THAT? ALL YOU HAVE IS BLUE. MR. MCLEOD: THE BLACK ON MINE HERE SAYS THE BLACK IS EDGE DRIVE. WELL, I DON'T BELIEVE EDGE DRIVE DRIVES THROUGH THE PARK. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT'S CORRECT, MR. MCLEOD: SO I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND WHERE THE DISCUSSION ABOUT THE BLACK LINE IS. IT 7 . 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 SHOULD STOP BEFORE THE PARK, BECAUSE IT IS EDGE DRIVE. 15 MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT IS CORRECT, COMMISSIONER. BUT IT IS PRESENTLY OWNED BY THE STATE AS PART OF THE EXISTING CSX RAILROAD ROADBED OR WHATEVER YOU CALL THAT THING. MR. MCLEOD: SO WHAT IT'S SAYING IS THE BLUE LINE IS THE REALIGNMENT -- MR. GRINDSTAFF: THE BLUE LINE IS THE EASTERN HALF OF THE EXISTING TRAIL ALIGNMENT. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. MARTINEZ: IF I MAY, HE'S SAYING THAT IF . 25 THE BLACK ROAD RUNS THROUGH THE PARK, YOU WOULD ELIMINATE .20 OF THE ACREAGE INSTEAD OF -_ . . . 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 51 1 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE DON'T THINK THE BLACK 2 ROAD SHOULD RUN THROUGH THE PARK, SIR. 3 MR. MARTINEZ: BUT YOU'RE SAYING THAT THAT 4 WOULD TAKE UP THE .2. 5 MR. GRINDSTAFF: THE EXISTING ALIGNMENT GOES 6 RIGHT ON UP THROUGH THERE. THAT'S WHERE THE .20 7 IS. 8 MR. MCLEOD: DOES THE EDGE DRIVE, OR WHAT IS 9 SHOWN AS THE BLACK -- MAYOR PARTYKA: MR. MCLEOD, IF I MAY BEG A LITTLE NOTE, MR. GARGANESE WANTS TO SAY SOMETHING. I THINK I CAN MAYBE CLARIFY I MR. GARGANESE: THIS. LET ME MOVE UP HERE. MR. MCLEMORE: WHILE YOU'RE DOING THAT, CAN I. MAKE ONE WORD HERE? MR. GARGANESE: WELL, I THINK, COMMISSIONER MCLEOD, JUST SO YOU KNOW, WHAT MR. GRINDSTA~F IS SAYING IS THE cSX RAILROAD EASEMENT IS 100 FEET. IT RUNS FROM HERE TO HERE -- EXCUSE ME. MR. SCHRIMSHER: ACTUALLY, IF YOU SCALE IT, IT'S EVEN WIDER. MR. GARGANESE: WELL, IT RUNS ALL THE WAY UP TO HERE. SO IF YOU DREW A DOTTED LINE -- AND AGAIN, ANOTHER 50 FEET FROM THIS LINE TO HERE IT WOULD RUN ALL THE WAY UP. SO WHAT HE'S SAYING . . . 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 52 1 IS THIS PORTION RIGHT HERE, IF YOU DREW THAT 2 DOTTED LINE, IS .2 ACRES. 3 MR. MARTINEZ: THAT'S WHAT I SAID. 4 MR. GARGANESE: BUT HE'S NOT SAYING THAT EDGE 5 DRIVE IS GOING TO EXTEND ALL THE WAY UP. 6 MR. MCLEOD: OKAY. THE EXISTING -- WHAT HE'S 7 USING EDGE DRIVE TO RELATE TO IS THE WIDTH OF THE 8 CSX RAILROAD BOUNDARIES OF THE EASEMENT. AND THE 9 TRUE EASEMENT RUNS ON THROUGH THE PARK AND, ALSO, 10 UP THROUGH PARK NUMBER 8, WHICH IS TRAIL ENTRANCE, 11 CORRECT? MR. GRINDSTAFF: YES, SIR. MR. SCHRIMSHER: ALMOST COMPLETELY FEET. , I ! IT'sI I THEY OWNI I IT'S NOT AN EASEMENT RIGHT UP THROUGH THERE. I I \ I I I I ENCOMPASSES. MR. GRINDSTAFF: BUT IT'S NOT EASEMENT. JUST SO THAT YOU KNOW, IT'S FEET. IT. CSX OWNS IT. MR. MCLEOD: THEY HAVE A 100-FOOT WIDTH. MR. SCHRIMSHER: TEE STATE OWNS IT NOW. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THE EASTERN 20 FEET OF MAGNOLIA PARK IS OWNED BY THE STATE. MR. SCHRIMSHER: FIFTY. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I'M SORRY. THE EASTERN 50 FEET OF MAGNOLIA PARK. . . . 53 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 MR. MCLEOD: AND I THINK WHAT THE MANAGER STILL SAYS IS THAT HE GAVE UP -- OR HE BOUGHT .2 OF THAT PARK LAND NO MATTER WHERE THAT MAY BE. IT MAY MEAN THAT YOU NEED TO GO NORTH, YOU NEED TO GO SOUTH TO MAKE UP THE DIFFERENCE IF, IN FACT, THAT EASEMENT -- OR NOT EASEMENT, BUT THE RIGHT-OF-WAY OF THE 100 FOOT RUNS THROUGH THERE BY CSX. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I THINK, TO PARAPHRASE, I WOULD INTERPRET IT THAT THEY MADE A MISTAKE ON THE I DRAWING TO GET THE .79 ACRES AND ARE NOW ASKING SCHRIMSHER TO CORRECT THAT MISTAKE. MR. MCLEMORE: MAYOR PARTYKA: I DON'T THINK THAT'S CORRECT. OKAY. ONE AT A TIME. WE'LL 14 GIVE EVERYBODY A CHANCE. MR. MCLEOD: WELL, MY QUESTION IS: IT APPEARS NOT ONLY 7 IS AN ISSUE, BUT, PERHAPS, 8 IS AN ISSUE. IF THE SAME THING RUNS THROUGH 8, THAT APPEARS TO ME THAT WE HAVE PAID MONIES FOR SOMETHING THAT WE HAVEN'T GOTTEN. AND IN THAT, THEN, I THINK THERE SHOULD BE AN ALLOCATION OF MONEY THEN RETURNED TO THE CITY FOR THE DOLLARS OF THE LAND, OR THE LAND IN 7, THE TWO-TENTHS OF AN ACRE, SHOULD BE INCREASED TO THAT. I MEAN, AS A BUSINESSMAN AND A BUSINESS DECISION, IT WOULD SEEM TO ME IF IT WAS MY MONEY, 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 54 I'LL GUARANTEE YOU I'D BE SITTING THERE TALKING TO YOU REGARDING THAT. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. MR. SCHRIMSHER, THEN I'LL TURN IT OVER TO THE CITY MANAGER. MR. SCHRIMSHER: WELL, THAT'S ONE WAY TO LOOK AT IT. THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THE DRAWINGS ARE WRONG. THEY'VE BEEN WRONG ALL ALONG. BUT FROM THE EARLIEST DRAWINGS THAT WERE EVER DRAWN, THE TRAIL REALIGNMENT, IT WAS NEVER -- IT WAS ALWAYS CONTEMPLATED THAT THE CITY CAN USE THE STATE OF FLORIDA TRAIL RIGHT-OF-WAY AS PART OF THEIR PARK. MR. MCLEMORE: WE DON'T AGREE TO THAT STATEMENT. MAYOR PARTYKA: CITY MANAGER, YOU'LL GET YOUR CHANCE. MR. SCHRIMSHER: I CAN MAKE OUT ON THE DRAWINGS GOING BACK TO MARCH OF '98. MAYOR PARTYKA: AFFORD HIM THE COURTESY OF SPEAKING. YOU HAVE IT. MR. SCHRIMSHER: I CAN GO BACK TO THOSE DRAWINGS FORREST MICHAEL MADE BACK IN MARCH OF '98, AND YOU CAN SEE IT FOR YOURSELF. BUT, ANYWAY, BE THAT AS IT MAY, THAT'S OUR POSITION, AND I'M NOT GOING TO CHANGE IT. . . . 55 1 SECONDLY, YOU'VE DRAWN EDGE DRIVE, YOURSELF, 2 ON THE STATE OF FLORIDA'S TRAIL RIGHT-OF-WAY. AND 3 YOUR ANSWER, I'M SURE, AGAIN, ON THIS ONE-WAY 4 STREET IS THE WAY TO FIX THAT IS JUST TO MOVE IT 5 OVER ON US AND MAKE THAT PARCEL THAT IS 6 INCORRECTLY PORTRAYED, SMALLER THAN IT IS. 7 LIKEWISE, FOR THE TRAIL RIGHT-OF-WAY AS IT 8 CONTINUES NORTH OF MAGNOLIA SQUARE, TO MAKE THAT 9 PARCEL EVEN SMALLER THAN IT IS CONTRARY TO THE WAY, I IT'S PORTRAYED. AND THEN BECAUSE YOU THINK, YOU 10 11 KNOW, YOU'RE ENTITLED TO .15 OF THAT LITTLE 12 TRIANGLE AT THE TOP, I NEED TO ADD THAT IN 13 SOMEWHERE. AND BECAUSE .20 OF MAGNOLIA SQUARE IS 14 IN THE TRAIL, I CAN ADD THAT IN SOMEWHERE. AND 15 DEFINITELY, ONCE AGAIN, I DISAGREE. 16 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. CITY MANAGER. 17 MR. MCLEMORE: THE TWO THINGS I'D LIKE TO SAY 18 IS, NUMBER ONE, IF YOU LOOK AT THE BLACK LINE, 19 WHICH IS EDGE DRIVE, THERE WAS NEVER ANY 20 CONTEMPLATION THAT EDGE DRIVE WOULD BE ON STATE 21 PROPERTY. NEVER. NEVER. 22 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I'M JUST SAYING THAT'S THE 23 WAY IT'S DRAWN. AND THE WAY TO SOLVE IT, YOU 24 KNOW, IN YOUR OPINION, IS TO TAKE IT OUT OF MY 25 HIDE. AND THE WAY TO SOLVE IT, IN MY OPINION, IS . . . 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 56 1 TO BUILD IT LIKE IT'S DRAWN. 2 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THAT'S 3 ONLY LET THE CITY MANAGER SPEAK YOUR PIECE. GO 4 AHEAD. 5 MR. MCLEMORE: AGAIN, IT WAS STATED BY ALL OF 6 US AS THIS WAS SURVEYED OUT THAT A LOT OF THESE 7 LINES WOULD HAVE TO BE ADJUSTED ACCORDING TO WHAT 8 I NEVER, IN THIS CONCEPTUAL PLAN, THE INTENTION THAT! ACTUALLY WAS SHOWN ON THE SURVEYS. BUT THERE WAS 9 10 THAT ROAD WAS GOING TO BE BUILT ON STATE 11 HIGHWAY -- STATE PROPERTY, BECAUSE WE KNOW THEY 12 WON'T ALLOW IT. 13 SO IF YOU WANT -- IF WE'RE IN AGREEMENT AND WE'RE SAYING, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE GOING TO GIVE US .72 ACRES, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE BUYING FOR A NUMBER, AND THEN YOU FIND, THROUGH NO FAULT OF YOUR OWN, YOU CAN'T GIVE THAT ACREAGE BECAUSE YOU DON'T OWN IT, THEN I WOULD THINK, IN A LOGICAL SITUATION, THE OTHER PERSON WOULD SAY, WELL, YOU REDUCE YOUR CONTRIBUTION BY SOME EQUAL AMOUNT. AND THAT'S NOT BEING STATED HERE. AND WHAT I'M SAYING IS I DON'T THINK WE WANT TO DO THAT. WE WANT TO PUT IN THE ROADS THAT WE WERE GOING TO DO, BUT WE WANT THAT ACREAGE. THAT'S WHAT WE AGREED TO PURCHASE WITH THAT. . . . 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 57 1 I DON'T THINK REDUCING THAT ACREAGE AND 2 GIVING YOU BACK $100,000 OR GIVING US BACK 3 $100,000 WORTH OF SEWER LINE, WATER LINE, OR ROAD 4 HELPS THE PROJECT. WHAT HELPS THE PROJECT IS 5 RECONFIGURING THIS, KEEPING IT AT THAT ACREAGE, 6 AND US CONTINUING TO DO, AT THE SAME LEVEL, WHAT 7 WE AGREED TO DO AND WHAT WE SAID WE WOULD DO. 8 IF THAT PROPERTY BECOMES SMALLER, IN MY 9 OPINION, IT HURTS THE CONCEPT. I'M NOT BLAMING 10 i I ISSUE/ WAY. THIS ON ANYBODY. THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE. THE 11 IS HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH IT IN A BUSINESSLIKE MR. SCHRIMSHER: EXACTLY. MR. MCLEMORE: AND AS FAR AS THE ROAD, .~GAIN , i I I i I THE ROAD HAS TO BE BUILT TO ACCOMMODATE THE PROJECT. THE CITY DOES NOT BUILD ROADS FOR DEVELOPERS. WE NEVER HAVE. AS FAR AS I KNOW, THIS IS THE FIRST TIME IT'S HAPPENING. WE DON'T BUILD ROADS FOR DEVELOPERS, BUT WE ARE BUILDING CERTAIN ROADS TO HELP THIS PROJECT. i MR. SCHRIMSHER: CITIES DON'T USUALLY COME INI AND PLAN HOW SOMEONE ELSE CAN DEVELOP THEIR OWN PRIVATE PROPERTY. MR. MCLEMORE: AND POSSIBLY, WE CAN LOOK AT THIS AND SAY WE AGREE TO SIT DOWN AND LOOK AT IT. MAYBE THAT ROAD IS NOT NECESSARY. AND IF THE . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 58 STATE IS WILLING -- AND I'VE MADE THIS KNOWN TO THEMj IF THE STATE IS WILLING TO ALLOW YOU TO PUT THAT ROAD IN THEIR 100 FEET, I CERTAINLY WOULDN'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT. BUT YOUR 7.9 [SIC] ACRES IS WHAT YOU'RE ENTITLED TO BY WHAT YOU AGREED TO GIVE VALUABLE CONSIDERATION FOR, NOT .59 ACRES -- YEAH, .79. I'M SORRY. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I WISH. MR. MCLEMORE: YES. MR. SCHRIMSHER: ANYBODY WHO'S VISITED THE TRAIL HEAD OVER BY THE GREENEWAY KNOW THAT A ROAD WAS BUILT AND PARKING WAS BUILT ON WHAT USED TO BE A RAILROAD SPUR OF WHAT IS TRAIL RIGHT-OF-WAY. BECAUSE IF THE TRAIL HEAD IS GOING TO FUNCTION, PEOPLE IN CARS HAVE GOT TO BE ABLE TO GET TO ITj AT LEAST SOME DO. AND THAT'S EXACTLY THE SAME WAY THIS COULD FUNCTION THERE. AND I DON'T SEE ANY REASON TO OPPOSE IT, WHATSOEVER. IT'S PRECISELY THE SAME AS THE TRAIL HEAD OVER BY THE GREENEWAY. MR. GRINDSTAFF: ISN'T THE BIG PICTURE PLAN HERE LET'S HAVE THE WETLAND PARK AND LET'S HAVE MAGNOLIA PARK THAT HELP THE TOWN CENTER AND, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, PRESERVE AS MUCH DEVELOPABLE LAND FOR THE SCHRIMSHERS AS IS POSSIBLE SO THAT IT . . . 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 59 1 CAN DEVELOP AND ADD TO THE TAX BASE, WHICH THIS 2 THING IS INTENDED TO GENERATE? 3 AND WE'RE JUST FIGHTING OVER, GIVE US MORE, 4 GIVE US MORE, LET US TAKE MORE DEVELOPABLE LAND. 5 YOU'RE REALLY ONLY -- YOU'RE ADDING TO THE PARK 6 LAND, UNTAXABLE LAND, THAT YOU REALLY DON'T NEED 7 TO ADD TO THE PARK LAND TO MAKE THINGS WORK. 8 THIS WHOLE THING -- EVERYONE IS SAYING THE 9 SAME THING, BUT WE'RE SAYING YOU'RE GRABBING LAND, 10 AND YOU'RE SAYING WE'RE TRYING TO KEEP LAND. 11 MR. MCLEMORE: I SAY WE'RE TRYING TO BUY IT. 12 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I ALSO THINK I SHOULD POINT 13 OUT THAT I SUGGESTED THAT WE SHOULD, PERHAPS, 14 CONSIDER REDESIGNING MAGNOLIA SQUARE TO BE IN THAT TRIANGULAR AREA NORTH OF WHERE IT IS NOW, AND PART OF WHERE IT IS NOW, IN A WAY THAT WOULD MAINTAIN THE SIZE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT AND, ACTUALLY, PROBABLY RESULT IN A MORE -- A LARGER USABLE AREA. BECAUSE I KNOW YOU'RE GOING TO USE -- YOU'VE GOT 100 FEET WIDE RIGHT-OF-WAY RUNNING UP THROUGH THERE WITH A SINGLE 10-FOOT-WIDE PIECE OF ASPHALT ON IT. AND YOU-ALL ARE GOING TO PUT THAT OTHER 901 FEET TO SOME USE, WHETHER YOU WANT TO ADMIT IT OR NOT. . . . 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 60 1 MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT'S A WIN/WIN. YOU CAN 2 SUPPOSE IT IS AND FIGURE SOMETHING'S GOING ON 3 THERE. 4 MR. SCHRIMSHER: BUT ANYWAY, THAT PRETTY 5 MUCH, I THINK, STATES IT. THE DRAWING'S WRONG, AND 6 THERE'S MORE THAN ONE WAY TO RESOLVE IT. 7 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. 8 COMMISSIONERS, OUR HOUR IS BASICALLY UP AT THIS 9 POINT IN TIME. 10 MR. MARTINEZ: WE STARTED AT 8:00. 11 MAYOR PARTYKA: IT'S ONE HOUR RIGHT NOW; IS THAT CORRECT? I BELIEVE SO. OKAY. DO YOU WANT TO FINISH THIS LITTLE POINT, AND THEN BREAK IT JUST SO WE DON'T LOSE THE CONTINUITY OF THIS POINT? MR. MARTINEZ: IT'S 9 O'CLOCK. WE'VE GOT TO MOVE ON, MR. MAYOR. MAYOR PARTYKA: I AGREE WITH YOU. I AGREE WITH YOU. OKAY. COMMISSIONER MILLER, YOU'VE GOT YOUR LIGHT ON. MR. MILLER: WELL, I -- NO. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. COMMISSIONER MCLEOD, YOU HAVE YOUR LIGHT ON. MR. MCLEOD: YES, I DO. TAKE MAGNOLIA PARK, . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 . 19 . 20 21 22 23 24 25 61 NUMBER 7, AND WE'RE SAYING THAT, BASICALLY, THE BLACK LINE SHOULD CONTINUE ON THROUGH IT AND ON UP THROUGH THE NEXT PIECE OF PROPERTY, THE PARCEL ABOVE IT, CORRECT? MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE'RE NOT SUGGESTING THAT IT SHOULD DO THAT. MR. MCLEOD: BUT IT DOES THAT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT'S CORRECT. MR. MCLEOD: SO NOW, MY QUESTION, THEN, MR. SCHRIMSHER, WHEN YOU SELL THE PIECE OF PROPERTY THAT IS IN THAT LITTLE TRIANGLE THAT'S LEFT, OR THE LITTLE TRIANGLE, ARE THE PEOPLE GOING TO PAY YOU FOR THE 50 FEET, BASICALLY, BY THE LENGTH OF THAT TRIANGLE, FOR THAT PROPERTY AND EXPECT THAT THEY CAN BUILD ON IT? MR. SCHRIMSHER: NO. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I THINK MR. SCHRIMSHER: IT IS NOT AS IF IT'S A BUILDABLE SITE. BUT IT LOOKS LIKE, YOU KNOW, IF THERE'S ANYONE GETTING AN UNHAPPY SURPRISE RIGHT HERE, BASED ON THE INACCURACY OF THIS DRAWING, IS THAT SITE IS GOING TO BE SO SEVERELY CONSTRAINED BY THE 100-FOOT-WIDE TRAIL RIGHT-OF-WAY THAT'S IN EXISTENCE, THAT, YOU KNOW -- MR. GRINDSTAFF: THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BUY IT, . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 - " - 23 24 25 . . 62 NOR ARE THEY GOING TO EXPECT US TO CONVEY IT TO THEM, BECAUSE THEY'LL KNOW WE DON'T OWN IT. MR. MCLEMORE: AND YOU NEVER HAVE OWNED IT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT'S RIGHT. KIND OF LIKE THE EASTERN 50 FEET OF MAGNOLIA PARK YOU DREW. MR. MCLEOD: WELL, LET'S GO BACK TO LAST WEEK'S DISCUSSION, OR A COUPLE WEEKS AGO I GUESS IT IS NOW. WE HAD AGREED THAT MAGNOLIA PARK WOULD BE .79 ACRES; IS THAT NOT CORRECT? MR. SCHRIMSHER: IT CAN STILL BE AT .79. IT'S JUST THAT PART OF IT WILL BE ON THE TRAIL. MR. MCLEOD: BUT YOU'RE CONVEYING IT TO THE CITY, NOT THE STATE. MR. SCHRIMSHER: I CAN GIVE YOU A DEED FOR ALL OF THAT, AND WE'LL -- MR. MCLEOD: HOW ARE YOU GOING TO CONVEY THE PROPERTY THAT'S NOT OWNED BY YOU? MR. SCHRIMSHER: WELL, IT WON'T BE USABLE. YOU CAN USE +T TO LIGHT A CIGAR. MR. GRINDSTAFF: HE CAN GIVE YOU A QUIT CLAIM DEED. IT WOULD BE A LOT EASIER. MR. MCLEOD: I MIGHT BITE ON THAT ONE. BUT THE SAME THING -- I MEAN, HERE AGAIN, WE DID AGREE THAT YOU WERE CONVEYING TO THE CITY .79 ON THAT PARTICULAR PARCEL. AND NOW THAT -- YOU, . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 63 OF ALL PEOPLE, HAD TO HAVE KNOWN THERE WAS 100-FOOT EASEMENT THROUGH THERE -- RIGHT-OF-WAY, SO IT SHOULD NOT BE A SURPRISE TO YOU. IF ANYBODY'S SURPRISED, IT'S THE PEOPLE SITTING UP HERE ON THE DAIS. SO I'M HAVING TROUBLE SEEING THE ISSUE. I MEAN, I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. THE CITY PROBABLY WILL GET USAGE, VERY LIKELY, OUT OF THE .2. BUT, THEN AGAIN, IT'S NOT PART OF WHAT'S OWNED BY THE CITY FOR THAT PARK. AND IF WE HAVE TO GO TO THE STATE TO GET IT, WE WILL HAVE SOME TIME, AT LEAST, AND LEGAL EXPENSE TO HAVE SOMEBODY UP THERE SITTING DOWN, TALKING TO THEM ABOUT IT. SO MY POSITION WOULD BE I DON'T UNDERSTAND MAGNOLIA PARK BEING A PROBLEM ISSUE AT THIS TIME, BECAUSE LAST TIME WE HAD AGREED TO THE FACT THAT YOU WERE TURNING OVER .79 ACRES OF MAGNOLIA PARK THAT YOU OWNED. MR. GRINDSTAFF: BASED ON YOUR ERRONEOUS DRAWING, SIR. MR. MCLEOD: BASED-- MAYOR PARTYKA: COULD I GET A CLARIFICATION? MR. SCHRIMSHER: I CAN'T AGREE WITH WHAT YOU JUST SAID. I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. I . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 . 14 . 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 64 BELIEVE YOU BELIEVE IT, BUT I CAN'T AGREE WITH IT. MAYOR PARTYKA: LET ME ASK A QUESTION. WAS THERE SOMEWHERE IN THE PAST, DISCUSSION WITH THE CITY, WITH STAFF, WITH ANYBODY, THAT SHOWS THAT THIS 7.9 INCLUDED, ALSO, .2 TENTHS OF AN ACRE OF STATE LAND? MR. SCHRIMSHER: .2 IS MY CALCULATION, TAKING THIS THING RIGHT NOW AND SCALING OFF THE 50 FEET WIDTH BY THE LENGTH AND MULTIPLYING IT -- YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU DIVIDE IT BY 403,560. SO MAYBE IT'S .19 OR .21. MAYOR PARTYKA: WELL, I GUESS WHAT I'M TRYINGI TO SAY, WAS THIS ISSUE EVER BROUGHT UP BEFORE AS PART OF MAGNOLIA PARK THAT THAT WAS GOING TO BE .79 ACRES, WHICH INCLUDED SOMETHING OF THE STATE AND SOMETHING OF YOUR GUYS? MR. SCHRIMSHER: NOT IN A LONG TIME. THE MOST RECENT DISCUSSION WAS THAT -- IT WAS AFTER TWO WEEKS AGO AFTER THIS MEETING WHEN I WAS TALKING TO CHARLES ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE SURVEYORS ARE OUT THERE WORKING AND WE WERE GETTING INTO THE NITTY-GRITTY OF SOME OF THESE THINGS. BECAUSE HE WAS POINTING OUT SOME THINGS THAT WERE INCORRECT ON ONE OF THE DRAWINGS, AND THAT'S WHEN IT CAME . . . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 65 1 UP. IT WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT -- 2 AND BASICALLY, HIS REMARK IS, OF COURSE, THE 3 CITY CAN USE THAT EXCESS PART OF THE TRAIL AS PART 4 OF THE PARK. BUT ALSO, HIS VIEW IS, AND EDGE 5 DRIVE CAN'T BE IN THE TRAIL ALIGNMENT. IT WILL 6 HAVE TO BE MOVED OUT ONTO US. THAT'S HIS 7 OPINION. SO MAYBE HE'S RIGHT ON BOTH OF THEM, 8 WRONG ON BOTH OF THEM, OR RIGHT ON ONE AND WRONG 9 ON THE OTHER. 10 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. CITY MANAGER, IN YOUR 11 DISCUSSIONS OF THE .79 ACREAGE, WAS YOUR 12 IMPRESSION THAT IT WAS TOTALLY 7.9 [SIC] THAT 13 BELONGED TO PART OF SCHRIMSHER AND PART OF THE 14 STATE, OR IT WAS ALWAYS .79 AS PART OF THE 15 SCHRIMSHER? 16 MR. MCLEMORE: MY ABSOLUTE CONVICTION IS THAT 17 WE WERE PURCHASING .79 ACRES FROM SCHRIMSHER. IT 18 HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE STATE AT ALL. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WHY WAS YOUR DRAWING WRONG, THEN? MR. MCLEMORE: WELL, WAIT A MINUTE NOW. MAYOR PARTYKA: WELL, I'M JUST TRYING -- MR. MCLEMORE: YOU ASKED FOR SOME CHANGES ON THE OTHER SIDE BECAUSE OF THE PIECE OF PROPERTY, APPARENTLY, THAT YOU WANTED TO CHANGE BECAUSE YOU . . . 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 66 1 DIDN'T OWN IT ON THE EASTERN SIDE. THESE THINGS 2 ARE GOING TO HAPPEN ALL THROUGH THIS. WE'VE 3 ALWAYS SAID THAT RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING. WE'VE 4 GOT FLEXIBILITY. AFTER THIS THING IS SURVEYED AND 5 DONE, THERE CAN BE SOME CHANGES OF SOME MISTAKES. 6 THE ONLY QUESTION IS: WHAT ARE WE ACQUIRING 7 FROM YOU FOR THINGS OF CONSIDERABLE VALUE? AND 8 I'M TELLING YOU WE CAN AGREE TO REDUCE OUR PRICE. 9 WHAT WE PRICED THIS ON WAS .79 ACRES. BUT I DON'T 10 THINK THAT HELPS ANYBODY. WE NEED TO BUILD A 11 WHOLE ROAD. WE NEED TO PUT THE THINGS IN WE 12 TALKED ABOUT DOING. 13 MR. SCHRIMSHER: YOU'RE GETTING EVERYTHING YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE GOING TO GET. THAT'S MY POINT. THE PARK, YOU CAN HAVE IT JUST EXACTLY WHERE IT'S SHOWN RIGHT HERE. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. MR. MCLEOD: YOU KNOW, THE REAL FACT OF THE MATTER IS THIS IS NOT A SURVEYED DRAWING SHOWING EASEMENTS, SHOWING EVERY PLOT, AND SO FORTH. THIS IS A CONCEPTUAL. AND YOU HAVE HAD QUITE SOME TIME TO HAVE YOUR ENGINEERS LOOK AT IT AND BRING THOSE POINTS UP. BUT BEING THAT IT'S CONCEPTUAL, IT WAS NEVER . . . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 67 1 INTENDED TO UNDERSTAND WHERE 100-FOOT 2 RIGHT-OF-WAYS WERE AND THOSE KIND OF ISSUES. I 3 THINK IF YOU GO DOWN AND CHECK THE OTHER TRAIL, 4 YOU'LL FIND THAT ITS WIDTH'S NOT EXACTLY WHAT IT 5 SHOULD BE EITHER. 6 THE THING THAT IS A KNOWN FACT, THOUGH, IS 7 THAT WE DID NEGOTIATE BASED ON ACREAGE OF BEING 8 .79. THAT WAS A TRUE FACT. AND THIS IS A 9 CONCEPTUAL DRAWING. IT'S NOT A SURVEY. IT'S 10 NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING OTHER THAN, 11 CONCEPTUALLY, THIS IS WHERE IT'S GOING TO BE. 12 HOWEVER, IT COULD CHANGE IN SIZE, BASED ON THE 13 ACREAGE, TO FIT WITHIN THE CONFINES OF THE AREA. 14 I BELIEVE THAT'S WHAT EVERYBODY UP HERE HAS FELT 15 RIGHT ALONG. 16 MR. GRINDSTAFF: IT COULD CHANGE IN SIZE AND 17 ACREAGE? 18 MR. MCLEMORE: NO. NO. THE ACREAGE IS THE FIX. THEREFORE, IF THIS LINE NEEDS TO BE A HAIRLINE FURTHER NORTH OR A HAIRLINE FURTHER SOUTHI I I OR EAST OR WEST, THAT PARK WOULD MOVE AROUND TO TIE DOWN .79 ACRES. THE BOTTOM LINE IS THE ACREAGE. IT'S A CONCEPTUAL DRAWING. IT IS NOT AN ENGINEERING DRAWING. IT'S NOT A DEFINED ELEMENT DRAWING. . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 68 AND THAT'S WHAT ENGINEERING IS NOW DOING AND SURVEYING IS NOW DOING, IS DEFINING THOSE LINES TO THEN PLACE IN THE DEFINED ACREAGE. I DON'T WANT IT MISCONSTRUED THAT THIS WAS ANYTHING DIFFERENT THAN THAT. MR. SCHRIMSHER: ALL THAT TO SAY, THE CONCEPTUAL DRAWING, HOWEVER, WHEN MEASURED -- IF YOU LAY A SCALE ON IT AND YOU ARRIVE AT A NUMBER OF AN ACREAGE, THEN THAT IS TO BE CAST IN STONE. EVERYTHING ELSE IS FLEXIBLE, BUT THAT'S NOT. I DISAGREE WITH THAT. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. MR. MCLEOD: BUT THE PROBLEM IS WE AGREED TO A FIXED ACREAGE. THAT'S WHY WE NEEDED TO HAVE FIXED NUMBERS, THE SAME AS WE'VE AGREED TO PUT IN A ROAD. AND IF THIS ROAD MOVES A LITTLE BIT AND PICKS UP 25 FEET, THE CITY THEN PAYS FOR 25 FEET MORE PIPE, 25 FEET MORE BLACKTOP. ON THE OTHER HAND, IF THE ROAD SHOULD SHIFT, BECOMES 25 FEET SHORTER, THEN WE BENEFIT FROM THAT HAPPENING. BUT WE DID DEFINE THE PARKS. WE TRIED TO DEFINE THOSE ACREAGES, AND I BELIEVE THAT'S WHAT THIS COMMISSION IS LOOKING AT. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. COMMISSIONER BLAKE. AND THEN AFTER COMMISSIONER BLAKE, I THINK WE'LL . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 . . 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 70 DRIVE. MR. BLAKE: NO. INCLUDING EDGE DRIVE. ALL THAT ONLY SHOWS ABOUT 75 FEET. BUT MY POINT IS THE MAPS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN, AND STILL ARE, FOR ILLUSTRATIVE PURPOSES ONLY. THESE ARE NOT SURVEYED ENGINEERED LINES ON HERE. THAT'S WHY, IN THE NEGOTIATION, WE NAILED DOWN EXACT NUMBERS TO THE HUNDREDTH OF AN ACRE IN EACH CASE OF WHAT EACH OF THE PARKS WOULD BEi HOW MUCH WOULD BE CONVEYED TO US. AND IN ONE INSTANCE, EVEN THE MINIMUM SIZE THE ACREAGE OF LAKE TRAIL PARK THAT'S NOT BEING CONVEYED TO THE CITY BUT IS GOING TO THE STATE, BUT TO PRESERVE THE SIZE OF A PARK AREA IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD. SO THAT'S WHERE WE GET DOWN TO THE ACTUAL FIXED NUMBERS. AND THOSE NUMBERS, I BELIEVE AND I THINK YOU UNDERSTAND, ALSO, ARE THE CONTROLLING FACTORS HERE, NOT SOME DRAWINGS THAT'S FOR ILLUSTRATIVE PURPOSES ONLY. MAYOR PARTYKA: WHAT I'D LIKE TO DO IS JUST CALL THIS PORTION OF IT, AND I'LL CONTINUE FROM THIS POINT. BUT IT'S PAST THE TIME LIMIT THAT WE SET FOR OURSELVES. I'M GOING TO TAKE A TEN-MINUTE BREAK RIGHT NOW, SO WE CAN ALL GET ORGANIZED AND GO BACK TO THE NEXT ITEM. OKAY. . . . 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 71 1 MR. BLAKE: MAYOR, THE NEXT ITEM ON THE 2 AGENDA IS THE PUBLIC HEARING ON THIS ITEM. 3 MAYOR PARTYKA: WELL, YEAH. BUT I WOULD 4 ASSUME THAT WE WILL POSTPONE THAT IN CONJUNCTION 5 WITH THIS. 6 MR. BLAKE: IT'S A PUBLIC HEARING, SIR. 7 MAYOR PARTYKA: IT'S STILL IN PUBLIC HEARING. 8 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THE MOTION THAT I 9 THINK I MADE BEFORE INCLUDED MOVING ALL PARTS OF THE AGENDA THAT WENT WITH THIS TOWARD THE END. MAYOR PARTYKA: I AGREE. OKAY. WELL, TEN-MINUTE BREAK. OKAY. (WHEREUPON, A BRIEF RECESS WAS TAKEN.) MR. GARGANESE: ADOPTION OF ORDINANCE 758 IN THE LIMITS OF THE CITY OF WINTER ! SPRINGS, SEMINOLEl i I I I COUNTY, FLORIDA, RELATING TO THE COMPREHENSIVE PLANNING, SETTING FORTH AND ADOPTING THREE LARGE-SCALE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN TEXT AMENDMENTS. IT REFERENCES LG-CPA-2-98, LG-CPA-3-98, AND LG-CPA-4-98, WHICH SHALL AMEND THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN BY ADDING THREE POLICY STATEMENTS RELATING TO LAND CONSERVATION AND RESOURCE PROTECTION, PROVIDING FOR THE REPEAL OF PRIOR INCONSISTENT ORDINANCES AND RESOLUTIONS, PROVIDING FOR SEVERABILITY, PROVIDING FOR INCORPORATION INTO THE . . . 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 72 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 COMPREHENSIVE PLAN, PROVIDING AN EFFECTIVE DATE AND LEGAL STATUS OF THE PLANNED AMENDMENTS. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. THANK YOU. MR. GRIMMS, DO YOU HAVE ANY COMMENT? MR. GRIMMS: YES. FROM A PLANNING STANDPOINT, I WOULD CERTAINLY HOPE THAT YOU AND THE COMMISSION WOULD TAKE ACTION ON THIS, BECAUSE WE HAVE A DEADLINE COMING UP. THIS RELATES TO P2000 GRANT PROGRAM APPLICATION THAT WE'RE DOING. AND IN JUNE, THAT DEADLINE COMES, AND I NEED TO HAVE THIS ADOPTED IN ORDER TO POSITION OURSELVES IN GOOD STEAD WITH THE REVIEW COMMITTEE IN ORDER TO GET THEM THE POINTS. MAYOR PARTYKA: VERY GOOD. COMMISSIONER GENNELL, WOULD YOU WANT ME TO OPEN UP PUBLIC INPUTI FIRST OR YOURSELF? DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: ACTUALLY, I THINK I'M GOING TO BACK OFF FOR A LITTLE BIT. MAYOR PARTYKA: THEN WHAT I'LL DO IS OPEN THIS UP TO PUBLIC INPUT. I HAVE NO REQUEST-TO-SPEAK FORMS HERE. MR. GRINDSTAFF. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THANK YOU, MR. MAYOR. MICHAEL GRINDSTAFF, SHUTTS & BOWEN, 20 NORTH ORANGE AVENUE, ORLANDO, FLORIDA 32801, ON BEHALF 15 . . . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 73 1 OF THE SCHRIMSHER GROUP. WE ARE NOT HERE TONIGHT 2 TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUE SPECIFICALLY. ALTHOUGH IT 3 APPEARS WHEN WE GOT THE -- WE WEREN'T PLANNING ON 4 BEING HERE TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUE, BUT WE GOT A 5 COpy OF THE AGENDA ON FRIDAY AND WE THOUGHT THAT 6 WE MIGHT NEED TO. AND THEN AFTER WE LOOKED AT THE 7 AGENDA OUT FRONT, WE CONFIRMED THAT WE PROBABLY 8 NEEDED TO AT LEAST ASK SOME QUESTIONS, AND MAYBE 9 ANTHONY OR THE CITY MANAGER, PERHAPS TOM, CAN 10 ANSWER SOME FOR US. 11 FIRST OF ,ALL, GENERICALLY, UNTIL SUCH TIME AS 12 A COMPANION AGREEMENT OR SOME SORT OF AGREEMENT 13 THAT'S SATISFACTORY TO THE SCHRIMSHER ORGANIZATION 14 CAN BE REACHED WITH THE CITY, WE VEHEMENTLY OBJECT 15 TO THE TOWN CEKTER CODE AND ANY AMENDMENTS TO THE 16 TOWN CENTER COMPREHENSIVE PLAN THAT MAKE WAY FOR 17 THE TOWN CENTER DISTRICT, BECAUSE -- FOR ALL THE 18 REASONS WE HAVE ENUMERATED MANY, MANY TIMES BEFORE. SPECIFICALLY I THINK THAT -- TOM, YOU CAN HELP ME HERE -- THE CONSERVATION ELEMENT WAS INTENDED TO PROTECT CERTAIN ARCHEOLOGICAL -- MAYBE SOMEONE COULD SUMMARIZE THE PURPOSE OF THIS PARTICULAR AMENDMENT. I WAS TOLD THAT IT WAS INTENDED TO CLEAN UP THE COMP PLAN SO THAT THE .. . 19 20 . 21 22 23 24 25 74 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 COMP PLAN WOULD BE ABLE TO ADDRESS THE ISSUES THAT WOULD ALLOW YOU TO GET CERTAIN POINTS IN YOUR ANALYSIS FOR YOUR GRANT MONIES IN THE P2000. I'M SPECIFICALLY WORRIED ABOUT HOW IS THE HOW ARE CONSERVATION AREAS GOING TO BE DESCRIBED AND IDENTIFIED WITHIN THE TOWN CENTER? WHAT ARE THE ARCHEOLOGICAL CONDITIONS THAT THEY'RE TRYING TO PRESERVE AND PROTECT? ARE WE TALKING ABOUT THE DIGGING UP OF ARTIFACTS? THERE WAS REFERENCE MADE IN ONE OF THE ATTACHMENTS TO THE CODE ABOUT PROTECTING WELLS AND SPRINGS AND UNDERGROUND 14 CONDITIONS. ABOUT. MAYOR PARTYKA: COULD YOU SUMMARIZE? I SIMPLY DON'T KNOW WHAT THIS IS 15 MR. GRIMMS: BASICALLY, IT'S A POLICY STATING IT'S RELATED TO PRESERVATION OF GOVERNMENTALLY SENSITIVE AREAS AND ARCHEOLOGICAL AREAS THAT MAY 16 17 18 BE FOUND WITHIN THE TOWN CENTER. THESE ARE STATEMENTS THAT JUST GO A LITTLE BIT FORWARD AND STRENGTHEN THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN POLICIES THAT ARE, YOU KNOW, INDICATED IN THE COMP PLAN RIGHT NOW. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THE ARCHEOLOGICAL CONDITIONS, ARE THEY INTENDED TO APPLY TO THE ARTESIAN SITUATIONS THAT WERE REFERENCED AND THE . . . 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 75 1 SPRINGS THAT WERE, I THINK, IDENTIFIED AS BEING 2 EAST OF TUSKAWILLA AND NORTH OF 434? IS THAT THE 3 ARCHEOLOGICAL -- I MUST BE MISSING SOMETHING. 4 MR. GRIMMS: THOSE AREAS IN AND AROUND THE 5 TOWN CENTER, THE STATE HAS A POLICY OF 6 PRESERVATION OF ARCHEOLOGICAL AREAS, WHETHER 7 THEY'RE SITES OR ARTIFACTS. AND THIS WAS THE 8 INTENT OF THE P2000 GRANT STAFF IS TO ENCOURAGE 9 LOCAL COMMUNITIES TO SHOW THE PRESERVATION OF -- 10 INTEREST IN PRESERVATION OF THESE SORT OF THINGS. 11 AND THEY FELT THAT OUR COMPREHENSIVE PLAN WAS NOT 12 STRONG ENOUGH IN TERMS OF POLICY STATEMENTS TO 13 SHOW THIS DESIRE. 14 SO WE WORKED WITH THE P2000 GRANT PROGRAM 15 STAFF, AND THEY PRETTY MUCH FASHIONED THESE STATEMENTS. AND THEY SAID THAT WITH THESE STATEMENTS, YOU SHOULD BE WELL POSITIONED FOR POINTS TO GET GRANT MONIES FOR WHAT WE WANT TO I DO .' MR. GRINDSTAFF: WELL, IT SAYS THAT DURING THE YEAR THAT THE CITY SHALL ADOPT A TOWN CENTER DISTRICT PRESERVATION -- OR A CONSERVATION PRESERVATION DISTRICT, I BELIEVE. I MAY BE MISSTATING THE LANGUAGE. ANTHONY, DO YOU HAVE THAT LANGUAGE IN FRONT OF YOU? . . . 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 76 1 MR. GARGANESE: IT SAYS, TOWN CENTER 2 RESOURCES PROTECTION DISTRICT WILL BE CREATED. 3 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WHAT KIND OF STEPS HAVE BEEN 4 TAKEN TO FORM THAT DISTRICT? 5 MR. GRIMMS: NO STEPS AT THIS POINT. 6 MR. GRINDSTAFF: JUST THAT WE'VE GOT TO DO IT 7 DURING THE -- 8 MR. GRIMMS: THAT WE WOULD HAVE TO DO IT 9 AFTER THE POLICY IS ADOPTED. AND WHEN THE GRANT 10 IS APPLIED FOR, THAT WE MAKE A GOOD FAITH EFFORT 11 TO SHOW THAT WE ARE COMMITTED TO DOING THAT. WE DON'T HAVE TO HAVE THAT IN PLACE AT THE TIME OF THE GRANT AWARDj JUST TO INDICATE THAT THAT WOULD BE DONE IF WE WERE TO GET THE GRANT AWARD. MR. GRINDSTAFF: MR. MAYOR, JUST FROM A CONCEPTUAL DISCUSSION -- I KNOW WE'VE TALKED ABOUT CONCEPTS AND LINES AND THINGS, BUT WE'VE ALL TALKED MANY, MANY HOURS ABOUT THE TOWN CENTER AND THE INCREASED DENSITY AND INTENSITY AND THE BENEFITS OF THE TOWN CENTER. WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THE DONUT HOLE, WHICH IS THE WETLAND PARK, THAT WETLAND AREA IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TOWN CENTER. AND PERHAPS THE CITY MANAGER OR SOMEONE COULD HELP ME HERE. IS THERE ANY INTENTION OR . :. . 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 77 1 EXPECTATION OF CLAIMING MORE THAN THE WETLANDS 2 AREA AS SOME SORT OF CONSERVATION AREA WITHIN THE 3 TOWN CENTER? 4 MR. MCLEMORE: I WOULD THINK THAT AS IT 5 RELATES TO ENVIRONMENTAL AREAS THAT NEED 6 PROTECTION, MOST OF THOSE ARE ALREADY IN THESE 7 PUBLIC AREAS THAT WE'RE ACQUIRING. I CAN'T TELL 8 YOU THAT FOR SURE. -I THINK THAT WE EVALUATED ALL 9 THAT AS WE WERE GOING THROUGH THE PROCESS. THEY 10 MAY NOT BE 100 PERCENT CORRECT, BUT I WOULD THINK THE MAJORITY OF THE AREAS ARE ALREADY TAKEN AS 11 12 PART OF THE NEGOTIATIONS WE HAD WITH YOU. 13 I THINK THAT WE'LL REQUIRE AN ARCHEOLOGICAL ANALYSIS THROUGHOUT THE AREA BEFORE THE FINAL LINE 14 15 IS DRAWN. BUT MAYBE YOU CAN HELP HERE, TOM. 16 MR. GRIMMS: THAT IS WHAT THEY'RE LOOKING FOR. MR. MCLEMORE: YEAH, BUT I DON'T KNOW THAT WHEN YOU DRAW THAT FINAL LINE, WE HAVE SOME AUTHORITY OVER THAT OURSELVES. MAYOR PARTYKA: COULD I ASK FOR A CLARIFICATION, PLEASE? IS THIS, IN EFFECT, FOR CONSERVATION AREAS AND ARCHEOLOGICAL AREAS, ISN'T THAT APPLIED TO THE ENTIRE CITY ANYWAY? IF WE FIND ANY OF THOSE AREAS, DON'T WE HAVE TO DO . . . 78 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 SOMETHING? MR. MCLEMORE: YES. MAYOR PARTYKA: SO MY QUESTION IS: IF, IN EFFECT, IT'S IN PLACE, WHY DO WE NEED TO DO THIS SINCE IT'S IN EFFECT THERE? MR. GRIMMS: BECAUSE WHEN THE P2000 PROGRAM STAFF LOOKED AT OUR COMPREHENSIVE PLAN, THEY FELT THAT THE STATEMENTS WERE NOT STRONG ENOUGH. MAYOR PARTYKA: WHY SINGLE OUT THE TOWN CENTER? WHY NOT JUST MAKE THE STRONG STATEMENTS FOR THE ENTIRE CITY? MR. GRIMMS: WELL, BECAUSE IN THE P2000 GRANT PROGRAM APPLICATION, WE SINGLED OUT A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT PROPERTIES WITHIN THE TOWN CENTER FOR THE GRANT MONIES. AND THAT'S WHY WE FOCUSED IT IN THERE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WELL, MAYBE WE CAN ZERO IN ON THE ARCHEOLOGICAL FISHING EXPEDITION. ARE WE TALKING ABOUT ARTIFACTS AND BURIAL GROUNDS AND THAT SORT OF THING OR ARE WE TALKING ABOUT AN ARTESIAN CONDITION? I SEE COMMISSIONER MCLEOD NODDING HIS HEAD. MAYBE HE CAN HELP HERE. MR. MCLEOD: WELL, I'M SURE TOM CAN ANSWER, BUT I THINK WE'RE ACTUALLY LOOKING FOR BONES OR 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 79 BODIES, NOT COWS. WE'RE AFTER HUMAN ARTIFACTS HERE, I THINK IS WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT, WHICH IS PART OF THE MANDATE BY THE STATE OF FLORIDA. MR. GRIMMS: THAT'S CORRECT. MR. MCLEOD: WHICH IS ALSO PARTIALLY IN PLACE AS PART OF THE PLAN, UNDER OUR PRESENT COMP PLAN. ALL THIS LANGUAGE DOES IS ALIGN ITSELF CLOSER TO THE STATE SO THAT IT SATISFIES THEIR NEED. MR. GRIMMS: THAT'S CORRECT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: AND NOT THE ARTESIAN SITUATION REFERENCED IN THE MINUTES OR IN THE ATTACHMENT? MR. MCLEOD: I DON'T THINK WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WATER ARTESIAN WELLS, IF THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO. I KNOW POLICY 1 OF THIS IS TALKING ABOUT ARTIFACTS. I DON'T KNOW IF POLICY 3 IS. TOM SHOULD BE ABLE TO ADDRESS THAT AS FAR AS ARTESIAN WELLS. MR. MCLEMORE: I DON'T THINK WE HAVE ANY INDICATION AT ALL OF ANY ARTESIAN WELLS IN THE WETLAND AREA. