HomeMy WebLinkAbout_2003 05 08 City Commission Workshop Minutes
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CALL TO ORDER
The Workshop of Thursday, May 8, 2003 of the City Commission was called to order by
Mayor John F. Bush at 6:30 p.m. in the Commission Chambers ofthe Municipal Building
(City Hall, 1126 East State Road 434, Winter Springs, Florida 32708).
Mayor John F. Bush, present
Deputy Mayor Robert S. Miller, present
Commissioner Michael S. Blake, present
Commissioner Edward Martinez, Jr., present
Commissioner Sally McGinnis, present
Commissioner David W. McLeod, present
City Manager Ronald W. McLemore, absent
City Attorney Anthony A. Garganese, arrived at 6:36 p.m.
After a moment of silence, the Pledge of Allegiance was recited.
AGENDA
1. A. Office Of The City Manager
Requesting The City Commission Review The Recommendations Of The Tree
(Arbor) Ordinance Review Advisory Committee.
Mr. Michael Mingea, City Forester/Environmental Inspector, Community Development
Department introduced Ms. Marilyn Crotty (University of Central Florida, Florida
Institute of Government); Ms. Yvonne Froscher (Environmental Consultant); and
Members of the Tree (Arbor) Ordinance Review Advisory Committee.
Mr. Mingea distributed a document entitled "City of Winter Springs Ordinance No. 2002-
08 -- Tree Ordinance Advisory Board And Yvonne I Froscher Recommendations. "
Mr. Mingea referred to a page 2, Revision [Sec. 5-3 (s)] and stated that Members of the
Tree (Arbor) Ordinance Review Advisory Committee suggested having up to a twenty-
four inch (24") item for that to kick into effect. Since the time that this has occurred - I
have had much more reservation against expanding that limit onto the Specimen Tree, but
that was one ofthe recommendations."
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Mr. Mingea then stated, "We missed a couple of items in the original document. And
this is of real importance because the Laurel Oak and also the Sand Pine and the Cherry
Laurel have great failure tendencies, even though they may be of twenty (20) or twenty-
six (26) or whatever inch size, they may have a potential to literally just fall out
unannounced. So we wanted to eliminate those three (3) from - the Specimen Tree."
City Attorney Anthony A. Garganese arrived at 6:36 p.m.
Discussion.
Commissioner Edward Martinez, Jr. stated, "This document, does this relate to the
existing Ordinance in any matter, shape, or form? It says here Advisory Board
Recommendation 1 - Revision [Sec. 5-2(b)] - when I go to the Ordinance - [Sec. 5-2(b)]
- it does not say anything about intent, it speaks about Scope of Authority. We need to
know where we are at so we can follow the Ordinance and the changes in an orderly
fashion. "
[Sec. 5-2(b)] was further addressed next. Mr. Mingea stated, "Those underlining words,
the last few in the sentence, that would be the changes recommended. And then add the
word 'And to encourage proper removal of exotic, pest trees. ",
Discussion ensued on Cabbage Palms.
Brief discussion developed regarding [add Sec. 5-4(b)(9)). Attorney Garganese
suggested adding the wording, "All trees originally planted" to that section.
With discussion next on Advisory Board Recommendation 8, Deputy Mayor Robert S.
Miller suggested, "I think we need to spend some time on that, just as an observation
before it comes back for the First Reading."
Members of the City Commission then spoke about what defines "Safety hazards."
Commissioner Sally McGinnis spoke of there being a "Loophole" in the revision, and
requested that Ms. Proscher "Draft something that would cover that."
Ms. Yvonne Froscher, Environmental Consultant, Post Office Box 195305, Winter
Springs, Florida: stated, "I think maybe having some very specific things listed and the
value may be good - for that."
Attorney Garganese spoke of Ordinance 2002-08 and stated, "It is broadly written to
allow a little more discretion on that judgement call. But we can tighten it up a little bit
when we bring back the revisions to the Arbor Ordinance."