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I WOULD JUST LIKE TO CLARIFY THAT WAS THE INTENDED EXPECTATION OF ALL PARTIES. WE DON'T NEED A FISHING EXPEDITIONj YOU KNOW, SOMEONE COMING AROUND AND JUST TRYING TO MAKE . . . 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 80 1 THESE UP IN ORDER TO CLAIM ALL OF THE TOWN CENTER 2 PROPERTY AS SOME SORT OF CONSERVATION AREA, WHICH 3 WOULD BE KIND OF BACKWARDS FOR ALL OF US. I JUST 4 THINK WE NEED TO BE CAREFUL AS WE PASS THESE 5 BROAD-BRUSH COMP PLAN AMENDMENTS. 6 MR. GRIMMS: NO. IT WOULD BE THOSE AREAS 7 THAT WOULD BE OUTLINED BY THE CITY, THAT YOU SAY 8 FOR ARTESIAN WELLS, ENVIRONMENTALLY SENSITIVE 9 AREAS. IT WOULD NOT BE A BLANKET OVER THE WHOLE 10 OF THE TOWN CENTER. 11 MR. MARTINEZ: MAY I READ SOMETHING FOR YOU? 12 MR. GRINDSTAFF: PLEASE, SIR. MR. MARTINEZ: THE PLANNING AND ZONING BOARD I PART OF THIS PACKAGE, UNDER ~ RESPONSE TO A 13 14 15 QUESTION BY DCA, I GUESS IT SAYS HERE THAT THE 16 TOWN CENTER PROJECT INCLUDES A PROPOSAL TO PRESERVE THE AREAS SURROUNDING THE SPRINGS IN A NATURAL STATE. THE SPRINGS LOCATED ON THE EAST SIDE OF TUSKAWILLA ROAD, THE NORTH SIDE OF STATE ROAD 434, IS THE BASIS FROM WHENCE THE CITY DERIVES ITS NAME. THE CITY SEEKS TO PRESERVE THIS RARE, NATURAL RESOURCE IN ITS NATURAL STATE FOR THE APPRECIATION AND UNDERSTANDING BY THE PUBLIC. THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO. I HEARD YOU TALKING ABOUT SPRINGS. . . . 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 81 1 MR. GRINDSTAFF: YES, SIR. I THINK THERE WAS 2 ANOTHER LINE THERE. 3 BUT THE POINT IS, I DON'T KNOW HOW FAR THAT 4 GOES, WHAT THE EXPECTATION IS. YOU'RE GOING TO SURROUND THAT WITH A HUGE RADIUS IN ORDER TO 5 6 PRESERVE WHATEVER'S IN THE WETLAND -- I MEAN, 7 THOSE ARE THE CONCERNS WE HAVE ON THIS COMP PLAN 8 AMENDMENT WITH UNSPECIFIED TERMS, SUCH AS WE'RE 9 GOING TO PASS A DISTRICT IN THE FUTURE, LEAVES US SKEPTICAL AS TO HOW FAR THAT WILL GO. 10 11 WE ARE, AND YOU SHOULD BE, I THINK, VERY 12 CONCERNED ABOUT THAT BEING A BROAD-BRUSHED TAKING, 13 FOR LACK OF A BETTER WORD. EXCUSE THE CHOICE. I 14 CAN'T THINK OF ONE BETTER THAN THAT. 15 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. HOLD THAT THOUGHT. COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. MR. MCLEOD: I'D LIKE TO KNOW WHERE THE COMMISSIONER JUST READ THAT FROM. MR. MARTINEZ: IT'S A PLANNING AND ZONING BOARD, LOCAL PLANNING AGENCY AGENDA ITEM DISCUSSING THE PROPOSED LARGE SCALE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN. MR. MCLEOD: IT'S ONE OF THE ATTACHMENTS. MR. GRIMMS: ATTACHMENT C. MR. MCLEOD: ATTACHMENT C. . . . 21 22 23 24 25 82 1 OKAY. THE NEXT THING IS, WHERE IS THAT 2 ACTUALLY LOCATED? 3 MR. GRIMMS: IT'S ON THE SECOND PAGE OF THE 4 P&Z REPORT, ABOUT THE MIDDLE, RIGHT AT THE -- 5 MR. MARTINEZ: FOURTH PAGE. 6 MR. MCLEOD: THE TOWN CENTER RESPONSE OF -- 7 AT THE TOP, UNDER 12. 8 MR. GRIMMS: RESPONSE. RIGHT AFTER RESPONSE 9 THERE. 10 MR. MARTINEZ: THE TOWN CENTER PROJECT, BLAH, 11 BLAH, BLAH. 12 MR. MCLEOD: OKAY. SPRINGS LOCATED AT THE 13 EAST SIDE OF TUSKAWILLA ROAD, NORTH OF STATE 14 ROAD 15 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE WOULD APPRECIATE GETTING 16 A COPY OF THAT. 17 MR. MCLEOD: YOU CAN HAVE MINE. 18 BUT MY QUESTION ON THIS, CITY MANAGER, IS 19 THAT SPRING PRESENTLY IN WETLANDS PARK? 20 MR. MCLEMORE: YES. BUT BASED ON THE WORK THAT WAS DONE BY ENVIRONMENTALISTS WHO WERE GOING THROUGH ALL THIS INITIALLY, WE TRIED TO INCLUDE ALL OF THAT AREA IN THE AREA THAT WE ARE TAKING NOW. MR. MCLEOD: OKAY. BUT WE'RE NOT TAKING . . . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 83 1 ANYTHING HERE. IT IS IN THE PARK -- WETLANDS PARK 2 PART OF THE 23 ACRES, CORRECT? 3 MR. MCLEMORE: YES. 4 MR. MCLEOD: DOES STAFF AGREE TO THAT? AND 5 DOES THE CITY MANAGER AGREE TO THAT? 6 MR. GRIMMS: YES. 7 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE JUST LEARNED THAT, SIR. 8 THANK YOU VERY MUCH. 9 MR. MCLEOD: WELL, OKAY. SO THERE'S NO 10 INTENTION, THEN, TO GO OUTSIDE TO EXTEND THE 11 BOUNDARIES BEYOND WETLANDS PARK. I THINK THAT'S 12 THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION. 13 , ' MR. GRINDSTAFF: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, 14 COMMISSIONER. THAT'S RIGHT. 15 ARE WE TALKING ABOUT MORE THAN THE BOUNDARIES 16 OF THE YET-TO-BE-DEFINED WETLAND PARK? 17 MR. MCLEOD: NO. THAT'S WHY WE HAVE TO HAVE 18 23.36 ACRES. MR. MCLEMORE: WELL, CERTAINLY FROM THE PERSPECTIVE -- MR. GRINDSTAFF: WHAT WAS THAT? WHAT WAS THAT? HOLD IT. MR. MARTINEZ: THE 23.36. THAT'S WHAT WE NEEDED. MR. MCLEOD: THAT'S WHY WE NEED -- . . . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 84 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 MR. GRINDSTAFF: MR. SCHRIMSHER LEFT THE BUILDING LIKE ELVIS, BY THE WAY. MR. MCLEMORE: I THINK THE ISSUE BECOMES IN ORDER TO -- IF YOU GO IN THESE AREAS THAT ARE NOT IN WETLAND PARK AND YOU FIND AN OLD INDIAN MOUND OR SOMETHING. MR. MCLEOD: THAT'S A DIFFERENT ISSUE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT'S A DIFFERENT STORY. WE'RE GOVERNED BY LOTS OF DIFFERENT REGULATIONS THERE, TOO. MR. MCLEMORE: AS FAR AS THE WETLAND ISSUES, I THINK WE'VE GOT THEM NAILED. AND I THINK WE CAN AGREE TO THAT. MR. MCLEOD: I THINK IT'S A QUESTION HERE, AS I UNDERSTOOD IT, MAYOR, IS WHERE IS THIS SPRING? MR. GRINDSTAFF: WHERE IS THE SPRING AND HOW FAR IS THIS CONSERVATION DISTRICT GOING TO GO? MR. MCLEOD: TO THE SPRING. MR. GRINDSTAFF: TO THE WETLAND, THE YET-TO-BE-DEFINED WETLAND PARK? MR. MCLEOD: CONSERVATION, I UNDERSTAND, TO THE SPRING IS WETLAND PARKj IS THAT CORRECT? MR. GRIMMS: YES, THAT IS MY UNDERSTANDING. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. MAYOR PARTYKA: THANK YOU. WE HAVE THAT 14 15 16 17 18 . . 15 16 17 18 19 . 20 21 22 23 24 25 85 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 CLARIFIED. ANYONE ELSE, JUST IN CASE? OKAY. I'LL CLOSE THE PUBLIC INPUT PORTION OF THIS. I'LL BE LOOKING FOR A MOTION TO ADOPT. OH, THE CITY ATTORNEY HAS SOMETHING TO SAY FIRST. MR. MARTINEZ: ME, TOO. MR. GARGANESE: JUST ONE QUICK NOTE. THERE'S SOME REFERENCE THROUGHOUT THE ORDINANCE OF JANUARY 10, 2000, THAT HAS TO BE CHANGED TO MAY 8, 2000. MAyqR PARTYKA: SAY THAT AGAIN. MR. GARGANESE: THERE WERE SEVERAL REFERENCES IN THE ORDINANCE TO JANUARY 10, 2000. THOSE HAVE TO BE CHANGED TO MAY 8, 2000. MAYOR PARTYKA: NOW, DOES THAT POSE A PROBLEM? MR. GARGANESE: NONE AT ALL. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. MR. MARTINEZ: WELL, BASED ON MY READINGS ON THIS ITEM, INCLUDING THE ATTACHMENT C, WE GO BACK TWO YEARS WHEN WE WERE DISCUSSING THE RESERVES, AND WE HAD A VERY HEATED DEBATE. AND I REQUESTED THEN THAT THE CITY CODE BE AMENDED AS FAR AS THE 100-YEAR FLOODPLAIN ZONE WAS RELATED. AND THIS AMENDMENT OR REVISION OF THE CODE WAS PROMISED. AND BECAUSE OF MAYBE THIS ITEM, THE TOWN 14 . . . 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 86 1 CENTER AND THE TUSKAWILLA BEAUTIFICATION DISTRICT 2 AND SO ON AND SO FORTH, THIS APPARENTLY WENT BY 3 THE WAYSIDE. AND TWO YEARS LATER, I STILL DON'T 4 SEE A REVISED CODE DEALING WITH THE IDD-YEAR 5 FLOODPLAIN ZONE AND ITS EFFECT ON DEVELOPING. 6 ANOTHER ISSUE IS WHEN THE PARKSTONE PROJECT 7 CAME UP, WE ALSO HAD A VERY LENGTHY DISCUSSION 8 HERE. I BROUGHT PEOPLE HERE FROM THE ST. JOHN'S 9 WATER MANAGEMENT DISTRICT AND I BROUGHT PEOPLE 10 HERE FROM THE ORANGE COUNTY COMMISSION STAFF. 11 THAT RELATED TO US THAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING FOR 12 EVERY WAY POSSIBLE TO PRESERVE LAKE JESSUP FROM 13 BECOMING INFESTED WITH POLLUTANTS AND THE SUCH I THROUGH THE RUN OF WATER AND ET CETERA, ET CETERA,! 14 15 I I I I THATI I I I I ET CETERA. 16 EVEN ST. JOHN'S WATER MANAGEMENT TOLD 17 EVERYONE HERE, THE STAFF AND THIS COMMISSION, THEY COULD DRAFT MORE RESTRICTIVE LAWS COVERING LAKE JESSUP AND ITS SHORES THAN THEY HAD. THAT WAS A FACT. AND WE WERE ALSO PROMISED, THEN, THAT WE WOULD BE GETTING SOMETHING THAT WOULD DEAL WITH THE SHORES OF LAKE JESSUP ALONG WINTER SPRINGS. THAT HASN'T BEEN FORTHCOMING. I SEE HERE UNDER RESPONSE FROM THE CITY TO . . . 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 87 1 THE OBJECTIONS FROM DCA ON THE COMP PLAN AMENDMENT 2 SUBMITTED TO THEM THAT YOU'RE SAYING HERE THAT, 3 YES, THIS WOULD BE DONE. AND IT HAS TO DO WITH 4 POLICY 3, POLICY 1, AND ALL OF THIS DEALS WITH 5 SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT 6 HERE TONIGHT. IT DEALS WITH PRESERVATION AREAS. 7 IT DEALS WITH WETLANDS. IT DEALS WITH LAKE 8 JESSUP. AND YOU'RE SAYING, YES, WE'RE GOING TO DO 9 THIS, AND THIS IS A FACT. 10 NOW I'M ASKING STAFF WHO IS HERE NOW, DOES 11 THIS MEAN BECAUSE I HEARD YOU SAY SOMETHING 12 BEFORE -- DOES THIS MEAN THAT YOU WILL BE 13 PREPARING SOMETHING SUBSEQUENT TO THE APPROVAL OF 14 THIS COMP PLAN AMENDMENT OF THE DCA OR DOES THIS 15 MEAN THAT YOU HAVE SOMETHING IN PLACE HERE THAT WEI I 16 HAVE NEVER SEEN? MR. GRIMMS: WE WILL DEVELOP SOMETHING SUBSEQUENT TO. MR. MARTINEZ: THIS APPROVAL? MR. GRIMMS: SUBSEQUENT TO THE APPROVAL, YES. MR. MARTINEZ: AND IF YOU DON'T, THIS APPROVAL WILL GO BACK TO FIRST BASE? MR. GRIMMS: AND IF WE DON'T AND WE GET THE GRANT MONIES, I DON'T KNOW. MR. MARTINEZ: I WANT TO KNOW THIS. I MEAN, . . . 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 88 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 THAT'S ALL I WANT TO KNOW. MR. GRIMMS: IF THIS GETS PASSED, WE WILL BE DEVELOPING THEM. MR. MARTINEZ: OKAY. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. COMMISSIONER GENNELL. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YES. MR. MAYOR, IS A MOTION IN ORDER? MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. CITY MANAGER, DO YOU WANT TO SAY SOMETHING OR NOT? MR. MCLEMORE: WELL, I THINK, ALSO, WE NEED TO INFORM YOU THAT YOU HAVE ENTERED INTO A CONTRACT, OR GIVEN US AUTHORITY TO ENTER INTO A CONTRACT WITH A CONSULTANT WHO'S DOING THIS RIGHT NOW. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. MR. MCLEMORE: NOW, ANYTHING SPECIFIC TO THE TOWN CENTER THAT'S NOT IN THIS CURRENT CONTRACT WE; WOULD NEED TO ADD TO THAT. BUT THAT PROCESS IS WELL ON ITS WAY AT THIS POINT IN TIME. MR. MARTINEZ: THANK YOU. MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: MR. MAYOR, I MOVE FOR APPROVAL OF ORDINANCE 758. MAYOR PARTYKA: IS THERE A SECOND? . .' . 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 89 1 MR. MILLER: I'LL SECOND. 2 MAYOR PARTYKA: ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION? 3 MR. BLAKE: YES, SIR. IS THAT AMENDING ALL 4 THE DATES THAT WERE DISCUSSED IN THE ORDINANCE TO 5 MAY 8? 6 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YES. 7 MR. BLAKE: THANK YOU. 8 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. CALL THE VOTE, PLEASE. 9 THE CLERK: DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MILLER. MR. MILLER: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. MR. MCLEOD: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. 10 11 12 13 14 MR. MARTINEZ: I HAVE TO SAY AYE AFTER THE OFFER MADE TO ME BEFORE. AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER BLAKE. MR. BLAKE: AYE. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. THANK YOU. MR. MILLER: MR. MAYOR, A QUESTION. THE CITY MANAGER BROUGHT UP A POINT. I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE I UNDERSTOOD. DO WE NEED TO GIVE THE STAFF GUIDANCE TO INCLUDE THE ISSUES THAT COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ . . . 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 90 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 BROUGHT UP WITH REGARD TO THE ISSUE THAT HE RAISED TWO YEARS AGO? WHICH I RECALL THAT COMING UP WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT PARKS TONE AND THE PEOPLE BEING ABLE TO PUT BOAT DOCKS RIGHT DOWN TO THE LAKE. I THINK OUR INTENT AT THAT POINT WAS TO PREVENT THAT FROM HAPPENING OR MAKE IT MUCH MORE RESTRICTIVE IN THE FUTURE SO THAT IF THERE WERE OTHER AREAS OF THE LAKE FRONT THAT GOT DEVELOPED, YOU WOULDN'T. HAVE A BOAT DOCK EVERY 5 FEET OR EVERY 50 OR 100 FEET INTO THE WATER. THE ST. JOHN'S MANAGEMENT PEOPLE DID TELL US THAT WE COULD MAKE IT MORE RESTRICTIVE, BUT NOT LESS RESTRICTIVE. SO THE QUESTION I HAVE THEN IS: THIS CONSULTANT THAT WE HIRED, IS THE CITY MANAGER INFERRING THAT HE NEEDS OUR APPROVAL TO ADDRESS BEING MORE RESTRICTIVE -- COMING UP WITH LANGUAGE WHICH IS MORE RESTRICTIVE, EVEN THOUGH IT DOESN'T APPLY TO THE TOWN CENTER? MR. MCLEMORE: WELL, MY ANSWER TO THAT IS: I THINK WE'VE GOT IT COVERED. WE'LL REVIEW THE SCOPE OF SERVICES WITH THE CONTRACTOR. AND IF WE THINK WE NEED SOME ADDITIONAL AUTHORITY TO BROADEN OUT THAT SCOPE TO DO THIS, WE'LL COME BACK TO YOU. MR. MILLER: ALL RIGHT. FINE. 16 ~. . . 21 22 23 24 25 91 1 MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL RIGHT. THAT ISSUE IS 2 DONE. YOU HAD A QUESTION, COMMISSIONER GENNELL. 3 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YES. ARE WE BEGINNING 4 NOW WITH THE REGULAR AGENDA? 5 MAYOR PARTYKA: WE ARE AT THE REGULAR AGENDA 6 NOW, AND THEN WE'LL START AT B. 7 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I WAS GOING TO SUGGEST 8 THAT WE MOVE FORWARD ANYTHING ON THIS AGENDA THAT 9 HAS PEOPLE IN THE AUDIENCE WAITING TO SPEAK, TO 10 ADDRESS IT. 11 MR. MARTINEZ: THIS IS ONE OF THEM. 12 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WELL, T~ERE'S ALSO THE 13 ADD-ONS AND SOME OTHER THINGS THAT SHOULD BE 14 BROUGHT FORWARD. 15 MAYOR PARTYKA: WE'RE GOING TO DO THAT. 16 WE'RE GOING TO PUT ADD-ONS FIRST BECAUSE OF THE 17 PEOPLE HERE FROM THE (INAUDIBLE) FIELD FOUNDATION. 18 MR. MCLEOD: AND RESPONSES WITH THIS THING. 19 I'M LOOKING ON PAGE 2 OF THE RESPONSE UNDER POLICY 20 3, OBJECTIVE C, AT THE BOTTOM. I THINK IT WOULD BE PROPER FOR THE CITY MANAGER TO PUT IN WRITING THE ANSWERS TO THE BOTTOM PARAGRAPH OF THAT PAGE AND ENTAILING THE UPPER PARAGRAPH, THAT WHAT ITS INTENT IS IS THE WETLAND PARK AREA ONLY. . . . 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 92 1 AND LET ME READ INTO THE RECORD WHAT THIS 2 THING SAYS. IT SAYS, liTHE PROPOSAL IS TO REMOVE 3 THE AREA AROUND THE ARTESIAN SPRINGS AND WETLANDS 4 RELATED TO HOWELL CREEK FOR POTENTIAL DEVELOPMENT 5 AND PRESERVE THE AREAS IN THEIR NATURAL STATE. 6 THE AREA ENCOMPASSING THE SPRINGS WOULD BE 7 DESIGNATED CONSERVATION. THE PROPERTY OWNER HAS 8 EXPRESSED AN INTEREST IN DEVELOPING THE AREA FOR 9 RETAIL/COMMERCIAL PURPOSES. THIS CITY DESIRES TO 10 FIND SOME WAY TO PURCHASE THESE LANDS. II 11 THAT STATEMENT ON THE END, I THINK, HELPS TIE 12 IT TO WETLAND PARK. BUT I THINK THAT WE SHOULD PRECISELY SAY THAT -- AT LEAST TO THE SCHRIMSHERS,I THAT THE INTENT OF THIS IS THAT AND THAT ONLY, SO I I THIS COMMISSION IS NOT SITTING HERE, THIS MAYOR Isl I I I I 13 14 15 THAT LATER, THIS DOES NOT BECOME AN ISSUE WHEN 16 NOT SITTING HERE, AND THIS CITY MANAGER IS NOT SITTING HERE. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. MR. MCLEOD: IF THAT IS THE INTENT UNDERSTOOD BY THIS COMMISSION, THEN I THINK IT SHOULD GO IN WRITING AND BE PRESENTED THAT WAY, SO IT'S NOT A FUTURE ISSUE. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. THAT'S VERBALIZES THE INTENT. I MEAN, FROM A LEGAL STANDPOINT, IS THAT . . . 21 22 23 24 25 93 1 A MORE APPROPRIATE, SPECIFIC WAY OF DOING EXACTLY 2 WHAT I THINK WE WERE TALKING ABOUT? IT PUTS SOME 3 DEFINITION TO IT. 4 MR. GARGANESE: IF THAT'S THE CONSENSUS OF 5 THE COMMISSION. 6 MR. MCLEOD: THAT'S MY -- THAT'S WHAT I WOULD 7 LIKE TO HAVE -- 8 MR. GARGANESE: IF THAT'S WHAT COMMISSIONER 9 MCLEOD STATED IT SHOULD BE. YOU MAY WANT TO PUT 10 THAT IN WRITING, HAVE THE MINUTES REFLECT THAT 11 INTENT, SO THERE'S A HISTORICAL RECORD. 12 MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONERS, DO YOU AGREE 13 WITH THAT POSITION? COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ? 14 I I MR. MARTINEZ: DON'T FORGET THAT THESE THINGSI I 15 ARE MANDATED BY THE STATE, AND THE GRANT DEPENDS 16 ON WHETHER WE ARE ABLE TO SUSTAIN THE STATE'S 17 POSITION AS TO PRESERVATION AREAS, WETLANDS, AND 18 SO ON AND SO FORTH. 19 MAYOR PARTYKA: YEAH. BUT I THINK THE ISSUE 20 ON THIS ONE IS TO ACTUALLY NAME IT THE WETLANDS PARK AREA, WHICH IS WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT VERY SPECIFIC. IS THAT CORRECT, COMMISSIONER MCLEOD? MR. MCLEOD: NO. MR. MARTINEZ: THAT'S NOT WHAT HE SAID. . . . 94 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MCLEOD: WHAT THIS THING SAYS IS THAT IT TAKES IN HOWELL CREEK. HOWELL CREEK GOES OUTSIDE OF THE 23 ACRES, CORRECT? MR. BLAKE: IT'S NOT ATTACHED AT ALL. IT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE. MR. MARTINEZ: NOT EVEN CLOSE. MR. MCLEOD: DOESN'T THIS THING MR. BLAKE: HOWELL CREEK IS A SEPARATE, UNRELATED WET AREA THAT'S NOT RELATED TO -- MR. MCLEOD: IN THIS -- LET ME GET BACK TO IT. MR. GRIMMS: OTHER THAN THE WETLAND PARK, SPRING WATER DOES FEED INTO IT. MR. MCLEOD: PARDON? THE WATER COMES OUT OF THERE. MR. GRIMMS: MR. MCLEOD: IT DOES FEED INTO HOWELL CREEK. YES, IT DOES. MR. GRIMMS: BUT HOWELL CREEK ISN'T A SEPARATELY DEFINED AREA. MR. MCLEOD: FINE. BUT I THINK THE INTENT HERE BY THEIR ATTORNEY WAS, IF THE WATER STARTS IN THE WETLANDS, FLOWS ACROSS THEIR PROPERTY INTO HOWELL CREEK, HOW MUCH OF THIS BECOMES PRESERVED AREA BY THIS CITY? NOW, WHAT I JUST HEARD NOW IS THE . . . 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 95 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 COMMISSIONER SAID, WELL, THE STATE COMES BACK, AND IT GOES RIGHT BACK TO THEIR CONCERN. THE STATE COMES BACK NOW AND SAYS, THE WATER HAPPENS TO FLOW DOWN THROUGH THIS AREA. THEREFORE, IT BECOMES A PROTECTED AREA. AND I UNDERSTAND AND THAT'S ALL FINE. AND I UNDERSTAND WE'VE ALREADY DESIGNATED PART OF THAT. BUT, AGAIN, OURS NEEDS TO SPELL OUT THAT IT'S THE 23 ACRES. WE JUST ALL SAT HERE AND AGREED TO THAT. OKAY. MR. MCLEMORE: I THINK YOUR DILEMMA IS THAT HOWELL CREEK ITSELF IS ALREADY A PROTECTED AREA. MR. MCLEOD: I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT. BUT HOW DOES THE WATER GET FROM THE ARTESIAN WELL TO HOWELL CREEK? AND DOES THAT WHOLE AREA BECOME SOMETHING LATER THAT WE COME BACK AND SAY, WAIT A MINUTE. THE STATE, IN ITS FINDING AND GIVING A GRANT, WE THEN MUST TAKE THIS. AND I THINK THAT 15 IS THE CONCERN OF THE SCHRIMSHERS. NOW, RIGHT NOW, WE HAVE IT AS A PARK AREA. THAT'S A GREEN PARK AREA, RIGHT, ACROSS THERE WHERE THAT FLOW ISj IS THAT NOT CORRECT? MR. GRIMMS: RIGHT. MR. MCLEOD: AND OFF THE PROPERTY. AND I THINK WE SHOULD DEFINE OURSELVES SO THAT IS . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 96 EXACTLY WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. I MEAN, THAT WAS PART OF THE REASON THEY HAD NO OBJECTION TO US APPROVING IT. AND THEREFORE, I THINK WE SHOULD SAY THAT'S WHAT IT IS. MR. MCLEMORE: I DON'T THINK I HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH THAT. MR. MCLEOD: I WOULD SUGGEST THIS: THAT THIS PORTION OF THE MINUTES REFLECTING THIS THEN SHOULD BE TYPED OUT. MAYOR PARTYKA: SPECIFIED. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: VERBATIM. MAYOR PARTYKA: SPECIFIED. I THINK WHAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR IS SPECIFICS VERSUS WHAT THE INTENT IS. BUT, I MEAN, IN WRITING -- VERBALLY AND IN WRITING. SO AGAIN, DOES THAT POSE A PROBLEM IN TERMS OF DOING THAT? MR. GARGANESE: NO. MAYOR PARTYKA: BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE WANT. FROM THIS COMMISSION, IS THAT WHAT EVERYBODY WANTS HERE? COMMISSIONER MILLER? MR. MILLER: I HAVE NO PROBLEM. MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ? COMMISSIONER GENNELL? MR. MARTINEZ: HOW CAN WE GO BACK TO AN ITEM . . . 10 97 1 THAT'S ALREADY BEEN VOTED? 2 MAYOR PARTYKA: WELL, HE JUST BROUGHT IT UP 3 FROM A CLARIFICATION STANDPOINT. IT'S BEEN VOTED 4 ALREADY, BUT HE'S JUST TAKING IT AND TRYING TO, 5 FOR THE SAKE OF PUBLIC FAIRNESS, MAKE IT CLEAR. 6 HE HAS THAT RIGHT TO DO THAT. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. 7 MR. GARGANESE: FINE. 8 MAYOR PARTYKA: FINE. 9 MR. GARGANESE: THE RECORD WILL SO REFLECT. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. 11 (WHEREUPON, A RECESS WAS TAKEN UNTIL 11:25 P.M.) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MAYOR PARTYKA: IS THE REST OF THE COMMISSION1 I I OUT THERE? CAN YOU GRAB THEM? OKAY. LET'S BRINGI THE COMMISSION MEETING BACK TO ORDER. LET THE RECORD SHOW THAT WE HAVE THREE COMMISSIONERS HERE AT THIS POINT, AND IT'S 11:30. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I DON'T THINK THE LOBBY'S TURNED ON. MR. MCLEOD: YES, IT IS. MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL RIGHT. CITY MANAGER. MR. MCLEMORE: OKAY. MAYOR PARTYKA: JUST SO YOU KNOW, I HAVE SCHEDULED RIGHT NOW -- WE CUT IT OFF AFTER COMMISSIONER BLAKE, AND HE HAD THE FLOOR AT THE TIME WE TOOK THE BREAK. AND COMMISSIONER GENNELL . '-- . . 21 22 23 24 25 98 1 WAS READY TO SPEAK. SO I'LL JUST LEAVE IT WITH 2 YOU, COMMISSIONER BLAKE, IF YOU WANT TO 3 MR. BLAKE: NO. I'M DONE. 4 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. THEN I'LL TURN IT OVER 5 TO YOU, COMMISSIONER GENNELL. YOU WERE SCHEDULED 6 TO SPEAK AFTER COMMISSIONER BLAKE. 7 MR. MARTINEZ: MAY I MAKE A REQUEST BEFORE WE 8 PROCEED? CAN WE REPEAT THE SAME PROCEDURE WHEN WE 9 STARTED THIS ISSUE BEFORE AND RESTRICT THIS TO ONE, 10 HOUR. IF WE DON'T FINISH, WELL, SO BE IT. 11 BECAUSE WE HAVE DONE PART OF THIS WORK, AND I 12 DON'T THINK WE HAVE THAT MUCH TO GO. 13 I THINK THAT IF WE -- THE SCHRIMSHERS HAVE :::'4 ALREADY PLACED THEIR OBJECTIONS ON THE RECORD FOR 15 SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WE HAVE SAID THAT SHOULD 16 BE. LET'S FINISH UP WHATEVER'S LEFT OVER AND THEN LET IT FLY, WHICHEVER WAY IT GOES. I I MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. COMMISSIONERS, ARE YOU! ALL IN AGREEMENT THAT THIS SHOULD GO FOR ONE MORE I 17 18 19 20 HOUR ON THIS TOPIC? COMMISSIONER MILLER SAYS YES. COMMISSIONER BLAKE? MR. BLAKE: SURE. MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ, THAT'S, I HIS POSITION. . . . 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 =3 24 25 99 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 COMMISSIONER GENNELL. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YES. I HAD A MOTION EARLIER TO EXTEND FOR AN HOUR, SO WE NEEDED TO DO ANOTHER MOTION. MR. MILLER: CAN'T WE DO IT RIGHT NOW AND JUST MAKE IT THAT WE WILL CONVENE THIS ISSUE AT 12:30? MAYOR PARTYKA: I THINK THAT THE CONSENSUS WOULD BE OKAY AT THIS POINT. IF EVERYBODY AGREES, THAT'S OKAY. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YES. MR. MARTINEZ: YES. MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL RIGHT. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WELL, WE DON'T KNOW IF COMMISSIONER MCLEOD AGREES. MR. MCLEOD: I AGREE. MR. MARTINEZ: IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL RIGHT. ONE HOUR. OKAY. COMMISSIONER GENNELL, DO YOU WISH TO SPEAK ANYTHING ON THE ISSUES? DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: MR. MAYOR, I FORGOT WHERE I WAS AT, SO I'M JUST GOING TO HAVE TO WAIT FOR MY TURN IN LINE AGAIN. MAYOR PARTYKA: WELL, THERE'S NO OTHER LIGHTS 14 ON. . . . 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 100 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THEN I WOULD BE -- MR. MARTINEZ: WE WERE ON MAGNOLIA PARK, .59 VERSUS .79. MR. MCLEMORE: DIDN'T WE DISPOSE OF THAT ONE? MR. MARTINEZ: NO. AT THE VERY END, COMMISSIONER BLAKE HAD SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT IT. HE WAS ON THE FLOOR. HE HAD THE FLOOR. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I CAN TURN MY LIGHT ON LATER IF I NEED TO TALK. THAT'S FINE. MAYOR PARTYKA: WELL, THE SIMPLE FACT OF THE MATTER, I'LL TURN IT OVER TO THE SCHRIMSHERS. I THINK WE'VE HAD COMMISSIONER MCLEOD SPEAK, COMMISSIONER MILLER SPEAK, COMMISSIONER BLAKE SPEAK ON THAT ISSUE IN TERMS OF THEIR THOUGHTS. MR. MARTINEZ: THEY ALREADY ALSO PLACED THEIR OBJECTION ON THE ACREAGE. MAYOR PARTYKA: SO IT WOULD SEEM TO ME, THEN, AS A GROUP HERE, WE HAVE TO COME TO SOME KIND OF CONCLUSION IN TERMS OF WHAT YOUR POSITION IS AS A GROUP. AND THE TWO OPTIONS ARE REAL SIMPLE. ONE IS EITHER THE .79 ACRES IS WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE GIVEN TO THE CITY REGARDLESS OF MR. MCLEMORE: CONFIGURATION. MAYOR PARTYKA: -- THE CONFIGURATION. OR THE OTHER ONE IS .59 ACRES AND EXCLUDES .2 14 . . . 22 23 24 25 101 1 ACRES FROM THE SCHRIMSHERS THAT THEY'RE LOOKING TO 2 GIVE ADDITIONAL PROPERTY. BUT I'M SAYING, RIGHT 3 NOW, IT'S EITHER THEY GIVE UP .79 OR .59. 4 COMMISSIONER BLAKE. 5 MR. BLAKE: THANK YOU, MAYOR. THE POINT I 6 WAS MAKING AT THE END WHEN WE QUIT WAS THAT THE 7 MAP HERETOFORE HAS ALWAYS BEEN FOR ILLUSTRATIVE 8 PURPOSES. ONLY ONE OF THE PURPOSES OF OUR 9 NEGOTIATIONS THAT WE HELD, COMMISSIONER MCLEOD AND MYSELF WITH STAFF AND THE SCHRIMSHER GROUP, WAS TO! NAIL DOWN SOME OF THOSE NUMBERS, AND INDEED, THAT'S WHAT WE DIDj SPECIFICALLY ON PARK ACR~AGE. 10 11 12 13 I WOULD ASK THE QUESTION OF THE SCHRIMSHER 14 GROUP OF WHAT THEY INTERPRET PARK 8 TO BE IN TERMS I I OF ACREAGE, AND WHETHER OR NOT THAT NUMBER THAT WEI I PREVIOUSLY HAD AGREED UPON IS GOING TO SUFFER THE I SAME CONSEQUENCE, IN YOUR EYES, AS MAGNOLIA. 15 16 17 18 MR. SCHRIMSHER: THERE'S A COUPLE PARTS TO 19 THE ANSWER. PARK 8 IS ALMOST ENTIRELY COVERED BY 20 THE STATE'S RIGHT-OF-WAY RIGHT NOW. THE LOWER 21 LEFT CORNER OF IT IS OUT. PARK 8 IS NOT ADDRESSED IN OUR AGREEMENT. MR. MARTINEZ: NO. MR. SCHRIMSHER: THE POINT OF PARK 8, ACCORDING TO MR. VICTOR DOVER, IS THAT HE WANTS . . . 21 22 23 24 25 102 1 PEOPLE DRIVING OUT THE EXIT ROAD FROM THE HIGH 2 SCHOOL TO BE LOOKING AT GREENERY INSTEAD OF A 3 BUILDING OR A DRIVEWAY. 4 I THINK IT'S ALMOST A -- TO ME, TO BE 5 CONSISTENT WITH EVERYTHING ELSE I'VE SAID 6 TONIGHT IT'S A FAIRLY MOOT POINT. 7 IF YOU ALL ARE CONSISTENT IN SAYING, I WOULD 8 ANTICIPATE YOUR VIEW BEING THAT YOU WOULD EXPECT 9 ME TO ADD .15 ACRES TO SOMETHING SOMEWHERE. 10 ANYWAY, I WASN'T SURE -- TWO OTHER COMMENTS I 11 WOULD SAY IS I'M NOT SURE A NINE-WAY DISCUSSION IS 12 THE BEST WAY TO HANDLE SOME OF THESE THINGS. AS 13 YOU ALL KNOW, CITY MANAGER HAD A -- I THINK A 14 BELATED HONEYMOON. THE CITY ATTORNEY HAD AN 15 OUT-OF-THE-COUNTRY EXPERIENCE. 16 MR. MCLEMORE: OUT-OF-BODY. 17 MR. GARGANESE: NO. 18 MR. SCHRIMSHER: SOME OF THESE THINGS 19 MR. MCLEOD: THE CITY MANAGER HAD THE 20 HONEYMOON. MR. SCHRIMSHER: I'LL RESTRAIN MYSELF THERE. LET'S SEE. THEY BOTH HAD NOTES FROM THEIR PARENTS. SO, YOU KNOW, WE'VE HAD VERY -- WE'VE HAD ALMOST ZERO TIME WITH MR. GARGANESE AND A LITTLE . . . 103 1 BIT WITH RON. I THINK SOME OF THESE THINGS COULD 2 HAVE BEEN LESS EMOTIONALLY DISCUSSED AND HOPEFULLY 3 WORKED OUT DURING THE PRECEDING TWO WEEKS IF WE 4 HAD HAD A CHANCE TO MEET. 5 FINALLY, I GUESS THE ONLY OTHER COMMENT I'LL 6 MAKE IS -- I THINK CHARLES KNOWS THIS IS TRUE, 7 TOO -- THAT I THOUGHT THIS DRAWING WAS DRAWN THIS 8 WAY BECAUSE SOME OF THIS RIGHT-OF-WAY NORTH OF 9 MAGNOLIA PARK WAS GOING TO BE VACATED AND THAT I 10 WAS GOING TO BE EXPECTED TO COME UP WITH 11 TWO-FOR-ONE FOR THAT PART, ALSO. WHICH WOULD BE 12 APPROPRIATE, BECAUSE THAT PARCEL WOULD BENEFIT, 13 BECAUSE IT WOULD BE DEEPER AND MORE DEVELOPABLE. 14 BUT IT IS NOT AS MR. CARRINGTON MADE CLEAR 15 TO ME IN THE SCOPE OF WHAT THE SURVEYORS AND 16 APPRAISERS ARE DOING, THEIR WORK ENDS AT THE 17 SOUTHERN BOUNDARY OF WETLAND PARK. AND THEREFORE, 18 THIS DRAWING'S INCORRECT AS FAR AS -- LIKE WE'VE 19 ALREADY TALKED ABOUT. 20 SO I THINK WE HAVE A DIFFERENCE OF OPINION 21 ABOUT HOW TO RESOLVE IT, AS I'VE MENTIONED IN A 22 LETTER I SENT, I THINK JUST TODAY, PROBABLY. ONE 23 WAY IS TO REVISIT THE DESIGN OF MAGNOLIA SQUARE 24 ALONG THE LINES OF SOMETHING RON SUGGESTED -- I 25 THINK IT WAS RON -- A LONG TIME AGO. AND I WAS . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 104 OPPOSED TO IT WHEN I THOUGHT THAT THE SITE WAS GOING TO BE THE SIZE AND SHAPE AS SHOWN ON THIS DRAWING, BECAUSE I RECOGNIZED THAT PARCEL NORTH OF MAGNOLIA SQUARE TO BE A POTENTIALLY DESIRABLE SITE FOR DEVELOPMENT. BUT IF IT'S GOING TO CONTINUE TO HAVE A 100-FOOT-WIDE TRAIL RIGHT ACROSS IT, IT'S GETTING ON THE VERGE OF BEING SO IMPACTED, WHY BOTHER. I CAN STILL -- I THINK I STILL HAVE THE FREEDOM TO ASK THE OFFICE OF GREENWAYS AND TRAILS TO VACATE THAT AS A SEPARATE -- EITHER AS PART OF WHAT WE'RE DOING NOW, OR, BECAUSE OF THE TIME LIMITS, AS A SEPARATE MATTER. AND THEN, IN THAT CASE, THAT WOULD STILL BE A DESIRABLE SITE. OR WE CAN INVESTIGATE, AND I DON'T WANT TO DO IT HERE WITH NINE PEOPLE. WE CAN, IF YOU INSIST, REDESIGN MAGNOLIA SQUARE. IT WOULD SLIDE UP A LITTLE. IT WOULD PROBABLY, I THINK -- BECAUSE, AGAIN, I'M WORKING WITH THE SAME DRAWINGS. BUT I TRIED TO LOOK AT MORE ACCURATE ONES -- THAT ITS SOUTHERN EDGE WOULD BE MORE IN LINE WITH THE BOULEVARD. IN OTHER WORDS, IT WOULD SLIDE UP A LITTLE. BUT THEN IT WOULD JUST TAKE UP THAT TRIANGVLAR AREA ALL THE WAY UP. AND I THINK IT WOULD COME CLOSER TO BEING ABLE TO, ONCE AGAIN, ,. . . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 105 1 HAVE AN AMPHITHEATER-TYPE SETUP AT THE NORTH END, 2 YOU KNOW. 3 AND IN EFFECT, THAT WOULD PROBABLY BE VERY 4 SIMILAR TO WHAT YOU HAVE ON PARK AVENUE WHERE YOU 5 HAVE THAT LINEAR PARK FOR A STRETCH ALONG ONE SIDE 6 OF THE ROAD AND THE BUSINESSES FRONTING ON THE 7 OPPOSITE SIDE. IT'S A SUGGESTION. IT'S A WAY 8 OF 9 MR. GRINDSTAFF: TO LOOK AT IT. 10 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I THINK IT'S A MORE 11 EFFICIENT USE, BECAUSE WHAT WE'RE DOING -- 12 ESPECIALLY IF YOU INSIST ON ME GIVING YOU .79, AND 13 YOU HAVE TO FATTEN MAGNOLIA SQUARE, WE'RE CUTTING 14 INTO, YOU KNOW, ALL OF WHAT'S SUPPOSED TO BE THIS 15 PRIME PROPERTY THERE EVERYONE TALKS ABOUT, 16 INCLUDING WHAT USED TO BE MENTIONED REGULARLY AS A 17 POSSIBLE FUTURE SITE FOR A NEW CITY HALL, IS GETTING -- YOU KNOW, EVERYTHING'S GETTING WHITTLED! 18 DOWN. IT SEEMS LIKE ONE OBJECTIVE IS STARTING TO HURT ALL THE OTHERS. SO THAT'S ABOUT ALL I CAN THINK TO SAY AT THE MOMENT. MAYOR PARTYKA: MAY I GET SOME CLARIFICATION HERE THAT'S BEEN MENTIONED? MR. SCHRIMSHER, MR. GRINDSTAFF, 'YOU MENTIONED NOW TWICE THERE'S A . . . 106 1 LETTER THAT WAS SENT OUT TODAY. WHAT LETTER? I 2 MEAN, I KEEP LOOKING THROUGH THIS. A LETTER SENT 3 TODAY 4 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I SENT A LETTER. I COPIED 5 IT TO VICTOR AND TO MICKEY, AND THEN I SENT IT TO 6 THE CITYj TO RON, ANTHONY, AND CHARLES. YOU KNOW, 7 JUST FAXED IT. THERE WASN'T TIME TO MAIL. BUT 8 IT'S EXPLAINING A LOT OF WHAT I'VE SAID TONIGHT 9 BUT ABOUT HOW I FEEL IT'S LEGITIMATE FOR EDGE 10 DRIVE TO BE IN THE RIGHT-OF-WAY IF YOU LOOK AT 11 MAYOR PARTYKA: THAT'S FINE. NO. WHAT I'M 12 SAYING IS I DON'T HAVE A DOCUMENT IN FRONT OF ME 13 TO READ IT. 14 MR. SCHRIMSHER: THAT'S WHY I BASICALLY HAVE 15 TOLD YOU EVERYTHING IT SAYS. 16 MR. GRINDSTAFF: IS ANYBODY HERE OPPOSED TO 17 US MEETING WITH STAFF, RON IN PARTICULAR, ANTHONY, 18 PERHAPS WITH VICTOR OVER THE PHONE, IN AN ATTEMPT 19 TO NAIL DOWN THESE ACREAGE ISSUES, AS WELL AS LOOK 20 AT THE SURVEY THAT HOPEFULLY IS SUBSTANTIALLY 21 COMPLETE TOMORROW AND MAYBE LOOK AT ANOTHER 22 CONFIGURATION FOR WETLAND PARK -- NOT WETLAND 23 PARK -- WELL, WETLAND PARK AND MAGNOLIA PARK TO 24 NAIL THESE ISSUES DOWN? 25 MR. MARTINEZ: AGAIN? . . . 107 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 MR. GRINDSTAFF: AGAIN. AGAIN. ACKNOWLEDGE THAT'S AGAIN. MR. BLAKE: THE PROBLEM WITH THAT, MR. GRINDSTAFF, FROM MY STANDPOINT, IS THAT I TOOK A DAY. I KNOW COMMISSIONER MCLEOD TOOK A DAY. MR. GRINDSTAFF: AND WE'VE TAKEN A FEW DAYS OURSELVES. MR. BLAKE: THOSE ARE BILLABLE HOURS TO YOU, THOUGH. MR. GRINDSTAFF: SOME OF THEM ARE. I MR. SCHRIMSHER: NOT FOR ME. MR. MCLEOD: THEY WILL BE. MR. SCHRIMSHER: THEY WILL BE? I HOPE YOU'RE RIGHT. MR. BLAKE: AND QUITE FRANKLY, I TELL YOU THIS HONESTLY, AND I BELIEVE COMMISSIONER MCLEOD IS OF THE SAME OPINION, THESE ARE ISSUES THAT I 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BELIEVE WE'VE NAILED DOWN ONCE ALREADY. BELIEVE THAT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I THINK TO THE EXTENT YOU BELIEVE THAT IS BASED ON MISTAKEN FACTS. MR. BLAKE: WELL, AGAIN, I KNOW YOU WANT TO GO BACK TO THE MAP, BUT I WILL REITERATE WHAT I'VE ALREADY SAIDj AND THAT IS THAT THE MAPS, AS YOU HAVE REQUESTED, ARE FOR ILLUSTRATIVE PURPOSES I REALLY -. . . 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 108 1 ONLY. 2 AND THAT IS WHY WE WENT DOWN ON A PIECE OF 3 PAPER AND WROTE DOWN THE NUMBERS IN ACREAGE, ALL 4 THE WAY DOWN TO A HUNDREDTH OF AN ACRE, WHAT EACH 5 OF THESE SPOTS WERE TO BE IN THE CONVEYANCE FROM 6 THE SCHRIMSHER GROUP TO THE CITY AS COMPENSATION 7 FOR THE AMENITIES THAT THE CITY WAS GOING TO 8 PROVIDE; MAIN STREET, SPINE ROAD, UTILITIES. AND 9 IT REALLY -- 10 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE JUST DISAGREE ON THAT 11 POINT. 12 MR. BLAKE: WELL, I UNDERSTAND. LOOK, I 13 I Ii I I , I I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR POSITION IS. I REALLY DO. 14 THINK I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR POSITION IS. 15 MR. GRINDSTAFF: AS DO WE UNDERSTAND YOURS. 16 MR. BLAKE: IN TERMS OF THIS RIGHT-OF-WAY ISSUE AND WHERE IT LOCATES, IF YOU ~EE IT, AND IT LOOKS LIKE IT'S THAT SIZE, REGARDLESS OF WHERE THEI I I BOUNDARY LINE MIGHT BE, IT STILL LOOKS LIKE IT'S THAT SIZE AND MAY EVEN BE USED AS THAT SIZE. I BELIEVE THIS IS YOUR ARGUMENT, SPECIFICALLY WITH MAGNOLIA. FRANKLY, I WOULD BE WILLING TO TO GET TO THE END OF THIS, I WOULD BE WILLING TO DISCUSS MAYBE, LIKE, A 22-ACRE NUMBER ON WETLAND PARK, u. . . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 109 1 WHICH GIVES YOU AN ACRE AND A QUARTER, AN ACRE ANDI 2 A THIRD TO PLAY WITH IF YOU CAN FIND THAT AREA 3 THERE -- IT'S UP TO THE SURVEYS AND EVERYTHING 4 ELSE TO FIND IT AND GIVE US THE .79 OR THE .8 ON 5 MAGNOLIA PARK. 6 TO HAVE IT MOVED -- YOU KNOW, I'M NOT A 7 DESIGNER. I DIDN'T, YOU KNOW, CONCEPTUALIZE THIS 8 WHOLE PLAN. BUT I'LL TELL YOU THAT HAVING 9 MAGNOLIA WHERE IT IS -- MAGNOLIA PARK WHERE IT IS 10 IN THE CENTER MEANS SOMETHING TO ME. AND 11 ESTHETICALLY, I THINK IT HAS SOME VALUE TO KEEP IT 12 THERE. 13 AND THAT PARK -- IF YOU'LL RECALL, WHEN THAT 14 PARK FIRST STARTED, WE STARTED WITH A NUMBER 15 SOMEWHERE AROUND -- I THINK IT WAS AN ACRE AND A 16 QUARTER, IF MEMORY SERVES ME CORRECT. AND AGAIN, 17 THAT ALL CAME OUT OF THE AIR, AND IT WAS ONE OF 18 THESE, WELL, IF YOU'LL LOOK AT THIS MAP AND, WELL, WE FIGURE IT'S ABOUT THAT. BUT IT'S NOT. WE UNDERSTAND THAT. WHEN WE GOT DOWN TO REAL NUMBERS, WE GOT DOWN TO .79 ACRES. AND THAT IS AN IMPORTANT, IMPORTANT .79 ACRES THAT WE'RE RECEIVING FROM YOU. IT'S THE MOST VALUABLE PROPERTY YOU'RE GIVING TO US. AND FOR US TO LOSE MORE THAN 25 PERCENT OF IT, OR 20 PERCENT . . . 13 14 15 16 17 IS 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 110 1 OF IT -- DO THE MATH HERE -- YEAH, MORE THAN 25 2 PERCENT OF IT IS A HUGE CUT IN VALUE THAT WE 3 RECEIVE. THAT'S THE MAIN REASON, I THINK, THIS 4 COMMISSION FEELS SO STRONGLY ABOUT THAT PARTICULAR 5 PARK. 6 NOW, IS THERE AN ACRE OR ACRE AND A QUARTER 7 OR A THIRD THAT YOU CAN RECOVER OUT OF WETLAND 8 PARK? I DON'T KNOW. THE SURVEY WILL TELL IT. I 9 THINK THERE'S SOMETHING THERE. OTHERWISE, YOU 10 WOULDN'T BE SO ADAMANT ABOUT HAVING THAT 11 APPROXIMATE NUMBER IN THERE AND USING THE 12 BOUNDARIES TO GET IN THERE. BUT I'LL TELL YOU WHAT. I THINK WE NEED TO HAVE A NUMBER AND I THINK WE NEED TO HAVE A FIXED NUMBER THAT IS THE MINIMUM THAT WE WILL RECEIVE IN TERMS OF AN ACRE. BECAUSE WE'VE GOT TO SHOW WHAT WE'RE GETTING IN RETURN FOR THE EXPENDITURES THAT WE'RE MAKING ON YOUR BEHALF ON THE OTHER SIDE. AND YES, OTHERS WILL BENEFIT FROM THOSE EXPENDITURES, BUT NO ONE WILL BENEFIT MORE THAN THE SCHRIMSHER GROUP. I DON'T KNOW HOW THE REST OF THE COMMISSION FEELS ABOUT THIS AS AN OFFER. I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S ACCEPTABLE TO THEM OR NOT. BUT FROM MY STANDPOINT, I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING WE SHOULD . . 19 20 21 22 23 24 . 25 111 1 TALK ABOUT. MR. SCHRIMSHER: I DID WANT TO ALSO SAY, IN 2 3 THE DAY THAT YOU TOOK OFF AND MR. MCLEOD TOOK OFF, WE TALKED VERY SPECIFICALLY ABOUT ACREAGES ON ALL THE SMALL NEIGHBORHOOD SQUARES WHEN WE DID THE DEAL AND LAKE TRAIL PARK AND ALL THAT. MR. BLAKE: WHEN WE GAVE YOU YOUR TRIANGLE PARK THERE THAT YOU DESPERATELY WANTED. 4 5 6 7 S 9 MR. GRINDSTAFF: YOU PICKED THAT .S5 ACRE 10 11 LAKE TRAIL. MR. SCHRIMSHER: SO I KNOW WE SPECIFICALLY 12 GOT DOWN TO HUNDREDTHS OF AN ACRE ON CERTAIN THINGS, BUT THERE ARE OTHERS WE DIDN'T. I ALSO JUST WANT TO POINT OUT, JUST WHILE YOU'RE LOOKING AT THIS DRAWING, THAT THE SURVEYORS, WHEN THEY GOT OUT THERE, FOUND OUT THAT THE ALIGNMENT OF THE BOUNDARY BETWEEN MR. KINGSBURY AND BLOOMBERG WAS ASKEW AND THAT THAT NO LONGER LOOKS LIKE THAT. AND OF COURSE, YOU'RE HANDLING THOSE ARRANGEMENTS WITH MR. BLOOMBERG DIFFERENTLY, SOME KIND OF GRANT OR WHATEVER. 13 14 15 16 17 IS BUT, IN OTHER WORDS, I THINK BOTH THE ACREAGE AND THE SHAPE OF THE THING CHANGED JUST BY NECESSITY AS THE INFORMATION CAME IN. SO WHEN YOU . . . 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 112 1 LOOK AT THIS -- AND MAYBE THAT'S PART OF THE 2 REASON YOU THINK THAT THE EXACT POSITION OF 3 MAGNOLIA SQUARE IS SO ESSENTIAL. 4 I THINK THAT THAT'S ALSO SOMETHING VICTOR 5 MIGHT WANT TO LOOK AT, IS HOW THERE'S -- IN OTRER 6 WORDS, THERE'S A CROOK IN THAT ROAD NOW, AND 7 HOW -- YOU KNOW, THE CONSIDERATION OF A DIFFERENT 8 DESIGN FOR MAGNOLIA PARK MIGHT ALSO HELP IN THE 9 DESIGN OF THE BOULEVARD BETWEEN BLOOMBERG AND 10 KINGSBURY. THAT'S JUST A THOUGHT. BUT THAT HAS 11 ALSO CHANGED. THERE'S NEW INFORMATION, ANYWAY. 12 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. LET ME TURN IT OVER TO 13 A COUPLE OTHER PEOPLE HERE. CITY MANAGER, DO YOU 14 WANT TO SAY SOMETHING NOW? I'VE GOT OTHER PEOPLE 15 THAT WANT TO SAY SOMETHING. 16 MR. MCLEMORE: WELL, I WOULD JUST -- LET ME 17 HOLD UNTIL WE HEAR FROM THE OTHER COMMISSIONERS. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. COMMISSIONER MILLER. MR. MILLER: COMMISSIONER BLAKE AND COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ ALREADY COVERED MOST OF THE POINTS I WANTED TO BRING UP. BUT I ALSO BELIEVE THAT MAGNOLIA SQUARE IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE KEY ELEMENTS IN THIS. AND THAT ALL THESE NEGOTIATIONS THAT HAVE TOOK PLACE, WE GOT DOWN TO ALL THESE NUMBERS WE'VE BEEN LOOKING AT FOR ABOUT A MONTH, . . . 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 113 1 MAYBE TWO MONTHS, WITH REGARD TO THE ACREAGE IN 2 EACH OF THE PARKS, I FEEL ACCURATELY REPRESENTS, 3 AT LEAST IN TERMS OF A NUMBER, WHAT IS YOUR 4 CONTRIBUTION. 5 THEN WHAT WE'RE GOING TO -- WHAT THE CITY 6 WILL ENDEAVOR TO DO WILL REPRESENT THE CITY'S 7 OFFSET FOR THAT VALUE. SO THE FACT THAT MAGNOLIA 8 SQUARE NOW TURNS OUT TO BE SOMETHING A LITTLE BIT 9 LESS THAN THE WAY IT APPEARS ON THIS GRAPHIC 10 DEPICTION HERE IS NOT REALLY A CONCERN TO ME. I 11 THINK IT'S STILL .79 ACRES. IT'S JUST IT MAY HAVE 12 TO BE FATTENED A LITTLE BIT, AND THAT'S PROBABLY 13 HOW IT OUGHT TO BE RESOLVED. THIS. I I SUPPORT JUST LEAVING IT THE WAY IT IS AT I IF THE LINES HAVE TO BE MOVED A LITTLE BIT,I I , THAT'S MY VIEW ON .79 . THEN SO BE IT. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. THANK YOU. COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. MR. MCLEOD: YOUR PARK 8 UP THERE, YOU KNOW THE FACT THAT THAT THING HAS THE 100-FOOT WIDTH THROUGH THERE AND THE FACT THAT THAT IS PROBABLY OWNED AS PART OF THE TRAIL, IT'S ALSO CALLED A TRAIL ENTRANCE. SO THAT PARK REALLY, I DON'T THINK, IS AFFECTED. I DON'T THINK THAT PARK HAS ANYTHING THAT WE CAN PUT INTO IT. AND WHAT WE DO . . . 114 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PUT INTO IT WOULD BE PROBABLY THINGS TO DO WITH BEING THE PARK ENTRANCE. AND I AGREE WITH MICHAEL THAT THAT WAS TALKED ABOUT TO BE OPEN AREA, MORE OR LESS, SO THAT AS YOU DROVE DOWN THROUGH THERE, YOU KIND OF OVERLOOKED THAT LITTLE PIECE -- POINT AS YOU LOOKED OFF INTO THE WETLANDS AREA, WETLANDS PARK. SO I THINK THE .15 ON THAT PARTICULAR PARK, I DON'T THINK, REALLY HAS A BIG SIGNIFICANCE TO US. THE FACT THAT THE 50-FOOT MOOR RUNS UP INTO IT, MOST OF IT'S CUT AWAY. I WOULD TELL YOU THAT I WOULDN'T BE INTERESTED IN WORRYING ABOUT NEGOTIATING ANYTHING FURTHER OUT OF THAT. I THINK THAT WHATEVER'S DONE THERE WOULD BE ALLOWED, PROBABLY, BY THE TRAILS PEOPLE. AND I THINK WITH THAT FEAR FROM US BEING GONE, I STILL HAVE THE CONCERN FOR THE .2, OR WHATEVER IT IS, BEING TAKEN OFF FROM MAGNOLIA PARK. BUT I WOULD THINK THAT IT WOULD BE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY, PROBABLY, TO GET WITH THE TRAILS PEOPLE TO FIND OUT ON THAT OTHER PARCEL OF YOURS OF WHAT YOU CAN NEGOTIATE IN THE REST -- BECAUSE ORIGINALLY, YOU SAID YOU FELT YOU WERE GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE A TWO-TO-ONE ON THAT ONE -- THAT WHAT . . . 23 115 1 THEY'RE WILLING TO DO TO ALLOW YOU TO HAVE THAT 2 WHOLE PARCEL. I DON'T KNOW THAT THAT'S A POINT 3 WITH THE CITY. I THINK THAT'S A POINT WITH THE 4 TRAILS PEOPLE. 5 FROM THAT, I WOULD THEN SAY THAT -- BACK TO 6 THE SAME PLACE I WAS. I'M STILL INTERESTED IN THE 7 SIZE OF THE WETLANDS STAYING WHERE IT IS AND THE S SIZE OF THE MAGNOLIA PARK STAYING THE ACREAGE IT 9 IS AS WE HAVE BEEN LED TO BELIEVE AND EVERYBODY 10 HAS FELT RIGHT ALONG OF WHAT IT IS. 11 AND IF, BETWEEN NOW AND THE TIME THAT PARK IS 12 TO BE DEVELOPED, THAT YOU'RE ABLE TO GET WITH THE 13 TRAILS PEOPLE AND THEY'RE ABLE TO DEDICATE THAT 14 BACK TO YOU TO ALLOW YOU TO NEGOTIATE THAT WITH 15 THE CITY WHEN IT IS YOURS, THEN I WOULD SAY THAT 16 I WOULD BE A BENEFIT OF YOURS IF THAT'S SUCH A PRIME! PIECE OF PROPERTY. AND THE SAME THING THEN STATES I THAT IT'S A .79 ACREAGE THAT YOU'RE CONVEYING TO ! THE CITY. YOU GO DO YOUR HOMEWORK WITH THE TRAILSI I PEOPLE TO GET THAT AND DON'T PUT THE BURDEN ON THE/ CITY. 17 IS 19 20 21 22 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I'M NOT PUTTING THE BURDEN ON THE CITY. I BELIEVE IT WOULD BE TWO-FOR-ONE 24 REQUIRED, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THEY REQUIRED FOR 25 EVERY OTHER ACRE OR FRACTION OF AN ACRE THAT WE'VE . . . 20 21 22 23 24 25 116 1 ASKED THEM TO VACATE. THEY'VE LOOKED FOR 2 I TWO-FOR-ONE IN EVERY CASE AS TO WHAT THEY REQUIRE. 3 BUT I JUST THINK IT WOULD BE IN EVERYONE'S 4 BEST INTEREST TO AT LEAST ASK -- TO AT LEAST 5 EXPLORE THE POSSIBILITY AND ASK VICTOR'S OPINION 6 ABOUT WHETHER HE THINKS THE OTHER DESIGN OF 7 MAGNOLIA PARK MIGHT BE AS GOOD OR EVEN BETTER FOR 8 ALL THE REASONS I SAID AND MAYBE SOME I HAVEN'T 9 THOUGHT OF. AND THAT'S TO THE CITY'S BENEFIT TO 10 FIND THAT OUT NOW BEFORE IT'S CAST IN STONE. 11 MR. MCLEOD: WE HAD HAD THAT DISCUSSION 12 BEFORE THAT WE TALKED ABOUT EXTENDING MAGNOLIA 13 I DIDN'T THINK THAT WAS IN OUR BEST INTEREST! I I i I PARK UP INTO THAT TRIANGLE. MY UNDERSTANDING WAS 14 THAT HE 15 AS WE SAT THERE AND NEGOTIATED THAT PARTICULAR 16 DAY. 17 MR. GRINDSTAFF: ACTUALLY, I THINK HE MADE 18 THAT COMMENT HERE ONE NIGHT, NOT AT THAT MEETING. 19 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I DON'T THINK WE TALKED ABOUT IT THE DAY YOU AND MR. BLAKE WERE THERE. BUT I REMEMBER OPPOSING IT, BECAUSE I ANTICIPATED, LIKE I SAY, THE PARCEL BEING CONFIGURED AS IS SHOWN HERE, NOT AS IT ACTUALLY TURNS OUT TO BE. SO IT'S JUST A -- IT CAN GO EITHER WAY. AND I CAN SEE THAT HE MIGHT, AS YOUR CONSULTANT, ADVISE: . . . 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 117 1 OH, NO, DON'T FOOL WITH IT. LEAVE IT JUST THE WAY 2 IT IS. THAT'S, BY FAR, PREFERABLE. OR TO SAY, 3 HERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE IT BETTER, GO FOR 4 IT. SO IF YOU DON'T ASK THE QUESTION, YOU WON'T 5 FIND OUT. 6 MR. MCLEOD: I'M NOT SURE WE'RE AT THE POINT 7 OF GOING BACK TO TRYING TO DEAL WITH OUR 8 CONSULTANT. I THINK WE NEED TO DEAL WITH THE 9 ISSUES IN FRONT OF US AND RESOLVE THESE THINGS AS 10 THEY LIE, IF WE CAN RESOLVE THESE. 11 AND THEN AFTERWARDS, IF YOU AND THE CITY 12 MANAGER AND MR. DOVER FIND IT A BETTER DEAL TO 13 MOVE IT, THEN YOU BRING IT BACK TO THE COMMISSION 14 AND THE COMMISSION THEN HAS ITS OPTIONS TO EITHER 15 AGREE TO MOVE IT OR NOT AGREE TO MOVE IT. 16 I DON'T THINK THAT EVERYTHING STOPS THIS 17 EVENING TO GO TO MR. DOVER. MY OPINION IS WE HAVE I HARD, DEFINED NUMBERS, AND THAT'S REALLY THE ISSUEI HERE AND THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO RESOLVE. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. MR. MCLEOD: LIKE I SAID, NUMBER 8 DOESN'T CONCERN ME TOO MUCH. MR. BLAKE, I WOULD BE OPPOSED TO GIVING UP PART OF WETLANDS PARK OVER THERE. I THINK THAT, IN GOOD FAITH, THE CITY HAS NEGOTIATED OUT THESE . . . 22 23 24 25 118 1 THINGS AT THIS POINT AND I THINK WE'RE DOWN TO THE 2 POINT WE NEED TO FIND OUT IF WE'RE EITHER GOING 3 FORWARD OR THIS THING GOES IN THE TRASH CAN, 4 WHATEVER IT HAS TO DO. BUT IT'S TIME THAT WE NEED 5 TO DECIDE WHERE WE'RE ALL GOING. 6 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. COMMISSIONER GENNELL. 7 THANK YOU. 8 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I WANT YOU TO KNOW 9 THIS ISN'T REAL EASY, BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE I'VE GOT 10 TWO GOOD SUGGESTIONS. BUT BASICALLY, I DON'T WANT 11 TO GO BACK TO THE CONSULTANT. I DON'T THINK IT'S 12 IN OUR BEST INTEREST TO MOVE THAT PARK FROM ITS 13 CENTRAL LOCATION OR CHANGE ITS CONFIGURATION 14 SIGNIFICANTLY. 15 I'M LOATHE TO GIVE UP ANY OF THE WETLANDS 16 PARK, BUT I THINK COMMISSIONER BLAKE MADE A VIABLE 17 OFFER TO BRING THIS THING TO A CLOSE. AND IF NEED 18 BE, I COULD LIVE WITH HIS SUGGESTION. IT'S MORE 19 THAN I WOULD HAVE OFFERED, BUT IT'S ON THE TABLE 20 AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED. 21 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. MR. MARTINEZ: I AM DEFINITELY IN AGREEMENT WITH COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. I'M DEFINITELY OPPOSED TO GIVING UP ANY OF WETLAND PARK FOR ANY REASON. I~'S A SENSITIVE AREA AND WE'RE NOT ABOUT TO START . . . 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 119 1 WHEELING AND DEALING WITH YOU ON LAND ADJACENT TO 2 WETLAND PARK, BECAUSE THERE IS AN OPPOSITION TO 3 THE .79 ACRES OF LAND THAT WERE DESIGNATED TO BE 4 MAGNOLIA PARK BECAUSE OF CONFIGURATED LINES THAT 5 ARE SHOWN HERE, WHICH WERE NEVER SURVEYED OR PUT 6 ON PAPER BY AN ENGINEER. 7 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. COMMISSIONER -- I 8 GUESS WE'VE HAD AN OPINION FROM EVERYBODY. 9 COMMISSIONER MILLER. 10 JUST SO YOU KNOW, TWO OF THE COMMISSIONERS 11 HAVE SAID SOME COMPROMISE, TWO OF THE 12 COMMISSIONERS SAID BASICALLY NO COMPROMISE. 13 MR. MCLEOD: THAT'S NOT TRUE. WHAT I'VE SAID 14 IS I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH NUMBER S UP HERE. 15 MAYOR PARTYKA: NO. NO. I'M JUST TALKING ABOUT THE TWO PARKS, THE .79 -- MR. MILLER: I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH NUMBER 8, BUT I DO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE WETLAND PARK. LEAVE IT THE WAY IT IS. MR. MARTINEZ: IF I MAY ADD, WE DON'T CARE IF HE GIVES BACK THE .15 ACRES ON S, BUT GIVE US THE .79 ON MAGNOLIA AND KEEP WETLAND PARKS THE SAME AS IT ISj ISN'T THAT RIGHT? MR. MCLEOD: THAT'S NOT TRUE. WHAT I'M SAYING IS I'M NOT LOOKING TO MOVE THE NUMBER S ~. ~ . . 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 120 1 ANYWHERE. I THINK IT'S A CONFIGURATION WHERE IT 2 LIES. THE FACT IT IS A TRAIL HEAD AND THE FACT 3 THAT THE TRAIL GOES THROUGH IT MAKES NO 4 DIFFERENCE. IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE ON THAT 5 PARTICULAR PIECE. 6 MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER MILLER WILL GIVE 7 HIS FEELING ON THIS. I GOT LOST. 8 MR. MILLER: I AGREE WITH COMMISSIONER MCLEOD 9 ON NUMBER 8, BUT I WILL NOT SUPPORT REDUCTION OR 10 THE WETLANDS PARK UPLANDS OR WETLANDS. 11 MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL RIGHT. 12 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY 13 MAGNOLIA PARK, YOU GUYS AREN'T LOSING ANYTHING. IT CAN BE EXACTLY LIKE IT IS WHETHER IT'S OUR PROPERTY OR THE STATE'S. I THINK YOU KNOW THAT. I THINK, ALSO, JUST BY THE WAY THIS DRAWING IS, YOU CAN LOOK AT THIS DRAWING AND SEE THAT BASICALLY WE'RE NOT TRYING TO ENCROACH ON ANY WETLANDS. AND WE ARE WILLING TO LOSE SOME ASSOCIATED UPLANDS THAT GET TRAPPED BETWEEN THE ROAD AND THE WETLANDS. I THINK YOU CAN TELL, AT THE TOP OF THE WETLANDS PARK, THAT IT ACTUALLY HUGS THAT CORNER. AND AS YOU COME DOWN AT THE SOUTHEAST AND SOUTHWEST CORNERS OF THE PARK, IT ALSO HUGS THERE. AND WHAT IT DOES DO IS JUST ~. . . 18 19 20 21 22 - 23 24 25 121 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 TENDS TO VEER OUT A LITTLE BIT AS IT RUNS ALONG THE EAST SIDE. AND ALL WE TALKED ABOUT IS DRAWING THAT IN AS WAS ALWAYS DISCUSSEDj BUT FOR WHATEVER REASON, WAS NOT DRAWN EXACTLY THAT WAY. IT WOULDN'T ALTER THE TOTAL THAT MUCH. IT WOULD STILL FUNCTION EXACTLY AS IT WAS INTENDED TO FUNCTION. THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN. AND, YOU KNOW, I KNOW YOU KNOW MY POSITION BY NOW. I KNOW YOURS. SO IT DOES SEEM WE'RE AT AN IMPASSE AND THAT IT IS CALLING THE BLUFF. BLUFF PUTS OUR AGREEMENT IN JEOPARDY, SO IT'S LIKE PLAYING CHICKEN. I DON'T HAVE A RESOLUTION FOR THAT. MAYOR PARTYKA: LET ME MAKE A COMMENT. I HAVE STAYED OUT OF THIS THING. I'M GOING TO GO WITH A GENERAL COMMENT HERE. MR. BLAKE: MAYOR, I'M SORRY. BUT BEFORE YOU SAY THAT, COULD I CLARIFY ONE PART OF WHAT I SAID, BECAUSE THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME CONFUSION? AND THIS ISN'T TO SPEAK FOR OR AGAINST WHAT I SAID, JUST TO CLARIFY IT. WHEN I DISCUSSED THE POSSIBLE REDUCTION OF WETLAND PARK, THAT REDUCTION OF THE SIZE WOULD ONLY INVOLVE UPLANDS AND WOULD HAVE NO EFFECT ON ANY WETLAND WHATSOEVER. THE ROADS CAN 17 . . . 122 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ONLY GO WHERE THE ROADS CAN GO. MR. GRINDSTAFF: EXACTLY. AS CLOSE AS PRACTICABLE. MR. BLAKE: WHAT I SUGGESTED IS THAT INSTEAD OF FIXING THE MINIMUM ACREAGE THAT THEY WOULD HAVE TO CONVEY AT 23.36, WHATEVER IT WAS, THAT I MIGHT BE WILLING --'MIGHT BE WILLING TO ALLOW THEM TO ATTEMPT TO RECOVER THAT ACRE AND A QUARTER, ACRE AND A THIRD, WHATEVER IT HAPPENS TO BE, OR UP TO THAT AMOUNT, IF IT'S POSSIBLE IF IT'S FEASIBLE. YOU CAN'T MAKE THE ROAD ANY SMALLER THAN WHERE THE LINES ARE FOR THE UPLANDS. THE ONLY WAY I WOULD AGREE TO SOMETHING LIKE THAT IS TO HAVE AN AGREEMENT BEFORE US AMENDED AND SIGNED OFF ON THIS EVENING SO THAT WE DON'T FIND OURSELVES COMING BACK AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN. THE PARTIES ARE HERE AND READY TO SIGN, I THINK, IF WE COME TO SOME ANSWER. BUT THAT WAS JUST TO MAKE THE POINT. WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT CHANGING ANY WETLAND PROPERTY INTO DEVELOPABLE LAND. MR. GRINDSTAFF: MAY I ADD, TOO, COMMISSIONER BLAKE, THAT DOESN'T RESULT IN THE DISAPPEARANCE OF THIS LAND INTO THIN AIR. IT RESULTS IN POTENTIALLY AN INCREASED ACRE OF TAXABLE PROPERTY WITHIN THE TOWN'CENTER. ~. . . 123 1 MAYOR PARTYKA: LET ME MAKE A GENERAL 2 COMMENT. 3 MR. MARTINEZ: MAY I ASK COMMISSIONER BLAKE A 4 QUESTION? 5 MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. 6 MR. MARTINEZ: REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOUR 7 INTENTIONS ARE, WETLAND PARK REDUCES BY GIVING 8 THIS UP FROM 23.36 TO A LOWER FIGURE. 9 MR. BLAKE: ARE YOU ASKING, DOES IT? 10 MR. MARTINEZ: YES. BASED ON YOUR 11 SUGGESTION. 12 MR. GRINDSTAFF: IT COULD. 13 LETI i MR. BLAKE: THE ANSWER TO THAT IS MAYBE. 14 ME EXPLAIN. IT MAY END UP IT MAY GET LARGER. 15 BEING LARGER THAN 23.36, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T DRAW 16 ROADS. YOU CAN'T BRING IT INTO THE WETLAND AREA. 17 ANYWAY, THE ONLY THING I'M SAYING IS, AS A 18 WAY TO ENTICE THEM TO COME TO THE TABLE, SIT DOWN, i AND SIGN THIS DEAL TONIGHT, THAT'S WHAT THIS WOULD 19 20 BE, INCENTIVE TO DO SO. BUT EVERYBODY IS WELCOME 21 TO THEIR OWN FEELINGS ON IT. 'I 22 MAYOR PARTYKA: LET ME MAKE A GENERAL COMMENT 23 WHILE EVERYBODY GETS TIME TO THINK AND WHATEVER. 24 I'LL TRY TO GIVE YOU SOME GENERAL THOUGHTS IN 25 DOING SOME CALCULATIONS HERE. . . . 124 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 YOU KNOW WE WORKED SEVERAL YEARS ON THIS ISSUE. AND IF SOMEBODY WOULD HAVE TOLD ME WAY BACK WHEN THAT THIS HINGES ON A PIECE OF TOTAL PROPERTY THAT'S ROUGHLY ABOUT TWO-TENTHS OF AN ACRE AND MAYBE A LITTLE BIT MORE BECAUSE THE DIFFERENCE IN WORDS IS "APPROXIMATE" VERSUS IILESS THAN 11 ANOTHER ONE IS PROBABLY ROUGHLY TWO-TENTHS OF AN ACRE. THE SIMPLE FACT OF THE MATTER IN THE SCHEME OF THINGS IT'S, AGAIN, VERY SMALL. IN TERMS OF ACTUAL SQUARE FOOTAGE, TWO-TENTHS IS ROUGHLY 8600 SQUARE FEET, WHICH IS ROUGHLY 100 BY 86. THEN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN IIAPPROXIMATEII AND IILESS THAN, 11 WHO KNOWS WHAT THAT IS. SO WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT A LOT OF AREA IN TOTAL. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A PIECE THAT IS 30 YARDS, YOU KNOW, BY A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN 30 YARDS, OKAY, WHICH IS NOT THAT MUCH BIGGER THAN THIS CITY HALL RIGHT HERE. THAT'S NUMBER ONE. SO IN TOTAL, WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT A LOT OF PROPERTY, PERIOD, EITHER WAY, WHICHEVER WAY YOU GO. I'M TALKING TO THIS 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 FROM BOTH SIDES HERE. THE OTHER THING ON THIS IS I ALSO TAKE THE POSITION THAT EVERYBODY SHOULD ALWAYS LEAVE A LITTLE SOMETHING ON THE TABLE, WHETHER IT'S THE ~. ~ . . 22 23 24 25 125 1 CITY, WHETHER IT'S THE DEVELOPER, SO YOU'RE BOTH 2 KIND OF HAPPYj WHERE IT'S NOT, GEE, I GOT KILLED 3 ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE LAST NITTY BITTY, 4 WHATEVER. 5 THE THIRD PIECE IS WHATEVER WAY THIS GOES, AT 6 THIS POINT IN TIME, IF WE STOP RIGHT NOW, IF THE 7 CITY GAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE OR THE SCHRIMSHERS 8 GIVE A LITTLE BIT MORE, IN EITHER CASE, ONCE WE 9 HAVE THIS, WHATEVER IT IS, THIS TOWN CENTER, WE 10 HAVE IT AS A CITY FOR THE NEXT 50, 100, 200 11 YEARS. IT WILL NEVER GO AWAY. IF WE END UP 12 GIVING A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN WHAT WE THINK WE 13 SHOULD, WE WILL GET IT BACK. WHETHER IT'S TWO 14 YEARS FROM NOW, THREE YEARS FROM NOW, OR FOUR 15 YEARS FROM NOW, WE WILL GET IT BACK IN THE REVENUE 16 AND IN THE DEVELOPMENT. WE WILL GET IT BACK IN 17 ECONOMIC BOOM OF THIS CITY VERSUS ,THE POTENTIAL 18 LAWSUIT, POTENTIAL FIGHTING, POTENTIAL GOING ON 19 AND ON AND ON. 20 I GUESS I JUST WANT EVERYBODY TO LOOK BACK, 21 EVERYBODY, AND KIND OF SEE WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, ULTIMATELY, IS ONLY ABOUT 9,000 SQUARE FEET TO CONCLUDE THIS PROJECT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. MAYBE THE THING TO DO -- AGAIN, ON THIS I SIDED WITH SOME COMMISSIONERS HERE THAT ARE ~ . . 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 126 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 COMPROMISING -- MAYBE JUST SPLIT IT DOWN THE MIDDLE, ANY FORMAT THAT YOU WANT. SO INSTEAD OF 9,000 SQUARE FEET, WE GO TO 4500 SQUARE FEET, GIVE OR TAKE, ON THE TWO YOU GOT IT FROM THERE. BUT, AGAIN, WE'VE COME SUCH A LONG WAY TO GET DOWN TO ROUGHLY 4500 FEET, 9,000 FEET, ZERO FEET OF ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. SO I WANT YOU ALL TO THINK ABOUT THIS, AND BOY, WHICHEVER WAY IT GOES FROM THIS POINT ON, WE WILL HAVE SOMETHING TERRIFIC WHERE EVERYBODY CAN START MAKING MONEY, BOTH FROM THE OWNER'S STANDPOINT AND CITY'S STANDPOINT. SO THAT'S JUST MY COMMENTS. I BELIEVE YOU WERE NEXT, COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. MR. MARTINEZ: MR. SCHRIMSHER, WHAT IS IT WORTH AN ACRE NOW AT THIS MOMENT? SERIOUS. APPROXIMATE, YOU KNOW, LIKE WHAT'S THE WORTH APPROXIMATE? MR. GRINDSTAFF: WETLAND OR UPLAND ACRE? MR. SCHRIMSHER: FRONT OR BACK? IT VARIES. MR. MARTINEZ: 250,000, APPROXIMATE FIGURE? MAYOR PARTYKA: $12 A FOOT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: YOU'RE IN THE BUSINESS THERE. 14 ~. . . 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 127 1 MR. SCHRIMSHER: IF YOU WERE TO BUY AN ACRE 2 OUT FRONT FOR AN OUT PARCEL, YOU MIGHT BE TALKING 3 10 OR 12 BUCKS A FOOT. 4 MR. MARTINEZ: HOW MANY? 5 MR. SCHRIMSHER: 10 OR 12, IF YOU'RE TALKING 6 ABOUT A GENERIC -- MAYBE IT'S MORE IN THE RANGE 7 OF 8 MR. MCLEOD: I THINK HE'S TALKING ABOUT 9 MAGNOLIA PARK. 10 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I DON'T KNOW. 11 MR. MARTINEZ: AN APPROXIMATE FIGURE. 12 MR. SCHRIMSHER: 150, $200,000. 13 MR. MARTINEZ: THAT MEANS THAT TWO-TENTHS OF 14 AN ACRE'WOULD BE WORTH ABOUT 20,000, 40,000. IS 15 ONE-FIFTH OF AN ACRE TWO-TENTHS? THAT'S ABOUT 16 $40,,000. NOW, WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE, MR. MAYOR, IS THE FACT THAT THESE PEOPLE HAVE SAT DOWN AND THEY HAVE DISCUSSED AND THEY HAVE COME TO SOME KIND OF AGREEMENT, ALTHOUGH NOT ON PAPER LIKE THIS IS TODAY. AND THEY HAVE SAID, WE ARE GOING TO EXCHANGE LAND FOR SERVICES. AND IF WE ARE GOING TO TWO-TENTHS OF AN ACRE, WHICH IS WORTH 40,000, AND FORGET ABOUT IT, SAY IT'S NOT INCLUDED HERE, WE'RE TAKING $40,000 OF THE TAXPAYERS' MONEY --, . , . . 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 128 1 AND GIVING IT AWAY, WHICH WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO 2 DO, TO GIVE ANYONE PROPERTY OF THE CITY OR MONIES 3 FROM THE CITY FOR THEIR SOLE BENEFIT. 4 WHEN YOU DO' TWO-TENTHS OF AN ACRE WORTH 5 APPROXIMATELY $40,000, THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE 6 DOING. BECAUSE WE'RE LOSING THE TWO-TENTHS OF AN 7 ACRE, WHICH IS ACTUALLY STATE PROPERTY WHICH THEY 8 CANNOT GIVE AWAY, AND THE PARK IS REDUCED TO .59 9 ACRES OF LAND. 10 MR. SCHRIMSHER: WHY DON'T YOU ASK THE STATE 11 IF THEY WILL LET -- 12 MR. GRINDSTAFF: IT'S NOT YOURS TO GIVE 13 AWAY. 14 MR. SCHRIMSHER: ALL ALONG I'VE BEEN TOLD 15 THAT'S NO PROBLEM. SOMEBODY WAS TELLING ME. 16 MR. MARTINEZ: ONE OF THE REASONS FOR MY OPPOSITION TO THIS IS WE CANNOT DO THIS BECAUSE WE! I i 17 CANNOT GIVE AWAY $40,000 WORTH OF THE CITY'S MONEY. AND THIS IS AN EXCHANGE OF LAND WORTH X AMOUNT OF DOLLARS FOR SERVICES THAT THE CITY WILL GIVE TO THAT ENTIRE PROJECT THERE IN THE FORM OF DEVELOPING THE LAND. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. YOU BACKED IT A COUPLE TIMES. I'LL LET YOU SPEAK. MR. MCLEMORE: HANG WITH ME UNTIL I GET ~. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 . 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 - -, - 23 24 . 25 129 THROUGH WITH THIS. WHAT WE HAVE IS WE HAVE SOME NEW INFORMATION IN THE SYSTEM THAT'S CAUSING SOME PROBLEMS. THE ASSERTION THAT THE SURVEYS ARE REDRAWING SOME OF THESE LINES IS AN ACCURATE STATEMENT. THEY'RE CAUSING US TO RETHINK SOME OF THIS. PART OF WHAT WE HAVE TO RETHINK IS EDGE DRIVE DOWN HERE ON THE LOWER SECTIONS, SINCE IT'S NOW -- WE KNOW IT'S WITHIN THE RIGHT-OF-WAY AND WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THAT. IF THE COMMISSION'S POSITION IS THAT YOU'RE ENTITLED TO THE .79, IS IT -- WHICH I THINK YOU SHOULD, THEN YOU'RE ALREADY AUTOMATICALLY COMPELLED TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT THIS FROM A DESIGN PERSPECTIVE TO DETERMINE HOW YOU WILL RECONFIGURE 7 TO GET THAT. SO IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE PRUDENT THING TO DO IS IF WE CAN GET THIS AGREEMENT AND WE WOULD AGREE THAT YOU'RE GETTING THE .79 ACRES. BUT I THINK WE NEED TO GO BACK AND SIT DOWN WITH VICTOR AND LOOK AT THE BEST WAY TO GET THAT .2 ACRES IN A WAY THAT WORKS WITH WHAT I THINK WE WILL SEE TOMORROW, IS SOME REALIGNMENT OF THE ROAD WHICH IS DESIGNED TO BE PERPENDICULAR WITH THE PARK. AGAIN, LOOKING AT THIS, IT SEEMS LIKE TO ME -..,. . . 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 130 1 THAT DOING WHAT I THINK WE SHOULD DO -- AND THAT'S 2 DEMAND THAT WE GET THE .79 ACRES BY VIRTUE OF WHAT 3 WE'RE WILLING TO PUT IN FOR VALUE ALMOST COMPELS 4 US TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT HOW WE PICK UP THAT .2 5 NOW THAT YOU CAN'T GET IT FROM THE STATE. DO YOU 6 UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M SAYING? 7 AND SO WHEN WE COME BACK TO YOU, WE COME BACK 8 WITH MAYBE SOMETHING THAT'S RECONFIGURED, LOOKS A 9 LITTLE DIFFERENT. IT GIVES YOU THE .79, WHICH IS 10 IN YOUR AGREEMENT. WE HAVE WORDS IN THERE THAT 11 WOULD AGREE TO THIS THAT SAYS YOU'RE ENTITLED TO 12 .79, BUT THE CONFIGURATION CAN BE MODIFIED TO 13 SOME MINOR DEGREE TO A PLAN THAT'S ACCEPTABLE TO 14 THE CITY AND BOTH PARTIES. BUT IT SEEMS WE'RE COMPELLED TO LOOK AT RECONFIGURING THIS THING BY VIRTUE OF SAYING WE ARE GOING TO GET OUR .79 ACRES, BECAUSE IT'S .2 ACRES THAT HAS TO BE DEALT WITH. WE HAVE TO LOOK AT HOW DO WE RESOLVE THE ISSUE OF EDGE DRIVE DOWN HERE, WHICH, NOW, IS LOCATED ON STATE PROPERTY, I I I Isl WHICH NOBODY REALIZED THAT, BUT IT IS. SO I WOULD OFFER THAT MAYBE THE GOOD THING FOR US TO SIT DOWN WITH VICTOR, LOOK AT THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT WE -- AS WE KNOW THEM TODAY, AND" COME BACK TO YOU WITH YOUR .79 AND A SOLUTION . ~ . . 131 1 TO EDGE DRIVE AND SEE, TO A POINT, IF THAT'S 2 ACCEPTABLE TO YOU. 3 BUT IT SEEMS TO ME WE CAN DO THAT BY 4 OPERATION OF THE LANGUAGE WHERE IT SAYS YOU'RE 5 GOING TO AGREE TO .79, BUT IT MAY REQUIRE SOME 6 CONFIGURATION TO GET THERE, WHICH IS GOING TO 7 REQUIRE SOME ADDITIONAL STUDY BY YOUR DESIGNER TO 8 DEAL WITH THE OTHER ISSUE THAT'S ON THE OTHER 9 SIDE, ALSO CAUSED BY SOMETHING THAT NOBODY KNEW 10 ABOUT UNTIL TODAY MAYBE FRIDAY. 11 I THINK YOU KNOW THAT IT SEEMS LIKE MAYBE 12 EVERYBODY'S INTEREST IS SERVED BY THAT. AM I 13 I i LET ME TURN IT OVER TO COMMISSIONER GENNELL. I BUT MAKING THE SIMPLE DECISION THAT .79 ACRESI I I I I i j i I I I YOU LOOK AT THE SIZE OF THE PIECE OF PROPERTY, YOUI INDICATED THAT'S A COUPLE HUNDRED EXTRA PEOPLE AT I WRONG? I THINK THE CONCEPT IS GOOD. 14 15 16 IS WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO GET. 17 COMMISSIONER GENNELL. 18 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YES. THANK YOU. 19 WELL, IN REFERENCE TO WHAT YOU SAID, MR. MAYOR, 20 ABOUT IT'S ONLY X NUMBER OF FEET AND ALL. WHEN 21 22 23 --l I A FESTIVAL OR A CONCERT. THAT'S WHAT THAT AMOUNT 24 OF SPACE WOULD ACCOMMODATE; AND IN THAT EVENT, 25 LITTLE, SIGNIFICANT, NOT MANY, HOW MANY PEOPLE CAN .. " , . . 24 25 132 1 CONGREGATE IN A CENTRAL LOCATION. 2 SO I THINK THAT THAT PARK IS ESSENTIAL TO BE 3 WHERE IT IS. ITS CENTER SHALL TO BE PRIMARILY THE 4 SHAPE IT IS. WE NEED THE DEVELOPMENT OF THAT 5 NORTH PARCEL. WE DON'T NEED THAT AS VACANT LAND. 6 BUT I WILL SAY THIS -- LET ME ASK A QUESTION. 7 EDGE DRIVE AND SPINE ROAD ARE BOTH ON THE EAST OF 8 WETLANDS PARK? 9 MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT'S THE SAME ROAD. 10 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: IT'S ONE AND THE SAME? 11 MR. GRINDSTAFF: YES, MA'AM. 12 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: OKAY. THAT PROPERTY 13 ALONG THERE HAS COME UP BEFORE -- SOME OF THAT IS 14 UPLANDS -- THAT WE COULD HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO 15 HAVE THAT ROAD MEANDER, EVEN PERHAPS HAVE PLACES 16 TO PUT A MEDIAN IN AT CERTAIN PLACES AND ADD A 17 LITTLE INTEREST TO THAT ROADWAY THERE BY GIVING 18 THEM THE FLEXIBILITY TO ENCROACH ONLY ON THE 19 UPLAND PART OF THAT. 20 MR. GRINDSTAFF: BY DEFINITION -- IF I COULD 21 POINT OUT, COMMISSIONER, BY DEFINITION OF SPINE 22 ROAD ON PAGE 3, PARAGRAPH K, SAYS, SPINE ROAD WILL 23 RUN AS CLOSE AS PRACTICABLE TO THE WETLAND PARK IN ORDER TO REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF ISOLATED UPLANDS BETWEEN SPINE ROAD AND WETLAND PARK. . . . 133 1 IN OTHER WORDS, IT'S SUPPOSED TO GET OVER 2 THERE AS CLOSE AS IT CAN, BUT PRESERVE THE CURVE. 3 IT NEEDS TO BE A SAFE ROAD. 4 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: BUT IF YOU'RE MARRIED 5 TO THE 23.62, OR WHATEVER IT WAS, IT WOULD HAVE TO 6 STAY OUT OF THAT. 7 MR. GRINDSTAFF: IT NEEDS TO GO OUT, IN OUR 8 OPINION. THAT DOESN'T -- THERE'S ROOM THERE TO 9 GET AS CLOSE AS PRACTICABLE, MAINTAIN YOUR 10 BUFFERS. AND WHEREVER IT IS, WE'RE WILLING TO 11 LIVE WITH. WHATEVER THAT CLOSE LINE IS, IT IS. 12 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I'M BACK AGAIN TO 13 COMMISSIONER BLAKE'S SUGGESTION. AND 14 INCORPORATING, ALSO, IS WHAT COMMISSIONER MCLEOD 15 SUGGESTED THAT 16 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE THINK THAT'S A GOOD IDEA 17 FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES. 18 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: NOTHING WOULD PRECLUDE; i I 19 YOU FROM GOING TO THE STATE AND SEEING WHAT KIND 20 OF DEAL YOU COULD CUT WITH THEM ON SOME OF THAT 21 PROPERTY THERE ON MAGNOLIA PARK. 22 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE UNDERSTAND. 23 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: BUT I AM ADAMANT, 24 ALSO, THAT WE NEED THAT .79 FOR THAT MAGNOLIA 25 PARK. WE NEED IT IN SPECIFICITY AS TO THE ~. ~. . -. 20 21 22 23 24 25 134 1 ACREAGE, AND THEN THE CENTRAL LOCATION REMAINING 2 CENTRAL, NOT BEING SQUEEZED UP NORTHWARDS. 3 BUT I WOULD CONCEDE SOME OF THE UPLANDS IN 4 THE WETLAND PARK AREA IN ORDER TO BRING THIS TO A 5 CLOSE TONIGHT. 6 AND THEN I THINK THE PROCESS THAT WE ALL 7 ANTICIPATED, WHICH IS THE MESSAGING OF THIS, THE 8 CHANGING OF THAT, THE CONSTANT, CONSTANT 9 I ADJUSTMENTS THAT WILL BE PART OF THIS FOR THE NEXT 10 FIVE OR TEN YEARS, BEGIN TO TAKE PLACE. BUT THEY 11 TAKE PLACE WITHIN THE FORMAT OF .79 FOR MAGNOLIA 12 AND FROM THAT POINT ON. 13 MAYOR PARTYKA: THANK YOU. COMMISSIONER 14 MCLEOD WANTS TO SPEAK. 15 DO YOU WANT TO SPEAK NOW? 16 MR. MCLEMORE: I WANT TO MAKE YOU AWARE THAT 17 I THINK WE WILL HAVE IN OUR HANDS A SURVEY 18 TOMORROW THAT SHOWS YOU THAT WETLAND PARK CAN DO 19 EVERYTHING THAT'S STATED ALREADY AND COME IN AT THE 23 POINT WHATEVER -- MR. MARTINEZ: THIRTY-SIX. MR. MCLEMORE: ACRES. MR. GRINDSTAFF: IS THAT GOING TO BE AS CLOSE AS PRACTICABLE TO WETLAND PARK? WILL THAT RESULT IN SPINE ROAD BEING AS CLOSE AS IT CAN? ~~. . . 135 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 MR. MCLEMORE: I THINK SO TO THE POINT THAT IT GIVES US 23.36. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT'S WHERE YOU BACK IT INTO ITS LOCATION. YOU GET THE LOCATION, THEN YOU CALCULATE THE ACREAGE. MR. MCLEMORE: WELL, THAT'S THE WHOLE THING WE BATTLED ON ALL NIGHT. WE'RE ENTITLED TO. MR. GRINDSTAFF: YOU AGREE TO WHAT YOU SAID IN K OR YOU DON'T AGREE TO WHAT YOU SAY. MR. MCLEMORE: WE HAVE A MINIMUM AMOUNT OF ACREAGE. THE COMMISSION IS SAYING THEY'RE WILLING TO GIVE UP A SMALL AMOUNT, BUT I'M TELLING YOU YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A PLAN, I THINK, TOMORROW THAT MEETS YOUR REQUIREMENTS. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT'S FUNNY HOW YOU EXPECT TO AGREE TO MICHAEL BUT YOU IGNORE WHAT YOU AGREED TO. I THINK K SAYS THAT SPINE ROAD HAS GOT TO BE 15 16 17 18 AS CLOSE TO WETLAND PARK AS IT CAN BE. THAT COULD 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 END UP ADJUSTING. YOU DON'T SAY IT'S PRESERVE 23 .36 . MR. MCLEMORE: ECONOMICALLY, I'M STATING THAT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS YOU DON'T MEAN WHAT YOU SAY IN K. THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. -. , . . 136 1 MR. MCLEMORE: YES, I DO. 2 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. LET'S 3 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: CAN I ASK FOR 4 CLARIFICATION HERE? 5 MAYOR PARTYKA: FOR WHAT? 6 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I'M TRYING TO FIGURE 7 OUT WHERE THEIR DISAGREEMENT WITH MR. MCLEMORE IS 8 ON K. SOMEBODY TELL ME. I HAVE K. 9 MAYOR PARTYKA: 3 OF 22. 10 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WHERE ARE YOU TWO IN 11 DISAGREEMENT? 12 MR. MCLEMORE: WHICH DOCUMENT? 13 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I'M IN THE SHUTTS & 14 BOWEN. 