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Commissioner Michael S. Blake next spoke of [Sec. 5-5(c)(12)] which addressed the
establishment of the City Forester as a member of the Development Review Committee
and asked, "Which one?" Attorney Garganese responded, "Staff - we will insert the
words 'Staff Development Review Committee. ",
Tape I/Side B
In regards to the City Forester having the authority to educate City personnel responsible
for tree removal, planting, and establishment, Commissioner Blake added, "While I do
not disagree that perhaps the Arborist could spend some time educating the folks who are
involved in these types of decisions, I think it should be clear that we are not making any
budget decisions or any decisions to expand positions through the adoption of this
Ordinance. "
Discussion.
Deputy Mayor Miller stated, "No matter what we do here, in the end they just come in
and they look at a piece of property and they say I am going to put in 500 homes in there,
or fifty (50) homes, or twenty-five (25) homes, or I am going to put in an office building -
and then they just go ahead and do it." Furthermore, Deputy Mayor Miller added, "I
would like to see - when I look at some of the communities in the Miami area, they are
obviously a little bit more wealthy than we are and they may have a deeper pocket to
offset lawsuits, but there seems to be a lot of construction going on down there -
Developers come in and they take a look at the property and they say how can I put
quality on this property and keep the tree count."
Deputy Mayor Miller then said, "For me it is a real shame that we are not able to
convince people to try and do this to make our City a better place. But then when I look
at where they come from they really do not care about my City, they do not care about
any of the people sitting here. They are here to do a job, make their profit, then leave. So
the trees are really a pain - to them. They get rid of them and do what they have got to
do and get out. But some way or another they were able to get their attention down in
Miami. I have seen buildings built around trees down there. We have got a lot of land
going down towards the Greenway which eventually is going to be developed. And if
you walk in there it is just crawling with really beautiful trees, and I would like to think
that we could put in some enhancements." Furthermore, Deputy Mayor Miller added,
"So I think what we need to do is put some kind of enhancement, verbiage in there -
incentives - some kind of incentives that would be financially worth our while."
Mayor Bush then mentioned that the Attorney for the Villagio project had said something
similar. Mayor Bush then added, "Maybe the Commission needs to make this clearer to
the [City] Manager or whomever, that this is what the Commission wants to do."
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Commissioner Martinez. stated, "The educational part is very important. I believe in it."
Additionally, Commissioner Martinez spoke about the Public Works Department and
said, "On Greenbriar Lane they tore - the east side of Greenbriar Lane - for almost a half
a mile - and. I think they do need an education to know how to handle that type of
pruning. "
Attorney Garganese suggested to the City Commission, "We can try to build in some sort
of incentive section in the Ordinance. But with respect to the big majestic, Specimen
Trees we have already put the City Commission in a legal position to protect those trees
because you cannot remove a Specimen Tree without demonstrating to the Commission
extraordinary circumstances or hardship." Ms. Proscher stated, "I agree that there needs
to be an incentive."
Mayor Bush again referenced the Villagio project and said that they asked "The
Commission to reduce the requirement for parking if they could save more trees. I felt
the Commission somehow was agreeable to that but it still did not happen. Now it still
did not happen even though the Commission I think wanted it to happen and were willing
to bend on the requirements for parking because as he had mentioned, parking lots are
never full anyway. So what is it going to take to make it happen?" Attorney Garganese
stated, "We will work on something and bring it back to the Commission."
Discussion.
Regarding [Sec. 5-6(b)(1) and (2)], Commissioner Martinez inquired, "How do you
differentiate between those trees that cannot be removed without the permission of the
Commission, and the other trees?" Mr. Mingea answered, "Maybe the word 'Staff -
under 'Staff Development Review [Committee].'" Mayor Bush added, "Yes, I think it
needs to be consistent."
Discussion developed regarding the developmental review process in regards to
applications for tree removals. Mayor Bush asked, "Will this slow down the process?"
Mr. Mingea answered, "Absolutely." Mayor Bush asked further, "So how much will it
slow it down?" Mr. Mingea answered, "I believe in reality it should not greatly hamper
or slow down the process. It is just one of those we need' to at least look at it and see if
there is something to notice on the front." Attorney Garganese stated, "They should not
lose any time in the development process." Mayor Bush added, "We do not want to
make it any slower than it already is." Commissioner Martinez asked, "Are we going to
include 'Staff Review Development Committee' throughout, every time it comes up?"
Mayor Bush stated, "Yes."