15 MR. GRINDSTAFF: PARAGRAPH K, RON, NOT PARCEL 16 K. 17 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THAT'S WHAT YOU WERE 18 TAbKING ABOUT, WAS IT NOT? 19 MR. GRINDSTAFF: YES, MA'AM. YES, MA'AM. 20 PARAGRAPH ROMAN NUMERAL II-K, DEFINITION OF SPINE 21 ROAD. SPINE ROAD IS THE RED ROAD ON THE MAP. BUT 22 AT SOME POINT, IT'S A TOWN CENTER ROAD AND OTHER 23 PLACES IT'S AN EDGE DRIVE. 24 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WHAT PROBLEM ARE YOU 25 HAVING WITH THAT? 't. . . 137 1 MR. GRINDSTAFF: MA'AM, I DON'T HAVE A 2 PROBLEM. I'M READING THE THIRD SENTENCE, WHICH 3 READS AS FOLLOWS: SPINE ROAD WILL RUN AS CLOSE AS 4 PRACTICABLE TO WETLAND PARK IN ORDER TO REDUCE THE 5 AMOUNT OF ISOLATED UPLANDS BETWEEN SPINE ROAD AND 6 WETLAND PARK. 7 IN OTHER WORDS, IT NEEDS TO GET OVER THERE AS 8 CLOSE AS IT CAN TO WETLAND PARK IN ORDER TO REDUCE 9 THE ISOLATED WETLANDS. 10 MR. MCLEMORE: WELL 11 MR. GRINDSTAFF: RECOGNIZING THAT THERE'S A 12 BUFFER. 13 MR. MARTINEZ: IT DOESN'T SAY THAT. 14 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WHAT YOU'RE SUGGESTINGI I 15 BY THAT IS THAT THE WETLAND PARK, IF YOU DO THAT, 16 MAY COME TO LESS THAN 23 POINT SOMETHING. 17 MR. GRINDSTAFF: POSSIBLY. 18 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: COULD POSSIBLY. 19 MR. GRINDSTAFF: YES, MA'AM. 20 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THAT WOULD ENCOMPASS 21 WHAT COMMISSIONER BLAKE AND I WERE PROVIDING FOR. 22 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE AGREE WITH YOU, 23 COMMISSIONER. 24 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I WANT TO SAY I MADE IT NOT 25 VERY CLEAR RECONFIGURING MAGNOLIA SQUARE. I WJ..S -,.. '\\.. . -. 138 1 TALKING ABOUT ADDING UP TO THE .7, SO I DON'T 2 KNOW. SOMETIMES IT SAYS MAGNOLIA PARK, SOMETIMES 3 IT SAYS MAGNOLIA SQUARE. IN THE CODE IT SAYS 4 SQUARE. SO I DON'T THINK THAT THERE'S -- IF WE 5 RECONFIGURE IT, I WAS SUGGESTING WE WOULD MEET THE 6 .79. SO IT'S JUST A MATTER OF AGREEING ON HOW 7 THAT COULD BE RECONFIGURED. I THINK WE'RE CLOSE, 8 BUT I GUESS WE'RE STILL 9 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I DON'T THINK THAT 10 COMMISSIONER BLAKE IS SUGGESTING THAT, OUTRIGHT, 11 FIX IT 22 ACRES. HE'S SAYING THAT -- I'M JUST 12 USING THAT AS THE NUMBER -- IT WOULD BE NOT LESS 13 THAN THE 22-ACRE NUMBER WHERE WE COULD TRY TO 14 TIGHTEN THAT UP AS BEST WE CAN AND GO FROM THERE. 15 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: ALL RIGHT. WELL, I 16 MEAN, LET ME TRY ONE OTHER THING THERE IF WE'RE AT 17 .79 ON MAGNOLIA. 18 MR. MCLEOD: I THOUGHT I HAD THE FLOOR. 19 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: OH, DID YOU? I'M 20 I'LL GIVE IT BACK TO YOU. SORRY. 21 MAYOR PARTYKA: I'LL PUT YOU DOWN FOR THE 22 NEXT TIME. 23 COMMISSIONER MCLEOD, THANK YOU FOR HOLDING 24 YOUR POSITION. 25 MR. MCLEOD: THANK YOU. I UNDERSTAND WHAT -. . . 139 1 YOU'RE SAYING, MICKEY, REGARDING K. BUT YOU CAN 2 ALSO INTERPRET K AS BEING IF YOU MAINTAIN 23.36 3 ACRES, THEN SPINE ROAD WILL RUN AS CLOSE AS 4 PRACTICABLE TO MAINTAIN THOSE ACREAGES OF WETLAND 5 PARK IN ORDER TO REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF THE ISOLATED 6 UPLANDS. OKAY. SO IT'S A MATTER OF HOW YOU 7 REPOSITION YOURSELVES TO TAKE A LOOK AT IT. 8 I THINK I MIGHT HAVE SOME -- I'M REALLY NOT 9 WANTING TO GIVE UP THE WETLANDS ON THE EAST SIDE 10 IF I DON'T NEED TO. BUT IF YOU COULD CONFIGURE 11 THE ROAD TO KICK IN A LITTLE CLOSER -- AND IT'S 12 TOO BAD THAT SOMEBODY COULDN'T BE DRAWING ON THAT 13 MAP SO EVERYBODY COULD SEE IT -- BUT WHERE YOU 14 JUST HIT THE PEAKS OF SOME OF THOSE UPLANDS, THE 15 PROBLEM IS YOU'LL HAVE NO WAY THAT PEOPLE CAN WALK 16 AROUND THAT END OF THE PARK OVER THERE IF YOU JUST 17 CATCH THE POINT. 18 I MR. SCHRIMSHER: YOU WILL, BECAUSE EDGE DRIVEi 19 INCLUDES -- YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT PAVED FROM LINE TO 20 IT INCLUDES SIDEWALKS AND GREEN SPACES. LINE. 21 MR. MCLEOD: ALL RIGHT. WELL, GOOD. BUT IF 22 WE~RE WILLING TO MOVE THAT OVER, THEN OUR MAIN 23 CONCERN HERE, I BELIEVE, COMES DOWN TO BEING THIS 24 EDGE DRIVE PARCEL. 25 IF WE'RE WILLING TO GIVE UP SOME OF THIS UP . . . 140 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 IN HERE, MR. SCHRIMSHER, TO BRING THIS ROAD AROUND, BRING IT CLOSER TO, WHETHER IT BE 21, 22 ACRES, ARE YOU WILLING TO GIVE UP THAT LITTLE SLIVER OF THAT PARCEL TO MAKE SURE EDGE DRIVE ROAD FALLS DOWN THROUGH THERE TOWARD MAGNOLIA PARK SO THAT THAT DOES NOT BECOME AN ISSUE TO THE CITY, NOR ANYBODY ELSE LATER? AND WE WOULD THEN GO INTO THE STATE AND TRY TO GET THE APPROVAL OFF THE 7 OF MAGNOLIA'S TWO-TENTHS OF AN ACRE TO SET ON IT. BUT I THINK EDGE DRIVE IS A REAL ISSUE OF BEING ABLE TO SET THAT ROAD ON THE STATE RIGHT-OF-WAY, AND I THINK THAT BECOMES A REAL ISSUE FOR THE CITY. AKD I THINK I'D BE WILLING TO DO SOME MOVING IN WETLANDS PARK, MAGNOLIA PARK, TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE EDGE DRIVE IN (INAUDIBLE). MR. SCHRIMSHER: WELL, I THINK I'M GENERALLY UNDERSTANDING AND IN AGREEMENT WITH WHAT YOU SAY. I THINK THAT WHILE WE'RE -- I GUESS I JUST -- I'M NOT SURE WHAT I DON'T-- I'M NOT SURE THE STATE WON'T AGREE TO ALLOW -- 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MCLEOD: I HAVE TO TAKE THE WORST SCENARIO MR. SCHRIMSHER: I KNOW. MR. MCLEOD: -- RIGHT HERE. '. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 141 MR. SCHRIMSHER: JUST BASED ON WHAT I'VE SEEN; THEM DO WITH OTHER TRAIL HEADS. AND I ALSO, I GUESS, THINK IT SHOULD BE THAT'S THE KIND OF ROAD THAT MAY BECOME MORE OF AN ALLEY SERVING A PARKING COURT BEHIND THE L-SHAPE OR U-SHAPE BUILDING THAT COULD GET BUILT ON THAT SITE. IN OTHER WORDS, IT WOULDN'T NECESSARILY NEED TO BE A FULL-BLOWN EDGE DRIVE IN THAT LOCATION. YOU ALREADY HAVE 100-FOOT-WIDE SWATH THROUGH THERE THAT HAS NOTHING ON IT BUT A 10-FOOT-WIDE ROLLER BLADE PATH. WHY ADD ANOTHER 40 OR 50 FEET RIGHT-OF-WAY TO JUST FURTHER ELIMINATE -- MR. MCLEOD: I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THE FACT THAT MR. SCHRIMSHER: IN OTHER WORDS, IT WOULD BE AN OPTIONAL ROAD, I THINK, AT THAT POINT. MR. MCLEOD: I DON'T. I THINK EDGE DRIVE IS EDGE DRIVE. THAT WAS OUR INTENTION TO HAVE AN EDGE DRIVE AROUND THERE. MINE WOULD BE IS THAT -- IF YOU WANT TO MOVE IT, YOU KNOW, MY INTENTION HERE WOULD BE THAT ALL ALONG, I FELT WE WERE OUTSIDE OF THE BOUNDARIES OF THE EASEMENTS OR NOT THE EASEMENTS -- THE OWNERSHIP OF THE CSX RAILROAD ON THAT ROAD. BUT IF IT'S NOT MEANING THAT, THEN I THINK . . . 142 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 THE INTENT WAS THAT THAT ROAD WAS TO BE ON THAT PROPERTY. AND IF THAT ROAD'S ON THAT PROPERTY AND YOU'RE ABLE TO GO BACK -- YOU KNOW, IF YOU WANT TO GO BACK TO THE STATE AND YOU WANT TO GET THE STATE TO AGREE, I WOULDN'T HAVE A PROBLEM LATER TO COME BACK WHILE THIS THING'S UNDER DEVELOPMENT AND MOVE THAT ROAD BACK INTO THAT AREA, PROVIDED YOU DO THE LEGWORK WITH THE STATE AND YOU GET IT APPROVED THAT A ROAD CAN BE THERE. IF IT ISN'T APPROVED TO BE THERE BY THE TIME THAT AREA GETS READY TO BE DEVELOPED AND EDGE DRIVE GETS READY TO BE DEVELOPED, THEN THAT HAS TO MOVE OUTSIDE OF THAT JURISDICTIONAL BOUNDARY. MR. GRINDSTAFF: COMMISSIONER, WHAT IF THERE 1 WAS A PROPOSED DEVELOPMENT FOR THAT LITTLE SEGMENT THERE, THAT PARCEL OF LAND THAT HAD AN INTERNAL ALLEYWAY GOING EAST AND WEST, THAT NEGATED THE NEED FOR EDGE DRIVE? MR. SCHRIMSHER: YEAH. WHY WOULD YOU CARE IF IT'S THERE OR NOT? MR. MCLEOD: BECAUSE EDGE DRIVE, YOU CAN DRIVE ALONG AND YOU CAN STILL -- FROM THE PARK, YOU CAN CIRCLE -- YOU CAN BRING TRAFFIC AS A ONE-WAY EVEN OR YOU CAN BRING TRAFFIC AROUND THROUGH. YOU DON'T NORMALLY RUN TRAFFIC THROUGH 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 . 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 . 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 :2 - - - , 23 24 . 25 143 ALLEYS. THE ALLEY, I WOULDN'T THINK -- MR. SCHRIMSHER: I THINK PART OF THE ANSWER IS IT WILL HELP TO SERVE THE PEDESTRIAN NATURE. ALSO, AS DESIGNED, THIS ROAD GOES ALL THE WAY AROUND MAGNOLIA PARK, SO IT WOULDN'T BE A DEAD-END CUL-DE-SAC. THEY COULD MOVE RIGHT AROUND. MR. BLAKE: IT'S JUST ONE WAY. MR. SCHRIMSHER: THAT'S WHAT HE WAS JUST SAYING. I MEAN -- AND ALSO, YOU'LL NOTICE IT'S BEEN PRETTY CONSISTENTLY DRAWN FOR SOME TIME BY VICTOR AS -- MR. MCLEOD: YES. THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING. SO HAS EDGE DRIVE BEEN PRETTY CONSISTENT HERE? MR. SCHRIMSHER: I WAS ABOUT TO SAY THAT THE ROAD THAT GOES AROUND MAGNOLIA PARK ON THE EAST AND THEN ACROSS THE NORTH IS NARROWER THAN THE ROAD THAT RUNS ON THE SOUTH SIDE OF IT. IT APPEARS THAT HE HAS JUST MADE IT A DRIVE LANE WITHOUT PARKING. I'M PRETTY SURE THAT'S HIS INTENTION, BECAUSE OF THE SITE CONSTRAINTS, WHICH WOULD BECOME -- YOU KNOW, STARTS TO BECOME AN ISSUE AS YOU TURN THE 100-FOOT-WIDE SWATH INTO 150. BECAUSE, AS MR. (INAUDIBLE) NOTICED EARLIER, IF YOU LAY A SCALE ON THAT, IT PROBABLY SCALES OUT . " . . 25 144 1 CLOSER TO 75 OR 80 FEET CURRENTLY, THE COMBINATION 2 OF EDGE DRIVE AND THE PAVED TRAIL SOUTH OF 3 MAGNOLIA SQUARE. 4 MR. MCLEOD: WOULD YOU GET BACK TO MY 5 QUESTION, THEN? 6 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I THINK J TRIED TO. I THINK 7 EDGE DRIVE THERE ALONG THAT SHOULD BE AN OPTIONAL 8 ROAD. AND I WOULD TRY VERY AND I WOULD HOPE 9 THE CITY WOULD AGREE, AT LEAST IN THE EFFORT TO 10 ATTEMPT TO GET THE STATE TO APPROVE THE ROAD WITH 11 PARKING TO BE BUILT THERE IN THE RIGHT-OF-WAY 12 BECAUSE OF THE BENEFIT IT WOULD BRING TO MAGNOLIA 13 PARK, WITH MAGNOLIA SQUARE FUNCTIONING AS A TRAIL 14 HEAD. 15 AND IF THEY WOULDN'T, THEN THE ROAD ALONG 16 THAT STRETCH WOULD BE AN OPTIONAL ROAD. IT MIGHT 17 BE BUILT OR IT MAY BECOME MORE OF JUST A DRIVE 18 LANE OR ALLEY OR WHATEVER SERVING THE PARKING 19 COURT FOR THE BUILDING THAT WOULD GO ON THAT 20 SITE. 21 I THINK IT'S TO THE CITY'S BENEFIT, NOT JUST 22 OURS, TO MAXIMIZE THE DEVELOPMENT POTENTIAL OF 23 WHATEVER SITES DO REMAIN ONCE YOU'VE TAKEN OUT ALL 24 THE PARKS AND RIGHT-OF-WAYS. DEFINITELY, IT'S TO MY BENEFIT. THAT'S WHY . . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . 145 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 I'M GUARDING IT. I HAVE TO GUARD MY WALLET. I CAN'T COUNT ON YOU-ALL TO DO IT. BUT I THINK IT'S IN THE CITY'S INTEREST SIMILARLY THAT WE MAKE THE BEST -- MAKE THE MOST OF WHAT DEVELOPABLE SITES THERE ARE. MR. MARTINEZ: MAYOR PARTYKA: MR. MARTINEZ: MAYOR PARTYKA: I HAVE A POINT OF ORDER. POINT OF ORDER. MOTION TO ADJOURN. IS THERE A SECOND TO THAT? MR. SCHRIMSHER: SECOND. MR. MARTINEZ: WE AIN'T GOING NOWHERE'S. MAYOR PARTYKA: IS THERE A SECOND TO THAT? 15 OKAY. MOTION DIES FOR LACK OF A SECOND. WE DO NEED A MOTION TO EXTEND. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: MOTION TO EXTEND FOR 30 MINUTES. MR. BLAKE: SECOND. 16 17 18 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. CALL THE VOTE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER BLAKE. MR. BLAKE: AYE. THE CLERK: DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MCLEC::>. MR. MCLEOD: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. . . . 146 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MARTINEZ: NO. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MILLER. MR. MILLER: AYE. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. MR. MCLEMORE: MR. MAYOR, I NEED TO MAKE A COMMENT. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. DO YOU WANT TO WAIT OR DO IT RIGHT NOW? MR. MCLEMORE: WHENEVER. MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL RIGHT. GO AHEAD. MR. MCLEMORE: THE PURPOSE OF MAGNOLIA PARK IS GOING TO BE SUBSTANTIALLY REDUCED IF IT DOES NOT HAVE TRAFFIC CIRCULATION. AND THAT COMES BACK TO MY EARLIER COMMENT, IS I THINK WE NEED TO TAKE ANOTHER LOOK AT THIS AREA TO TRY TO PRESERVE WHAT MAGNOLIA PARK WAS SUPPOSED TO BE; AND THAT WAS, HOPEFULLY, TO HAVE SHOPS ALONG THE STREET ACROSS FROM THE GREEN OF THE LITTLE PARK. AND THAT'S NOT GOING TO BE POSSIBLE IF YOU TAKE AWAY TRAFFIC CIRCULATION. AND MY CONCERN IS THAT IF WE DON'T HAVE EDGE DRIVE GOING THERE, YOU WON'T HAVE THE TRAFFIC CIRCULATION. I THINK THE FACT THAT THE RIGHT-OF-W~Y NOW IS NOT WHERE WE THOUGHT IT WAS MAKES US WANT TO RETHINK MAGNOLIA PARK, TO HOW TO PRESERVE SOME ~. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 147 TRAFFIC CIRCULATION, AS WELL AS KEEPING IT AS LARGE -- YOU KNOW, AT THIS POINT, THE .79 ACRES. I THINK IT NEEDS SOME RESTUDY AND I DON'T THINK WE CAN SOLVE IT AT THIS MEETING TONIGHT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: IT WOULD ALSO GIVE US TIME TO JUST -- WE CAN MAKE AN EFFORT TO FIND OUT HOW FAR THE OFFICE OF GREENWAYS AND TRAILS FEELS ABOUT THE POSSIBLE USE OF THAT AREA. I DON'T DISAGREE THERE, RON, IN TERMS OF GIVING SOME TIME FOR STUDY. I MEAN, IT'S NOT LIKE THIS IS PRESSING DOWN ON US. IT'S NOT LIKE WE'RE NOT ALL TRYING IN GOOD FAITH. LET'S FACE IT, THE TRANSMITTAL OF THE COMP PLAN AMENDMENT HAS BEEN POSTPONED FOR FOUR TO SIX WEEKS. MR. MCLEMORE: MAYBE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WELL, I'M ASSUMING YOU-ALL GOT -- YOU KNOW, THAT WHAT SOMEONE TOLD YOU ON THE PHONE IS ACCURATE, SO YOU'LL BE ABLE TO GET THAT CONFIRMATION FROM DCA. BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS, I THINK A RESTUDY OF WHERE WE KNOW THAT THERE IS AN ISSUE THAT ABSOLUTELY EXISTS IS A GOOD IDEA. MR. MCLEMORE: WE KNEW ABOUT IT TWO OR THREE DAYS AGO. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I AGREE WITH YOU. . . . 148 1 MR. MCLEMORE: IT'S RAISED A LOT OF ISSUES. 2 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO 3 EVERYONE IN THEIR HARD WORK AND GOOD EFFORT, I 4 MEAN, MERELY SITTING HERE FOR 30 MINUTES ARGUING 5 DOES NOT RESULT IN AN AGREEMENT WITH AN ISSUE 6 WHERE WE KNOW THERE ARE UNANSWERED QUESTIONS. I 7 KNOW WE'RE TRYING. WE'RE TRYING TO GET THERE, BUT 8 WE WON'T HAVE AN AGREEMENT 30 MINUTES FROM NOW IF 9 WE DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT WE'RE DEALING WITH. 10 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. 11 WHY DON'T YOU TELL THEM YOU'REI I I I I DOES THE COMMISSION UNDERSTANDI I I MR. MARTINEZ: 12 NOT BUDGING? THIS WAY WE'LL END IT. 13 MAYOR PARTYKA: AT THIS POINT -- 14 MR. MCLEMORE: 15 WHAT I'M RECOMMENDING? 16 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YES, I DO. 17 MR. MCLEOD: YES, I UNDERSTAND IT. 18 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. OKAY. 19 MR. GRINDSTAFF: BUT HOLDING AT .79. 20 I THINK WE' VEl MR. MCLEMORE: HOLDING AT .79. 21 GOT SOME TRAFFIC CIRCULATION THINGS TO WORK OUT 22 AND HOW WE DEAL WITH EDGE DRIVE SO WE MAINTAIN THE 23 TRAFFIC CIRCULATION. IT MAY REQUIRE SOME TRADE 24 OFF A LITTLE BIT. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO ANSWER IT 25 RIGHT NOW. . . . 20 21 22 23 24 25 149 1 MR. MCLEOD: WELL-- 2 MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER, I BELIEVE 3 COMMISSIONER GENNELL HAS THE FLOOR. 4 MR. MCLEOD: NO. I WAS SPEAKING, AND YOU 5 TURNED AROUND AND TURNED IT OVER TO THE CITY 6 MANAGER. I WAS PATIENTLY WAITING. 7 MAYOR PARTYKA: I THOUGHT YOU WERE DONE. 8 MR. MCLEOD: NO, SIR. 9 MAYOR PARTYKA: I'M SORRY. 10 MR. MCLEOD: I WAS PATIENT. 11 MAYOR PARTYKA: I APOLOGIZE. ::'2 MR. MCLEOD: I THINK IF WE DON'T RESOLVE THIS 13 THING THIS EVENING, IT LOOKS LIKE WE MAY BE 14 HITTING THAT TRAIL HEAD WITH A DEAD HEAD. BUT THE 15 THING I WOULD SUGGEST IS THAT MR. MANAGER BRING 16 BACK IN OUR PACKETS WITH THIS THING WITH THE 17 SHEETS THAT SPELLED OUT THE DOLLARS AND CENTS TO 18 THESE PROPERTIES. BECAUSE THAT IS PART OF THE 19 COST THAT WE HAVE GONE THROUGH FOR THIS INFRASTRUCTURE OF NEGOTIATION. BECAUSE I HAVE A CONCERN THAT THIS WETLAND PARK UP HERE ALL OF A SUDDEN COMES DOWN TO 20 ACRES, AND THERE'S A DOLLAR AND CENT THAT WAS ATTACHED TO THOSE ACREAGES AS IT WAS, IN GOOD FAITH, PICKED TO PICK THOSE THINGS UP. . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 150 MR. MCLEMORE: OH, I AGREE WITH YOU. MR. MCLEOD: I THINK WE WERE PRETTY WELL GIVEN A NUMBER, AND THAT WAS THE NUMBER WHETHER WE ALL AGREED TO IT OR NOT. THEY WERE FAIRLY SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS FOR WHAT THAT ACREAGE IS TODAY THERE. SO THERE'S SOME GIVE-AND-TAKE THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN HERE. WE'RE GIVING 'UP SOME LAND, SO I THINK SOMEBODY NEEDS TO BE TAKING A LOOK AT WHAT'S COMING BACK TOWARDS THIS CITY. THIS NEGOTIATION HAS GONE ON FOR AN AWFUL LONG TIME, AND I WANT TO LOOK AT THOSE FIGURES TO SEE EXACTLY WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT NOW. MR. GRINDSTAFF: IF IT GOES UP -- IF IT DOES GO UP IN TERMS OF ACREAGE, WOULD THAT RESULT IN MORE BENEFITS TO SCHRIMSHER? MR. MCLEOD: WELL, THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT NEXT WEEK, THAT -- OR TWO WEEKS FROM NOW -- I WOULDN'T HAVE A DOUBT IN MY MIND. I WOULD PUT MONEY ON THE TABLE ON IT, THAT IF, ALL OF A SUDDEN, IT SEEMS LIKE THERE HAPPENED TO BE 25 ACRES THERE, THAT THE CITY WOULD BE ASKED TO PAY THE DIFFERENCE. I'D BET ON THAT ONE. SO YES -- I'M BEING FACTUAL. I'M NOT TRYING TO BE SMART. MR. SCHRIMSHER: I'M AMUSED, SO I DON'T HAVE TO BE INSULTED. ~. . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . 151 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 MR. MCLEOD: I'M JUST BEING VERY FACTUAL THAT THAT WOULD COME UP. SO I JUST WANT TO SEE WHAT THOSE NUMBERS ARE. WE GAVE THAT UP FOR THE STRUCTURE AND THAT WAS PART OF THE DEAL. I THINK WE NEED TO TAKE A LOOK AT THAT. MAYOR PARTYKA: THANK YOU. COMMISSIONER GENNELL. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: OKAY. MAYOR PARTYKA: IF I MAY JUST SAY, SO FAR, I THINK THE FEELING IS THIS MAY BE POSTPONED OR DISCUSSED FURTHER. AND IF YOU WANT TO, AS PART OF YOUR DISCUSSION -- DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WE'RE NOT DONE YET. MAYOR PARTYKA: NO. NO. MR. SCHRIMSHER: I AGREE WITH THE COMMENTS ABOUT THE NEED FOR TRAFFIC CIRCULATION AND THE FACT THAT IT IS BENEFICIAL TO THE PARK, WHICH IS A TRAIL END. AND THAT'S WHY I THINK THE STATE WOULD LOOK FAVORABLY AT PEOPLE BEING ABLE TO GET TO A TRAIL AND THE TRAIL HEAD THAT THEY ARE HOPING WILL BE USED. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. IT'S ALL YOURS, COMMISSIONER. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THANK YOU. I AGREE WITH YOUR EARLIER COMMENTS THAT DOING THIS WITH 18 . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 152 NINE PEOPLE IS NOT THE BEST WAY TO DO IT. BUT, ALSO, WE'RE AT THE POINT WHERE WE'RE REALLY DOWN AS FAR AS WE CAN GO, I THINK, AS A COMMISSION, AS FAR AS THE WHEELING AND DEALING. ALL IT CAN KEEP DOING IS COMING BACK WITH THESE KIND OF SAME LITTLE ISSUES THAT WE ALL KNEW WE WERE GOING TO HAVE LITTLE ISSUES. YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE ALL THESE THINGS THAT YOU'RE DISCUSSING ABOUT EDGE DRIVE AND THIS AND THAT AND THE OTHER. MOVING THIS OR SHIFTING THAT, ARE ALL THINGS WE ANTICIPATED IN THIS TOWN CENTER DESIGN. AND I DO BELIEVE THAT WE CAN SETTLE THIS HERE TONIGHT, IN ONE WAY, AND IF YOU'LL JUST -- IF YOU'LL WORK WITH US, IF YOU'LL AGREE THAT MAGNOLIA PARK IS .79. I THINK WE'VE ESTABLISHED THAT. . A STANDARD REAL ESTATE TERM IS "MORE OR LESS." WHY DON'T YOU JUST INSERT IN THERE THAT YOU WILL CONVEY THE WETLAND PARK, 26 POINT WHATEVER IT IS, MORE OR LESS. IT'S A STANDARD REAL ESTATE TERM. AND THAT GIVES YOU THE FLEXIBILITY AND GIVES US THE FLEXIBILITY, AND IT GIVES ROOM TO MOVE THINGS AROUND, SHIFT THINGS WITHIN. YOU KNOW, WHEN WE PUT A DEAL TOGETHER, AND THEN YOU TURN THAT OVER TO THE REST OF YOU TO . . . 21 22 23 24 25 153 1 FIGURE OUT THE ROUGH EDGES AND TO PUT IT TOGETHER, 2 YOU DON'T NEED US IN THIS ANY LONGER IF WE CAN GET 3 THIS PUT ON PAPER TONIGHT. 4 MR. GRINDSTAFF: ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT IN 5 LI EU OF "APPROX IMATELY II? 6 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YEAH. 7 MR. MARTINEZ: "AP PROX I iv1A TEL Y" I S THE SAME 8 THING AS "MORE OR LESS." 9 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: IT IS, BUT -- 10 MR. MARTINEZ: YOU'RE SAYING SEMANTICS. 11 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WELL, SOME PEOPLE 12 DON'T LIKE "LESS THAN." SOME PEOPLE DON'T LIKE 13 "APPROXIMATELY" BECAUSE IT HAS AN UNEASY FEEL. 14 BUT I'M HERE TO TELL YOU I'VE BEEN A REAL 15 ESTATE BROKER FOR MANY YEARS AND I'LL BET YOU 16 I ANYTHING IT'S POSSIBLE THAT WHEN SCHRIMSHER BOUGHT! THAT PROPERTY, HE BOUGHT IT MOL, MORE OR LESS. 17 18 THAT'S NOT UNTYPICAL. 19 OKAY. SO THAT IF WE HAVE A CERTAIN ELEMENT 20 OF TRUST HERE OVER THIS PERIOD OF TIME THAT WE'VE DEVELOPED, THAT EVERYBODY IS, IN FACT, WORKING TOWARD THE SAME THING, THAT WE'RE ALL ADULTS AND CAPABLE OF IRONING OUT THE FINER DETAILS WITHOUT HAVING TEN PEOPLE DOING IT AT MIDNIGHT, I THINK WE ARE DOWN TO .79 ON THAT AND 26 POINT SOMETHING, . . . 25 154 1 MORE OR LESS. 2 MR. GRINDSTAFF: IT'S 23, BY THE WAY. 3 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I'M SORRY; 23. I 4 WOULD PUT WELL, I WOULD BE PREPARED TO PUT THAT 5 IN A FORM OF A MOTION, BUT I SEE LIGHTS ON. 6 MAYOR PARTYKA: THEY'RE ALL LIGHTS THAT HAVE 7 BEEN ON. COMMISSIONER MCLEOD, I BELIEVE HE'S 8 DONE, RIGHT? 9 MR. MCLEOD: NO. I'D LIKE TO RESPOND TO HER. 10 MAYOR PARTYKA: SURE. IT'S YOUR FLOOR. 11 MR. MCLEOD: I THINK THAT IF YOU'RE GOING TO 12 DO THAT, YOU SHOULD DEFINE WHAT II MORE OR LESS II 13 IS. BECAUSE I THINK IT WOULD BE THE NEXT QUESTION 14 FROM MICHAEL, AND IT DEFINITELY WOULD BE FROM ME, 15 BECAUSE I S II MORE" 1 0 PERCENT OR ilLES Sill 0 16 PERCENT? I THINK IF WE'RE GOING TO GO MORE OR 17 LESS, I THINK WE SHOULD TIE A PERCENTAGE TO THAT, 18 NOT TO EXCEED EITHER WAY 3 PERCENT, 4 PERCENT, 2 19 PERCENT. 20 I THINK MR. SCHRIMSHER PROBABLY WOULD LIKE TO 21 TAKE A MINUTE AND FIND OUT WHAT THAT MEANS ON 2 22 PERCENT OR 3 PERCENT, AND I THINK WE NEED TO AGREE 23 THAT THOSE ARE THE BOUNDARIES THAT WE'RE TELLING 24 EVERYBODY TO GO DEAL IN IF THAT'S WHAT YOU WANT TO DO. ,. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 155 MR. MARTINEZ: SOUNDS GOOD. MR. GRINDSTAFF: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD, IN THAT LINE, WOULD YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THE FACT THAT IF, FOR EXAMPLE, WETLAND PARK SHRINKS BY HALF OF AN ACRE, THAT MEANS THE DEVELOPABLE LAND WITHIN TOWN CENTER INCREASES BY A HALF ACRE AND THAT THAT MIGHT NOT BE A BAD THING? MR. MCLEOD: I WILL HAVE TO GIVE THAT SOME THOUGHT, SIR. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT'S WILD. MR. MCLEOD: NO. I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. OKAY. I UNDERSTAND THAT. I DON'T DISAGREE WITH THAT. DEPENDS WHAT YOU DO WITH -- WHERE THAT HALF ACRE GOES TO, YES. IF IT BECOMES PART OF THE DEVELOPABLE TAX BASE. I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND THAT. BUT WE HAVE GONE AROUND AND AROUND ON THIS THING AND THE THINGS KEEP MOVING. ALL I'M SAYING HERE IS IT'S TIME STOP THE MOVING. LET'S GET THE AGREEMENT TIED DOWN AND LET'S GO ON. THEN IF WE ALL WANT TO COME BACK AND LOOK AT ANOTHER PORTION OF THIS THING, DO SOMETHING WITH IT, THEN IT'S TIME TO DO IT. I'M WILLING TO SAY 3 PERCENT NOW. 3 PERCENT I S PROBABLY, WHAT, .75 OF AN ACRE, PLUS OR MINUS? HAS SOMEBODY GOT A .. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 156 CALCULATOR? MR. BLAKE: THAT'S CORRECT. MR. MCLEOD: IS THAT CORRECT? SO WETLAND PARK COULD SHRINK DOWN TO, WHAT, 22.7 OR SOMETHING, OR IT COULD GO UP TO 24. IN EITHER CASE, WE'RE NOT GOING TO ASK YOU FOR SOMETHING BACK AND YOU'RE NOT GOING TO ASK FOR US. NOW, IF A 4 PERCENT NUMBER IS BETTER FOR YOU, THEN LET'S LAY IT ON THE TABLE. LET'S GET IT WHERE YOU GUYS CAN NEGOTIATE, AND WE'LL GO HOME. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. DOES EVERYBODY AGREE THAT WE SHOULD DO THAT OR NOT? IF NOT MR. MCLEOD: IT'S A MOOT POINT. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: DO THEY WANT TO TAKE A COUPLE MINUTES? MAYOR PARTYKA: WELL, FROM BOTH OF OUR STANDPOINTS -- MR. MARTINEZ: THE SAD PART OF ALL THIS IS THAT WE DECIDED WEEKS AGO THAT WE WOULD PUT AN END TO THIS ISSUE AND THEN THEY COULD SIT DOWN WITH STAFF AND IRON OUT ALL THESE SMALL DETAILS THAT HAVE TO BE WORKED OUT. THIS WAS AGREED UPON, AND NOW WE'RE BACK TO -- NO. MR. MCLEOD: BUT HE'S BASICALLY SAYING YOUR CITY MANAGER WAS GONE, SO WAS YOUR ATTORNEY. ,... . . 157 1 THEREFORE, WE COULDN'T DECIDE. 2 MAYOR PARTYKA: THAT'S THE WHOLE -- 3 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I THINK WE'RE THERE. 4 I REALLY DO. 5 MAYOR PARTYKA: YOU WANTED TO SAY SOMETHING? 6 MR. MCLEMORE: ARE YOU SAYING THAT "MORE OR 7 LESS'I APPLIES TO MAGNOLIA PARK? 8 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: NO. THE WETLANDS. 9 MR. MCLEMORE: IF IT'S NOT GOOD FOR THAT ONE, 10 WHY IS IT GOOD FOR THE OTHER ONE? 11 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WHOSE SIDE ARE YOU ON? 12 MR. MARTINEZ: OUR SIDE. 13 MR. MCLEMORE: I'M ASKING A QUESTION. 14 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THIS IS THE AREA WHERE 15 THEY'RE LOOKING TO GAIN, AND SO THIS IS THE AREA 16 THAT THEY SEE AS IT BEING FLEXIBLE, OKAY, HOPEFULLY TO THEIR BENEFIT. AND I'M NOT 17 18 DISAGREEING WITH THEM. THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING. 19 I THINK WE'VE ALL STATED HERE THAT WE'RE 20 INFLEXIBLE ON THE -- WE NEED THE SIZE OF MAGNOLIA 21 IT'S JUST NOT NEGOTIABLE. PARK. 22 BUT THERE'S SOME AREA OF NEGOTIABILITY HERE 23 ON MOST OF THE COMMISSION MEMBERS ON THE WETLAND 24 PARK. AND I'M TRYING TO GET IT DEFINED INTO WORDS 25 THAT EVERYBODY CAN LIVE WITH, AND COMMISSIONER . . . 21 22 23 24 25 158 1 MCLEOD IS TRYING TO QUALIFY IT WITH A PERCENT. 2 AND I REALLY THINK WE'RE VERY CLOSE HERE. 3 MR. MCLEMORE: YOU HAVE ANOTHER ISSUE, AND 4 THAT ISSUE IS EDGE DRIVE NEEDS TO BE BUILT FOR 5 TRAFFIC CIRCULATION. 6 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THAT'S SOMETHING YOU 7 GUYS CAN HANDLE. 8 MR. MCLEMORE: I DON'T THINK SO, BECAUSE 9 THAT'S A SPECIFIC AMOUNT OF ACREAGE THAT HE 10 DOESN'T WANT TO GIVE UP. AND ACCORDING TO CURRENT 1 PLAN, HE WOULD HAVE TO GIVE IT UP UNLESS HE WOULD 11 12 AGREE TO OFFSET THE SIZE OF MAGNOLIA PARK TO GET 13 THAT AMOUNT OF -- 14 MR. MCLEOD: NO. NO. 15 MR. GRINDSTAFF: YOU MEAN, WETLAND PARK. YOU 16 DIDN'T MEAN MAGNOLIA PARK. 17 MR. MCLEMORE: I MEANT WETLAND PARK. 18 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: BUT THE FINER POINTS 19 YOU CAN BRING BACK TO US IF YOU HAVE TO BRING BACK! , 20 AN AMENDMENT, A CHANGE. BUT WE NEED TO GET SOMETHING SET DOWN. WE'RE AT A POINT WHERE I THINK WE CAN HAVE A MEETING OF THE MINDS OF WHAT WE BASICALLY HAVE IN MIND HERE. BRINGI I I I I AND YOU CAN BACK TO US SUGGESTED REVISIONS, AMENDMENTS, ADDENDUMS, CHANGE ORDERS, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 159 CALL THEM. BUT I THINK WE'RE AT THE POINT NOW WHERE THEY'RE READY TO DEAL AT A STAFF LEVEL, AND WE'RE READY TO HAVE YOU-ALL DEAL AT A STAFF LEVEL. MR. MARTINEZ: WHY ARE YOU WILLING TO COMPROMISE THE COMMISSION? WE ALWAYS HAVE TO GIVE IN OR BUDGE AND THEY DON'T? I CAN'T UNDERSTAND THAT. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I'M NOT SAYING THEY DON'T. I'M JUST SAYING -- MR. MARTINEZ: THEY NEVER HAVE. MAYOR PARTYKA: HOLD IT. HOLD IT. LET'S KEEP IT, YOU KNOW, COURTEOUS AND LET'S NOT GET OUT OF CONTROL. MR. MARTINEZ: LET'S GET THAT OVER WITH. I'M NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR THAT ANYWAY. MAYOR PARTYKA: DO WE WANT TO TAKE A POLL ON THE PERCENTAGE OR DO WE WANT COMMISSIONER GENNELL OR ANY OTHER COMMISSIONER TO MAKE A MOTION TO APPROVE WHATEVER SHE WANTS, AND THEN YOU TAKE A VOTE ON THAT? COMMISSION, DO YOU WANT A POLL ON PERCENTAGES? MR. MARTINEZ: BEFORE THE POLL, I'D LIKE TO HEAR WHAT THE MANAGER'S FINAL POSITION IS ON THIS. MR. MCLEMORE: ON-- MAYOR PARTYKA: HE'S SUGGESTING TO GO BACK . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 160 AND STUDY IT FURTHER. MR. MCLEMORE: WELL, I WANTED TO LOOK AT HOW WE COULD DEAL WITH MAGNOLIA PARK, MAINTAINING THE .79 ACRES, WHATEVER IT IS. AND TRYING TO MAINTAIN EDGE DRIVE IS WHAT I WANTED TO TRY TO FIND OUT, AND THAT'S GOING TO TAKE A LITTLE EXTRA WORK TO DO THAT. MR. MCLEOD: .79 IS THE THING. PUT. 1 ON THE NORTH POINT, ONE ON THE SOUTH. ALL RIGHT. IT'S DONE. LET'S GO ON TO THE NEXT ONE. MR. MCLEMORE: SEEMS LIKE TO ME WITHIN -- IF THAT'S WHAT YOU DO, BUT THEN YOU HAVE THE QUESTION OF EDGE DRIVE. HOW ARE YOU GOING TO SOLVE THAT ISSUE? MR. BLAKE: IF I MAY? MAYOR PARTYKA: YOU MAY, IF IT'S TO RESOLVE THIS. MR. BLAKE: EDGE DRIVE IS NOT A PROBLEM. SIMPLE AS THAT. MR. MCLEOD: OKAY. MR. MCLEMORE: IT'S NOT? MR. BLAKE: NO, IT'S NOT. EDGE DRIVE HAS BEEN ON EVERY SINGLE DRAWING FROM THE BEGINNING. EDGE DRIVE HAS BEEN UNDERSTOOD AS A ROAD THAT WOULD BE THERE FROM THE BEGINNING. AND I DON'T ,. . . 161 1 THINK THAT ANYBODY ON THIS COMMISSION OR ANYBODY 2 THAT'S BEEN INVOLVED WITH THIS FROM THE BEGINNING 3 EVER THOUGHT ABOUT PUTTING EDGE DRIVE ON THE TRAIL 4 PROPERTY. 5 NO OTHER ROAD HAS BEEN PLACED ON THE TRAIL 6 PROPERTY, NO MATTER WHERE THE TRAIL HAPPENS TO 7 BE. AND YES, I THINK THAT WE COULD CERTAINLY 8 ASSIST IN ATTEMPTING TO MAKE A CASE AT THE STATE 9 THAT 25 FEET OR 50 FEET, IF THAT IN FACT IS 100 10 FEET WIDE THERE, OF THAT PROPERTY COULD BE 11 EFFECTIVELY USED AS AN ACCESS WAY TO THE PARK AND 12 FOR THE TRAIL HEAD AND EVERYTHING ELSE. I THINK THAT IF IT GETS TO THE POINT WHERE WEI I NEED TO SIT DOWN AND WORK ON THAT AGAIN, THAT THATI WOULD BE A SEPARATE ISSUE, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE 13 14 15 16 IT'S AN ISSUE TONIGHT. 17 MR. MCLEMORE: BASED ON THAT COMMENT THEN, 18 EDGE DRIVE WOULD HAVE TO BE ANOTHER 50 FEET 19 OUTSIDE OF THE 100 FOOT. 20 MR. BLAKE: I DON'T THINK THAT -- 21 MR. GRINDSTAFF: OUT OF THE PRIVATE SECTOR, 22 INTO THE PUBLIC SECTOR WOULD BE THE REQUEST. 23 MR. BLAKE: MICKEY, I DON'T DISAGREE WITH 24 WHAT YOU SAID AND I UNDERSTAND THAT. I WOULD MUCH I ! ; 25 RATHER HAVE IT -- . . . 162 1 2 , 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. GRINDSTAFF: MOST VALUABLE AREA IN THE WHOLE PLACE, AND YOU WANT TO MAKE IT A ROAD. MR. BLAKE: NO, SIR. IT'S ALWAYS BEEN A ROAD FROM THE BEGINNING. MR. GRINDSTAFF: LOOK AT WHERE IT'S BEEN SCALED TO IN ALL THE DRAWINGS. MR. BLAKE: SIR, I UNDERSTAND WHERE IT MAY SHOW UP ON THIS DRAWING. THAT IS FOR ILLUSTRATIVE PURPOSES ONLY, WHICH HAS OTHER ERRORS IN IT, PERHAPS. I DON'T THINK THERE'S BEEN ANY MISUNDERSTANDING FROM THE BEGINNING, TO GO BACK TWO YEARS, THREE YEARS, FOUR YEARS, HOWEVER LONG YOU WANT TO GO SINCE WE'VE HAD DRAWINGS OF SOME SORT, THAT A ROAD IS NOT GOING TO BE PLACED ON TRAIL PROPERTY. NOW, IF WE CAN FIND SOME WAY TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN -- MR. SCHRIMSHER: HOW DID THE COUNTY BUILD THAT ROAD OVER THERE AT BLACK HAMMOCK TRAIL, A PUBLIC TRAIL? MR. BLAKE: LOOK, I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH YOU. MR. SCHRIMSHER: GOOD. MR. BLAKE: I WILL COMMIT TO YOU THAT ANYTHING I CAN DO AS A COMMISSIONER SITTING UP . . . 163 1 HERE, THAT I WILL WORK TO TRY TO GET AS MUCH OF 2 THAT ROAD AS POSSIBLE ON THAT 50 FEET OF EXTRA 3 RIGHT-OF-WAY THAT'S THERE. BUT IT'S NOT AN ISSUE 4 FOR TONIGHT. THAT'S MY OPINION. 5 MR. GRINDSTAFF: NOR IS A FINAL AGREEMENT. 6 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. LET'S -- WE'VE GOT TO 7 CONCLUDE THIS. WE'VE GOT TEN MINUTES HERE, AND 8 WE'VE GOT TO GET TO A POINT AND GET A MOTION. 9 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE'RE AT AN IMPASSE, 10 MR. MAYOR. YOU CAN CONCLUDE NOW OR YOU CAN 11 CONCLUDE IT TEN MINUTES FROM NOW. IT DOESN'T 12 MATTER. 13 MAYOR PARTYKA: WE'RE NOT AT AN IMPASSE YET, 14 PENDING A MOTION FROM SOMEBODY. 15 SO, NUMBER ONE, THERE'S ONLY TWO ISSUES RIGHT 16 NOW THAT WE STILL ARE HUNG UP. DO WE WANT TO GO 17 WITH PERCENTAGE, PLUS OR MINUS? OR IF WE DON'T 18 WANT TO DO THAT FROM A PUBLIC STANDPOINT, I'M I Tol READY TO TAKE A MOTION FROM A COMMISSIONER HERE ! INCLUDE ANYTHING THAT THEY WANT, AND LET'S THEN 19 20 21 VOTE ON IT. 22 SO DOES ANYBODY WANT TO TALK ON PERCENTAGES, 23 MORE OR LESS? IF NOT, LET'S OPEN UP TO A 24 COMMISSIONER -- AND I GUESS THE LAST PERSON IS 25 COMMISSIONER GENNELL -- AND LET'S MAKE A MOTION. ,. . . 164 1 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: OKAY. I'M NOT 2 PREPARED TO MAKE A MOTION RIGHT NOW, AND I'LL TELL 3 YOU WHY. BECAUSE THIS IS A VERY BIG AGREEMENT 4 HERE, AND I'M NOT IN FAVOR OF US, UNLESS IT'S 5 ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, TO JUST UNILATERALLY MAKE A 6 VOTE ON WHAT WE'RE GOING TO SHOVE DOWN SOMEBODY'S 7 THROAT IF THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR US TO COME 8 TO AN AGREEMENT AND THEN MAKE A MOTION THAT 9 SUPPORTS THE AGREEMENT. 10 NOW, ARE WE ANYWHERE NEAR CLOSE HERE? 11 MR. GRINDSTAFF: NO, MA'AM. 12 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WE'RE NOT? 13 MR. GRINDSTAFF: NO, MA'AM. 14 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WHERE IS THE PROBLEM? 15 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I DON'T NEED TO READ BACK 16 THIS TRANSCRIPT FOR THE LAST HOUR, BUT THEREIN 17 LIES THE PROBLEM. WE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE 18 ACREAGE CALCULATIONS IN LIGHT OF THE MISTAKE 19 PERTAINING TO EDGE DRIVE AND THAT PORTION OF THE 20 IT'S JUST FLAT WRONG. IT'S FLAT WRONG. TRAIL. 21 EVERYBODY IN HERE KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT THE PROBLEM 22 IS, AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO SIT HERE AND JUST SPEND 23 TIME AND PRETEND LIKE THE PASSAGE OF TIME CREATES 24 AN AGREEMENT. IT DOESN'T CREATE AN AGREEMENT. 25 MICHAEL SAID WHAT HE'S WILLING TO DO. RON . . . 165 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 HAD A GOOD IDEA. COMMISSIONER BLAKE HAD A GOOD IDEA. YOU HAD A GOOD IDEA. I MEAN, WE'RE JUST SITTING HERE PRETENDING, LIKE, WITH THE PASSAGE OF TIME, SOMETHING GOOD WILL HAPPEN. MAYOR PARTYKA: MR. GRINDSTAFF, COMMISSIONER, FOR A SECOND. I'M UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT -- TELL ME IF I'M WRONG -- THAT'WHAT THIS POTENTIAL MOTION MIGHT HAVE BEEN IS NOT THE MOTION TO ACCEPT THIS AGREEMENT OR NOT, BUT TO, IN EFFECT, GO WITH COMMISSION -- RATHER, WITH MR. MCLEMORE'S SUGGESTION; AND THAT IS TO GO BACK AND STUDY THIS THING AND LET THE STAFF WORK IT OUT ON A COUPLE OF 14 THESE ISSUES. WAS GOING. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THAT ISN'T WHAT -- I THOUGHT THAT WAS WHERE THIS THING 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MCLEMORE: THAT'S STILL MY RECOMMENDATION. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I THINK THAT'S THE MOST LOGICAL DIRECTION TO HEAD. ANY EFFORT THAT RESULTS IN AN AGREEMENT TONIGHT WILL BE OPPOSED BY THE SCHRIMSHER GROUP. WE'RE NOT GOING TO PASS ON ANY AGREEMENT THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE THAT STUDY. AND IF YOU WANT TO GO AHEAD AND PASS THE ORDINANCE, THEN WE'RE GOING TO VEHEMENTLY CONTEST THE ORDINANCE JUST LIKE -- FOR ALL THE GROUNDS . . . 166 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 WE'VE STATED IN THE PAST. AND THEN WE'LL MOVE ON TO THE NEXT LEVEL, WHICH WILL BE A LOT SLOWER PROCESS THAN THESE MEETINGS, AND THAT WOULD INVOLVED SETTLEMENT NEGOTIATIONS. THAT'S THE ONLY OPTION, IF YOU WANT TO GO AHEAD AND PASS THE AGREEMENT BECAUSE YOU'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME. MR. MCLEOD: I DON'T THINK ANYBODY'S RUNNING OUT OF TIME. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WE'RE NOT RUNNING OUT OF TIME. WE'RE SITTING HERE. WE'RE SITTING HERE TRYING TO WORK THIS THROUGH. WE HAVE ALL -- I THINK WE'VE SAID, COLLECTIVELY AND INDIVIDUALLY, THAT WE DON'T SEE THAT ROAD ISSUE AS SOMETHING THAT WE, THE COMMISSION, NEEDS TO BE INVOLVED IN, BUT RATHER, AS SOMETHING THAT YOU AND STAFF CAN EITHER NEGOTIATE AND NEGOTIATE WITH THE STATE, OR BRING BACK TO US FOR SOME ADDITIONAL, YOU KNOW, STUDY. BUT THAT DOESN'T PRECLUDE US FROM GETTING DOWN ON PAPER TONIGHT ON THE AMOUNT OF ACREAGE ON MAGNOLIA PARK AND WETLAND PARK, AND THEN ALLOWING YOU AND ENCOURAGING YOU TO MOVE FORWARD. BECAUSE EVERY SINGLE TIME I THINK YOU'LL BE THE FIRST ONE TO ADMIT THAT IF WE COME BACK HERE IN TWO WEEKS WITH THIS PART HERE IRONED OUT, . . . 167 1 SURELY AS I'M SITTING HERE, THERE'S GOING TO BE 2 SOMETHING ELSE OVER HERE. WE ALL KNOW THIS, AND I 3 DON'T OBJECT TO IT. 4 ALL I'M SAYING IS WE GET TO A POINT WHERE WE 5 KNOW THAT IT'S GOING TO HIT A STAFF LEVEL WHERE 6 YOU ALL CAN WORK MORE PRODUCTIVELY TOGETHER THAN 7 IN A GROUP LIKE THIS. I THINK THIS IS THE LAST 8 DECISION THAT WE CAN MAKE UP HERE, AND WE'RE 9 SOME OF US ARE IN A CONCESSIONARY MOOD RIGHT NOW 10 TO GET THIS WRITTEN DOWN IN A FORM THAT I WOULD 11 HOPE THAT YOU COULD ACCEPT, TAKING INTO 12 CONSIDERATION CONTINUING WORKING ON THE 13 TRAFFIC-RELATED ISSUES, THE ALIGNMENT, OR 14 WHATEVER. 15 WE ALL KNOW, WE'VE SAID FROM THE BEGINNING, 16 THAT NOT A SINGLE ROAD ON HERE IS CARVED IN STONE, 17 THAT THEY WOULD ALL BE SOME MAY NEVER BE 18 BUILT. WE KNEW THIS. IT'S ON YOUR RECORD. 19 MR. GRINDSTAFF: SPINE ROAD IS. 20 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YEAH. BUT STILL, 21 WHERE IT'S GOING TO BE HAS NEVER BEEN WELL 22 DEFINED. I MEAN, I REALLY DON'T LIKE MAKING A 23 MOTION THAT TELLS YOU WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO. I IF 24 WE CAN GET YOU TO AGREE THAT MAGNOLIA IS .79 AND 25 I THAT THE WETLANDS IS 23 POINT WHATEVER IT IS, MORE! I . . . 21 22 23 24 25 168 1 OR LESS AND WHAT ELSE -- OH, AND THAT IT WAS 2 LIMITED BY SOME PERCENT. 3 AND ,I'M REALLY LOOKING, AT THIS POINT, IF 4 YOU'RE IN AGREEMENT WITH THOSE THINGS, TAKING INTO 5 CONSIDERATION EVERYTHING I'VE SAID ABOUT WORKING 6 TOGETHER WITH THE STAFF AND US SUPPORTING YOUR 7 EFFORTS IN WHATEVER, US WORKING TOGETHER IN 8 PARTNERSHIP FOR THE NEXT SEVERAL YEARS TO GET THIS 9. THING FUNCTIONING THE WAY WE ALL WANT IT, IF 10 YOU'VE GOT ANOTHER PERCENT, AS COMMISSIONER MCLEOD 11 INVITED, COME OUT WITH IT. 12 NOW, IS WHAT I'VE SAID TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE, 13 COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY? 14 MR. SCHRIMSHER: NO, NOT COMPLETELY AND 15 TOTALLY. I THINK WE, AS I SAID, ACKNOWLEDGED 16 MAGNOLIA SQUARE BEING .79 PROVIDED WE HAVE THE 17 OPPORTUNITY TO EXPLORE IT WITH VICTOR, ESPECIALLY 18 THE TRAFFIC-RELATED ISSUES. AND I THINK WE SHOULD ! BE ABLE TO EXPLORE WHETHER OR NOT EDGE DRIVE CAN 19 20 BE ON THE TRAIL RIGHT-OF-WAY. AND MAYBE I'M BEING OPTIMISTIC -- TOO OPTIMISTIC, BUT I THINK AT LEAST A COUPLE PHONE CALLS TO THE FOLKS IN TALLAHASSEE WOULD GIVE US A BETTER CLUE ABOUT THAT. BECAUSE I'M NOT -- I'M NOT PREPARED TO SAY THAT, OH, WELL, NO MATTER WHAT! ,. . . 169 1 THEY SAY, EVEN IF THEY SAY ALL WE'RE GOING TO DO 2 ON THIS 100-FOOT-WIDE SWATH IS PUT A 10-FOOT PAVED 3 LANE AND WE CAN JUST GO WASTE ANOTHER 50 FEET NEXT 4 TO IT, I'M NOT PREPARED TO SAY I'M WILLING TO DO 5 THAT. 6 I DO THINK IT'S PROBABLY POSSIBLE TO AGREE ON 7 A PERCENTAGE. I THINK THE CLOSER WE GET TO 8 PERFECT INFORMATION FROM THE SURVEYORS, THE BETTER 9 WE'D KNOW WHAT THAT IS. BUT IT'S PROBABLY IN THE 10 5 PERCENT RANGE. IT MAY TURN OUT TO NOT NEED TO 11 BE THAT MUCH, BUT THAT'S WHAT MY -- WOULD BE MY 12 GUESS IF I HAD TO SAY TO FEEL SAFE. AND THEY ONLY 13 NEED TO BE 3 OR 4, AND I THINK WE'LL KNOW PRETTY 14 SOON. 15 MR. MARTINEZ: I WAS FIRST. 16 MAYOR PARTYKA: YOU'RE FIRST. OKAY. 17 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WOULD YOU ENCOURAGE ME 18 TO MAKE A MOTION, THEN? 19 MR. MCLEOD: DEPENDS ON WHAT IT IS. 20 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WELL, I'M TRYING 21 YOU KNOW, THIS IS SOMETHING 22 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I APPRECIATE THAT YOU'RE 23 TRYING NOT TO CREATE SOMETHING THAT WE, THEN, HAVE 24 TO LIVE WITH, SO I APPRECIATE WHAT YOU'RE TRYING 25 TO DO. IT'S JUST AN AWKWARD SITUATION FOR ME TO . . . 170 1 DO ANYTHING OTHER THAN SAY, DO WHAT YOU THINK YOU 2 SHOULD DO, AND WE'LL -- 3 MR. BLAKE: SHE'S INVITING YOU TO SUGGEST A 4 MOTION. IT'S YOUR CHANCE. 5 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YES. 6 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I COULD DO THAT? 7 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: IT'S BEEN DONE BEFORE. 8 MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER, YOU HAVE THE 9 FLOOR AND YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU THINK IS BEST AT 10 THIS POINT IN TIME. I MEAN, WE ARE -- EITHER WE 11 HAVE MOTION FOR EXTENSION -- 12 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: OKAY. NOW, LET ME SEE 13 WHAT KIND OF MOTION THAT MR. SCHRIMSHER WOULD 14 SUGGEST. 15 MR. BLAKE: IF I WAS YOUR ATTORNEY, I WOULD 16 TELL YOU NOT TO DO THIS. 17 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I THINK HE DID. 18 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I ALREADY HAVE. YOU'VE GOT 19 TO DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO. I MEAN, THE NEXT THING! 20 YOU KNOW, WE'RE TAIL SPINNING INTO LITIGATION 21 HERE, BECAUSE NO ONE -- WE REACHED AN IMPASSE AND 22 NO ONE CAN GIVE ON ANYTHING. 23 MR. BLAKE: YOU GUYS DON'T WANT TO GO THERE. 24 WE DON'T, EITHER. I LET'S HEAR WHAT HE HASI 25 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: ". . . 171 1 TO SAY. 2 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE WOULDN'T HAVE 200 HOURS 3 IN THIS THING IF -- WE WANTED TO GO THERE A LONG 4 TIME AGO. 5 MAYOR PARTYKA: HOLD IT. THE COMMISSIONER 6 NOW HAS THE FLOOR. I THINK IT IS APPROPRIATE TO 7 GET SOME INPUT FROM MR. SCHRIMSHER. AT SOME POINT 8 IN TIME, THE COMMISSIONER, I THINK, WOULD HAVE TO 9 GO ON HER OWN IF SHE DOES -- OR IF HE DOESN'T WANT 10 TO DO ANYTHING. 11 MR. SCHRIMSHER: MY MOTION WOULD INCLUDE A 12 MAXIMUM FLEXIBILITY FOR US, WHICH WOULD BE THE -- 13 YOU KNOW, REGARDING HOW TO HANDLE EDGE DRIVE, HOW 14 TO BRING THE SPINE ROAD CLOSER TO THE ACTUAL 15 WETLAND BOUNDARIES, AND TO BE ABLE TO EXPLORE A 16 I THAT'sI POSSIBLE DESIGN CHANGE OF MAGNOLIA SQUARE. 17 WHAT MY MOTION WOULD BE. 18 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WITH A MINIMUM OF .79. MR. SCHRIMSHER: WITH A MINIMUM OF .79, RIGHT. BUT I HAVE HEARD A VARIETY OF SHADES OF VIEWS FROM ALL FIVE OF YOU, SO I DON'T THINK I COULD - "- " PICK ONE WAY OF SAYING IT THAT WOULD BE 19 20 21 22 23 24 SATISFACTORY TO ALL. I'D LEAVE YOU TO TRY TO DO 25 THAT. . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . 172 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: ALL RIGHT. OKAY. LET ME TRY THEN. THEN I MAKE A MOTION THAT WE... MR. MCLEMORE: CAN I MAKE A COMMENT? I'M TRYING TO HELP THE COMMISSIONER OUT. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: GO AHEAD. MR. MCLEMORE: I THINK THE ONLY MOTION YOU NEED TO MAKE IS TO GIVE THE STAFF THE OPPORTUNITY TO EXPLORE THIS ISSUE BACK WITH YOUR CONSULTANT AND THE SCHRIMSHERS AND TRY TO BRING YOU BACK A RECOMMENDATION IN TWO WEEKS, HOPEFULLY, IF NOT THE FOLLOWING MEETING, OF HOW TO ADDRESS THE REMAINING ISSUES. I DON'T THINK YOU NEED TO PUT A NUMBER OUT THERE OF HOW MUCH ACREAGE YOU'RE GOING TO BURY. I THINK WE NEED TO LOOK AT ALL THAT. I THINK ONCE THE SURVEY DATA IS IN, WE'LL HAVE DATA TO WORK WITH TO TRY TO RESOLVE IT TO SEE IF WE CAN COME BACK TO YOU WITH AN ANSWER. I DON'T THINK YOU NEED TO FABRICATE ANY MORE THAN THAT. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I'M STILL -- I'M STILL INCLINED TO MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE THINK HE'S RIGHT, FOR WHAT THAT'S WORTH. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: BUT, IN ALL FAIRNESS . . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . 173 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 TO EVERYBODY HERE, AS I SAID BEFORE, THERE WILL BE MORE THINGS COME UP. THERE WILL ALWAYS BE MORE THINGS, AND THEN YOU'LL ALL BE YOU'LL BE OUT THERE REPEATING AGAIN. I WANT TO REITERATE EVERYTHING, ALL MY OBJECTIONS. WE'VE ALWAYS SAID BEFORE AND WE'RE ALWAYS GOING TO BE OPPOSED BECAUSE OF SOMETHING ELSE. 'wE'RE ONLY TRYING TO GET TO THE POINT HERE OF -- MR. MARTINEZ: MAYOR, POINT OF ORDER. MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. POINT OF ORDER. 11 MR. MARTINEZ: I DON'T THINK WE CAN CONTINUE 12 13 WITH THIS UNTIL 3:30 BACK AND FORTH. THEY SAY SOMETHING, SHE SAYS SOMETHING, AND NOBODY MAKES A 14 15 MOTION. NOBODY DECIDES ON WHAT TO DO. TO ADJOURN AGAIN. IT'S TIME 16 18 MAYOR PARTYKA: O~AY. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: MAKING A MOTION. SO -- I'M IN THE MIDDLE OF 17 MR. MARTINEZ: TIME HAS EXPIRED. MAYOR PARTYKA: TIME HAS EXPIRED. HE BRINGS IT'S TIME TO ADJOURN. THE UP A GOOD POINT. MR. MARTINEZ: YOU HAVEN'T MADE ANY MOTION. MAYOR PARTYKA: IS THERE A MOTION TO ADJOURN?I MR. MARTINEZ: YES. THAT'S WHAT I SAID. ,. . . 174 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 I MR. MCLEOD: THERE'S A MOTION TO EXTEND. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: SECOND. MAYOR PARTYKA: WELL, NOW, HE HAS THE FLOOR FIRST. SO THERE WAS A MOTION TO ADJOURN. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: ACTUALLY, I STILL HAVE THE FLOOR. MR. MARTINEZ: BUT I HAVE A POINT OF ORDER AND A MOTION TO ADJOURN. MAYOR PARTYKA: THERE'S A POINT OF ORDER. OKAY. AND THAT TAKES PRECEDENT. SO THERE'S A MOTION TO ADJOURN. IS THERE A SECOND TO THAT MOTION? OKAY. THE MOTION DIES FOR LACK OF A SECOND. MR. MCLEOD: HOUR. I MAKE A MOTION TO EXTEND A HALF 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: SECOND. MAYOR PARTYKA: CALL THE VOTE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. MR. MCLEOD: AYE. THE CLERK: DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MILLER. MR. MILLER: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. MR. MARTINEZ: NAY. ~. . . 23 24 25 175 1 THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER BLAKE. 2 MR. BLAKE: AYE. 3 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. IN LIGHT OF THIS, I 4 URGE THE COMMISSIONER TO MAKE A MOTION TO -- YOU 5 KNOW, WHATEVER SHE THINKS BEST, BUT TO MOVE THIS 6 THING ALONG. 7 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: ONE MORE TIME, I MOVE 8 THAT WE INSTRUCT THE STAFF TO BRING IT BACK TO US 9 IN ITS FINAL FORM IN TWO WEEKS, EXPLORING ALL THE 10 ISSUES AND THE REPRESENTATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE 11 HERE TONIGHT. THAT'S MY MOTION. 12 MAYOR PARTYKA: IS THERE A SECOND TO THAT? 13 OKAY. MOTION WILL DIE FOR LACK OF A SECOND. 14 I'LL ACCEPT ANY OTHER MOTION OR ANY OTHER 15 DISCUSSION AT THIS POINT. 16 COMMISSIONER BLAKE. 17 MR. BLAKE: THANK YOU, MAYOR. MAYOR, I'D 18 LIKE TO MAKE A MOTION TO FIX THE SCHRIMSHER 19 GROUP'S LAND DONATION FOR MAGNOLIA PARK AT 20 POINT -- AT NOT LESS THAN .79 ACRES AND TO ALLOW 21 WETLANDS PARK -- TO FIX THE DONATION OF WETLANDS 22 PARK -- THE AREA OF WETLANDS PARK FROM THE SCHRIMSHER ORGANIZATION TO THE CITY AT 23.36 ACRES, MORE OR LESS, WITH A MAXIMUM VARIANCE OF 4 PERCENT, AND TO INSTRUCT THE CITY MANAGER TO MEET ,. . . 25 176 1 WITH THE SCHRIMSHERS AND THE CITY'S. CONSULTANT TO 2 SUGGEST METHODS TO ACCOMPLISH THE SIZE ADJUSTMENT 3 OF MAGNOLIA PARK. 4 FURTHER, AS PART OF THE AGREEMENT, THE CITY 5 AGREES TO ASSIST IN EVERY WAY POSSIBLE -- I DON'T 6 KNOW IF THAT'S A GOOD WAY TO PUT IT -- WITH THE 7 ATTAINING OF PERMISSION FROM' THE STATE FOR THE 8 APPROPRIATE USAGE OF THE TRAIL PROPERTY THAT 9 CURRENTLY HAS EDGE DRIVE DRAWN ON IT THAT IS DUE 10 SOUTH OF MAGNOLIA PARK. 11 I DON'T KNOW IF THAT CAME OUT RIGHT OR NOT. 12 IS THAT CLEAR? 13 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THAT'S CLEAR. 14 MR. BLAKE: IS THAT CLEAR WHAT I SAID? 15 MR. MCLEMORE: YES. SOUTH OF MAGNOLIA, 16 EAST -- ON THE EASTERN BOUNDARY OF WETLAND PARK. 17 I DO YOUI MR. BLAKE: YES. MR. SCHRIMSHER, DID YOU 18 HEAR EACH OF THOSE POINTS? IS THAT CLEAR? 19 UNDERSTAND WHAT THE MOTION IS THAT I MADE? 20 MR. SCHRIMSHER: YES. 21 MR. BLAKE: I WOULD LEAVE THE MOTION, THEN. 22 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. IS EVERYBODY CLEAR ON 23 THAT MOTION? IF NOT, I'LL GET ANDREA TO REPEAT 24 IT. MR. MCLEOD: I THINK THE ONLY THING I HAD ,. . . 22 23 24 25 177 1 WOULD BE ABOUT THE LAST SENTENCE AND A HALF, THE 2 LAST SENTENCE. 3 MAYOR PARTYKA: COULD YOU EXPLAIN THAT LAST 4 SECTION ONE MORE TIME FOR CLARIFICATION? 5 MR. BLAKE: FOR CLARIFICATION, ALL I'M 6 SUGGESTING IS THAT I THINK WE, AT THE CITY, 7 UNDERSTAND THAT WE NEED TO HAVE SOME SORT OF 8 CIRCULATION ELEMENT THAT'S ON THE WESTERN BOUNDARY 9 OF WETLAND PARK, SOUTH OF MAGNOLIA PARK. AND I 10 THINK WE, AT THE CITY, UNDERSTAND THAT, CURRENTLY, 11 THE ROAD, EDGE ROAD, THAT'S DRAWN THERE IS DRAWN 12 IN THE AREA WHERE THE TRAIL RIGHT-OF-WAY CURRENTLY/ EXISTS. I 13 14 WE ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT THE STATE DOES NOT 15 ALLOW ROADS TO BE PLACED ON PROPERTY SUCH AS 16 THAT. I'M SUGGESTING THAT WE, AT THE CITY, WOULD 17 ASSIST THE SCHRIMSHER ORGANIZATION TO THE GREATEST 18 EXTENT POSSIBLE IN GETTING PERMISSION FROM THE 19 STATE, WHICHEVER BODY IT MAY BE IN ORDER TO GET 20 PERMISSION, TO HAVE A ROADWAY AS IS CURRENTLY 21 DRAWN ON THAT PROPERTY. IN OTHER WORDS, THE STATE, AS A GENERAL PURPOSE, ISN'T GOING TO ALLOW TRAFFIC. FROM A DEVELOPER, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO ALLOW TRAFFIC THERE. HAVING A GOVERNMENTAL ENTITY INVOLVED, .. . . 25 178 1 WHETHER IT BE THE CITY, WHETHER WE CAN BRING THE 2 COUNTY INTO IT TO ASSIST, AS WELL, PERHAPS THERE 3 MAY BE SOME OTHER OPPORTUNITIES FOR LAND SWAPS 4 ELSEWHERE THAT WOULD WORK TO THE BENEFIT OF ALL. 5 I HAVE SOME IDEAS THERE. 6 I THINK THERE ARE SOME OPPORTUNITIES THERE TO 7 MAKE THAT WORK AND HAVE THE LOWEST LEVEL OF IMPACT 8 ON THAT PARCEL FOR DEVELOPMENT PURPOSES ON THE 9 SCHRIMSHERS. 10 REALLY, WHAT IT COMES DOWN TO IS THAT ISSUE, 11 WE'RE RECOGNIZING THAT IT EXISTS AND THAT IT'S NOT 12 GOING TO BE SOLVED HERE. BUT I THINK WE'RE 13 ALIGNED CORRECTLY TOGETHER ON THAT ISSUE AND, YOU I KNOW, WE PLEDGE THAT WE'RE GOING TO WORK WITH YOU.! I MAYOR PARTYKA: I'M GOING TO DO THIS. FROM A! I MOTION STANDPOINT, IT'S VERY UNWIELDY, VERY 14 15 16 17 COMPLICATED. I NEED A LITTLE HELP ON THIS. I 18 KNOW THERE'S A COUPLE OF POINTS HERE. 19 I KEyl I ANTHONY, CAN YOU I NEED YOUR HELP ON 20 THIS. THERE'S A COUPLE POINTS I GOT. I MEAN, 21 POINTS ARE .79, PLUS OR MINUS 4, AND 23.36 AND A 22 COUPLE -- WE LOST IT, THOUGH, IN TERMS OF THE EDGE 23 DRIVE PROPERTIES EXCHANGE, REVIEW, WHATEVER YOU 24 WANT TO CALL IT. HOW CAN YOU FRAME THIS MOTION IN A SIMPLER . . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . 179 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 WAY? MR. GARGANESE: THE WHOLE MOTION? MAYOR PARTYKA: THE WHOLE MOTION, OR YOU CAN BREAK IT INTO TWO PARTS, ANY WAY THAT MAKES SENSE. BECAUSE I THINK THAT IT'S NOT UNDERSTANDABLE. MR. GARGANESE: THERE ARE FOUR COMPONENTS TO THE MOTION. MR. MCLEOD: I UNDERSTAND IT. MAYOR PARTYKA: YOU DO? MR. MCLEOD: YES. MAYOR PARTYKA: GOOD. DO IT FOR ME. EXPLAIN IT TO ME ONE MORE TIME. I KIND OF UNDERSTAND IT. FROM THE PRINCIPLE STANDPOINT, JUST, AGAIN, DO IT ONE MORE TIME FOR CLARIFICATION FOR EVERYBODY. MR. GARGANESE: OKAY. I'LL GIVE IT A SHOT. MAGNOLIA PARK, NOT LESS THAN POINT .79 ACRES; WETLAND PARK, 23.36 ACRES, MORE OR LESS WITH A 4 PERCENT MAXIMUM VARIANCE; CITY MANAGER TO MEET WITH SCHRIMSHER AND CONSULTANT TO RECONFIGURE MAGNOLIA PARK AND ASSIST SCHRIMSHER ORGANIZATION TO GREATEST EXTENT POSSIBLE TO HAVE EDGE DRIVE BUILT ON, I GUESS, THE CSX RAILROAD -- FORMER CSX RAILROAD. MR. MCLEOD: HE SAID RIGHT-OF-WAY, BUT IT'S 14 15 16 17 18 'c. . 20 21 22 23 24 . 25 180 1 NOT 2 MR. GARGANESE: RIGHT-OF-WAY SOUTH OF 3 MAGNOLIA PARK AND EAST OF THE PAVED PORTION. 4 MAYOR PARTYKA: I UNDERSTAND THAT. 5 DOES EVERYBODY UNDERSTAND THAT? CO'MMISSIONER 6 GENNELL. 7 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: DOES YOUR MOTION 8 INCLUDE BRINGING IT BACK IN ITS FINAL FORM IN TWO 9 WEEKS? 10 MR. BLAKE: I DIDN'T SPECIFICALLY SAY THAT, 11 BUT IT'S UNDERSTOOD THAT THEY HAVE TO BRING THE 12 I WELL, I'LL SECOND YOUR/ I I I I DISCUSSION, I I ; AGREEMENT BACK TO US FOR APPROVAL. 13 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: 14 MOTION FOR DISCUSSION. 15 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. SECOND. 16 COMMISSIONER GENNELL. 17 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THAT IS IF, TWO WEEKS 18 FROM NOW, ARE WE GOING TO BE HELD UP BECAUSE 19 EVERYBODY'S TALKING WITH THE STATE AND TALKING TO THIS ONE OR TALKING TO THAT ONE? AND WE HAVE AN OAK FOREST WALL MEETING AND WE HAVE A PENSION MEETING AND ALL THESE OTHER THINGS TO GET INVOLVEDI IN. MR. BLAKE: NO. MY RESPONSE TO THAT IS NO, IN TERMS OF THE EDGE DRIVE ISSUE. BECAUSE ALL ,. . . 23 24 25 181 1 WE'RE SAYING IS THAT THAT'S STILL A LIVE ISSUE 2 THAT WE'RE WILLING TO WORK TOGETHER ON FOR THE 3 SAME OUTCOME. THERE, YOU'RE TALKING SIX MONTHS. 4 IT'S A LENGTHY PROCESS TO GO -- YOU KNOW, AS YOU 5 WELL KNOW, BEING INVOLVED WITH THE TRAILS. 6 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. ANY OTHER DISCUSSION? 7 CALL THE VOTE. 8 MR. MCLEMORE: I'M SORRY. DISCUSSION. 9 MAYOR PARTYKA: OH, DISCUSSION. 10 MR. MCLEMORE: THERE WERE FOUR ADDITIONAL 11 ISSUES THAT WAS ON THIS PAPER. AND THE QUESTION 12 IS: DO YOU WANT TO VOTE ON THIS BEFORE WE HAVE AN 13 UNDERSTANDING OF THESE OTHER ISSUES? 14 MR. GRINDSTAFF: ISSUES WHERE WE DIDN'T HAVE 15 AN UNDERSTANDING? 16 MR. MCLEMORE: YES. I'M TALKING ABOUT -- 17 MR. BLAKE: THEY GO AWAY. 18 OH, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THEI I MR. GRINDSTAFF: 19 BLACK LINE. OKAY. 20 MR. MCLEMORE: THE AG THING. 21 MR. BLAKE: THE AG THING, WE DON'T HAVE 22 ANYTHING TO DO WITH. MAYOR PARTYKA: WELL, HOLD IT. HOLD IT. THERE IS THE MOTION ON THE FLOOR AT THIS POINT, AND WITHOUT ANYTHING ADDITIONAL, RIGHT? SO EITHER ~. . . 20 21 22 23 24 25 182 1 WE ACT ON THIS RIGHT NOW, AND YOU, IN EFFECT, VOTE IT DOWN BECAUSE IT'S NOT COMPLETE, OR YOU PUT INTO 2 3 PLAY AND THEN WE FINISH UP THE DISCUSSION WITH 4 THESE OTHER POINTS. 5 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: MR. MAYOR. 6 MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER GENNELL. 7 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WE'RE ON DISCUSSION OF 8 THE MOTION, AND THESE THINGS CAN ATTACH TO THE MOTION BY WAY OF AMENDMENT. LET'S JUST DEAL WITH 9 10 THEM. 11 MAYOR PARTYKA: ABSOLUTELY. BUT SOMEONE 12 WOULD HAVE TO DO THAT, THOUGH. SEE, BECAUSE RIGHT 13 NOW, THE DISCUSSION HAS TO BE ADDED. YOU CAN'T 14 HAVE A DISCUSSION ON TWO DIFFERENT POINTS. I 15 MEAN, SOMEONE WOULD HAVE TO MAKE A MOTION ON THE AMENDMENT FOR US TO HAVE A DISCUSSION ON THE 16 17 AMENDMENT. BUT RIGHT NOW, WE DON'T HAVE AN 18 AMENDMENT. WE HAVE A MOTION AND WE HAVE THAT ON 19 THE MOTION. MR. MCLEOD: BUT WE CAN MAKE A MOTION TO AMEND, RIGHT? MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. THAT'S WHAT I'M LOOKING FOR. MR. BLAKE: MAYOR, THE OTHER ISSUES THAT EXIST, I THINK, ARE REALLY MINOR, . . . 24 25 183 1 EASY-TO-NAIL-DOWN ISSUES. FOR INSTANCE, BUILDING 2 THE ROAD -- FAMOUS LAST WORDS -- THE QUESTION OF 3 THE TWO YEARS FROM THE DATE OF THE AGREEMENT TO 4 HAVE THE ROAD DONE AND 5 MAYOR PARTYKA: AGAIN, I UNDERSTAND. ALL I 6 OPPOSE IS, AGAIN, PROCEDURAL ISSUES. IF IT'S A 7 RELATIVELY SIMPLE THING, ACT ON THIS MOTION. GET 8 IT DONE. MAKE AN AMENDMENT. 9 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I'LL MAKE AN 10 AMENDMENT. 11 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. 12 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THAT WE INCLUDE OTHER 13 ISSUES IN THIS MOTION. THAT'S MY MOTION. 14 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. IS THERE A SECOND TO 15 THAT? IF ANYONE UNDERSTANDS THAT, IT WILL TAKE A 16 SECOND. 17 MR. MCLEOD: I'LL SECOND THAT. WHY NOT? 18 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. LET'S GET A 19 DISCUSSION. WHAT OTHER ISSUES? 20 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: MR. MCLEMORE. 21 MR. MCLEMORE: I THINK WHAT WE NEED IS SOME 22 INDICATION FROM THE SCHRIMSHERS ON 4-D, THE 23 LANGUAGE THE ISSUE WE BROUGHT UP AND THE LANGUAGE WE OFFERED RELATIVE TO THE MAIN STREET. DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT SUGGESTED ,. . . 22 23 24 25 184 1 LANGUAGE? 2 MR. GRINDSTAFF: 4-D? 3 MR. MCLEMORE: THIS IS THE ONE ABOUT MAIN 4 STREET AND THE TWO-YEAR PROBLEM. IT'S 5-D. I'M 5 SORRY. THAT'S MY MEMORANDUM OF MAY THE 5TH. 6 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I SPOKE WITH YOU AND ANTHONY 7 TODAY ABOUT IT. AND MIKE AND I HAVEN'T GOTTEN 8 SPECIFICALLY INTO IT. 9 BUT YOUR SUGGESTION WAS THAT YOU WOULD 10 COMMENCE, WITHIN 90 DAYS, DESIGNING, PERMITTING, 11 ENGINEERING. AND THEN YOU WOULD COMMENCE 12 CONSTRUCTION AS SOON AS YOU CAN AND DILIGENTLY 13 PURSUE CONSTRUCTION WITH A GOAL OF COMPLETING 14 WITHIN TWO YEARS; IS THAT ACCURATE? 15 MR. MCLEMORE: WE WOULD MAKE A GOOD FAITH 16 EFFORT TO GET IT DONE IN TWO YEARS. 17 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE HAD SUGGESTED 18 "DILIGENTLY. II 19 MR. MCLEMORE: SURE. I THINK IT WOULD BE THE 20 SAME THING. 21 MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT YOU WOULD -- LET ME JUST READ WHAT I HAD SCRATCHED IN THE MARGIN, BECAUSE I TOLD YOU GUYS I'D TRY TO MAKE IT CONSISTENT WITH THE OTHER PARAGRAPH. LISTEN TO THIS. STARTING AT THE BOTTOM OF D, ,. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 185 PAGE 8, THE CITY ALSO AGREES THAT, AT ITS EXPENSE, TO DESIGN, ENGINEER, PERMIT, SURVEY, AND CONSTRUCT THE MAIN STREET IMPROVEMENTS SUBSTANTIALLY WITHIN THE ALIGNMENT SHOWN ON EXHIBIT A -- THAT WAS SO YOU COULD ADDRESS YOUR MCDONALD'S ISSUE -- PERIOD. THE CITY ALSO AGREES TO PROMPTLY COMMENCE THE DESIGN, ENGINEERING, PERMITTING WITHIN 90 DAYS OF THE EFFECTIVE DATE OF THIS AGREEMENT AND TO MAKE A GOOD FAITH EFFORT TO COMMENCE CONSTRUCTION AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AND TO DILIGENTLY PURSUE AND COMPLETE CONSTRUCTION WITHIN TWO YEARS. I MEAN, I THINK THAT'S WHAT YOU MEANT, AND THAT IS CONSISTENT. MR. MCLEMORE: I THINK IT MEANS THE SAME THING. IT'S JUST TWO DIFFERENT WORDS. MR. GRINDSTAFF: YEAH. I WAS TRYING TO FOLLOW THE SAME LANGUAGE THAT WE USED ELSEWHERE. MR. MCLEMORE: OKAY. AND I THINK, AS FAR AS THE AG CLASSIFICATION, WE AGREED THAT WE DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT AS LONG AS THE COMMISSION DOESN'T. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I DIDN'T THINK YOU WOULD. I JUST WANTED TO BE SURE THAT WE HAD IT IN THERE. MR. BLAKE: WE DON'T HAVE ANY SAY ABOUT THAT. . ~ . . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 186 1 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WELL -- AND I WOULD AGREE 2 WITH YOU IN TERMS OF WHETHER WE ARE QUALIFIED FOR 3 THE CLASSIFICATION. WHAT WE DON'T WANT IS SOME 4 SORT OF ARGUMENT OVER, WELL, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T 5 DO THAT. 6 MR. BLAKE: ALL I'M SAYING IS IT'S NOT OUR 7 DOG. 8 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I HEAR YOU. YOU CAN'T GRANT 9 THAT OR DENY IT. BUT WE DON'T WANT YOU OPPOSING 10 IT. 11 RIGHT NOW, WE'VE GOT C-l ZONING AND WE'RE 12 OPERATING -- WHATEVER WE'VE GOT THERE AS WE WIND 13 DOWN INTO A TOWN CENTER DEVELOPMENT, WE WANT TO 14 MAINTAIN OUR AG CLASSIFICATION AND OUR AG USE 15 WITHOUT HAVING SOME SORT OF OBJECTION FROM THE 16 CITY. 17 MAYOR PARTYKA: QUESTION. 18 MR. BLAKE: THAT'S A SIGNIFICANT ONE FOR YOU, RIGHT? MR. GRINDSTAFF: IT IS SIGNIFICANT. I MEAN, I CAN TELL YOU. THAT IS OTHERWISE, IT WOULD BE A DEAL KILLER. AND IT WENT WITHOUT SAYING FOR SO LONG' -- I MEAN, THE OBVIOUS -- I TRULY BELIEVE IT IS STATING THE OBVIOUS. IF THERE IS A PROBLEM, WE NEED TO KNOW NOW. I DON'T THINK THERE IS, BUT WE ~. . 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 - 23 24 25 . 187 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 WANT TO CLARIFY IT AND CLARIFY IT NOW. SAME WITH THE NEXT PROVISION ABOUT CONFLICTS. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. LET ME START WITH THIS ONE JUST SO WE GET THIS OFF THE TABLE. FROM A LEGAL STANDPOINT, MR. GARGANESE, ANY PROBLEM WITH THIS SUGGESTION, KEEPING THAT AGRICULTURAL CLASSIFICATION? MR. GARGANESE: NO. AS LONG AS IT'S CLEAR THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE WINDING DOWN THE AGRICULTURAL USE OF THE PROPERTY. MR. GRINDSTAFF: IF WE'RE SITTING THERE WAITING FOR THE NEXT TOWN CENTER DEVELOPER TO COME HERE FOR 48 YEARS, THEN WE WOULD LIKE TO MAINTAIN OUR CATTLE OPERATION. IF HE SHOWS UP THERE TOMORROW AND WANTS TO JUMP IN AS QUICKLY AS HE CAN, TEEN HE'S GOING TO BE MORE VALUABLE THAN A COW. MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL RIGHT. COMMISSIONER. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: MR. MAYOR, I'LL INCLUDE THAT AS AN AMENDMENT, THAT THE CITY WILL NOT OPPOSE THE AGRICULTURAL DESIGNATION. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THERE'S LANGUAGE IN THERE. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. NEXT ONE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THE NEXT ONE IS THE MR. MCLEMORE: THE CONFLICTS ISSUE. I THINK . ~ . . 21 22 23 24 25 188 1 WE'VE WORKED OUT THE LANGUAGE WHERE WE CAN AGREE 2 ON THIS. 3 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE DID. 4 MR. GARGANESE: WE VERBALLY WORKED IT OUT. 5 MR. MCLEMORE: THE OTHER ONE IS WE NEED TO 6 WORK OUT SOME LANGUAGE -- DO YOU AGREE TO US 7 WORKING OUT THE LANGUAGE THAT SOLVES THE PROBLEM 8 WE RAISED RELATIVE TO PARK NUMBER 5? 9 MR. GRINDSTAFF: PARK NUMBER 5. OH, YES. 10 YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE ROADWAYS. 11 MR. MCLEMORE: IT'S GOING TO BE CONSTRUED 12 THAT THOSE ROADWAYS ARE REDUCING THE ACREAGE OF 13 PARK NUMBER 5. 14 MR. SCHRIMSHER: WHAT I NOTICE ON, THIS 15 DRAWING, THE DRAWING NUMBER 5 KEEPS LEAVING OUT 16 THE FACT THAT THERE'S AN L-SHAPED ROAD AROUND THE 17 NORTH AND WEST SIDE. WELL, SOMETIMES IT SHOWS AND 18 SOMETIMES IT DOESN'T. 19 MR. MCLEMORE: WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS THAT THE 20 AREA WITHIN THE BLACK LINE IS THE ACREAGE STATED. MR. SCHRIMSHER: RIGHT. AND IT SHOULD INCLUDE, THOUGH IT DOESN'T INCLUDE THE BLUE STREET SOUTH OF IT OR THE PINK STREET EAST OF IT, BUT IT SHOULD BE SHOWING, JUST LIKE ALL THE OTHERSI DO, THE NECESSARY ROADWAY AROUND THE OTHER -- THE .. . 19 20 . 21 22 23 24 25 189 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 WEST AND NORTH SIDE. MR. MCLEMORE: I DON'T THINK THERE IS A ROADWAY FOR THAT ONE. MR. BLAKE: NORTHWEST SIDE. MR. SCHRIMSHER: NORTHWEST AND NORTHEAST. MR. BLAKE: THERE ISN'T ONE. MAYOR PARTYKA: WHAT IS THAT CALLED? IS THAT AN "LII OR A "U"? MR. SCHRIMSHER: I MEAN, IF YOU LOOK IN VICTOR'S -- AND I THINK IT'S JUST AN OVERSIGHT, BUT IF YOU LOOK ON HIS, THE NEW PAGE 17, YOU CAN SEE THAT THERE IS AN L-SHAPED ROAD AROUND NUMBER 5. BECAUSE EVERY ONE OF THESE SQUARES 14 15 16 17 18 CONSISTENTLY HAS A ROAD AROUND ALL SIDES. JUST WHETHER MR. MCLEOD: THAT'S SITTING ON A MAJOR CORNER. WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT? MR. SCHRIMSHER: OTHERWISE THE BUILDINGS THATI ARE SHOWN FRONTING ON IT DON'T GET TO FRONT ON IT; IT'S I MEAN, IF THERE'S NOT A ROAD IN FRONT OF IT. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: BUT THEY'RE ALREADY FRONTING ON THE OTHER CORNER. MR. SCHRIMSHER: I'M JUST LOOKING AT THE PICTURE AND I JUST DREW IT IN THERE. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. ~. . . 190 1 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I THINK YOU CAN ASK 2 VICTOR -- DON'T TAKE MY WORD FOR IT, BUT THESE 3 SMALL NEIGHBORHOOD SQUARES ARE SUPPOSED TO HAVE 4 IN EVERY CASE, HAVE A ROAD ON ALL SIDES. 5 MR. GRINDSTAFF: AS WE'RE WORKING WITH VICTOR 6 ON MAGNOLIA PARK, LET'S FIND OUT IF THAT'S GOT A 7 LITTLE ROAD ON THE NORTH SIDE OF IT AND WEST SIDE 8 OF IT. 9 MR. SCHRIMSHER: THE TWO SIDES JUST DON'T -- 10 MR. GRINDSTAFF: BECAUSE IF IT DOESN'T, THIS 11 DRAWING, EXHIBIT A, IS INCONSISTENT WITH PAGE 17. 12 MR. SCHRIMSHER: RIGHT. 13 MAYOR PARTYKA: NOW, THIS IS THE MOST 14 IMPORTANT PART OF THIS, THE ACREAGE. ISN'T THAT 15 THE ISSUE? 16 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WHERE THE ROADS ARE. 17 BECAUSE WE ACKNOWLEDGE THAT NO PART OF THE BLUE 18 STREET OR THE PINK TRAIL IS INTENDED TO BE 19 i I BUT IF THERE'S ONE OF THOSE LITTLE PERIMETER I ROADS AROUND 5 AS THERE IS AROUND 4, 4 THEN SHOULDI I I INCLUDED IN FOUR OR FIVE ACREAGE CALCULATIONS. 20 21 22 BE INCLUDED. 23 MR. SCHRIMSHER: 4 HAS IT ON THREE SIDES AND 24 5 HAS IT ON TWO, BECAUSE 4 FRONTS ON ONE ROAD 25 ONLY, AND 5 FRONTS ON TWO. . . . 191 1 MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL RIGHT. COMMISSIONER, DO 2 YOU WANT TO ADD THAT TO THE AMENDMENT? 3 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YES. YES. 4 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. 5 MR. MILLER: MR. MAYOR. 6 MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. 7 MR. MILLER: I'D JUST LIKE TO ASK 8 MR. GRINDSTAFF A QUESTION. HE'S REFERRING TO A 9 PAGE IN THIS DOCUMENT, PUTTING A LOT OF CREDENCE 10 IN WHAT I WOULD CONSIDER AN ARTIST CONCEPT. 11 IF YOU LOOK AT PAGE 13, IT CLEARLY SHOWS THE 12 SEPARATION OF THE TRAIL AND THE ROAD THAT RUNS 13 ALONG EDGE DRIVE. THE ROAD IS NOT ON THE 14 RIGHT-OF-WAY. THERE'S A LOT OF CONFUSION. IT 15 DOESN'T SEEM TO BE ACCORDING TO VICTOR DOVER'S. 16 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WHERE IS THAT? 17 MR. MILLER: PAGE 13, THE COLOR PICTURE ON 18 THE LEFT-HAND SIDE, THE MIDDLE OF THE PAGE. 19 MR. SCHRIMSHER: THIS PICTURE DOESN'T SHOW 20 THE RIGHT-OF-WAY. 21 MR. MILLER: NO. I UNDERSTAND THAT. BUT IT 22 DOES SHOW THE TRAIL RIGHT DOWN BEHIND THE PARK. 23 SO AGAIN, I WANT TO POINT OUT THAT, ON ONE HAND, 24 YOU'RE PLAYING THIS AS BEING A VERY IMPORTANT 25 CONFUSION. ,. '. . 192 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I THINK YOU MISUNDERSTAND. MR. MILLER: AND ON THIS ONE, IT CLEARLY SHOWS THE TRAIL AS A SEPARATE ROAD. MR. GRINDSTAFF: IN FACT, I APPRECIATE YOU POINTING THAT OUT. IT SHOWS THE TRAIL. MR. MILLER: SEPARATE FROM THE ROAD. MR. SCHRIMSHER: WE'VE NEVER SAID THEY WERE ON TOP OF EACH OTHER. MR. MILLER: I UNDERSTAND. BUT THIS WAS ALWAYS MEANT TO BE -- MR. SCHRIMSHER: IT ALSO SHOWS YOUR GAZEBO RIGHT ON THE TRAIL RIGHT-OF-WAY. MR. BLAKE: NO, MR. SCHRIMSHER: IT DOESN'T. YES, IT DOES. GET OUT A 24 RULER. MR. MILLER: THE POINT IS, THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT -- MR. GRINDSTAFF: IT'S NOT A GOOD POINT IF YOU SCALE IT, SIR. MR. MILLER: I KNOW. BUT YOU'RE BRINGING UP ONE POINT THAT IT'S CLEAR PROOF TO BACK UP YOUR POINT OF CONCLUSION WAS IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE AN EXAMPLE. AND YOU'RE SAYING MR. GRINDSTAFF: WELL, WE'VE ALL BEEN SAYING THAT FOR YEARS, PROBABLY. 25 ,~. . . 193 1 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I CAN ALSO, WHILE WE'RE 2 LOOKING AT THIS, POINT OUT -- 3 MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL RIGHT. ALL RIGHT. WE'RE 4 DONE ON THAT. 5 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I MOVE TO POLL THE 6 QUESTION. 7 MR. SCHRIMSHER: YOU'RE CONFUSED AND 8 MISUNDERSTANDING WHAT I'M SAYING. 9 MAYOR PARTYKA: PLEASE. PLEASE. THIS 10 HAPPENS ALL THE TIME AT THIS STAGE. 11 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I'LL BE GLAD TO TALK IT OUT 12 ONE ON ONE. 13 MAYOR PARTYKA: THERE IS AN AMENDMENT WITH 14 THE KEY POINTS ON THE AMENDMENT, AS COMMISSIONER 15 GENNELL STATED. 16 MR. BLAKE: SECOND. 17 MAYOR PARTYKA: AND WE'RE LOOKING FOR A 18 SECOND THAT WAS SECONDED BY COMMISSIONER BLAKE. ::'9 ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION? IF NOT, CALL THE 20 VOTE. 21 THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. 22 MR. MCLEOD: AYE. 23 THE CLERK: DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL. 24 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THIS IS ON THE 25 AMENDMENT? ,. . . 194 1 MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MILLER. 2 3 4 MR. MILLER: AYE. 5 6 THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER BLAKE. MR. BLAKE: AYE. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. AMENDMENT PASSES. NOW, A MOTION -- RATHER, A VOTE ON THE MAIN MOTION. THE CLERK: DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER BLAKE. 7 8 9 10 11 . 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 MR. BLAKE: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. MR. MCLEOD: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MILLER. MR. MILLER: AYE. MAYOR PARTYKA: MOTION PASSES. 