In regards to [Sec. 5-6(b)(4)], Mayor Bush asked Mr. Mingea, "Who would your
representative be?" Mr. Mingea answered, "I could only hope that what this means is in
the absence of such as sick, disabled - I am going to guess we are just going to put in 'Or
his designee.' I do not specifically remember that as a discussion item but I do not
believe it was designed for me to sub the work out." Mayor Bush asked further, "So in
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your education program you will educate somebody who can make these decisions?" Mr.
Mingea said, "We have been - recently trying to look toward alternatives."
Commissioner Blake stated, "My real question is about this one time only every ten (10)
years. And I was not able to determine whether that really means one (1) tr~e, one (1)
time, ten (10) years and no possible way, no matter what circumstances are, to do another
tree until that (10) years is over..." Mr. Mingea stated, "...1 believe it is referring to
without a fee." Mr. Mingea clarified, "Maybe we need to insert the words 'Without a
fee. ",
Commissioner Blake stated, "As I read through the actual language it seems to me like
there are a lot of other things going on here." Furthermore, Commissioner Blake said,
"What I would recommend is I think I understand where you are trying to go with it but I
would want to circle that item as one to reword, rework, and come back."
[Sec. 5-8(a)] was discussed next. Commissioner Blake suggested that the City Clerk
should be the custodian for the Historical Tree designations, as opposed to the City
Forester. Mr. Mingea added, "I believe 'Clerk' would be the right one here."
Commissioner Martinez stated, "Here in the old Ordinance they have Historic Tree
designation as [Sec. 5-8(a)(4)] and over here in this - revision you have [Sec. 5-8(a)] as
Specimen and [Sec. 5-8(a)] again as Designation. One should be (a)(I)."
Commissioner Blake stated, "My concern would be the new language, 'Based on the
recommendation of the BOWS [Beautification of Winter Springs] Board.' What if the
BOWS [Beautification of Winter Springs] Board recommends against it, we cannot do
it?" Mr. Mingea responded, "I believe it refers to the BOWS [Beautification of Winter
Springs] Board presenting it to the City Commission." Commissioner Blake stated, "It
says that we can 'Designate a tree as a Historic Tree by Resolution based on the
recommendation of the Beautification Board of Winter Springs." Mr. Mingea suggested,
"You could change the word 'Based' and make it into..." Attorney Garganese said,
".. . We will change that to 'After.'"
Discussion.
The City Commission then addressed [Sec. 5-9(b)(5)]. Commissioner Blake asked
Attorney Garganese, "Do we have to have this language in here in order to grant some
sort of a waiver?" Attorney Garganese responded, "It is advisable because it sets a
standard by which you can consider granting the waiver."
Commissioner Blake added, "I do not think it sets a standard actually. I think it says that
we can. The standard would be set by putting down some criteria, how hardship is
defined." Attorney Garganese said, "We can add to the language."
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Commissioner Blake inquired how the City Commission would investigate an "Undue
hardship" claim. Attorney Garganese explained that the "Burden is going to have to be
on the person requesting the waiver, to present some evidence - to the Commission that
they have an economic hardship. It is a case by case basis." Commissioner Blake added,
"I think without having something spelled out it creates a potential problem, or certainly
makes it so that we will probably never collect a fine." With additional discussion,
Commissioner Blake asked how the Courts handle traffic fines.
Commissioner McGinnis said, "I am comfortable that the burden of proof would be on
the applicant and that this panel would make that judgement. I do not foresee many
people who would come before this Commission and plea financial hardship that it would
create such a burden on the City. I think it is a good thing to put in. As our Attorney
said, it is kind of a catch phrase - I think we should leave it as is."
Tape 2/Side A
Pertaining to [Sec. 5-13(a) and (b) and (c)), Commissioner Blake asked, "Will this
section supercede the [State Road] 434 New Development Corridor which has an Arbor
Section in it, or the Town Center Zoning District, which also has planting requirements?
I think we need some language in here that says this is other than those two (2) areas."
Attorney Garganese stated, "Yes, we need to clarify that more." Commissioner Blake
added, "I believe that is to the City limits isn't it, because the City limits have expanded
east since that Ordinance was written. We may want to check that just as a side note to
make sure it does not stop at the Beltway and it does continue on."
Commissioner David W. McLeod spoke of enforcement of the protection zones and
asked, "Would you also have - the enforcement done by the Police Department because
aren't they out and around more than you and the City Manager, spotting these things?"
Mr. Mingea responded, "This is kind of a grey area. We have discussed this previously.
I believe the City Attorney could probably better approach this issue but I know Code
Enforcement does some of this. And as far as any of the stop work type issues, that is
with the City Manager." Attorney Garganese stated, "This is the first I have seen of the
sign. I think it is a good job. But it probably does not need to state that it is enforced by
the City Forester and City Manager, it is just enforced by the City."
Discussion.
Mayor Bush stated, "I agree with removing 'Enforcement of City Forester or City
Manager.' I think that should be taken off - is there any advantage of actually putting on
here, a reference to the Code?" Attorney Garganese stated, "I would simply say
'Pursuant to - City Code.'" Furthermore, Attorney Garganese pointed out, "I think the
enforcement powers are in the Ordinance today. The City should be able to go out there
and enforce the Code." Mayor Bush clarified, "The Commissioner is asking should it be
Mr. Mingea or.. ." Attorney Garganese said, "...It is the City. It can be Mr. Mingea, it
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could be Captain [Glen] Tolleson [Police Department] - and as you all will find out
Monday night, maybe the City Commission."
Related to Advisory Board Recommendation 33 regarding the $500.00 fee to go before
the Board of Adjustment, Mayor Bush said, "To me that is excessive. You all set that fee
- but I think that is just too much. I think pushing anybody before the Board of
Adjustment is an economic hardship." Commissioner McGinnis stated, "I will agree with
you" Mayor Bush. I think it is excessive." Deputy Mayor Miller added, "I agree with
you."
Attorney Garganese stated, "If you give the Board of Adjustment this duty, they will
become a Quasi-Judicial Board for handling interpretation questions under the Arbor
Ordinance. If somebody did not like the decision of the Board of Adjustment then they
would appeal it to the Circuit Court because the Board of Adjustment would be the final
decision maker on questions of interpretation of the Arbor Ordinance. You need to ask
yourself whether you want to give that duty to the Board of Adjustment or retain that
duty yourselves." Commissioner McGinnis said, "I would like to keep it with the
Commission. "
Commissioner Blake said, "I think this particular section is weighty enough that we ought
to not decide that tonight. I would like to have a little bit of time to consider this. When
he crafts the Ordinance he can have Option A, Option B. We could have a little checklist
where we can choose which option we want at that time." Commissioner Martinez said,
"I would like to keep this with the Commission." Additionally, Commissioner McLeod
stated, "I am in agreement, this should stay with the Commission. If we are going to get
the City in a lawsuit, let the Commission do it, let them be responsible for the people."
Commissioner Blake added, "I agree."
Discussion.
Under Other Advisory Board Recommendations, specifically 4., Commissioner Blake
spoke of his concern with this recommendation and explained that "One of the keys of
the Town Center District is it is a higher intensive type development, multi-use, where
you do not have buffers and barriers but you have everything happening together. Now
in terms of the areas surrounding the perimeter of the Town Center District, then yes I
think a buffer around the perimeter is absolutely appropriate, but not necessarily within
the Town Center."
Referencing [Sec. 5-17(b)], Commissioner McLeod stated, "We found that before it was
important enough to spell out that the undesirable trees must be replaced with a desirable
tree - you said take that out of there. If you read the whole thing it does not really tell
you what you do with those, and I think it really should state that 'Undesirable trees need
not be replaced.'" Commissioner Blake stated, "I agree."
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Discussion.
Ms. Crotty departed the Workshop at 8:34 p.m.
Further discussion developed about [Sec. 5-6(a)(I)] regarding the inclusion of a tree
inventory, which consists of a "Scaled drawing" or a "Sketch." Regarding this topic,
Commissioner Blake asked, "What happens if the parcel sizes of a subdivision are going
to be a half (~) acre?" Ms. Froscher stated, "If it is a half (~) acre then they need to
provide a scaled drawing." Commissioner Blake asked, "Where do you see that?" Ms.