21 MR. BLAKE: THAT'S EXACTLY WHERE WE WERE TWO HOURS AGO. MR. SCHRIMSHER: NOT EXACTLY. MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL RIGHT. AT THIS POINT, 22 23 24 25 CITY MANAGER, IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE ON THIS OTHER THAN TO GO BACK WITH THESE PEOPLE AND THE STAFF TO RESOLVE THE LAST FEW ". .... . . 195 1 ISSUES? 2 MR. MCLEMORE: WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO BRING 3 BACK A RECOMMENDATION. I CAN'T TELL YOU WE'LL GET 4 THERE. WE'RE GOING TO TRY. 5 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: MR. MAYOR. 6 MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. 7 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WE HAVE ITEM A UNDER 8 PUBLIC HEARING. 9 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. LET'S GO UNDER A. LET 10 ME READ THAT REAL FAST. 11 MR. BLAKE: I'LL MAKE A MOTION TO -- IN FACT, 12 I'LL BE GLAD TO, IF YOU'LL ALLOW ME. 13 MAYOR PARTYKA: YOU MAY. 14 MR. BLAKE: I'D LIKE TO MAKE A MOTION TO 15 POSTPONE PUBLIC HEARING ITEM A ON THE TOWN CENTER CODE UNTIL THE NEXT MEETING ON MAY -- LET'S SEE --I 22ND; IS THAT RIGHT -- MAY 22, 2000, AT 6:30 P.M. I 16 17 18 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. IS THERE A SECOND TO 19 THAT? 20 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I'LL SECOND. I CALLi I ~ 21 MAYOR PARTYKA: ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION? 22 THE VOTE, PLEASE. 23 THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MILLER. 24 MR. MILLER: AYE. 25 THE CLERK: DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL. ~. . . 196 1 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: AYE. 2 THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. 3 MR. MCLEOD: AYE. 4 THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER BLAKE. 5 MR. BLAKE: AYE. 6 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. AT.THIS POINT, I WOULD 7 LIKE TO ADJOURN THIS MEETING. ANY PROBLEMS WITH 8 THAT? OKAY. ADJOURNING THE MEETING. 9 (WHEREUPON, THE MEETING WAS CONCLUDED AT 1:30 A.M.) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ~. . . 197 1 2 3 4 CERTIFICATE OF OATH 5 6 7 STATE OF FLORIDA) 8 COUNTY OF ORANGE) 9 10 I, SANDRA A. MOSER, REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTER, CERTIFY THAT I WAS AUTHORIZED TO AND DID 11 STENOGRAPHICALLY REPORT THE FOREGOING PROCEEDING AND THAT THE TRANSCRIPT IS A TRUE RECORD. 12 I FURTHER CERTIFY THAT I AM NOT A RELATIVE, 13 EMPLOYEE, ATTORNEY OR COUNSEL OF ANY OF THE PARTIES, NOR AM I FINANCIALLY INTERESTED IN THE ACTION. 14 15 DATED THIS 23RD DAY OF MAY, 2000. 16 17 \;:5a';.lJ:\,\0~) Q.\\~\~f.. 18 SANDRA A. MOSER, R.P.R. 19 NOTARY PUBLIC- STATE OF FLORIDA 20 21 22 .*.....::......, SANDRA A, MOSER f.r~. ~~ MY COMMISSION # CC 733210 ~ .: 1 EXPIRES: April 12, 2002 ~iff.. .. Bonded lhru Nolary Public Undetwritars 23 24 25 NEIGHBORHOOD PARKS 0.45 AC 0 0.42 AC 0.44 AC @ 0.44 AC Omitted LAKE TRAIL PARK @ 0.85 AC MAGNOLIA PARK 0 0.79 AC WETLANDS If8\ 19.5 AC WETLANDS PARK ~3.86 AC UPLANDS TRAIL ENTRANCE @ 0.15 AC . 5/8/2000 ~,..rl""'ll . I " '00 _ _ EXHIB IT " A" . . .. EXISTING TRAIL ALlGNME~n _ _ UNPAVED TRAIL ....... PAVED TRAIL SPINE ROAD (COLLECTOR) - . _ EDGE DRIVE . . . CROSS SEMINOLE TRAIL STREET MAIN STREET (j ~ \ ImTM Registe,ed Professional Reporter COpy TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS, FLORIDA CITY COMMISSION- REGULAR MEETING 1 TRANSCRIPT OF REGULAR MEETING HELD ON MAY 2 , 2000, BEGINNING AT 6:30 P.M. AT CITY COMMISSION CHAMBERS, 1126 EAST STATE ROAD 434, WINTER SPRINGS, FLORIDA, AND REPORTED BY SANDRA A. MOSER, REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTER AND NOTARY PUBLIC, STATE OF FLORIDA AT LARGE. Registered Professional Reporters Certified Video Technicians 1188 Fox Forrest Circle · Apopka. Florida 32712 · (407) 884-4662 · FAX (407) 884-4664 Sandra A. Dawkins. President Professional Reporl/ng Since 1977 'I~I 0d!!!!l0- _--n:.=.... . . . 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PRO C E E DIN G S MR. GARGANESE: ON THE SCHRIMSHER AGREEMENT AND TOWN CODE, MR. SCHRIMSHER HAS A FAMILY COMMITMENT. I SPOKE TO HIS ATTORNEY, AND HE'S GOING TO TRY TO MAKE THE COMMISSIONERS' MEETING AFTER HIS FAMILY COMMITMENT. AND HE WOULD RESPECTFULLY REQUEST THAT THAT ITEM BE PUT LAST TO GIVE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR HIM TO MAKE THE MEETING. MAYOR PARTYKA: THAT WILL WORK OUT WELL, BECAUSE WE'LL TAKE A BREAK, GET A CHANCE TO READ THE AGREEMENT, AND THEN WE'LL HANDLE THAT IN THE APPROPRIATE FASHION. SO WE'LL PUT THAT TOWARDS THE BACK. ANYONE ELSE? COMMISSIONER GENNELL. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WELL, I WOULD JUST ENCOURAGE US TO USE THE SAME FORMAT THAT WE DID LAST TIME; SET A TIME LIMIT, DEAL WITH THIS. IF WE CAN'T GET DONE WITH IT, IT GETS PUSHED TO THE END, AND WE TAKE CARE OF CITY BUSINESS AND COME BACK TO IT. MAYOR PARTYKA: WELL, I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE'RE DOING NOW. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: OKAY. MR. MARTINEZ: GET THE ATTORNEY. THE ATTORNEY SEEMS TO BE CONFUSED. WE'LL HANDLE 707 ,.. . . 3 1 AND THE SCHRIMSHER AGREEMENT AT THE SAME TIME. 2 THE MAYOR SAYS THAT HAS BEEN THE PRACTICE AND IT 3 WAS LIKE THE SAME THING. I SAID IT'S NOT 4 NECESSARILY SO. 5 MR. GARGANESE: THAT'S FINE. I'M SORRY. I 6 WAS LOOKING AT THE ADD-ON ITEM REGARDING WAL-MART. 7 MAYOR PARTYKA: THAT'S OVER. 8 MR. GARGANESE: THAT'S OVER. OKAY. 9 MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL RIGHT. THAT'S WHAT WE'VE 10 DONE. IS THAT OKAY? 11 MR. GARGANESE: THAT'S FINE. 12 (WHEREUPON, OTHER AGENDA ITEMS WERE ACCOMPLISHED.) 13 MAYOR PARTYKA: NOW WE'RE BACK TO "A" UNDER 14 REGULAR AGENDA. CITY MANAGER. 15 MR. BLAKE: EXCUSE ME, MAYOR. I'M SORRY. 16 I'VE GOT TO SAY SOMETHING. YOU KNOW, I DON'T 17 KNOW, QUITE FRANKLY -- 18 (WHEREUPON, A BRIEF RECESS WAS TAKEN.) 19 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. GOING TO A. REQUESTS 20 THE COMMISSION APPROVE AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN 21 SCHRIMSHER PROPERTIES AND THE CITY OF WINTER 22 SPRINGS RELATIVE TO ADOPTION OF THE TOWN CENTER 23 CODE. 24 MR. BLAKE: MAYOR, TEN-MINUTE BREAK? 25 MAYOR PARTYKA: TEN-MINUTE BREAK. BACK TO 4 . 1 10:30. 2 MR. MARTINEZ: HOW MUCH TIME WILL WE HAVE 3 DEDICATED TO THIS? 4 MAYOR PARTYKA: THAT'S THE PLAN. WE'LL DO 5 THIS AT 10:30. WHILE YOU'RE BREAKING, DECIDE ON 6 HOW MUCH TIME YOU NEED. 7 (WHEREUPON, A BRIEF RECESS WAS TAKEN.) 8 MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD, SCREAM 9 OR WHATEVER. IF NOT, WE'D LIKE TO BRING THIS 10 MEETING BACK TO ORDER. DO WE HAVE EVERYBODY 11 HERE? ALL RIGHT. COMMISSIONERS, HOW MUCH TIME DO 12 WE WANT TO SPEND ON THIS ISSUE? BECAUSE COME 11 13 O'CLOCK, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE A MOTION TO 14 EXTEND. :. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: LET'S TRY TO GET OUT OF HERE BY 11:00, THEN. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. 11 O'CLOCK; IS THAT RIGHT? MR. MARTINEZ: SHE DOESN'T LIKE IT. MAYOR PARTYKA: WELL, LET'S DO THIS. UNDER REGULAR AGENDA, AGAIN, REQUESTS THE COMMISSION APPROVE AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN SCHRIMSHER PROPERTIES AND THE CITY OF WINTER SPRINGS RELATIVE TO ADOPTION OF THE TOWN CENTER CODE. MR. MARTINEZ: AGAIN? . . . . 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. MR. MCLEMORE, HOW DO YOU WANT TO HANDLE THIS? MR. MCLEMORE: WELL, I WILL START OFF. THE CITY ATTORNEY HAS BEEN IN COMMUNICATION WITH MICKEY RELATIVE TO THE DIRECTIONS THAT YOU HAD GIVEN US LAST MEETING. AND I THINK THE AGREEMENT THAT'S IN FRONT OF YOU IN BODY WAS PREPARED -- WRITTEN BY MR. SCHRIMSHER'S ATTORNEY WITH SOME INPUT TODAY, I THINK, FROM MR. GARGANESE. THE THREE ISSUES THAT I HAVE WITH REGARD TO LANGUAGE I WOULD LIKE TO BRING UP TO YOU. MR. SCHRIMSHER CAN COME FORWARD WITH HIS COUNSEL AND PROVIDE WHATEVER INPUT THEY'D LIKE TO. THE FIRST ONE IS, AS YOU SEE ON THE COVER, THE ISSUE IS WITH WETLAND PARK. IT WAS YOUR SPECIFIC DIRECTION THAT WETLAND PARK NOT EXCEED A DEVIATION OF MORE THAN .4 OR FOUR-TENTHS OF AN ACRE. MR. BLAKE: IT WAS PERCENT, RIGHT? MR. MCLEMORE: YEAH. ALL RIGHT. .4 PERCENT, FOUR-TENTHS OF A PERCENT. MR. BLAKE: IT'S 4 PERCENT. MR. MCLEMORE: OKAY. 4 PERCENT. I BELIEVE THAT THE ACREAGE THAT WAS SUBMITTED IS IN EXCESS OF THAT. AS I RECALL, IT WAS 4.85 PERCENT FROM ,;'. . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 WHAT MICKEY TELLS ME. THAT IS NOT CONSISTENT WITH YOUR PRIOR DIRECTION. IN SECTION 3, YOU WILL SEE THE LANGUAGE IN THE THIRD PARAGRAPH. LANGUAGE I WOULD PREFER TO HAVE THAT MR. MARTINEZ: WHAT PAGE IS THAT? MR. MCLEMORE: THIS IS PAGE 4. MR. MARTINEZ: OKAY. MR. MCLEMORE: I WOULD PREFER TO HAVE THAT LANGUAGE RECRAFTED SO THAT IT DOES NOT PROVIDE AN AUTOMATIC EXCLUSION OF EDGE DRIVE TOTALLY WITHIN THE DISCRETION OF MR. SCHRIMSHER; BUT, IN FACT, THAT LANGUAGE BE CHANGED TO SAY THAT WE WOULD AGREE TO COME UP WITH AN ALTERNATIVE PLAN THAT'S 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 MUTUALLY ACCEPTABLE TO BOTH PARTIES. IF, INDEED, WE CANNOT GET THE STATE -- AND WE'RE ALL ON BOARD ON THIS, ALL ON THE SAME PAGE RELATIVE TO TRYING TO GET THE STATE TO AGREE TO THIS. IF WE'RE UNABLE TO DO THAT, THEN I THINK I WOULD BE MORE COMFORTABLE TO SAY THAT WE WOULD AGREE TO COME BACK WITH AN ALTERNATE PLAN THAT BOTH PARTIES AGREE TO. 18 EDGE DRIVE IS VERY IMPORTANT TO THE SUCCESS OF THE PLAN, AND I THINK THAT THIS NEEDS TO BE A CONCURRENT ACTION ON BOTH PARTIES. I THINK WE . . . 20 21 22 23 24 25 7 1 HAVE ENOUGH SAFEGUARD THERE MAKING IT -- OR 2 REQUIRING IT BE MUTUALLY ACCEPTABLE. 3 THE ONLY OTHER COMMENT I HAVE IS THAT ON PAGE 4 5, AT THE TOP, WHERE IT SAYS "IF SCHRIMSHER ELECTS 5 TO SEEK PUBLIC APPROVAL TO VACATE OR OTHERWISE 6 UTILIZE FOR ANY PURPOSE, II I WOULD PREFER TO SEE 7 THAT BE AMENDED TO ANY LAWFUL PURPOSE UNDER THE 8 TOWN CENTER CODE OR PROVIDED BY (INAUDIBLE) OF THE 9 TOWN CENTER CODE. 10 THOSE ARE MY ONLY THREE COMMENTS. AND AS FAR 11 AS I'M CONCERNED, IF WE CAN AGREE ON THAT, WE'RE 12 DONE. 13 MAYOR PARTYKA: THAT LAST PART, WHERE WAS 14 THAT ON THAT PAPER? 15 MR. MCLEMORE: PAGE 5. 16 MR. MARTINEZ: SECOND LINE FROM THE TOP. 17 MR. MCLEMORE: WHERE IT SAYS, SPECIFY ANY 18 PURPOSE WITHIN THE PROVISIONS OF THE TOWN CENTER 19 CODE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: ANY PURPOSE ALLOWED BY THE TOWN CENTER CODE. MR. MCLEMORE: RIGHT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: AND YOU WOULD AGREE TO THAT FOR YOUR REVISION ON THE PAGE RIGHT PRIOR TO THAT, I'M ASSUMING. BECAUSE IF YOU MAY ELECT TO VACATE . . . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8 1 THAT PORTION OF THE TRAIL JUST EAST OF MAGNOLIA PARK AND, FOR ANY PURPOSE, WE DIDN'T, YOU WOULD BE, FOR ANY PURPOSE, ALLOWED BY THE TOWN CENTER 2 3 4 CODE? 5 MR. MCLEMORE: RIGHT. SURE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: YES. I THINK ~E ALL MEANT 6 7 THAT. 8 9 MR. MCLEMORE: AND I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THE MUTUALLY ACCEPTABLE LANGUAGE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT THAT. MR. GARGANESE: THAT'S IT. MR. MCLEMORE: THAT'S REALLY IT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: SOUNDS LIKE RON'S GOT TWO 10 11 12 13 14 ISSUES, REALLY, BECAUSE THAT THIRD ONE IS SORT OF A NON-ISSUE. MR. MCLEOD: SO WE'RE DOWN TO TWO NOW. 15 16 17 MR. BLAKE: AT THE MOMENT. 18 MR. GRINDSTAFF: DOWN TO TWO. WE'VE GOT SOME CLEANUP SUGGESTIONS AND WE WOULD AGREE THAT THE THREE THAT HE IDENTIFIED THERE NEED TO BE TALKED ABOUT. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. HOW DO YOU WANT TO APPROACH THIS? MR. MARTINEZ: MR. MAYOR, CAN I SUGGEST FOR THE PURPOSES OF ,EXPEDIENCY TO -- SINCE WE DRAFTED . . . 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THIS AGREEMENT TO ALLOW MR. SCHRIMSHER AND HIS ATTORNEY TO BRING TO US THEIR OBJECTIONS TO THIS AGREEMENT, AND MAYBE WE CAN EXPEDITE THINGS BY HEARING FROM THEM FIRST AND DEALING WITH THE ISSUES AS THEY COME UP. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I THINK THAT'S A GOOD IDEA. I THINK WE'RE DOWN TO SOME VERY NARROW THINGS. MAYBE AFTER HEARING WHAT RON SAID, IF YOU CAN HEAR WHAT WE HAVE TO SAY -- WE HAVE A VERY SHORT LIST OF THINGS -- AND THEN WE CAN AGREE -- WE CAN AT LEAST FIGURE OUT HOW TO PROCEED FROM THERE. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. MR. MCLEOD: AGREE WAS FINE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: BUT AS YOU SAID, IF YOU ALL AGREE, WE'LL BE OUT OF HERE QUICKLY. FIRST OF ALL, JUST SOME CLEANUP ISSUES. AND RON AND ANTHONY, YOU-ALL CHIME IN, PLEASE. A COUPLE CLEANUP ISSUES. REFERENCES MADE IN A COUPLE PLACES TO -- IF YOU'LL FLIP TO PAGE 3, PARAGRAPH J, WE TALKED ABOUT THE SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY. AND WE DELETED THAT LAST SENTENCE THAT REFERENCES THAT PORTION OF THE SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY THAT IS NOT INCLUDED IN THE TOWN CENTER. THE REASON WE DELETED THAT SENTENCE WAS THAT AT THE LAST MEETING OR SO, WE CORRECTED THE ". . . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 1 BOUNDARY TO NOT INCLUDE THAT PORTION OF THE 2 PROPERTY THAT'S NOT INCLUDED. 3 WELL, THERE ARE A COUPLE OF OTHER REFERENCES 4 IN THIS AGREEMENT TO SCHEDULE B-2, WHICH WE DIDN'T 5 CATCH IN THIS DRAFT, AND THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN 6 REMOVED. FOR EXAMPLE, ON PAGE 16, ~F YOU'LL TURN 7 WITH ME TO ARTICLE 30 8 MR. MCLEOD: I'M SORRY. WHAT PAGE WAS THAT? 9 MR. GRINDSTAFF: PAGE 16, ARTICLE 30. 10 EVERYBODY THERE? RIGHT AFTER THE DEFINITION OF 11 SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY WE HAVE AN EXHIBIT B-2, PAREN, 12 THE PROPERTY OWNED BY SCHRIMSHER THAT IS NOT 13 I INCLUDED IN THE TOWN CENTER DISTRICT. THAT CLAUSEI SHOULD HAVE BEEN DELETED BECAUSE WE NO LONGER MAKE 14 15 REFERENCE TO B-2. 16 MR. MARTINEZ: SO THIS IS RELATED TO IIJ." 17 MR. GRINDSTAFF: YES, SIR. IT'S RELATED TO 18 THE DELETION OF THE LAST SENTENCE OF "J." DO YOU AGREE, ANTHONY? MR. GARGANESE: YES. MR. GRINDSTAFF: ALL RIGHT. ON THE SAME LINE -- I MEAN, ON THE SAME MATTER, IF YOU WILL FLIP OVER TO PAGE 22, WHICH IS THE LIST OF EXHIBITS; 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. DOWN WHERE IT SAYS SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY, THAT DEFINITION 2-H IS -- OR ~. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 11 2-1 IS ACTUALLY SCHRIMSHER ENTITY, NOT THE SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY. AND DEFINITION 2-J IS THE SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY, NOT THE SCHRIMSHER EXCLUDED PROPERTY. EVERYBODY FOLLOW THAT? MAYOR PARTYKA: SO THE SCHRIMSHER ENTITY FOR 2-1, AND THEN JUST PURE SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY FOR 2-J. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT'S CORRECT. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: DELETE THE WORD "EXCLUDED." MR. GRINDSTAFF: DELETE THE WORD "EXCLUDED" IN 2-J AND DELETE THE WORD "PROPERTY" IN 2-1. MR. MARTINEZ: CAN WE GET A RESPONSE FROM MR. GARGANESE ON THAT? MR. GARGANESE: THAT'S FINE. MR. MARTINEZ: OKAY. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT TAKES CARE OF THAT CLEANUP ITEM. AND ARTICLE 44 ON PAGE 19 WHERE IT SAYS "LAND USE PERCENTAGES, II I THINK THREE WORDS WERE LEFT OFF AT THE END OF THAT SENTENCE. "CITY AGREES THE SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY WILL BE ENTITLED TO THE SAME MINIMUM MIX OF LAND USE PERCENTAGES AS SET FORTH IN THE CITY'S . . . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 1 COMPREHENSIVE PLAN." I THINK WHAT THAT MEANT WAS 2 THE CITY'S COMPREHENSIVE PLAN FOR TOWN CENTER. 3 MR. MARTINEZ: THAT'S RIGHT. 4 MR. GRINDSTAFF: YEAH. NO ARGUMENT. BUT 5 OTHERWISE, IT'S AN INCOMPLETE SENTENCE. 6 MR. MARTINEZ: YEAH. VERY GOOp. YOU'RE 7 DOING YOUR HOMEWORK. 8 MR. GRINDSTAFF: DOING MY HOMEWORK. DOWN THE 9 STRETCH, COMMISSIONER. 10 THE NEXT ITEM I THINK IS HELPFUL FOR ALL OF 11 US. ON ST. JOHN'S LANDING ON PAGE 12 OF 23, AT 12 THE TOP OF THE PAGE THERE ARE THREE CONDITIONS FOR 13 WHICH ST. JOHN'S LANDING LOT OWNERS CAN CUT A HOLE 14 IN THE WALL TO ACCESS THE GATE -- I'M SORRY -- TO 15 PUT IN A GATE AND ACCESS THE TRAIL. OF THE THREE 16 THINGS, THEY HAVE TO INSTALL THE GATE THEMSELVES, 17 IT HAS TO OPEN INWARD, AND THE GATE SHALL BE 18 SUBJECT TO THE REASONABLE APPROVAL OF BOTH THE CITY AND SCHRIMSHER. NOW, IT WAS SUGGESTED, AND I AGREE, THAT IT'S A GOOD IDEA. I THINK THAT THAT LOT OWNER SHOULD HOLD HARMLESS BOTH THE CITY AND SCHRIMSHER FROM ANY DAMAGES RESULTING FROM A TRESPASSER. IF ONE OF THESE TRAIL USERS GOES THROUGH THE GATE THAT THEY ASK FOR, THEY DON'T NEED TO BE SUING THE CITY . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 44 25 . . 13 . OR US BECAUSE OF SOME SORT OF TRESPASSING. YES, SIR. MR. BLAKE: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN -- MAYOR PARTYKA: HOLD IT. HOLD IT. COMMISSIONER GENNELL. MR. GRINDSTAFF: IT JUST SEEMS ,TO ME THAT'S A GOOD IDEA FOR EVERYONE. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YES. I WOULD SUGGEST THAT YOU INCLUDE THE COUNTY IN THERE, BECAUSE THE COUNTY IS THE MANAGER OF THE TRAIL. AND THEY'RE DEVELOPING ENCROACHMENT POLICIES RIGHT NOW TO HANDLE THOSE KIND OF ISSUES. MR. GRINDSTAFF: RIGHT. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. COMMISSIONER BLAKE. MR. BLAKE: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE PROPERTY CONVEYS; CHANGES HANDS? MR. GRINDSTAFF: WELL, THAT WOULD BE MR. BLAKE: DOES THE RELEASE GO WITH THE LAND? MR. GARGANESE: YOU COULD RECORD THAT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: YEAH. WE COULD RECORD THAT. I THINK THAT'S AN EXCELLENT IDEA. I MEAN, THAT LOT OWNER WHO HAS THEN ACCESS TO THE TRAIL I MEAN, HE SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO SELL HIS LOT TO SOMEONE WHO CAN THEN COME SUE THE CITY AND US . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . 14 BECAUSE SOMEONE HAD ACCESS TO HIS BACKYARD AND STOLE HIS TELEVISION. I THINK WE CAN BUILD THAT IN. HOLD HARMLESS BY RECORDED INSTRUMENT OR SOMETHING. WE CAN BUILD THAT IN. ALL RIGHT. WE'RE ON A ROLL HERE NOW. THE REFERENCE IS MADE -- WE'RE GETTING A LITTLE MORE JUICY NOW BUT REFERENCE IS MADE -- ON PAGE 2 AND THROUGHOUT THIS DOCUMENT, REFERENCE IS MADE TO CROSS SEMINOLE TRAIL STREET. CROSS SEMINOLE TRAIL STREET IS A STREET THAT USED TO BE IN THE TOWN CENTER DESIGN CODE AND IS NO LONGER THERE. TOWN CENTER -- I MEAN, THERE IS A STREET THERE AND IT'S WHAT WE ALL CALL THAT EAST/WEST STREET THAT CAN MOVE UP AND DOWN. AND PARTS 4 AND 5 ARE ON THAT STREET, BUT IT'S NO LONGER CALLED CROSS SEMINOLE TRAIL STREET BECAUSE THE TRAIL'S NOT THERE. AND OUR SUGGESTION WOULD BE THAT IN CLEANING THIS THING UP, LET'S CALL THAT STREET SOMETHING OTHER THAN CROSS SEMINOLE TRAIL STREET, WHICH IS VERY CONFUSING. WE TWEAKED THE DEFINITION TO SAY THAT CROSS SEMINOLE TRAIL STREET SHALL MEAN THAT SEGMENT OF ROADWAY THAT USED TO BE CALLED CROSS SEMINOLE TRAIL STREET. MR. MARTINEZ: HOW ABOUT SCHRIMSHER LANE? MR. GRINDSTAFF: WELL, ANYTHING. ANYTHING . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 15 OTHER THAN CROSS SEMINOLE TRAIL STREET. BECAUSE, ALSO, THE CODE THAT WAS REVISED BY VICTOR DOVER NOW REFERENCES SOMETHING CALLED TRAIL STREET, WHICH DOESN'T EVEN EXIST. IT'S ON PAGE 11 AS A MAP. IT'S DARK GREEN AND IT DOESN'T EXIST ANYWHERE. MR. GARGANESE: WELL, IT EXISTS IN THE LEGEND BUT DOES NOT EXIST IN THE DEPICTION OF THE TOWN CENTER. MR. GRINDSTAFF: AND THEN YOU GO TO PAGE 24 OF THE CODE, AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING. MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL RIGHT. COMMISSIONER GENNELL. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WOULD IT BE HELPFUL TO GIVE IT A NAME? MR. GRINDSTAFF: WELL, WHAT I SAID THERE WAS TWO DIFFERENT ISSUES; ONE WAS CROSS SEMINOLE TRAIL STREET PROBABLY NEEDS A NAME OTHER THAN CROSS SEMINOLE TRAIL STREET. AND THEN DEPENDING UPON ITS NAME, UNLESS IT STARTS WITH A C-R, IT'S GOING TO CHANGE THE LOCATION IN THE DEFINED TERMS. THAT'S ONE THING. THE OTHER ONE IS WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THIS THING CALLED TRAIL STREET, WHICH REALLY DOESN'T ~. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 16 HAVE A PLACE IN THE CODE AT THIS POINT? MR. MCLEMORE: WELL, THE INTENT, AGAIN, WAS JUST TO GIVE THEM GENERIC NAMES. IT'S NOT TO START GIVING THEM SPECIFIC NAMES. MR. GRINDSTAFF: IT'S JUST THAT IT GETS CONFUSING. THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING, RON. MR. MCLEMORE: UNLESS YOU WANT IT GRINDSTAFF LANE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: NO. I LIKE THE EAST/WEST LANE OR MCLEMORE. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I WOULD SUGGEST TO YOU SINCE THIS IS -- WHEN WE'RE GOING THROUGH THIS EXERCISE RIGHT NOW, WE CALL IT CENTENNIAL STREET OR CENTENNIAL BOULEVARD OR SOMETHING. IT'S PRETTY GENERIC. MR. MARTINEZ: HOW ABOUT MILLENNIUM? MR. MCLEMORE: WE TRIED TO USE NAMES THAT KIND OF DESCRIBED -- MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL RIGHT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: AT ONE POINT WE TALKED ABOUT CALLING IT THE EAST/WEST CONNECTOR. MAYOR PARTYKA: LOOK, ALL THIS IS -- JUST PICK SOMETHING THAT'S EASY. I DON'T CARE IF IT'S MR. GRINDSTAFF: HOW ABOUT PARK AVENUE? ~. 1 2 3 4 5 6 ,7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 17 MR. MCLEOD: COMMISSIONERS 2000. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THAT'S GOOD. MAYOR PARTYKA: JUST GIVE IT A NAME SO YOU'RE CLEAR. MR. BLAKE: STREET A, STREET B, STREET C. HAVE A LIST, A MAP THAT SHOWS -- MR. GRINDSTAFF: IF YOU'D ALLOW US -- I MEAN, EAST/WEST CONNECTOR, WHICH IS WHAT IT IS. IT CONNECTS THAT PARK TO THE WETLAND PARK. MR. MCLEMORE: WE'LL NAME THEM LATER. MR. GRINDSTAFF: AS LONG AS YOU ALL AGREE THAT THAT'S A CLEANUP THING THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE. ALL RIGHT. NOW WE'RE REALLY ON A ROLL. NOW WE'RE DOWN TO -- MR. BLAKE: ACRES. MR. GRINDSTAFF: NOW WE'RE DOWN TO THE ISSUES ON ACREAGE OF WETLAND PARK, MAGNOLIA PARK, AND THEN THIS EDGE DRIVE, WHAT TO DO ON THIS -- IF THE STATE DOESN'T LET US USE THAT LANE FOR EDGE DRIVE. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE EASY ONE FIRST, WETLAND PARK. WHEN WE WERE LAST TOGETHER WE TALKED ABOUT HAVING AN ADJUSTMENT, MORE OR LESS, WHICH AFTER CONSIDERABLE DISCUSSION, SOMEONE PROPOSED .04 PERCENT. ,. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 18 MR. BLAKE: 4 PERCENT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: .04 PERCENT. MR. BLAKE: JUST 4 PERCENT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: ALL RIGHT. 4 PERCENT, WHICH IS. 04 . MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. THAT'S CORRECT. MR. BLAKE: IF YOU WANT TO GO ON .04 PERCENT, WE'RE OKAY WITH THAT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: AND MICHAEL SUGGESTED -- WHAT HE HAD SEEN WAS BASED ON HIS SURVEYOR'S DISCUSSION AND DISCUSSION WITH YOU-ALL'S SURVEYOR, THAT IT WOULD BE MORE LIKE 5 PERCENT. SINCE THEN, WE HAVE HAD A DRAWING PRODUCED BY OUR SURVEYOR WITH INFORMATION -- I BELIEVE YOUR SURVEYOR PARTICIPATED IN -- WHICH WE CAN PUT ON THE OVERHEAD IF YOU WANT TO OR PASS IT AROUND. MR. MCLEOD: PUT IT ON THE OVERHEAD. MR. GRINDSTAFF: IT PROVIDES FOR THE ROUND CURVE OF EDGE DRIVE AND ALL THE THINGS WE TALKED ABOUT. BUT WHAT IT BOILS DOWN TO IS 4.85 PERCENT AS OPPOSED TO 4 PERCENT. MR. BLAKE: ACTUALLY, 4.84. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WAS IT 4.84? MR. BLAKE: YES. MR. GRINDSTAFF: OKAY. WELL THEN, 4.84 IT ~. . . 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 1 IS. 2 MR. BLAKE: 4.837. 3 MR. GRINDSTAFF: UNLIKE THE 1.2 YOU'RE 4 WILLING TO GO, WE'RE JUST TALKING ABOUT .84. 5 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. 6 MR. MARTINEZ: THAT'S ALMOST 1.PERCENT. 7 MR. MCLEMORE: I'M CURIOUS. WHEN THE 8 COMMISSION -- AND WE TALKED ABOUT THIS ONE ITEM 9 PROBABLY FOR 30 MINUTES. AND WHEN WE CAME IN AND 10 AGREED ON A NUMBER OF THINGS, WHY DID YOU BRING 11 BACK SOMETHING THAT WAS DIFFERENT? 12 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I DON'T THINK WE AGREED ON 13 .04. YOU TOLD US THAT'S WHAT YOU-ALL WERE GOING 14 TO SAY, .04, AN ADJUSTMENT. MICHAEL SAT HERE AND 15 WAS TALKING ABOUT .05. 16 MR. MCLEMORE: THAT'S WHAT THE COMMISSION 17 SAID, WAS 4. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WELL, WHAT THEY SAID IS NOT IN AGREEMENT. SO JUST SO THAT WE'RE CLEAR, DON'T SIT HERE AND SAY WE AGREED AND CAME BACK. YOU-ALL TOLD US .04, AND WE'RE COMING BACK WITH .0484. I UNDERSTAND. AND JUST TO BE CLEAR, I DIDN'T WANT TO SUGGEST THAT HE AGREED TO .04. THAT'S AN ISSUE. MR. MCLEMORE: THEN THERE WERE DISCUSSIONS ,. . . 21 22 23 24 25 20 1 ABOUT CHANGES AND WHAT DO WE TAKE OUT ON OUR SIDE. 2 MR; GRINDSTAFF: DO WHAT? I'M SORRY. 3 MR. MCLEMORE: THEN THE COMMISSION NEEDS TO 4 CONSIDER WHAT, NECESSARILY, THEY WANT TO TAKE OUT 5 OF THEIR OFFERING AS A RESULT OF THAT, OR JUST 6 ACCEPT IT. 7 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE WOULD PROPOSE THAT THEY 8 JUST ACCEPT IT BECAUSE OF WHERE WE ARE. I MEAN, 9 LET'S FINISH TALKING ABOUT WHERE WE ARE, SO YOU 10 KNOW WHERE WE ARE. 11 THE NEXT ITEM, MAGNOLIA PARK. MAGNOLIA PARK, 12 IF YOU ALL WILL REMEMBER HOW WE STARTED WITH THIS 13 CONCEPT OF .79 ACRES. AND WHEN WE ALL LEARNED 14 THAT WE COULDN'T USE THAT EASTERN 50 FEET -- WELL, 15 WE COULDN'T CONVEY TO YOU THE EASTERN 50 FEET OF 16 WHAT VICTOR HAD ON HIS DRAWINGS FOR THREE OR FOUR 17 YEARS, WE REALIZED THAT WAS .59, NOT .79. 18 WELL, SINCE THEN AND THERE WAS SOME 19 DISCUSSIONS ABOUT HOW DO YOU COME UP WITH THE 20 .20? WHAT DO YOU DO? WOULD YOU DO THE .20 HERE? WOULD YOU DO THE .10? I I WELL, IN THE MEANTIME, YOUR STAFF HAS WORKED I WITH VICTOR AND THEY HAVE REDRAWN MAGNOLIA PARK TOj WHERE IT IS, I THINK, .64 ACRES, RON? AND WHAT THEY DID IS THEY FATTENED IT UP. THEY FATTENED UP ,. . . 21 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 FEET ON THE NORTH SIDE, 10 FEET ON THE SOUTH SIDE MR. MCLEMORE: .64. LET ME GET MY MAP HERE. MR. .GRINDSTAFF: -- WHICH TOOK MORE OF THE SCHRIMSHER DEVELOPABLE PROPERTY DOWN TO TOOK 10 MORE FEET GOING SOUTH AND 10 MORE FEET GOING NORTH. BUT BECAUSE OF THE ACREAGE INVOLVED IN THAT, IT ONLY TOOK IT TO .64 ACRES FROM .59 ACRES. MR. MCLEMORE: THAT'S CORRECT. IT TOOK IT TO .64. AND MY PROPOSAL TO YOU WAS THAT THE ADDITIONAL .15 WOULD BE ADDED TO ONE OF THE OTHER CITY PARKS. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT WAS YOUR PROPOSAL TO MIKE. MR. MCLEMORE: RIGHT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT'S WHERE WE ARE. THAT'S THE ISSUE THERE ON THAT. MIKE HAD NOT EVEN -- HE HAD TALKED TO RON, AND RON HAD TOLD HIM THAT THEY HAD REVISED THE PARK. WE DIDN'T KNOW THE ACREAGE CALCULATION UNTIL EARLIER TODAY. MR. SCHRIMSHER: NO. NO. I GOT IT ON FRIDAY. MR. GRINDSTAFF: FRIDAY. OKAY. MR. MARTINEZ: WE'RE TALKING ABOUT .15 HERE AND .85 ON THE WETLANDS PARK? ". 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 22 MR. GRINDSTAFF: YES. MR. MARTINEZ: OKAY. MR. GRINDSTAFF: AND THEN THE -- MR. SCHRIMSHER: WAIT. THE .0085 OR .85 PERCENT ADDS UP TO .19 SOMETHING OF AN ACRE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: YOU'RE RIGHT. HE'S RIGHT. IT'S NOT .85 AND .15. MR. MARTINEZ: IT'S MORE CLOSE TO THIS .15. MR. GRINDSTAFF: IT WOULD BE, LIKE, .1585. MR. MARTINEZ: OKAY. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. GO AHEAD. MR. GRINDSTAFF: GOOD POINT. EXCELLENT POINT. MR. MARTINEZ: THAT'S WHAT YOU GOT HIM THERE FOR. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT'S RIGHT. MR. MCLEOD: IT'S OBVIOUS WHO DOES THE MATH AND WHO DOES THE ATTORNEY SIDE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: OKAY. AND THEN THE EDGE DRIVE ISSUE. THE EDGE DRIVE ISSUE IS THIS LITTLE GIZMO RIGHT HERE. AND AS RON WAS SAYING, WE'RE ALL ON BOARD HERE ABOUT TRYING TO GET TO THE CITY -- OR TO THE STATE AND HAVE THE STATE ALLOW THE UTILIZATION OF THIS AREA THAT'S WITHIN THE CURRENT TRAIL ALIGNMENT. I THINK WE'RE ALL ON ~. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 1,8 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 23 BOARD AS TO THAT COLLECTIVE EFFORT, THAT THE ISSUE IS IF WE FAIL IN OUR COLLECTIVE EFFORTS, THAT YOU-ALL WOULD TAKE CHARGE, TAKE THE LEAD ON THAT. IF YOU FAIL IN YOUR EFFORT TO GET TO USE THAT AS EDGE DRIVE OR TRAIL ACCESS LANE, WHATEVER YOU CALL THAT THING, WHAT HAPPENS? DO YOU THEN -- I MEAN, THAT LANE OR THAT ROADWAY HAS ALWAYS BEEN DEPICTED WITHIN THE TRAIL AREA, NOT ON THE SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY. IT WASN'T UNTIL WE ALL LEARNED THAT THIS WAS A POTENTIAL PROBLEM THAT THE FOCUS BEGAN TO SAY, OKAY, IF WE CAN'T DO THIS, THEN WE NEED TO FLOP IT OVER THERE AND PUT IT OVER ON THE SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY. MR. MCLEMORE: I NEED TO OBJECT TO THAT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: OKAY. MR. MCLEMORE: IT WAS OUR UNDERSTANDING ALWAYS, FROM THE BEGINNING, THAT THAT ROAD WAS ON SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY AND NOT ON THE TRAIL PROPERTY. THAT MAY HAVE BEEN AN ERROR, BUT THAT'S WHAT OUR ASSUMPTION ALWAYS WAS UNTIL THE SURVEYING ACTUALLY SHOWED THAT THE RIGHT-OF-WAY WAS -- MR. GRINDSTAFF: THE ISSUE THERE IS NONE OF VICTOR'S DRAWINGS OF THE TOWN CENTER EVER SHOWED THAT. THEY ALL SHOWED IT GOING RIGHT UP THROUGH THERE AND THEN THE TRAIL BEING VACATED NORTH OF . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 24 MAGNOLIA PARK. MR. MCLEMORE: I BEG TO DIFFER WITH YOU, MICKEY, IN TERMS OF WHAT THE INTENT WAS. NOW, WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED, THAT'S ONE THING. BUT THE INTENT WAS ALWAYS ALONG THAT IT WAS ON SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY, NOT ON THE TRAIL. BECAUSE WE WOULD NEVER ATTEMPT TO PUT IT ON THE TRAIL. WE DIDN'T THINK THE STATE WOULD EVEN CONSIDER IT. AND WE'RE ALL WILLING TO GIVE IN AND TRY TO MAKE IT HAPPEN BECAUSE OF WHAT'S HAPPENED HERE WHEN WE HAPPENED TO LEARN THE SURVEY DATA. BUT, NO, WE NEVER INTENDED TO PUT THAT ON STATE PROPERTY. THAT ROAD WAS ALWAYS INTENDED TO BE ON SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WELL, THEN, PERHAPS VICTOR WAS JUST FLAT WRONG ON ALL THE DRAWINGS, AND THAT COULD BE. MR. MCLEMORE: I THINK HE WAS. LET ME ASK CHARLES, IF HE WOULD, TO COMMENT ON THAT. MR. CARRINGTON: THANKS. REMEMBER MR. MCLEMORE: YOU WERE HAVING TOO MUCH FUN SITTING THERE LAUGHING AT US. MR. CARRINGTON: REMEMBER THE CHARRETTE THAT WAS INITIATED IN NOVEMBER BY THE SCHRIMSHER GROUP IN REALIZING AND PROVIDING INFORMATION THAT THE ~. . . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 25 1 DELINEATION OF THE WETLANDS WAS INCORRECT? AND 2 THIS BOARD AUTHORIZED I THINK IT WAS $35,000 3 FOR ANOTHER CHARRETTE IN NOVEMBER. VICTOR BROUGHT 4 HIS STAFF HERE AND SPENT THE WEEK. 5 NOW, I WAS NOT HERE AND WAS NOT A 6 PARTICIPANT, BECAUSE I WAS UP TRYING TO GET THE 7 TRAIL RELOCATED WITH THE LAND ACQUISITION WITH 8 WHATEVER THAT BOARD WAS UP THERE, WHICH WAS 9 SUCCESSFUL. 10 BUT UP UNTIL THAT TIME, YOU WILL REMEMBER 11 THAT THE TRAIL ACTUALLY CAME ALONG HERE IN THE 12 WETLANDS AND IT WAS BEING VACATED ALL THE WAY FROM 13 UP THERE AT TUSCAWILLA, ALL THE WAY DOWN. 14 WHEN THIS CHARRETTE TOOK PLACE, THE ACTUAL 15 WETLAND BOUNDARY MOVED OVER AND WAS CORRECTED. 16 AND THE VACATION -- OR THE EXCHANGE PORTION OF THE TRAIL, INSTEAD OF STARTING WAY UP THERE AT , , 17 18 TUSCAWILLA, STARTED DOWN HERE. AND SO THE AMOUNT OF VACATION OR THE AMOUNT OF EXCHANGE PROPERTY FROM THE STATE WAS ALMOST CUT IN HALF IN THAT EFFORT IN NOVEMBER. SO THAT'S WHEN THINGS CHANGED. VICTOR DIDN'T MAKE A MISTAKE. THE BALL GAME CHANGED A LITTLE BIT, BECAUSE THE WETLAND AREA DELINEATION WAS CHANGED IN NOVEMBER TO REFLECT A MORE REALISTIC . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 26 BOUNDARY THAT THE SCHRIMSHER PEOPLE -- THAT THE SCHRIMSHER PROPERTIES PROVIDED TO VICTOR AT THAT TIME. MR. MCLEMORE: THAT'S CONSISTENT WITH MY DISCUSSION WITH HIM LAST WEEK. BUT IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE. THE POINT IS THIS IS WHERE WE ARE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I AGREE. I AGREE. AND I THINK WE ALL AGREE THERE'S CONFUSION AGAIN HERE. THE REAL QUESTION IS: IF WE CAN'T PUT A ROAD THERE WITH THE BLESSING OF WHOEVER WE'VE GOT TO TALK TO AT THE STATE, WHAT HAPPENS? AND RON'S SUGGESTION IS THAT WE REVISIT IT AT THAT TIME AND TRY TO WORK SOMETHING OUT. AND OUR POSITION IS THAT WE WOULD HAVE THE -- WELL, OUR SUGGESTION IS THAT WE WOULD HAVE THE OPTION OF PUTTING THE ROAD THERE, BUT NOT BE OBLIGATED TO DO SO. I MEAN, THE FACT IS THAT IT MAY BE THAT A ROAD COMES IN -- I DON'T WANT TO WRITE ON IT BUT IT COMES IN HERE AND GOES UP AND AROUND. MAYBE THERE'S A CUL-DE-SAC IN THERE. WHO KNOWS? I MEAN, WE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THE OPTION NOT BE MANDATED. MR. MCLEMORE: MICKEY, IF I COULD, THIS IS '. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 27 THE ISSUE THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO BOTH OF US, BOTH THE CITY AND YOU. AND IN MY DISCUSSIONS WITH VICTOR LAST WEEK, HE WAS MORE CRITICAL, IN HIS MIND, THAT IF WE CAN'T PULL THIS OFF WITH THE STATE, THEN IN ORDER TO PROTECT THE INTEGRITY OF THE DESIGN AT THIS POINT IN TIME, CIRCULATION STILL REMAINS A CRITICAL ISSUE, YOU KNOW, TO THAT PARK. AND WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO SIT DOWN WITH EACH OTHER AND JUST AGREE ON WHATEVER WE'RE GOING TO DO, WITH BOTH PARTIES IN MIND AND ASSUMING AND ACKNOWLEDGING THAT THOSE ARE VERY INTENSE ON THIS ISSUE. WE'D JUST WORK SOMETHING OUT THAT'S MUTUALLY AGREEABLE TO BOTH OF US WITH OUR DESIGNER INVOLVED AND YOU INVOLVED. WE'VE GOT TO PROTECT EACH OTHER'S INTEREST OR WE'D NEVER GET TO A MUTUALLY ACCEPTABLE AGREEMENT. I LIKE THE COMFORT OF KNOWING THAT WE COULD DO THAT IN THE FUTURE AND NOT JUST SAY IT'S IN YOUR HANDS TO DO IT WHETHER YOU WANT TO OR NOT, WHETHER THE CITY HAS ANY STRONG FEELINGS ABOUT IT OR NOT. I THINK YOU'RE ADEQUATELY PROTECTED. I WOULD FEEL ADEQUATELY PROTECTED WITH THAT LANGUAGE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WELL, I'D LIKE TO TALK TO MR. SCHRIMSHER ON THIS. . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 28 MR. MCLEMORE: WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE MR. SCHRIMSHER REDESIGN IF THIS DOESN'T WORK OUT. WHAT VICTOR SAID TO ME, IF THIS DOESN'T WORK, WE'VE GOT BIG CHANGES. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I WOULD AGREE. BECAUSE IF THAT DOESN'T WORK, CHANCES ARE THIS ,IS NOT WORKING AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO TALK ABOUT THAT WITH THEM AND MAYBE TAKE ANOTHER LOOK AT A LOT OF STUFF. MR. MCLEMORE: I THINK, AT THAT POINT IN TIME, THERE'S GOING TO BE AN INTENSE INTEREST ON BOTH OUR PARTS TO COME UP WITH A SOLUTION. MR. GRINDSTAFF: AND FOLKS, THAT'S -- THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT'S WHAT WE THINK IS ALL THE ISSUES. I THINK THAT'S GOOD NEWS. MAYOR PARTYKA: IT'S ALL GOOD NEWS. ALL RIGHT. HOW DO WE WANT TO HANDLE THIS, COMMISSIONERS? MR. MARTINEZ: SO IN OTHER WORDS MAYOR PARTYKA: ONE AT A TIME. MR. MARTINEZ: -- YOU'RE SAYING THAT YOU WILL GIVE US .79 -- I'M SORRY. MAYOR PARTYKA: WE HAVE TO EXTEND. IT'S 11 O'CLOCK. WE HAVE TO MAKE A MOTION TO EXTEND HOWEVER ONE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE OF THE PERSON THAT ~. . . 29 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MAKES THE MOTION. MR. BLAKE: MOTION TO EXTEND FOR ONE HOUR. MR. MCLEOD: SECOND. MAYOR PARTYKA: CALL THE VOTE, PLEASE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. MR. MARTINEZ: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER BLAKE. MR. BLAKE: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MILLER. MR. MILLER: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. MR. MCLEOD: AYE. THE CLERK: DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: AYE. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. MR. MARTINEZ: MR. GRINDSTAFF, WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THAT IF WE GIVE YOU 4.85 IN THE WETLANDS PARK, YOU WILL GIVE US .79 IN MAGNOLIA PARK. MR. GRINDSTAFF: IN MAGNOLIA PARK. MR. MCLEMORE: ALL HE'S ASKING FOR IS .64 NO. .79. MR. MARTINEZ: IT WILL BE 4.85 IF YOU GIVE US .79 . MR. MCLEMORE: RIGHT. WE PUT THE LANGUAGE IN THERE, IF YOU GO BACK TO THAT SECTION, THAT SAYS . . . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 30 1 THAT IF WE -- OR SOME OTHER MUTUALLY ACCEPTED 2 AGREEMENT, WHICH I THINK YOU DON'T HAVE TO 3 ANSWER THAT RIGHT NOW IF YOU DON'T WANT TO. WE 4 CAN WORK ON THAT AT A FUTURE DATE. 5 BUT MY SUGGESTION WAS THAT WE WOULD JUST PUT 6 THAT SMALL PIECE IN THE PARK SOMEWHERE. BUT THE 7 .79 WAS A LOCK. 8 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WHICH IS WHAT WE -- WHAT WE 9 SUBMITTED IT, A LOCK-IN AT .79. DID YOU SEE 10 THAT? 11 MR. MCLEMORE: RIGHT. 12 MR. GRINDSTAFF: BUT WHAT WE WANT TO DO IS 13 LOOK AT THE CONFIGURATION IN ORDER TO GET THE .79. 14 MR. MCLEMORE: RIGHT. WHAT VICTOR WAS GOING 15 TO DO WHEN HE LOOKED AT IT, HE SAID, I DON'T WANT 16 TO MAKE IT ANY WIDER. BECAUSE IF I MAKE IT ANY 17 WIDER, IT'S GOING TO MAKE PUTTING A BUILDING ON 18 THE TOP VERY DIFFICULT, ON THE SMALL PART OF THE TOP. SO HE SAID, LET'S JUST TAKE THAT SMALL AMOUNT OF ACREAGE AND PUT IT SOMEWHERE ELSE. BECAUSE HE CONTINUES TO FEEL VERY STRONGLY THAT WE1 NEED !HAT BUILDING ON THE NORTH PART THERE. AND I IF WE GO ANY FURTHER MR. GRINDSTAFF: YOU MEAN ON THE PRIVATE PROPERTY? . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 31 MR. MCLEMORE: YES. THAT CAME -- BECAUSE IF YOU GO -- I THINK HE SAID THAT COULD BE 18 TO 20 FEET TO GO TO THE MR. GRINDSTAFF: NO. NO. I AGREE. AND THAT'S WHAT WE -- YOU KNOW, WE WERE ABOUT TO MAKE THAT SLIVER UNUSABLE, WHICH IS A PROBLEM. MR. MCLEMORE: RIGHT. WHICH HE DIDN'T WANT TO DO. AND THAT'S THE REASON HE SAID, I DON'T WANT TO MAKE IT ANY WIDER JUST TO GET THE .79. LET'S JUST TAKE WHAT'S LEFT OVER AND PUT IT IN ONE OF THOSE LITTLE PARKS SOMEWHERE, AND I AGREE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: LET ME ASK YOU THIS: THE .79 WAS A NUMBER THAT WE PULLED OUT OF THE AIR A LONG TIME AGO WHEN WE THOUGHT MAGNOLIA PARK WAS .79 ACRES. THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED. I MEAN, THAT'S THE REALITY OF WHERE IT CAME FROM. THEN IT WORKED ITS WAY IN HERE AND IT TURNED OUT THAT THE .79 WAS WRONG. WHAT'S WRONG WITH .64? MR. MARTINEZ: IT'S SHORT 15. MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. MR. MCLEOD: BECAUSE IT STILL BOILS BACK TO THE SAME CONCEPT THAT WE'VE ARGUED THIS BEFORE, THAT IN GIVEN TO THE CITY BRINGING SEWER AND WATER AND AMENITIES, IT HAD A DOLLAR VALUE. AND THAT ,. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 32 .79 HAD A DOLLAR VALUE, THE SAME AS TODAY, THE .6 -- WHATEVER IT IS -- HAS A DIFFERENT DOLLAR VALUE. SO THE CITY IS LOOKING AT THAT AS PART OF WHAT IT BASICALLY PURCHASED. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, COMMISSIONER, I THINK THAT YOU WERE BUYING MAGNOLIA PARK AS CONCEIVED AND VISIONED BY VICTOR DOVER, WHETHER IT WAS .64, .79, OR .84, FOR THAT MATTER. I DON'T THINK ANY OF US REALLY -- MR. MCLEOD: BUT SOMEBODY PUT A DOLLAR VALUE TO THAT ACREAGE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: AT THAT TIME. MR. MCLEOD: WE ALL DID. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WELL, UNFORTUNATELY MR. MCLEOD: AM I NOT CORRECT ON THAT, MR. MCLEMORE? MR. MCLEMORE: YES. WE ALL AGREED IN THE MEETING WE ALL HAD TOGETHER THAT WE HAD TO DEAL WITH ACREAGES AND VALUES IN ORDER TO WORK OUT A BUSINESS ARRANGEMENT, NOT SOME CONCEPT OUT IN THE ETHER SOMEWHERE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THE LANGUAGE THAT'S IN THERE NOW, RON, IS "PROPOSED MAGNOLIA PARK SHALL CONSIST OF NOT LESS THAN .79 ACRES AS DEPICTED ON EXHIBIT A OR SOME OTHER CONFIGURATIONS AGREED UPON BY THE ;;.. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 33 PARTIES IN WRITING. II THE FACT IS VICTOR DOESN'T WANT .79 ACRES, RIGHT? WE CAN'T DO THAT. MR. MCLEMORE: WELL, VICTOR'S SAYING THAT HE DOESN'T WANT TO MAKE THAT ANY LARGER UNLESS HE HAS TO. AND IF HE HAS TO, WE'LL PROBABLY GET INTO A WHOLE NEW DESIGN. WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS WE BELIEVE, THROUGH THIS AGREEMENT, THAT WE ARE PURCHASING THIS FOR A VALUE. 'NOW, THE POINT OF IT -- SO WE'RE ENTITLED TO .79 ACRES. SO IF YOU TAKE SOMETHING OFF THE TABLE, WE HAVE TO TAKE SOMETHING OFF THE TABLE, SO WE'RE JUST CONCEDING FOR THE POINT OF CONCEDING. MR. GRINDSTAFF: NO, NOT FOR THE FUN. THE REALITY OF WHAT THIS IS ABOUT. MR. SCHRIMSHER: WHEN WAS VICTOR GOING TO BE ABLE WHEN WOULD I BE ABLE TO TALK TO VICTOR? FOR BECAUSE I HEARD HE WAS, LIKE, IN A CHARRETTE OR SOMETHING FOR A WHILE. MR. MCLEMORE: YES, HE WAS. MR. SCHRIMSHER: IS HE AVAILABLE TO MR. MCLEMORE: WELL, VICTOR DOESN'T MAKE DECISIONS ON THE DOLLARS. MR. SCHRIMSHER: RIGHT. IT'S JUST -- BUT HE DOES HAVE PRETTY STRONG -- HIS OPINION OR INPUT IS . ~ . . 23 24 25 34 1 HIGHLY VALUED AS FAR AS THE DESIGN OF IT, THE 2 SHAPE OF IT, THE SIZE OF IT. 3 MR. MCLEMORE: NO QUESTION. BUT IT HAS 4 NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CITY. 5 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO 6 HAVE A CHANCE TO TALK TO HIM. NOT ABOUT THE SIZE, 7 NOT ABOUT THE .79, BUT ABOUT DECISION -- YOU KNOW, 8 DECISION-MAKING PROCESS ON THE CURRENT DESIGN AND 9 HOW IT MIGHT CHANGE IF IT -- YOU KNOW, WHERE WE 10 WOULD GET THE OTHER .15 AND 11 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. 12 MR. SCHRIMSHER: -- HOW ELSE IT MIGHT BE 13 CONFIGURED. 14 MR. MCLEMORE: THERE WAS NOTHING SPECIFIC 15 ABOUT WHERE TO GO. WE JUST SAID WE WOULD WORK IT 16 OUT IN THE FUTURE. 17 MR. MARTINEZ: CAN WE SETTLE THIS TONIGHT? IS I'LL GIVE YOU THE KEYS TO THE FORT KNOX. 19 MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL RIGHT. 20 MR. GRINDSTAFF: MAY I MAKE A SUGGESTION? 21 MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. 22 MR. GRINDSTAFF: CAN I JUST CAUCUS ONE SECOND WITH MIKE? MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. IF YOU WANT TO GO IN THE BACK. -. " . . 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 IS 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 35 1 MR. GRINDSTAFF: NO. NO. WE'RE ALL AMONG 2 FRIENDS HERE. 3 (WHEREUPON, A BRIEF RECESS WAS TAKEN.) 4 IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE MAYOR PARTYKA: 5 SUBJECT, YOU NEED TO TALK TO EVERYBODY. OKAY? 6 MR. MCLEOD: MAYOR, ON BREAKS LIKE THIS, 7 DOESN'T THE CITY CLERK HAVE TO SING THE NATIONAL 8 ANTHEM? 9 MAYOR PARTYKA: NO. THIS IS A CHANCE FOR HER TO CATCH UP. MR. BLAKE: THE MINUTES WILL BE DONE TOMORROW. MAYOR PARTYKA: WE PLAN MORE BIRTHDAY PARTIES: THIS WAY. AGAIN, I URGE AGAIN ON DISCUSSIONS, IF IT'S PURELY ONE-ON-ONE, WE CAN'T HAVE TWO PEOPLE KIND OF LISTENING ON THESE DISCUSSIONS. MR. MARTINEZ: GO AHEAD. MR. MCLEOD: GO AHEAD. TALK TO THE MAYOR. MAYOR PARTYKA: I'M SERIOUS NOW. OKAY. THESE KIND OF SIDE-BAR DISCUSSIONS HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL. OKAY. MR. MARTINEZ: SIDE-BAR. YOU BEEN TO COURT LATELY? MR. GRINDSTAFF: RON, ON .15, IF MAGNOLIA . . . 21 22 23 24 25 36 1 PARK STAYS AT .64 ACRES, WHICH WOULD BE THE BETTER 2 DESIGN THAN IF COMING OUT OF VICTOR'S MOUTH, 3 INSTEAD OF GETTING ANY FATTER. BECAUSE SCHRIMSHER 4 CAN'T LIVE WITH ANY FURTHER ENCROACHMENT EITHER 5 WAY, BECAUSE YOU'RE GOING TO ELIMINATE THE 6 BUILDABILITY OF THAT TRIANGLE IF YOU, GO NORTH. 7 YOU'RE GOING TO EAT INTO THE BUILDABILITY GOING 8 SOUTH DOWN HERE. 9 THE .15, WHERE ARE YOU SAYING THAT IT WOULD 10 HAVE TO BE ADDRESSED? WHAT'S VICTOR'S IDEA? HE 11 WON'T RETURN MY PHONE CALLS. 12 MR. SCHRIMSHER: WELL, I HAVEN'T CALLED HIM. 13 I'VE JUST SENT HIM FAXES. AND I UNDERSTAND HE'S 14 OUT. 15 BUT I DON'T KNOW WHY, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THIS 16 CASE, IT DIDN'T STAY AT .59 AND THEN GO TO TAKING 17 .20 SOMEWHERE ELSE. OR WHY IT DOESN'T GO UP TO 18 .69 AND TAKE .10 SOMEWHERE ELSE OR WHY THE MORE 19 TRIANGULAR DESIGN ISN'T -- I MEAN, I JUST WOULD 20 LIKE TO HAVE A CHANCE TO TALK TO HIM TO SEE WHAT THE RATIONALE -- WHAT HIS IDEA ABOUT THIS VERSUS FATTER, SKINNIER, OR OBLONG, AS LONG AS WE DO AGREE ON THE -- IF WE DO AGREE ON THE .79, THEN I WOULD AT LEAST LIKE TO HAVE THAT CHANCE TO EXPLAIN WHAT I'M -- YOU'KNOW, MY VIEW ON THE MATTER AND '-. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 37 HAVE HIM EXPLAIN TO ME, HIS; WHY HE'S RECOMMENDING THIS OVER ANY OTHER POSSIBILITY. YOU KNOW, AS LONG AS WE'VE AGREED ON THE .79 TOTAL. WAS HE GOING TO BE AVAILABLE? HAS HE JUST NOW GONE ON THIS CHARRETTE OR IS HE JUST NOW GETTING BACK? MR. MCLEMORE: I DON'T KNOW. MR. SCHRIMSHER: I THINK, PRETTY QUICKLY -- IF I'M HOLDING HIS DRAWING, AND HE'S HOLDING MINE, WE COULD DO IT BY PHONE PRETTY FAST. I COULDN'T TELL YOU, MICHAEL. MAYOR PARTYKA: DO YOU HAVE A MOBILE? MR. SCHRIMSHER: DO I? MAYOR PARTYKA: CAN YOU CALL HIM UP ON HIS MOBILE? MR. SCHRIMSHER: I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT. I MEAN, HE'S PRETTY CAREFUL. I DON'T KNOW THE REASONS, BUT HE'S PRETTY CAREFUL TO TALK TO ME ONLY IN THE PRESENCE OF SOMEONE REPRESENTING THE CITY, PROBABLY BECAUSE HE WORKS FOR YOU GUYS. JUST, YOU KNOW, FOR WHAT'S PROPER. AND THEN HE TALKS ~O ME WHEN HE'S TOLD TO OR ALLOWED TO OR, YOU KNOW MR. GRINDSTAFF: HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT. HERE'S AN IDEA WHICH WE BUT HOW ABOUT EITHER/OR? . . . 38 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EITHER WE RELOCATE .15 ACRES SOMEWHERE THAT'S ACCEPTABLE TO BOTH PARTIES, OR WE MULTIPLY THAT .15 ACRES TIMES WHATEVER THE VALUE YOU-ALL PUT ON THAT ACRE AND REDUCE WHAT YOU NEED TO DO BY THAT SAME NUMBER? ONE OR THE OTHER. YOU PUT A VALUE ON THE ACREAGE. WE CAN BACK THAT OUT, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT YOU AGREED TO PAY. AND IF YOU DON'T WANT THAT ACRE -- BECAUSE IF IT WAS ALL ABOUT ACREAGE INSTEAD OF LOCATION, THEN WE HAVE ONE OR THE OTHER OPTIONS. WE EITHER CAN AGREE TO WHERE IT GOES OR WE AGREE TO REDUCE THE CITY'S OBLIGATION BY A NUMBER MULTIPLIED BY THE FRACTIONAL ACREAGE TIMES THE COST PER ACRE. MR. MARTINEZ: CITY MANAGER, AGAIN, IF WE GIVE THEM THEIR 4.84 WETLAND PARK, WOULD YOU AGREE TO GIVE US THE .79 IN MAGNOLIA PARK? THAT'S A FAIR EXCHANGE. MR. BLAKE: NO. YOU'RE JUST GIVING UP. MR. GRINDSTAFF: NO. NO. NO. MR. MCLEMORE: YOU GOT .84 YOU'RE DOWN AND .15, SO IN TOTAL, YOU'VE GOT .9 -- MR. SCHRIMSHER: NO. NO. IT'S NOT THAT. IT'S TWO-TENTHS, APPROXIMATELY. A LITTLE LESS THAN TWO-TENTHS OF AN ACRE THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. ,. ~ . . 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 39 1 MR. GRINDSTAFF: IT'S .1584. 2 MR. SCHRIMSHER: NO. 1-9 SOMETHING. 3 MR. BLAKE: .1956. 4 MR. SCHRIMSHER: WE MUST BE THE MATH GUYS. 5 MR. BLAKE: IT'S .1956 ACRES SHORT. 6 BUT WE'RE WILLING -- TO MAKE IT EASIER, I'M 7 WILLING TO CALL IT TWO-TENTHS. I THINK THEY ARE, 8 TOO. 9 MR. MCLEMORE: TWO-TENTHS OF AN ACRE SHORT. 10 MR. MARTINEZ: SETTLE THIS. 11 MAYOR PARTYKA: LET'S DO THIS. COMMISSIONER 12 MCLEOD, DO YOU HAVE A QUESTION? 13 MR. GRINDSTAFF: YOU HAVE A VALUE OF $5,000 AN ACRE, BY THE WAY, ON THE WETLAND. MR. MCLEMORE: NOT ACCORDING TO MINE. MR. MCLEOD: NOT WETLANDS, NO. NOW WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE PARK. MR. BLAKE: THAT WOULD BE UPLANDS. MR. MCLEOD: THAT WAS UPLANDS, CORRECT? MR. SCHRIMSHER: CORRECT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WHAT WAS THE NUMBER? MR. MCLEOD: SO IF I HEAR YOU RIGHT, YOU'RE BASICALLY SAYING YOU'RE WILLING TO EITHER YOU FELLOWS ARE WILLING TO EITHER ACCEPT IT AS A .64 BASED ON WHAT THE CONSULTANT SAYS AND CONVEY .15 . . . 40 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 IS 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ALONG WITH THE OTHER, WHICH, I GUESS, IS A TOTAL OF .1956 OR .2, CORRECT? IS THAT CORRECT, MIKE? MR. SCHRIMSHER: REALLY, WHAT I THINK EVEN MORE THAN THAT, I THINK WHAT I HAD SAID IS IF WE AGREE ON THE .79 ACRES, THEN IT MAY BE .59 HERE AND .2 SOMEWHERE ELSE, OR .64 HERE, '.15 SOMEWHERE ELSE, OR .79 HERE AND NOTHING ANYWHERE ELSE. I THINK I'D JUST LIKE TO HAVE THE CHANCE TO TALK TO VICTOR ABOUT THE TWO GENERALLY BIG IDEAS THAT ARE COMPETING WITH EACH OTHER FOR THE DESIGN OF THIS PARK AND HEAR HIM EXPLAIN TO ME HOW HE DECIDED .64 WAS THE PLACE TO LAND. MR. MCLEOD: I DON'T THINK THE COMMISSION HAS A PROBLEM WITH THAT. I THINK THE THING HERE IS WE'RE JUST CONCERNED THAT THE ACREAGE OF OVERALL PARKS NOW STAYS THE SAME. NOW, WHETHER YOU HAVE TO SHIFT OUT OF THAT ONE TO SOMEWHERE ELSE, THAT'S FINE, OR CONVEY THE MONEY BACK TO US AS TO THAT PARTICULAR PARK, THAT LOCATION OF THAT UPLANDS OF WHAT THAT VALUE WAS FIGURED AT. AND I THINK THAT'S ABOUT WHAT YOU SAID. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT'S WHERE I WAS HEADED. I MEAN, JUST ROUGH NUMBERS INSTEAD OF -- YOU KNOW, IF IT WAS $100,000 ACREAGE CALCULATION, AND WE'RE ~. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 S 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 IS 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . '. 41 TALKING ABOUT .15, YOU'RE NOW TALKING ABOUT $15,000. SO INSTEAD OF $2 MILLION WORTH OF IMPROVEMENTS, YOU'RE LOOKING $1,985,000 WORTH OF IMP.ROVEMENTS. MR. MCLEMORE: TWO-TENTHS OF AN ACRE WERE AGREED ON, TOO. MR. GRINDSTAFF: BUT YOU SEE THAT LOSES WHERE YOU'RE HEADED. WHERE YOU'RE HEADED IS YOU WANT MAGNOLIA PARK. I DON'T THINK YOU CARE WHETHER IT WAS .84 ACRES, .79, .69, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A PARK. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WETLAND PARK. AND WE ARE GETTING BOGGED DOWN BECAUSE OF THE FRACTIONAL ACREAGE THAT WENT THERE. MR. MCLEOD: WELL, I THINK IF IT'S VERY SIMPLE, THEN LET'S NOT BOG IT DOWN THAT WAY. LET'S JUST BOG IT DOWN A SIMPLE WAY. WHATEVER IS REDUCED OUT OF THAT PARTICULAR PARK AND WHATEVER IS REDUCED OFF FROM REDUCED OFF FROM WETLANDS, LET'S ADD IT TO ANY OF THE OTHER PARKS THAT YOU AND THE CONSULTANT AGREE TO DO. MR. MCLEMORE: THAT WOULD SOLVE THE PROBLEM. MR. BLAKE: I AGREE TO THAT. MR. MARTINEZ: THERE YOU GO. CAN'T BE SIMPLER AND SWEETER. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I DON'T THINK THAT WOULD BE . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 42 APPROPRIATE FOR THE WETLAND PARK NUMBER IN THAT WHEN YOU GUYS ARBITRARILY PICKED .04 AS YOUR AMENDMENT LAST WEEK, OR TWO WEEKS AGO, MICHAEL WAS SITTING HERE TALKING ABOUT .05. AND BECAUSE WE'RE AT .484, IN THAT RANGE, THAT SEEMS TO ME TO BE SOMETHING THAT YOU OUGHT TO JUST WORK ON WETLAND PARK. MR. BLAKE: DO YOU RECALL WE -- MR. MCLEOD: I BELIEVE MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. ONE AT A TIME. MR. MCLEOD: EXCUSE ME. I BELIEVE WE WERE AT .3 MR. BLAKE: MR. MCLEOD: THAT'S CORRECT. AND MR. SCHRIMSHER AND YOURSELF BROUGHT IN .4, SO WE MOVED TO .4. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE WERE AT .5 AND MOVED TO .4. MR. MCLEOD: OR 4 PERCENT. EXCUSE ME. NO. IT WAS 4 PERCENT. I NEVER HEARD 5. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I DID. MR. MCLEOD: DID YOU? DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YEAH. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THANK YOU, COMMISSIONER. MR. MARTINEZ: IT WAS A SUGGESTION. MR. GRINDSTAFF: YOU DIDN'T AGREE ANYMORE . . . 43 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THAN HE AGREED TO 4. MR. MCLEOD: WELL, WE FELT THAT WE'D MOVE TO THE 4, BECAUSE WE HAD TO -- NOBODY KNEW WHERE IT WAS LANDING AND WE HAD TO HAVE SOMETHING THAT SAID THIS WAS IT. AND BEYOND THAT WAS A WHOLE NEGOTIATION. AND I BELIEVE THAT'S EXACTLY WHERE IT IS. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. MR. MCLEOD: BUT I STILL GO BACK TO THE SAME THING. ANYTHING TAKEN OUT ABOVE THE 4 PERCENT OF WETLANDS NOW AND ANYTHING THAT IS TAKEN OUT OF MAGNOLIA PARK THEN WOULD BE SHIFTED TO THE OTHER PARKS. YOU AND THE CONSULTANTS CHOOSE THE OTHER PARKS. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT WAS -- DID YOU SAY UNH-UNH? MR. SCHRIMSHER: I JUST SAID UH-HUH. I UNDERSTAND WHAT HE'S SAYING. MR. MCLEOD: WELL, UH-HUH IS CLOSE TO YES. MAYOR PARTYKA: LET'S DO THIS JUST TO GET THE POSITION. DOES THE COMMISSION AGREE WITH THAT POSITION? NODDING. NODDING. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YES. MAYOR PARTYKA: IT SHOWS THAT THERE'S A CONSENSUS ON THAT POSITION. . . . 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 44 1 MR. MCLEOD: AND I THINK IT'S IN LIGHT OF 2 TRYING TO RESOLVE THIS THING AND LET'S -- YOU 3 KNOW, WE'VE AGREED TO THE OTHER ISSUES YOU BROUGHT 4 UP AT THIS POINT, WHICH WERE ALL GOOD ISSUES. 5 MR. BLAKE: LET'S PUT IT TO BED. 6 MR. MCLEOD: SO I THINK WE'RE AT A POINT, 7 LET'S GO TO BED. 8 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I THINK THAT PROPOSAL WOULD 9 WORK WITH REGARD TO THE .15 OF MAGNOLIA PARK, BUT 10 NOT ON THE WETLANDS. IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK. 11 MAYOR PARTYKA: WHAT DO YOU WANT? 12 MR. GRINDSTAFF: COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ'S 13 PROPOSAL PROBABLY WORKS WITH THE MODIFICATION OF MR. MCLEOD'S PROPOSAL; THAT IS, REDUCE THE WETLAND i PARK BY THE NUMBER THAT MIKE'S FOLKS PROPOSED, WHICH IS 4.84 OR .0484. WETLAND PARK WOULD BE I MEAN, MAGNOLIA PARK WOULD BE -- ANYTHING LESS THAN .79 WOULD BE MADE UP ELSEWHERE. SO YOUR PROPOSAL -- YOUR ADJUSTMENT, YOUR ELSEWHERE PROPOSAL, WOULD ONLY APPLY TO MAGNOLIA PARK, NOT THE EXCESS IN WETLAND PARK. THAT, COUPLED WITH RON'S SUGGESTION WITH REGARD TO EDGE DRIVE, WE'LL WORK TOGETHER TO GET THE STATE'S APPROVAL. IF WE CAN'T GET IT, WE WILL REVISIT IT AGAIN HERE, NOT JUST, YOU KNOW, DRAW ON THE ~ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 45 SCHRIMSHER PROPERTY. WE WILL WORK TOGETHER TO DO SOMETHING MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL, MUTUALLY ACCEPTABLE. I THINK THAT, COUPLED WITH AN INSTRUCTION TO STAFF TO GO CLEAN THIS AGREEMENT UP LIKE THAT, WOULD RESULT IN A FINAL AGREEMENT. ,NOT TO MENTION, I DON'T THINK WE CAN PASS AN ORDINANCE TONIGHT, BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE A ZONING OFFICER, A MEMBER THE ZONING BOARD WITH US HERE TONIGHT. I THINK HE LEFT. MR. MARTINEZ: CUTE. CUTE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: NO. I'M NOT BEING CUTE. I DON'T WANT TO BE DEFECTIVE AND HAVE ANYBODY HERE TO CHALLENGE YOUR ORDINANCE, HAVE SOMETHING TO ARGUE ABOUT. MR. MCLEMORE: I DON'T THINK THIS IS ABOUT ZONING. MR. MCLEOD: THIS ISN'T ABOUT THE ZONING. MR. MARTINEZ: GOOD TRY, THOUGH. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THERE'S A TWO-PART HEARING TONIGHT. ONE'S THE ZONING AND ONE'S THE AGREEMENT. WE FINALIZE THE AGREEMENT. WE GET IT OUT THERE NOTICED PROPERLY AND WE GET IT OUT THERE FOR EVERYONE TO READ IT. TWO WEEKS FROM NOW, WE NAIL IT DOWN. . . . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 46 1 MR. MCLEMORE: ARE YOU AGREEING TO THE 2 TWO-TENTHS WOULD BE PUT SOMEWHERE ELSE IN THE 3 PARKS? IF YOU DO THAT, THIS DEAL IS DONE, FROM 4 WHAT I'M HEARING THE COMMISSION SAY. TWO-TENTHS 5 PLUS THE CHANGE THAT WE MUTUALLY WORK TO A 6 MUTUALLY ACCEPTABLE SOLUTION ON EDG~ DRIVE. WE 7 GOT A DEAL -- ON MAGNOLIA PARK. 8 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I DON'T THINK YOU'RE TALKING 9 TWO-TENTHS, ARE YOU? 10 MR. SCHRIMSHER: HE'S TALKING ABOUT ON THIS. 11 MR. MCLEMORE: BETWEEN THE TWO, YOU'VE GOT 12 TWO-TENTHS OF AN ACRE. 13 MR. BLAKE: SO YOU'RE GIVING UP .15 ACRES. 14 MR. GRINDSTAFF: NO. HE'S WRONG, SIR. 15 MR. BLAKE: THE OTHER ONE, I THOUGHT HE SAID, 16 COMES TO TWO-TENTHS. 17 MR. MCLEMORE: NO. THE OTHER ONE IS 18 TWO-TENTHS. MR. BLAKE: OH, OKAY. SO YOU'VE GOT -- MR. MCLEMORE: YOU'VE GOT .35. MR. SCHRIMSHER: I WOULD JUST ASK THAT YOU LOOK AT THIS DRAWING AND SEE THAT THE -- I DIDN'T JUST CRAM THE ROAD AGAINST IT. WE LEFT A MINIMUM 10-FOOT BUFFER THAT IT DOES GET OBVIOUSLY FATTER. BUT THESE ARE QUITE NICE, USABLE -- EACH OF THESE ~. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 47 IS ABOUT, BY ITSELF, APPROXIMATELY A HALF ACRE. AND THEN, WHEN ADDED IN WITH OTHER SMALLER PIECES AND ALL THE CONNECTING STRIPS, THAT WE GOT WITHIN JUST UNDER TWO-TENTHS OF AN ACRE OF WHAT WE WERE SHOOTING FOR. SO I WAS PRETTY PLEASED WITH THE NUMBER AND THE WAY IT LOOKS AS A DESIGN. MR. MCLEMORE: BUT YOUR COMP PLAN SAYS 25 FEET FROM THE WETLANDS OR ROADSIDE. MR. SCHRIMSHER: I'M NOT FAMILIAR WITH THAT, BUT I THINK IT SAYS IN THAT REGARD THAT THAT WOULD BE MEASURED TO A CURB. AND THIS IS SHOWING A RIGHT-OF-WAY WHICH IS NOT PAVED FROM EDGE TO EDGE. AND SO THE BUFFER OF 10 FOOT IS FROM THE RIGHT-OF-WAY LINE TO THE WETLAND LINE, WHICH WOULD! BE A GREATER BUFFER FROM THE PAVEMENT EDGE TO THE WETLAND LINE. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. AS BEST AS I CAN DETERMINE, THE DIFFERENTIAL BETWEEN AGREEMENT HERE, BETWEEN ALL THE PIECES THAT WE TALKED ABOUT, IS 8712 SQUARE FEET. THAT'S A DIFFERENTIAL BETWEEN THIS COMMISSION'S POSITION AND YOUR POSITION, 8712. TWO-TENTHS OF AN ACRE; .3 AFTER I DO ALL THE SUBTRACTIONS, BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING .79, AND THE EXCESS GOES SOMEPLACE. IT REALLY COMES DOWN TO 4.84 VERSUS THE 4. THAT'S THE ~. . 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 .. 48 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 DIFFERENTIAL RIGHT NOW. MR. SCHRIMSHER: YOU'RE SAYING THAT BECAUSE YOU'RE RECOGNIZING THAT WE'RE AGREEING ON THE .79. MAYOR PARTYKA: IT'S THE SAME THING. I MEAN, THE ONLY DIFFERENTIAL BETWEEN THE TWO POSITIONS HERE IS 4.84 OR 4.0. IT'S 8712. IT'S 100 BY 80 FEET. IS THERE A COMMON GROUND, A COMPROMISE GROUND? MR. MARTINEZ: IT'S A SLIVER OF LAND. MR. BLAKE: MAYOR, IF I MAY. MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. COMMISSIONER BLAKE. MR. BLAKE: IF YOU'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT HOW FAR AWAY WE ARE -- AND I THINK IT'S APPROPRIATE TO HAVE THAT DISCUSSION -- YOU HAVE TO RECALL WHERE IT IS THAT WE CAME FROM. BECAUSE TWO WEEKS AGO WE WERE AT 23.36 ACRES. WE AGREED TO HAVE SOME FLEXIBILITY IN THAT WE WOULD GO DOWN AS LOW AS, BUT NOT LOWER THAN, 4 PERCENT VARIANCE FROM THAT NUMBER, WHICH WAS 22.4256 ACRES. SO WE AGREED TO COME DOWN ALMOST A FULL ACRE. WHEN THEIR NUMBERS COME IN, THEIR NUMBERS ARE IN EXCESS OF AN ACRE. INDEED, IT'S ABOUT A 23 PERCENT INCREASE OVER AND ABOVE WHAT WE ALLOWED THEM. THAT'S WHAT OUR POSITION WAS. 14 ~ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 49 SO IT'S NOT JUST A MATTER OF ARE WE TALKING ABOUT 8,000 SQUARE FEET. WHAT WE'RE REALLY TALKING ABOUT HERE IS ABOUT 46, 47,000 SQUARE FEET ON THAT PARTICULAR PARCEL. YOU GOT TO KEEP THAT IN MIND. AND WE HAVEN'T HAD ANY DISCUSSION HERE ABOu1, WELL, ARE WE GOING TO BUILD THIS ROAD OR NOT? OR WHERE IS THIS ROAD GOING TO START OR WHERE IS THIS ROAD GOING TO END? ARE WE GOING TO BUILD SEWERS OR WATER PIPES OR NOT, AND WHERE ARE THEY GOING TO START AND WHERE ARE THEY GOING TO END? AND THE REASON IS BECAUSE THE ROAD, IT'S VERY BASIC. IT HAS A BEGINNING, IT HAS AN END. IT HAS TO GET FROM ONE POINT TO ANOTHER. THE WATER AND SEWER LINES HAVE TO CONNECT, AND THEY'RE EITHER THERE OR THEY AREN'T. WE HAVEN'T MADE ANY OFFER TO BUILD THE SEWER LINE ONLY HALFWAY TO THE PARCEL. BUT, IN FACT, MAYBE THAT'S WHAT WE OUGHT TO TALK ABOUT. BECAUSE WHEN THAT DEAL WAS PUT TOGETHER, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT A CERTAIN NUMBER OF ACRES HERE, A CERTAIN NUMBER OF ACRES THERE, A CERTAIN NUMBER OF PARKS. WE GAVE THEM THE PRECIOUS TRIANGLE THAT THEY WANTED. WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THAT ANYMORE. ~ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . .. 50 MR. SCHRIMSHER: WHAT DESIGN MR. GRINDSTAFF: WHAT DO YOU MEAN? YOU GAVE THE GUY THE PROPERTY THAT HE ALREADY OWNS? YOU GAVE HIM HIS PROPERTY? MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. COMMISSIONERS. MR. GRINDSTAFF: ARE YOU GOING ~O ALLOW HIM TO DO SOMETHING WITH HIS PROPERTY? MR. BLAKE: I THINK YOU KNOW EXACTLY MR. GRINDSTAFF: NO. I DO KNOW EXACTLY -- I MEAN, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT MAYOR PARTYKA: PLEASE. PLEASE. LET'S-- MR. BLAKE: WE GAVE YOU THAT AND WE DIDN'T CUT THE ROAD LENGTH. WE DIDN'T CUT THE -- MR. SCHRIMSHER: NO. IF YOU DO THAT, IT'S OVER ANYWAY. YOU WANT TO BUILD US A HALF A ROAD. IT'S A JOKE. BUT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU WANT TO TAKE A STARTING POINT TO COMPARE FROM -- I MEAN, I CAN JUST TURN THIS RIGHT AROUND ON YOU AND SAY, WELL, MY STARTING POINT IS THE WETLAND LINE. BECAUSE IF I WERE DESIGNING THIS WITHOUT YOU-ALL'S -- MR. BLAKE: HELP. MR. SCHRIMSHER: THAT'S A NICE WORD. I WOULD NOT BUILD A SINGLE (INAUDIBLE) ROAD HERE AND EVERY INCH OF UPLAND WOULD BE DEVELOPABLE. AND I WOULD . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 51 SMOOTH OUT THESE ROUGH EDGES. IN FACT, I WOULDN'T AND YOU KNOW THAT'S COMMON PRACTICE. AND SO THE FACT THAT WE'RE TRAPPING UPLANDS AT ALL IS A SURRENDER ON OUR PART FROM OUR ORIGINAL POSITION. AND ALSO, THE FACT THAT -- I MEAN, THIS ROAD, YOU CHOOSE A SPEED LIMIT, CHOOSE A RADIUS THAT YOU CAN SAFELY DRIVE AT THAT SPEED LIMIT, THIS ROAD CAN BE DESIGNED TO HUG THESE WETLANDS CLOSER. YOU KNOW, THE CURVES DON'T ALL HAVE TO BE CONVEX. THEY CAN BE CONCAVE, TOO. AND IN FACT, IF YOU RUN THAT THROUGH THE COMPUTER, YOU'LL COME UP WITH ABOUT AN -- YOU CAN COME UP WITH, EASILY, AN 8 PERCENT REDUCTION. MR. BLAKE: RIGHT. I UNDERSTAND THAT. MR. SCHRIMSHER: SO THIS IS SOMETHING TO MR. BLAKE: AND YOU CAN BUILD THE ROAD AND YOU CAN BRING WATER THERE AND YOU CAN BRING SEWER THERE. MR. SCHRIMSHER: AND I'LL BUILD IT SOMEWHERE ELSE, BECAUSE I DON'T WANT IT THERE. I MEAN, SO YOU WANT TO BACK IT UP TO WHERE WE CAME FROM. IN OTHER WORDS, I'M SAYING ANYTIME MR. BLAKE: WE'RE DOING SOME VALUABLE THINGS FOR YOU AND YOU'RE DOING SOME VALUABLE THINGS FOR US. ~. ~ . . 52 1 MR. SCHRIMSHER: EXACTLY. 2 MR. BLAKE: AND YOU KNOW, WE REALLY DON'T 3 WANT TO REGRESS THE CONVERSATION THAT FAR, BUT THE 4 ONLY PART I'M -- 5 MR. SCHRIMSHER: WELL, I DON'T WANT YOU TO 6 REGRESS IT TO THE POINT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT 7 UNLESS YOU WANT TO HEAR ME SAY WHERE WE COULD 8 REGRESS IT TO, ALTERNATIVELY. 9 MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL RIGHT. LET'S -- 10 MR. BLAKE: THE WHOLE POINT IS, MAYOR, WE'RE 11 NOT TALKING ABOUT 8,000 SQUARE FEET. 12 MR. SCHRIMSHER: NO. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT 22 13 ACRES. 14 MR. BLAKE: NEXT WEEK, IT WILL BE ANOTHER 400 15 SQUARE FEET. 16 MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL I WAS TRYING TO MAKE A 17 POINT -- 18 MR. SCHRIMSHER: THE HORRIBLE DOWNSIDE IS IF 19 WE MANAGE TO KEEP MORE UPLANDS DEVELOPABLE, YOU'LL 20 JUST HAVE MORE TAXABLE PROPERTY. SO YOU KNOW, 21 WE'RE TRYING TO FIND A BALANCE. 22 MR. BLAKE: WHY WOULD YOU HAVE ANY PARKS AT 23 ALL, THEN? BECAUSE THEY DO HAVE VALUE. WHY WOULD 24 YOU HAVE ROADS? JUST DEVELOP IT ALL. 25 MR. SCHRIMSHER: WELL, IF I DIDN'T RECOGNIZE - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . '. 53 THE VALUE OF PARKS AND ROADS, WE WOULDN'T EVEN BE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION. OBVIOUSLY, IT'S TRYING TO FIND THE BALANCE, AND IT'S NOT SURPRISING THAT WE HAVE A SLIGHT DIFFERENCE OF OPINION ON SOMETHING THIS SIGNIFICANT. WE'RE NOT JUST -- I'M NOT JUST CUTTING A HAMBURGER IN HALF AND LETTING YOU PICK WHICH HALF YOU WANT. IT'S A LITTLE MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. LET'S MOVE ON. COMMISSIONER BLAKE, ANYTHING ADDITIONAL? MR. BLAKE: NO. I'D JUST LIKE TO MOVE ON. MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. MR. MCLEOD: CAN WE GET BACK TO WHAT I ORIGINALLY SAID WE SHOULD AGREE TO? MR. BLAKE: SURE. I'LL AGREE TO THAT. MAYOR PARTYKA: THIS COMMISSION'S ALREADY AGREED TO THAT. I MEAN, THE POSITION OF THE COMMISSION IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID; 4 PERCENT MAGNOLIA AND -- MR. MCLEOD: I'M JUST TRYING TO BACK DOWN THE HEATED DISCUSSION AND GET BACK TO MR. GRINDSTAFF: AND GO BACK TO THE SOURCE OF THE HEAT. THAT'S WHERE YOU'RE GOING. MAYOR PARTYKA: AGAIN, THAT'S THE COMMISSION'S POSITION. AGAIN, I'VE PUT OUT YOUR . . 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . 54 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 POSITION. ALL I'M TRYING TO SAY IS THAT'S THE POSITION RIGHT NOW. IT'S A RELATIVELY SMALL NUMBER AT THIS POINT IN TIME. THAT'S IT. I MEAN, I CAN'T STATE ANY MORE THAN THAT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I THINK COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ HAD AN EXCELLENT IDEA, AND WE DIDN'T GO THAT FAR. HE'S SAYING YOU GET THE WETLANDS AREA, WE GET MAGNOLIA PARK. WE DIDN'T GO THAT FAR. WE'RE SAYING MAGNOLIA PARK, INSTEAD OF STICKING AT .64, WE'LL DO THE .15, TRY TO FIND A PLACE FOR IT WITH VICTOR, FOR THE .15, BUT REDUCE WETLAND PARK BY THE .0484, OR WHATEVER THAT NUMBER IS, AND WE WORK WITH RON ON THE STATE ISSUE. AND I THINK WE'RE THERE. MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER BLAKE. MR. BLAKE: IF WE WERE TO AGREE TO WHAT YOU JUST SAID -- AND I CAN'T SPEAK FOR MY FELLOW COMMISSIONERS -- BUT IF WE WERE TO AGREE TO THAT, ARE YOU WILLING TO SIT HERE, WRITE IT DOWN ON PAPER, MAKE THE ADJUSTMENTS RIGHT NOW, AND SIGN IT RIGHT NOW? MR. GRINDSTAFF: NO. MR. BLAKE: THEN, MAYOR, MOTION TO ADJOURN. MR. GRINDSTAFF: YOU CAN ADJOURN. IT'S 11:30. YOU KNOW WHAT 15 '. " . . 23 24 25 55 1 MR. BLAKE: IF WE CAN'T COME TO AN 2 AGREEMENT -- 3 MR. GRINDSTAFF: YOU KNOW WHAT YOU WANT TO 4 SAY. YOU CAN AGREE, AND WE'LL WORK WITH STAFF IN 5 TWO WEEKS 6 MAYOR PARTYKA: IF I MAY, IN THE SPIRIT OF 7 TRYING TO -- JUST ANSWER WHY. THAT'S ALL. IT MAY 8 BE BENEFICIAL. 9 MR. GRINDSTAFF: BECAUSE IT'S 11:30. WE'VE 10 GOT TO AGREE TO THE LANGUAGE. WE'VE GOT TO NAIL 11 IT DOWN. AND EVERYONE'S GOING TO SIT AROUND HERE 12 WHILE WE'RE DOING THAT. WE'RE GOING TO END UP 13 WITH A PIECE OF GARBAGE HERE AND END UP SIGNING 14 IT. 15 NOW, THE WILLINGNESS IS ONE THING. DOING IT 16 IS ANOTHER. I THINK IF YOU LET US DO THE RIGHT 17 THING, LET US CLEAN IT UP TO WHERE YOU'RE TELLING 18 US TO CLEAN IT UP AND TELLING STAFF TO CLEAN IT 19 UP, AND THEN LET'S BRING IT BACK AND DO IT RIGHT. 20 MR. BLAKE: I THOUGHT WE'VE AGREED ON ALL 21 THOSE ADJUSTMENTS AT THIS POINT IN TIME. 22 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WHO'S GOING TO PUT IT ON THE MACHINE? MR. SCHRIMSHER: I GUESS WHAT I THINK HE'S SAYING -- I THINK I KNOW WHAT HE'S SAYING, WHICH ~. . . 56 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 IS, I'LL AGREE WITH WHAT YOU SAID; THAT, IN CONCEPT, I WOULD SIGN IT, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE WE CAN MAKE THE CHANGES. I MEAN, DO YOU WANT US TO WRITE THEM IN BY HAND ON HOWEVER MANY COPIES ARE NEEDED, START INITIALING? LET'S JUST -- SHE'S TAKING IT DOWN. IF WE MAKE THE CHANGES THAT WE'VE DISCUSSED, WE'LL SIGN THAT. I DON'T THINK WE NEED TO SIT HERE AND DO IT IN CHICKEN SCRATCH. MR. BLAKE: THE PROBLEM IS THAT EVERY TIME WE AGREE TO SOMETHING -- MR. SCHRIMSHER: THAT'S NOT TRUE. I DISAGREE WITH YOU SAYING THAT. JUST LIKE WHAT YOU SAID EARLIER. I'M TRYING TO LET SOME OF THESE REMARKS SLIDE, SAYING THAT TWO WEEKS FROM NOW, I'LL BE TRYING TO GRAB ANOTHER 500 FEET OR SOMETHING. MR. GRINDSTAFF: LET ME ASK YOU THIS. IF WE MADE THE CHANGES RIGHT NOW AND SIGNED IT, WOULD YOU INSTRUCT MR. MCLEMORE TO SIGN IT? MR. BLAKE: WE WOULD INSTRUCT THE MAYOR. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THE MAYOR. I THOUGHT YOU ORDERED MR. MCLEMORE ONCE BEFORE. MR. MCLEMORE: MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO ME. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT WOULD BE A SLOPPY PIECE ~. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 57 OF WORK, BY THE WAY. MR. BLAKE: I UNDERSTAND. IT WOULDN'T BE AS NEAT AND TIDY. BUT THE MAJOR POINTS WOULD BE NAILED DOWN AND WE WOULDN'T HAVE TO COME BACK IN TWO WEEKS AND GO THROUGH -- AND THIS WILL BE ON THE RECORD, TOO -- AND GO THROUGH THIS EXACT SAME EXERCISE AGAIN FROM ALL THE NEW -- THERE COMES A TIME WHERE YOU'VE GOT TO STOP SEARCHING. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THANK YOU FOR TELLING US THAT. THANK YOU FOR TELLING US THAT. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. THERE IS A PROPOSAL BY COMMISSIONER BLAKE TO, IN EFFECT, COMMIT POTENTIALLY TO YOUR POSITION PROVIDED THIS GETS PUT DOWN IN WRITING. WE'LL DO THAT SOME OTHER TIME. MR. BLAKE: IT WOULD HAVE TO BE TONIGHT. MAYOR PARTYKA: RIGHT. IT WOULD HAVE TO BE TONIGHT. COMMISSIONER MCLEOD, YOU HAD YOUR LIGHT ON. BUT, COMMISSIONER BLAKE, WE'LL TAKE A QUICK POLL ON THAT, TOO. MR. MCLEOD: I WAS JUST GOING BACK TO SEE IF YOU WOULD AGREE WITH WHAT I HAD ORIGINALLY SAID. MR. GRINDSTAFF: NO. MR. MCLEOD: I HATE TO SEE US GET OFF TRACK ~. . . 58 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 HERE. MR. SCHRIMSHER: NO. YOU KNOW MAYOR PARTYKA: JUST STAY WITH THIS FOR A SECOND, BECAUSE IT MAY BE A MOOT POINT ANYWAY. COMMISSIONER BLAKE HAD A POSITION. AND I THINK THE RIGHT THING TO DO IS JUST TO POLL THE COMMISSIONERS IF YOU AGREE WITH THAT POSITION. I'M GOING TO START DOWN THERE WITH COMMISSIONER MILLER. MR. MCLEOD: WHY DON'T YOU OUTLINE WHAT THAT POSITION IS, MAYOR. MAYOR PARTYKA: IT'S BASICALLY COMMITTING TO THE 4.81, THEN IF IT GOES TO LESS THAN 7.9, THAT WOULD BE MADE UP ELSEWHERE. SO IN OTHER WORDS, WE KEEP THE .79. MR. GRINDSTAFF: OR THERE, IF RECONFIGURATION CAN BE DEALT WITH. MAYOR PARTYKA: RIGHT. AND THEN THE LAST PIECE WAS -- I DIDN'T GET THIS RIGHT -- BUT THE COMMENTS THAT MR. MCLEMORE MADE PERTAINING TO WORKING OUT A MUTUAL AGREEMENT. MR. BLAKE: YES. RIGHT. MAYOR PARTYKA: IS THAT RIGHT? MR. BLAKE: EMBODYING ALL THE OTHER CHANGES THAT WERE MADE THIS EVENING, AS WELL, THE CLEANUP 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ~ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . -. 59 LANGUAGE, ET CETERA. MAYOR PARTYKA: SO THAT'S KIND OF COMMISSIONER BLAKE'S POSITION. COMMISSIONER MILLER. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I'M NOT GOING TO SIGN IT TONIGHT. WE WILL SIGN IN TWO WEEKS WHAT WE'VE AGREED TO TONIGHT. MAYOR PARTYKA: WELL, LET'S JUST TAKE IT ONE POINT AT A TIME. MR. GRINDSTAFF: YOU'RE WASTING A BUNCH OF TIME TALKING ABOUT THAT. MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER MILLER. MR. MILLER: WOULD YOU GO OVER THE 4.84 AGAIN? MAYOR PARTYKA: THAT'S INSTEAD OF 4.0 PERCENT, EITHER PLUS OR MINUS, IT'S 4.84. MR. MILLER: IT'S GOING UP? MR. BLAKE: .1952 ACRES. MAYOR PARTYKA: AND THEN LESS -- MR. MILLER: LITTLE BIT LESS THAN THE .20 PERCENT OF AN ACRE, CORRECT? A FIFTH. A FIFTH OF AN ACRE. MR. BLAKE: OR LESS. MAYOR PARTYKA: THEN.2 WAS -- MR. MILLER: THAT GOES ELSEWHERE TO SOME .,. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 60 OTHER PART. MAYOR PARTYKA: CONSISTENT WITH ALL MR. MILLER: YES. AND IT WILL TO ANOTHER PARK SOMEPLACE ELSE. MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL RIGHT. MARTINEZ. MR. MARTINEZ: MR. MCLEMORE: IT'S A .79, WHICH IS COM.MISSIONER CITY MANAGER. YES. MR. MARTINEZ: IS THIS SUGGESTION AGREEABLE TO YOU? WELL, YOU'VE BEEN NEGOTIATING, SO I HAVE TO GET YOUR TAKE ON IT. MR. MCLEMORE: I THINK IT'S EXTREMELY LIBERAL ON YOUR PART. I WOULD RATHER HAVE TWO-TENTHS DF AN ACRE BACK IN THE OTHER PARKS. MR. BLAKE: THAT WAS ONLY IF THEY SIGNED IT TONIGHT. THEY'VE ALREADY SAID THAT THEY WON'T SIGN IT TONIGHT. SO AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED, THAT CARROT WOULD BE OFF THE TABLE, FROM MY STANDPOINT. MAYOR PARTYKA: LET'S FINISH THE POLL. COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. MR. MARTINEZ: HE HASN'T FINISHED. YES OR NO? MR. MCLEMORE: TO GET IT SIGNED TONIGHT? MR. MARTINEZ: YES. ". . . 61 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MCLEMORE: I'D GO ALONG WITH THAT. MR. MCLEOD: BUT YOU'RE NOT SIGNING TONIGHT. MAYOR PARTYKA: WE DON'T KNOW THAT. WE DON'T KNOW. WAIT UNTIL WE GET THE POSITION HERE. COMMISSIONER GENNELL. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: .79 ON MAGNOLIA. ANYTHING LESS, THE DIFFERENCE GOES SOMEWHERE ELSE. MAYOR PARTYKA: THAT'S CORRECT. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: OKAY. ANYTHING LESS TO WHAT POINT? NO LESS THAN MR. MCLEMORE: .64. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: IT'S IMPORTANT THAT THAT FIGURE GETS PUT IN THERE. MR. MCLEMORE: I WOULD PREFER YOU AGREE IT GOES TO ONE OF THE OTHER PARKS INSTEAD OF A CORNER SOMEWHERE WHERE IT CAN'T BE USED FOR ANYTHING. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: RELUCTANTLY. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. MR. MCLEOD: WOULD I AGREE? NO. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. WELL, RIGHT NOW, THIS COMMISSION IS SAYING THAT THEY WOULD AGREE TO THE 4.84. IF IT'S LESS THAN .79, BUT NO LESS THAN .64, IT WOULD BE MOVED IN SOME OTHER PARK AREA. AND THEN WE ALSO AGREE TO THE WORDING FOR ~. . . 21 22 23 24 25 62 1 MR. MCLEMORE'S WHATEVER -- I STILL DON'T HAVE THE 2 RIGHT -- THE MUTUAL AGREEMENT. OKAY. 3 BUT THEY'VE ALSO SAID THAT THERE HAS TO BE 4 SOMETHING WRITTEN DOWN TONIGHT. 5 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE HAVE THE COURT REPORTER 6 HERE. WE'LL LIVE WITH WHAT WE HAVE.. THIS IS IT. 7 WE'RE NOT GOING TO SIT HERE AND DO A PIECE OF 8 SLOPPY WORK THAT WE CAN ALL FIGHT OVER FOR THE 9 NEXT 20 YEARS. 10 MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL RIGHT. 11 MR. SCHRIMSHER: WELL, I MEAN 12 MAYOR PARTYKA: GO AHEAD. RESTATE WHERE THE 13 DIFFERENCE IS. 14 MR. SCHRIMSHER: IT'S AN INSULT. YOU CAN SAY 15 IT'S NOT, BUT THE FACT THAT WE'RE HAVING A 16 DISCUSSION TONIGHT ABOUT A FEW THINGS TO CLEAN UP 17 WITH THIS AGREEMENT IS BECAUSE BOTH SIDES, AS YOU 18 MAKE CORRECTIONS, THE LITTLE THINGS YOU DIDN'T I AND IT' sl I i 19 ANTICIPATE SHOW UP AND NEED TO BE FIXED. 20 TO EVERYONE'S BENEFIT TO GET IT RIGHT. SO, YOU KNOW, TO ACCUSE US OF YOU KNOW, THAT THE REASON YOU NEED TO DO THIS IS BECAUSE WE WILL JUST PULL SOMETHING AGAIN TWO WEEKS FROM NOW JUST LIKE WE'RE DOING TONIGHT -- MR. GRINDSTAFF: TAKE WHATEVER ACTION YOU -. , . . 20 21 22 23 24 25 63 1 NEED TO TAKE RIGHT NOW. 2 MAYOR PARTYKA: HOLD IT. HOLD IT. NO ONE'S 3 ACCUSING YOU OF THAT. 4 MR. GRINDSTAFF: YOU TAKE YOUR ACTION AND 5 LET'S MOVE ON. 6 MAYOR PARTYKA: NO ONE'S ACCUSING THAT. 7 MR. SCHRIMSHER: I THINK WE CAN FINISH IT, 8 BUT 9 MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL RIGHT. COMMISSIONER 10 MCLEOD AND THEN COMMISSIONER GENNELL AND THEN 11 MR. MCLEOD: OKAY. SO IT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE 12 THAT'S AN AGREEABLE SOLUTION. SO BACK TO WHAT I 13 SAID BEFORE. IF WE TAKE -- I THINK WHERE WE'RE 14 REALLY AT RIGHT NOW IS THE DIFFERENCE ON THE 15 WETLANDS, THE .84. 16 ARE YOU GUYS WILLING TO SPLIT THE DIFFERENCE 17 ON THAT? 18 MR. GRINDSTAFF: ARE YOU WILLING TO SPLIT THE 19 DIFFERENCE ON MAGNOLIA PARK? MR. MCLEOD: PARDON? MR. GRINDSTAFF: ARE YOU WILLING TO SPLIT THE DIFFERENCE ON THE .15 OF MAGNOLIA PARK DOWN THE MR. MCLEOD: MAGNOLIA PARK IS OUT OF THE ISSUE. WE'VE ALREADY DECIDED THAT .79 WAS IT. AND DOWN TO .64, WE'RE GOING TO MOVE IT SOMEWHERE ~. . . 25 64 1 ELSE. 2 MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT'S BECAUSE THAT THE 3 OTHER ONE WAS ON THE TABLE. IT'S LIKE WHAT 4 COMMISSIONER BLAKE SAID. YOU CAN'T JUST START 5 THERE AND SAY, THAT'S SETTLED AND HERE WE ARE. 6 MR. MCLEOD: OKAY. I STARTED MY CONVERSATION 7 OUT BY SAYING THAT I BELIEVE WE'RE DOWN TO THE 8 .84 . OKAY? 9 AND. ALL I'M ASKING HERE IS LET'S GET IT DOWN 10 SO THAT WE CAN ALL COME TO AN AGREEMENT. THEN 11 EVERYBODY CAN TAKE THIS THING OVER THE NEXT TWO 12 WEEKS, PUT IT IN WRITING, MICKEY, BRING IT BACK TO 13 US SO EVERYBODY'S WILLING TO SIGN IT OFF, CLEAN 14 THE DOCUMENT UP. I TOTALLY AGREE WITH WHAT YOU'RE 15 SAYING TO CLEAN IT UP, HAVE EVERYTHING SO 16 EVERYBODY'S READY TO SIGN EXACTLY ON THE DOTTED 17 LINE AS TO WHAT IT IS. OKAY. I DON'T DISAGREE 18 WITH THAT. 19 ALL I'M SAYING IS LET'S GET DOWN TO 20 KNIT HERE, WHICH I BELIEVE WE'RE AT .84. LET'S 21 GET THAT RESOLVED. I'M WILLING TO SPLIT THAT WITH 22 YOU AT THIS TIME AND PUT IT SOMEWHERE ELSE SO 23 THAT -- ONE OF THE OTHER PARKS OR ALL THE PARKS OR 24 SPREAD IT OFF. I DON'T CARE. I MEAN, THAT'S WHERE WE'RE REALLY AT, WE'RE . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 65 REALLY DOWN TO. I DON'T THINK ANYBODY NEEDS TO COME BACK HERE AGAIN AND SPEND THREE OR FOUR, FIVE OR SIX HOURS TRYING TO GET TO THE SAME POINT. ALL THE WAY TH~OUGH THIS, YOU'VE GIVEN -- MR. SCHRIMSHER, YOU'VE GIVEN, THE CITY'S GIVEN, EVERYBODY'S GIVEN IN THE NEGOTIATIONS. AND I HOPE THAT NOBODY, AT THIS TIME, JUST DRAWS A HARD LINE IN THE SAND AND SAYS, HEY, EVERYBODY'S DONE NEGOTIATING. I'D JUST LIKE TO SEE US FINISH IT AND ALL GO HOME. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. I GUESS I'D LIKE TO CLARIFY SOMETHING. GO AHEAD. COMMISSIONER GENNELL FIRST. MR. MARTINEZ: NO. NO. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: LET'S WAIT FOR HIM TO RESPOND TO HIS QUESTION. MR. MCLEOD: I THINK IT'S A FAIR OFFER. LET'S JUST CLEAN IT UP AND GO HOME. MR. SCHRIMSHER: MS. GENNELL JUST RAISED AN INTERESTING POINT WHEN SHE SAID IT WILL MATTER TO HER WHERE THE .15 GOES OR, IN YOUR CASE, I'M SURE, WHERE THE .20 OR, IF WE AGREED TO SPLIT THE DIFFERENCE, THE .10. AND THAT'S, YOU KNOW, AN EXAMPLE OF THE KIND OF THINGS THAT HAPPENS. MR. MCLEOD: EXCUSE ME. I DIDN'T HEAR THAT. . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 66 I'M NOT -- MR. SCHRIMSHER: THAT'S WHAT MS. GENNELL SAID. MR. MCLEOD: SHE SAID WHAT? MR. SCHRIMSHER: I DON'T KNOW. SOMETHING ALONG THE LINES OF JUST AS LONG AS I-T GETS ADDED TO AN EXISTING PARK AND NOT STUCK OFF SOMEWHERE. I DON'T, RIGHT THIS MINUTE, KNOW WHERE THAT IS GOING TO BE. SO THAT'S THE EXAMPLE OF A KIND OF THING THAT IT'S NOBODY'S FAULT, BUT THAT ISSUE JUST CAME UP. AND WHERE IS IT GOING TO BE? AND IS WHAT I SUGGEST WHERE IT GOES ACCEPTABLE? AND IT'S THE KIND OF THING THAT WOULD HELP, AGAIN, TO HAVE A DISCUSSION WITH VICTOR DOVER ABOUT. MR. MCLEOD: MR. SCHRIMSHER, WHAT MY SUGGESTION IS TO YOU, AND WHAT I'M DIRECTING AS MY SUGGESTION TO THE COMMISSION, IS THAT IT WOULD BE WORKED OUT BETWEEN YOU AND MR. DOVER AS TO WHICH OF THE PARKS -- WITH THE CITY MANAGER AS TO WHICH PARK THAT WOULD GO INTO. IT DOES NOT NECESSARILY NEED TO COME BACK TO THIS COMMISSION AS TO WHICH ONE OF THE PARKS THE THREE OF YOU CAN AGREE TO DO. YOU CAN TAKE MICKEY WITH YOU. FOUR. THAT'S TWO AND TWO. OKAY. THAT WILL BE I MEAN, I DON'T ,. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 67 SEE THAT THAT NEEDS TO COME BACK HERE. ALL WE'RE SAYING IS THE GREEN SPACE NEEDS TO STAY IN THE PARKS, AND YOU FOLKS DECIDE IN THE NEXT TWO WEEKS WHERE THAT IS. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. COMMISSIONER GENNELL. MR. MCLEOD: I THINK YOU NEED TO FIND OUT FROM THE REST OF THE COMMISSION IF THEY AGREE TO THAT SO THAT SCHRIMSHER AND MICKEY CAN MAKE A DECISION. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. SO JUST SO WE'RE CLEAR ON THAT, I WANT TO GO BACK. THE PREVIOUS DEAL IS OVER; IS THAT CORRECT? MR. MCLEOD: THAT'S OVER. IT'S OVER. MAYOR PARTYKA: THAT'S CORRECT. ALL RIGHT. THIS ONE, SPECIFY AGAIN VERY CLEARLY FOR EVERYBODY, SO WE'RE -- MR. MCLEOD: FIRST OF ALL, WHAT IS NOT PART OF MAGNOLIA, THE .79, IS DEFINITELY STILL PART OF THAT DEAL. ALL I'M SAYING IS WE'RE NOW AT 4.84 VERSUS .84, SPLITTING IT, .242. OKAY. AND THAT THAT PORTION OF THE .42 GETS SPLIT UP INTO THE OTHER PARKS, AND THAT WILL BE WORKED UP BETWEEN MR. DOVER, CITY MANAGER, MR. SCHRIMSHER, AND MR. GRINDSTAFF OVER THE NEXT TWO WEEKS. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. WE GOT IT. ~. ~ . . 25 68 1 DOES EVERYBODY UNDERSTAND THAT CLEARLY? 2 MR. MARTINEZ: YOU FORGOT TO INCLUDE EDGE 3 DRIVE. 4 MR. MCLEOD: WELL, THE CITY MANAGER'S 5 LANGUAGE AND MR. GRINDSTAFF HAS TO BE WORKED OUT. 6 MR. MCLEMORE: I ONLY HAVE ONE QUESTION. IS 7 IT ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL THAT IT BE WORKED OUT IN 8 THE NEXT TWO WEEKS, AS LONG AS WE WORK IT OUT? 9 MR. GRINDSTAFF: AS OPPOSED TO TONIGHT? 10 MR. MCLEMORE: NO. NO. I'M TALKING ABOUT 11 WHERE THE OTHER -- 12 MR. MCLEOD: WHERE IT GOES? 13 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: NO. 14 MR. MCLEOD: NO. I'LL RETRACT WITHIN TWO 15 WEEKS AS LONG AS THE PARTIES CAN AGREE TO WORK 16 THAT OUT. 17 MR. MARTINEZ: THE PERCENTAGE. 18 MR. MCLEOD: THE PERCENTAGES. IN OTHER 19 WORDS, MICKEY, WHAT I'M SAYING -- 20 MR. GRINDSTAFF: THE PERCENTAGES WILL BE 21 NAILED DOWN. THE WHEREABOUTS OF THE CORRECTION 22 WOULD BE YET TO BE DETERMINED. 23 MR. MCLEMORE: RIGHT. WE'LL WORK THAT OUT. 24 MR. MCLEOD: RIGHT. AND THE FOUR OF YOU WORK THAT OUT, NOT IN THE NEXT TWO WEEKS. 1 ~. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 . 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 - -- - 23 24 25 . 69 MR. GRINDSTAFF: ALL RIGHT. WE WERE TALKING. I'M SORRY. I DIDN'T -- I DON'T THINK WE HEARD THE WHOLE THING. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. THE ISSUE REALLY COMES DOWN TO A COMPROMISE POSITION. THE COMPROMISE POSITION IS NOW 4.42 INSTEAD OF 4.84. MR. BLAKE: NO, SIR. NO. MAYOR PARTYKA: ISN'T THAT RIGHT? HOLD IT. HOLD IT. LET'S GO TO THE SOURCE AND MAKE SURE I COPIED EXACTLY. SO TELL ME AGAIN. MR. MCLEOD: OKAY. WE HAD AGREED MR. BLAKE: STICK WITH ACRES. MR. MCLEOD: I DON'T HAVE ACRES HERE, MIKE. I DON'T HAVE THAT FIGURED OUT. MR. BLAKE: THE NUMBER IS .0978. I THINK IT WILL GIVE US .098 ACRES. MR. MCLEOD: WHAT IS THAT BASED ON? IS THAT BASED ON .84 OR IS THAT BASED ON .42? MR. BLAKE: OKAY. WHAT THAT IS -- MR. SCHRIMSHER: DID YOU SAY .9? MR. BLAKE: .098 ACRES. THEY ARE SHORT .1956 ACRES IF THEY WERE TO FOLLOW THE 4 PERCENT GUIDELINE THAT WE SAID LAST MEETING. IF YOU TAKE THAT .1956 AND DIVIDE IT BY TWO, YOU GET .0978 ACRES, WHICH CAN BE CONVERTED INTO SQUARE FOOTAGE. . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 70 MAYOR PARTYKA: THAT'S WHERE I GOT MY NUMBERS. I MEAN, WE'RE STILL TALKING ABOUT THE SAME PERCENTAGES, BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE TALKING IN THE SAME PERCENTAGE. IT COMES OUT -- MR. BLAKE: PEOPLE DON'T -- IN ORDER TO GET IF YOU USE A PERCENTAGE NUMBER, YOU HAVE TO GO ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE 23.36 NUMBER AND THEN WORK OFF THAT. IF WE'RE DOING AN AGREEMENT, YOU OUGHT TO HAVE THE ACREAGE. MAYOR PARTYKA: RIGHT. BUT AGAIN, NOTHING HAS CHANGED. ALL WE DID -- WE'RE STILL TALKING ABOUT ALL THE SAME NUMBER. MR. BLAKE: YES. MAYOR PARTYKA: SAME NUMBERS, WHICH IS, AGAIN, JUST SO WE'RE CLEAR -- I'LL TRY TO BE AS CLEAR AS POSSIBLE -- IS 23.36 TIMES 4.84 WAS THE ORIGINAL POSITION, OKAY, FROM YOU. MR. GRINDSTAFF: PERCENT. MAYOR PARTYKA: PERCENT. MR. MCLEOD: PERCENT. MAYOR PARTYKA: THE COMMISSION INITIALLY HAD 23.36 TIMES .04, OR 4 PERCENT, MORE OR LESS. NOW, COMMISSIONER MCLEOD HAS COME UP WITH THE SUGGESTION OF A COMPROMISE, WHICH WOULD BE 23.36 TIMES 4.42 PERCENT, PLUS OR MINUS. THAT'S THE -,. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 71 COMPROMISE POSITION. AND I'VE GOT IT BROKEN DOWN TO SQUARE FOOTAGE. IT COMES DOWN TO, LIKE, 4,360 4,356 SQUARE FEET. THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. MR. MCLEOD: THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHERE WE'RE AT, THE 4, AND WHERE THE 84 WA-S. JUST TAKE HALF OF THAT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I UNDERSTAND. I UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. MAYOR PARTYKA: AND THEN TAKE WHATEVER TIME YOU NEED TO WRITE UP THE GOOD AGREEMENT, AND -- LET'S SEE. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE WOULD EXPECT THAT TO BE WITHIN TWO WEEKS. MR. BLAKE: THAT'S TWO WEEKS. MAYOR PARTYKA: WHERE THE PROPERTY GOES, BUT, OKAY. MR. MCLEOD: AND WHERE YOU PUT THE GREENWAYS UP BETWEEN THE FOUR. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. MR. SCHRIMSHER: GREAT. GREAT. OKAY. MAYOR PARTYKA: IT'S A DONE DEAL. MR. SCHRIMSHER: GOOD. MR. MARTINEZ: THIS IS NOT COMING BACK? MR. MCLEOD: WHOA. WHOA. WHOA. ,. ,- . . 72 1 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT? 2 MAYOR PARTYKA: LET'S NOT GO CRAZY HERE. 3 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I THINK NOW YOU'VE ZEROED 4 IN, MAYOR, ON WETLAND PARK. THAT'S BASED ON THE 5 PREMISE THAT MAGNOLIA PARK 6 MR. MCLEOD: IS STILL .79. 7 MR. GRINDSTAFF: AND IF IT GOES TO .64, WHICH 8 IS WHAT'S CURRENTLY DRAWN 9 MR. MCLEOD: THEN YOU'RE GOING TO SPREAD THAT 10 ALSO. 11 MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT WOULD BE SPREAD ALONG 12 WITH THAT OTHER HALF THING. 13 MAYOR PARTYKA: WE HAVE STATED THAT POSITION 14 EARLIER. 15 MR. SCHRIMSHER: THAT WAS IN MY MIND WHEN I 16 SAID THE WORD IIGREAT.II 17 MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE WERE PLANNING OUR EXIT. 18 ONLY KIDDING. AND I TEINK THAT WAS IT. 19 ONE OTHER THING THAT WE WOULD JUST LIKE TO 20 GET BETWEEN NOW AND THEN. 21 MAYOR PARTYKA: WELL, LET ME JUST -- AGAIN, 22 LET ME MAKE THE VOTE OF THIS COMMISSION TO AGREE. 23 OKAY. NOW WE'VE AGREED TO THIS. 24 MR. MCLEOD: THEY'VE AGREED NOW. LET'S SEE 25 IF WE CAN, RIGHT? .. . . 22 23 24 25 73 1 MAYOR PARTYKA: YEAH. NOW, IF WE AGREE. 2 NOW, DOES THE COMMISSION AGREE TO THIS POSITION BY 3 THE SCHRIMSHERS? I THINK WE HAVE TO DO THAT 4 TECHNICALLY; MAKE A MOTION TO APPROVE. ALL 5 RIGHT. 6 WOULD YOU CARE TO MAKE A MOTION? 7 MR. MCLEOD: I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE A MOTION 8 THAT WE APPROVE THE CHANGES TO THE DOCUMENT AS 9 HAVE BEEN OUTLINED HERE THIS EVENING AND THAT WE 10 BRING IT BACK WITH NO ADDITIONAL THINGS TO THE 11 DOCUMENT OTHER THAN THOSE CHANGES THAT WE HAVE ALL 12 AGREED TO FOR THE NEXT MEETING. 13 MR. MARTINEZ: I SECOND THAT MOTION. 14 MAYOR PARTYKA: ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION? CALL 15 THE VOTE. 16 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YES. 17 MAYOR PARTYKA: OH, COMMISSIONER GENNELL. 18 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: IF WE'RE ON A COMPLETE 19 VERBATIM RECORD AND THEY'RE COMMITTED TO SIGNING 20 WHAT WE'VE AGREED TO HERE TONIGHT, WHY DOES THE 21 PAPER HAVE TO COME BACK TO THIS COMMISSION? WHY CAN'T YOU JUST BE AUTHORIZED TO SIGN IT? MR. GRINDSTAFF: MAY I MAKE A SUGGESTION TO THAT? DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WELL, I JUST -- LET ME I . . . 74 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 FINISH MY THOUGHT HERE. WHY CAN'T THE MAYOR BE AUTHORIZED TO SIGN IT AND IT DOESN'T HAVE TO WAIT FOR THE TWO WEEKS AND WE CAN SETTLE THIS THING HERE? MR. BLAKE: DOESN'T IT? IT NEEDS A PUBLIC HEARING, DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: NOT FOR THE SIGNATURE, NO. WE NEED TO MOVE FORWARD WITH THE TOWN CENTER CODE, ALSO. IF THEY'RE GOING TO HOLD US UP ANOTHER TWO WEEKS ON THE TOWN CENTER CODE, THEY NEED TO SAY, YES, WE AGREE TO THIS SUBJECT TO OUR ATTORNEY'S REVIEW, AND WE WILL AGREE TO SIGN IT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: YOU NEED TO POST IT IN THE WORKS, I THINK. MR. MCLEMORE: WELL, I THINK WE'VE AGREED WE'RE GOING TO DO THIS AS A CONTRACT AND NOT UNDER THE STATE STATUTE. SO WE DON'T HAVE TO DO THE HEARINGS. WE'RE NOT DOING IT AS AN ORDINANCE. WE'RE DOING IT AS AN AGREEMENT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I THINK WE NEED TO FINALIZE THAT ORDINANCE AT THE SAME TIME, DON'T WE? MR. MCLEMORE: THE CODE? MR. GRINDSTAFF: THE CODE. MR. MCLEMORE: OH, YES. MAYOR PARTYKA: WE'RE DOING THAT NEXT, ~ . . 25 75 1 POTENTIALLY. 2 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: OH, NO. THEY'RE GOING 3 TO HOLD US UP TWO WEEKS THE WAY THEY'RE GOING 4 NOW. THAT'S WHAT I'M HEARING. WHEN WE ALL GET 5 DONE HERE, MICKEY MAKES HIS LITTLE SPEECH ABOUT 6 HOW THEY OPPOSE US DOING THE TOWN CENTER CODE FOR 7 ALL THE OBVIOUS REASONS. 8 MAYOR PARTYKA: BUT HE WON'T OPPOSE THAT IF 9 WE HAVE THE SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT. 10 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WE DON'T KNOW THAT. 11 THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO GET TO. 12 MR. GRINDSTAFF: I WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION 13 THAT YOU WERE HEADING WHERE COMMISSIONER MCLEOD 14 WAS TALKING ABOUT, WAS IN TWO WEEKS, YOU'RE GOING 15 THE PASS THE AGREEMENT AND THE CODE. 16 AND WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, I THINK THAT'S A 17 LOT CLEANER FOR EVERYONE, HAVING COME THIS FAR, 18 THAT THE CODE AND THE AGREEMENT BE PROPERLY 19 POSTED, PROPERLY ADVERTISED, PUT OUT FRONT, JUST 20 LIKE EVERYTHING OUGHT TO BE DONE. 21 AND THERE'S A COUPLE REASONS. ONE IS THAT 22 THERE IS NO BENEFIT OF PASSING THE CODE TONIGHT 23 VERSUS TWO WEEKS FROM NOW, ASSUMING EVERYTHING 24 WE'VE SAID HERE HAPPENS. THAT'S NUMBER ONE. YOUR COMP PLAN AMENDMENT STILL HASN'T BEEN . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 76 PASSED, HASN'T BEEN TRANSMITTED, HAS IT? MR. MCLEMORE: IT CERTAINLY HAS. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE AMENDMENT? OH, THE AMENDMENT GOT DELETED TONIGHT. MR. MCLEMORE: BUT IT WAS TRANSMITTED ON THE TENTH DAY. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WHEN WAS IT GOING TO GET ADOPTED? SO WE'VE GOT THAT ADOPTION PERIOD WITHIN WHICH TO GET THAT ORDINANCE BACK. I MEAN, TWO WEEKS IS NOT GOING TO HURT THE PASSAGE OF YOUR ORDINANCE. NOT TO MENTION, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT -- AND THIS IS NOT TO BE CUTE -- I MEAN, EARLIER TONIGHT WE TALKED ABOUT YOU WANT TO HEAR ZONING ORDINANCES WITHOUT THE ZONING OFFICER HERE. AND I WAS WONDERING HOW WAS THAT GOING TO IMPACT THIS THING HERE TONIGHT. I MEAN, YOU'RE EITHER GOING TO LIVE BY WHAT WE'VE SAID OR WE AREN'T. IT WON'T HURT ANYTHING. LET'S ADVERTISE IT. LET'S POST IT. LET'S GET IT OUT HERE WHERE THE PUBLIC CAN SEE IT. EVERYBODY SITS HERE, AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE SUBJECT TO ANY ACTIONS, WHETHER THEY BE FRIVOLOUS OR SUBSTANTIVE, AND WE DO THEM BOTH AT THE SAME TIME. WE'VE COME TOO FAR TO BE CARELESS WITH THE THING IN THE LAST HOUR. . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 77 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. AGAIN, THAT'S ONE COMMISSIONER UNDER DISCUSSION. ANY OTHER COMMISSIONERS? IF NOT, I THINK WE NEED TO CALL THE VOTE, PLEASE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MILLER. MR. MILLER: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. MR. MCLEOD: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. MR. MARTINEZ: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER BLAKE. MR. BLAKE: AYE. THE CLERK: DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: AYE. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. MOTION PASSES. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THAT WAS ON THE AGREEMENT IN TWO WEEKS. MAYOR PARTYKA: YES. JUST THE WAY COMMISSIONER MCLEOD INITIALLY STATED IT. OKAY. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS AT THIS POINT? MR. GRINDSTAFF: NOT ON THE AGREEMENT, NO, SIR. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FROM YOUR STANDPOINT, MR. MCLEMORE? ~ . . 78 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MCLEMORE: NO. MAYOR PARTYKA: MR. GARGANESE, ANY ISSUES THAT MR. GARGANESE: NO. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. GOOD. VERY GOOD. MR. MCLEOD: I WOULD JUST LIKE TO SAY THANK YOU, AGAIN, AT THIS POINT, FOR US ALL GETTING TO THIS POINT. OKAY. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WELL, WE WOULD PROPOSE, HOPEFULLY, THAT WHEN THE ORDINANCE AND THE AGREEMENT COMES IN TWO WEEKS THAT MAYBE WE BALLOONS -- DO SOMETHING. MR. SCHRIMSHER: BUMPER STICKERS AND T-SHIRTS. MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER GENNELL. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: MR. MAYOR, I WOULD LIKE A DATE CERTAIN WHEN WE WILL SEE THIS FINAL COPY. I THINK THAT'S A FAIR REQUEST SINCE WE HAVE NO OTHER ADDITIONS TO GO AND THEY HAVE A COURT REPORTER THAT CAN TRANSCRIBE IT IN A COUPLE DAYS. NO. NO. I DON'T WANT TO WAIT TWO WEEKS FOR THE FINAL COPY AND COME IN HERE AND FIND IT ON MY DESK. MR. GRINDSTAFF: THE COURT REPORTER DOESN'T TRANSCRIBE THE AGREEMENT, MA'AM. . . . 25 79 1 MAYOR PARTYKA: WHAT COMMISSIONER GENNELL IS 2 SAYING, WHICH IS NOT A BAD IDEA, AND IT GOES TO 3 ALL THE THINGS WE'VE SAID, INSTEAD OF WAITING TO 4 THE DAY OF THE COMMISSION MEETING TO READ IT AND 5 REVIEW IT AND ALL THAT, IF WE CAN GET IT -- CALL 6 IT A DAY BEFORE OR TWO WEEKS BEFORE 7 AUDIENCE PARTICIPANT: I DON'T KNOW IF IT 8 IMPACTS YOUR DISCUSSIONS, BUT THE NEXT COMMISSION 9 MEETING IS THREE WEEKS FROM TONIGHT, NOT TWO. 10 MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. 11 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THEN I WOULD REQUEST 12 THAT WE GET THE FINAL AGREEMENT IN OUR HANDS IN 13 TIME TO GO IN OUR AGENDA PACKET. 14 MR. MCLEOD: IN TWO WEEKS. 15 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THAT'S RIGHT. IF IT'S 16 HERE IN TWO WEEKS, THEN IN TIME FOR THE NEXT 17 AGENDA PACKET. 18 MAYOR PARTYKA: WHEN CAN YOU HAVE THIS DONE 19 IN TERMS OF WHEN THEY CALL 20 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: YEAH. GIVE US A DATE 21 CERTAIN. 22 MR. MCLEOD: LET'S JUST SAY NO LATER THAN TWO 23 WEEKS. BUT WE IF THEY GET IT IN A WEEK, FINE. 24 REALLY NEED A WEEK TO READ IT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WE HAVE NO DESIRE TO HOLD / . . . 23 24 25 80 1 THIS THING BACK, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. I MEAN, 2 ANTHONY AND I WILL WORK ON THAT. WE UNDERSTAND 3 THE SIGNIFICANCE OF IT. 4 THESE ISSUES -- UNTIL NOW, WE'VE HAD THESE 5 GAPS IN WHERE WE WERE GOING. I MEAN, THEY WERE 6 BLANKS, SO TO SPEAK. 7 NOW WE KNOW WHAT WE'RE DOING. AND I AGREE 8 WITH RON THAT THIS IS NOT THAT -- THEY'RE NOT THAT 9 TOUGH, BUT WE DO NEED TO TAKE THE TIME TO DO THEM 10 RIGHT. 11 WE WOULD ALSO LIKE TO GET AND I THINK 12 EVERYONE NEEDS TO GET -- AND WHAT WE'D LIKE TO DO 13 AT THE NIGHT THAT THE ORDINANCE IS PASSED -- THIS 14 ORDINANCE, THE TOWN CENTER DESIGN CODE HAS ON 15 EVERY PAGE A DATE. IF YOU LOOK DOWN -- I HAVE 16 ONE. I HAVE ONE HERE. IT HAS -- LOOK DOWN ON THE 17 RIGHT-HAND CORNER OF EVERY PAGE, IT HAS A DATE 18 THAT THAT PARTICULAR PAGE WAS LAST REVISED. 19 MR. BLAKE: THAT'S THE MCLEOD DATE. 20 MR. GRINDSTAFF: IT'S THE MCLEOD DATE? WELL, 21 WHATEVER IT IS, WE ALWAYS NEED TO BE CERTAIN THAT 22 THAT'S THE LAST I MEAN, THAT PAGE, THAT'S THE PAGE. WHAT WE DON'T WANT TO DO IS ADOPT AN ORDINANCE, STAPLE TO IT THE WRONG PAGES, BECAUSE ~. . . 81 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF CONFUSION, LIKE THAT TRADE -- NOT TRADE, BUT TRAIL STREET, WE'VE GOT TO CLEAN THAT UP. MAYOR PARTYKA: IF I MAY INTERRUPT. I THINK WE AGREE WITH ALL THIS. MR. GRINDSTAFF: I AGREE. I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYONE AGREES WITH THAT. MAYOR PARTYKA: WE AGREE WITH ALL THIS. I THINK IT'S TIME TO MOVE ON FROM THIS POSITION. YOU BASICALLY HAVE TWO WEEKS, IS WHAT THIS COMMISSION IS SAYING. COMMISSIONER GENNELL. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I'D JUST ASK FOR A DATE CERTAIN WHEN THEY WOULD DELIVER US THE FINISHED CONTRACT. AND THEY'VE, SO FAR, AVOIDED PINNING IT DOWN. I JUST WANT A DATE CERTAIN. I DON'T THINK THAT'S A HARD THING TO ASK FOR. MR. GRINDSTAFF; ASK YOUR ATTORNEY, AND THEN WE'LL SEE IF WE CAN AGREE WITH THAT DATE. MR. GARGANESE: WHAT'S THE DATE? MR. GRINDSTAFF: FINAL AGREEMENT. MR. MARTINEZ: MR. GARGANESE: DIFFICULT TO DO. THE DATE CERTAIN FOR THE TO BE IN OUR HANDS. IT'S NOT GOING TO BE THAT . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 82 DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: JUST GIVE US A DATE CERTAIN. MR. GRINDSTAFF: WHAT'S NEXT FRIDAY? NOT THIS COMING, BUT NEXT. AUDIENCE PARTICIPANT: THE 2ND OF JUNE. MR. MARTINEZ: MAKE IT THE 29TH. THAT'S SEVEN DAYS FROM TODAY. NEXT MONDAY. MR. GRINDSTAFF: HOW ABOUT JUNE 2ND? YOU DON'T HAVE A MEETING UNTIL JUNE THE 10TH. AUDIENCE PARTICIPANT: DATES. THEY'RE ALL HERE. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: IS THAT A WEEKDAY? AUDIENCE PARTICIPANT: YES. MAYOR PARTYKA: JUNE 2ND IS A FRIDAY. THAT'S 12TH. I KNOW THE TWO WEEKS. MR. GRINDSTAFF: OKAY. NEXT. MAYOR PARTYKA: COMMISSIONER MILLER, YOU HAD A LIGHT ON? MR. MILLER: NO. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. LET ME DO THIS AS A SUMMARY. ON BEHALF OF THIS COMMISSION AND ON BEHALF OF THE CITIZENS, THANK YOU FOR GETTING TO THIS POINT. IT'S BEEN A TOUGH BATTLE, BUT IT'S BEEN GOOD FOR BOTH OF US. AND HOPEFULLY, WE ALL GOT SOMETHING OUT OF THIS. THANK YOU AGAIN FOR . .. . 83 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BEING PATIENT WITH US AND US WITH YOU. SO I'M GLAD TO SEE WE HAVE SOMETHING HERE THAT WE CAN BUILD ON THE FUTURE. SO AGAIN, THANK YOU. MR. MARTINEZ: IS IT POSSIBLE TO HAVE -- ONCE WE GET THIS FINISHED COPY ON JUNE 2ND AND BEFORE WE CONVENE THE NEXT COMMISSION MEETING, THAT WE CAN HAVE AN AGREEMENT SIGNED BY YOU SO WE CAN WORK ON THE ORDINANCE IMMEDIATELY? IN OTHER WORDS MR. GARGANESE: I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND. SORRY. MAYOR PARTYKA: IN OTHER WORDS, TO HAVE AN AGREEMENT SIGNED BY THE TIME THE NEXT COMMISSION MEETING COMES. MR. GARGANESE: SIGNED BY WHOM? MAYOR PARTYKA: BY THE MAYOR. MR. GARGANESE: NOT UNTIL THE COMMISSION APPROVES IT. MAYOR PARTYKA: ALL RIGHT. MR. MCLEOD: READY TO -- MAYOR, BRING THE NEW PEN WITH LOTS OF INK. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: AND HOWEVER MANY COPIES WE NEED. MR. GRINDSTAFF: IT WILL BE DONE THERE IN TIME TO POST IT. THE WHOLE WORKS WILL BE READY TO ROLL. . . . 84 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MARTINEZ: MOTION TO ADJOURN. IT'S 12 O'CLOCK. MR. GRINDSTAFF: SECOND. MAYOR PARTYKA: WE HAVE TO DO A MOTION TO POSTPONE THE FOURTH READING OF ORDINANCE 707. I NEED A MOTION FOR THAT. MR. MARTINEZ: I MAKE A MOTION. MR. MCLEOD: SECOND. MAYOR PARTYKA: SO MOVED. SECONDED BY COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. DISCUSSION? CALL THE VOTE, PLEASE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MILLER. MR. MILLER: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. MR. MARTINEZ: AYE. THE CLERK: MR. MCLEOD: THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. AYE. COMMISSIONER BLAKE. MR. BLAKE: WHEN IS IT BEING POSTPONED TO? MAYOR PARTYKA: TO THE NEXT COMMISSION MEETING. MR. BLAKE: WE HAVE TO POSTPONE IT TO A DATE CERTAIN AND A SPECIFIC TIME, WHICH, I BELIEVE, IS JUNE 10TH AT 6:30 P.M.; IS THAT CORRECT? MR. MCLEOD: NO. JUNE 12TH. AND THAT'S PART . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 85 OF MY MOTION. MR. BLAKE: OKAY. AYE. MAYOR PARTYKA: THE MOTION PASSES. COMMISSIONER GENNELL, YOU HAD A QUESTION? MR. MCLEOD: MAYOR, EVERYBODY WAS NOT NECESSARILY POLLED. MAYOR PARTYKA: THE CLERK: ANDREA, DID YOU? ONE MORE. I DIDN'T CALL NO. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL. MAYOR PARTYKA: OH, OKAY. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: AYE. MAYOR PARTYKA: MOTION PASSES. HOLD ON. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: THIS DOESN'T HAVE TO DO WITH THEIR ISSUE. IT'S SOMETHING I HAD IMPORTANT BEFORE WE ADJOURN. MR. MCLEMORE: I NEED TO BRING YOU UP TO DATE ON ONE ITEM. MR. MCLEOD: MAYOR, I MAKE A MOTION WE EXTEND 15 MINUTES. MR. BLAKE: SECOND. AIR-CONDITIONER ON. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. CALL THE VOTE. THE CLERK: DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MILLER. IF WE CAN GET THE :,. . . 86 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MILLER: AYE. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: OH, MR. MAYOR, I REMEMBER. MAYOR PARTYKA: WAIT A MINUTE. IT'S A POLL. OKAY. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD.. MR. MCLEOD: AYE. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. MR. MARTINEZ: NAY. THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER BLAKE. MR. BLAKE: AYE. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. EXTEND FOR AT LEAST 15 MINUTES. OKAY. WHY DON'T YOU GO FIRST. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: I WANT TO MAKE A SPECIFIC REQUEST TO HAVE THE MINUTES OF REGULAR ITEM - - AGENDA I TEM II D 11 TYPED VERBA TIM. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. IS THAT OKAY WITH THE COMMISSION? MR. BLAKE: DID WE VOTE ON THE POSTPONEMENT? MR. GRINDSTAFF: NO, SIR, YOU DID NOT. MR. BLAKE: WE NEED TO VOTE ON THAT. MR. GRINDSTAFF: YOU VOTED TO EXTEND THE MEETING BY 15 MINUTES. MAYOR PARTYKA: YES, WE DID. ~. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . . 87 MR. MARTINEZ: WE VOTED BEFORE THAT. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: BEFORE THAT, WE VOTED. MR. GRINDSTAFF: OKAY. MAYOR PARTYKA: MR. MCLEMORE. (WHEREUPON, A DISCUSSION WAS HELD OFF THE RECORD.) MR. GARGANESE: WAS IT JUNE THE 12TH? DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: WE DID THAT. MR. GARGANESE: IN AN ABUNDANCE OF CAUTION, WOULD YOU DO IT ONE MORE TIME? MR. BLAKE: MAYOR, I'D LIKE TO MAKE A MOTION THAT WE POSTPONE THE FOURTH READING OF ORDINANCE 707, THE TOWN CENTER ORDINANCE, UNTIL JUNE 12, YEAR 2000, AT 6:30. MR. MARTINEZ: SECOND. MAYOR PARTYKA: OKAY. CALL THE VOTE. THE CLERK: DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL. DEPUTY MAYOR GENNELL: AYE. THE CLERK: MR. MILLER: THE CLERK: COMMISSIONER MILLER. AYE. COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ. MR. MARTINEZ: AYE. THE CLERK: MR. MCLEOD: THE CLERK: MR. BLAKE: COMMISSIONER MCLEOD. AYE. COMMISSIONER BLAKE. AYE. DO YOU HAVE TO VOTE SAME AS '". 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 '. . 88 YOU DID THE LAST TIME. AYE. MR. MARTINEZ: THE MINUTES SHALL REFLECT THAT IT WAS DONE TWICE. (WHEREUPON, THE MEETING WAS CONCLUDED AT 12:15 A.M.) '. ~~ . -. 89 1 2 3 4 CERTIFICATE OF OATH 5 6 7 STATE OF FLORIDA) 8 COUNTY OF ORANGE) 9 10 I, SANDRA A. MOSER, REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTER, CERTIFY THAT I WAS AUTHORIZED TO AND DID 11 STENOGRAPHICALLY REPORT THE FOREGOING PROCEEDING AND THAT THE TRANSCRIPT IS A TRUE RECORD. 12 I FURTHER CERTIFY THAT I AM NOT A RELATIVE, 13 EMPLOYEE, ATTORNEY OR COUNSEL OF ANY OF THE PARTIES, NOR AM I FINANCIALLY INTERESTED IN THE ACTION. 14 15 DATED THIS 5TH DAY OF JUNE, 2000. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 \. ~ . '--- ,i-.....\ \!n.... /". ~'. ,.....:... .-" '....~ r, \.,..-'.l"._!.~.. """':'_....1 '......;,'. f\ \~." c:... . ~. SANDRA A. MOSER, R.P.R. NOTARY PUBLIC- STATE OF FLORIDA ......~"...", SANDRA A. MOSER t(ib."'t:;\ MY COMMISSION, # CC 733210 ~.~.:;f EXPIRES: Apn112. 2002 '4't.;.~:::~~,'.. Bonded Thru Notary PubliC Underwri1ers