Froscher said, "That would be assumed to be a site to be developed, and they would need
to provide a scale drawing - one inch (1 ") equals fifty feet (50') or less."
Commissioner Blake then stated, "So explain to me what the difference is, if it is less
than one quarter (1;4) acre or more than one quarter (1;4) acre." Mr. Proscher said, "If it is
less than one quarter (1;4) acre they only need to provide a sketch. That means the
Surveyor does not need to precisely show the location of each tree. It means that it can
just be a qualitative rendering rather than a specific rendering."
Commissioner Blake clarified, "So the difference is if it is greater than one quarter (lf4)
acre it is a scaled drawing; if it is less than one quarter (1;4) acre it is a sketch. So if my
house - I have more than one quarter (1;4) acre, I am being held to a higher standard - I
have to go out and get a scaled architectural landscape drawing that shows how I want to
take down my..." Mr. Froscher said, ".. .But we also put language in this area before
where if you were only developing a small portion of that one half (Y2) acre or improving
a portion of it, you would only need to show that portion for which..." Commissioner
Blake asked, "... What about an existing house, like my house has already been built."
Ms. Fro scher said, "It would depend on the extent of your improvements."
Commissioner Blake stated, "No improvements. I just need to take down a tree." Ms.
Proscher responded, "Then you would probably be able to provide a sketch for that."
Commissioner Blake asked, "Even though I have more than one quarter (1;4) acre?" Ms.
Proscher further said, "Because you would be working in a very limited area."
Commissioner Blake said, "Because where I am going to cut this tree down, and it is not
in anybody's way, the tree covers less than one quarter (Y4) acre so a sketch would work
for that? Is that basically what you are saying?" Ms. Froscher stated, "Yes."
Next, Commissioner Blake said, '''I do not think it is clear Anthony [Garganese]. I think
that is an area that we need to make sure we can understand. I am not sure if that is what
it says or that is what it means." Commissioner McLeod agreed with Commissioner
Blake and stated, "You will be required to go get an Architect to stamp and seal this - so I
think if you are going to define something, you better make it very clear about what you
intend to do." Mayor Bush stated, "I agree also."
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Ms. Froscher clarified that [Sec. 5-9(a)] "Was supposed to be underlined, or at least part
of it." Commissioner Blake added, "This creates a conflict with some other sections. For
instance, if you remove an invasive tree or an exotic tree - previously we have struck
language that says you shall replace a tree. III here it is not..." Ms. Froscher said,
"...Okay so there needs to be - 'Except undesirable trees.'"
[Sec. 5-9(b)(6)(A)] was discussed next. Mayor Bush stated, "On the - Replacement
Credit Table you said greater than - shouldn't it be twenty-four (24)? Ms. Froscher
stated, "Right."
Commissioner Blake said, "Along that same line, shouldn't we have an eight inch (8")
spread for four (4) replacement tree credits? Or should we create a twenty (20) to up to
twenty-four (24) range with five (5) replacement credits?" Ms. Froscher responded,
"Sure we can do that. We can make one (1) more category." Commissioner Blake said,
"If we used to consider half of those trees as Specimen Trees, I think it is only right that
we do not designate a twenty-three inch (23") tree the same as a sixteen inch (16") tree.
Same language - just one more cell."
Ms. Froscher pointed out to the City Commission that [Sec. 5-9(b)(8)] and [Sec. 5-
9(b )(9)] are duplicates of each other.
Commissioner Blake spoke of YVONNE I. FROSCHER RECOMMENDATIONS
specifically [Sec. 5-17(b)] and stated, "Frankly 2) 'Planting four (4) Preferred Plants
Native to Central Florida' - it does not discuss size or any other requirements. They
could be four (4) Saplings." Mr. Mingea said, "That may need some more tweaking
there." Commissioner Blake added, "The size of the four (4) trees would have to equal
one hundred and fifty percent of the tree that was removed. You want it to be somewhat
comparable to choice 1), which is to plant a comparable size tree. Well if someone takes
down a sixteen incher (16"), I would rather plant four (4) small ones personally." Mr.
Mingea said, "I agree."
Tape 2/Side B
Deputy Mayor Miller stated, "Give some thought to just making it the first one [1)], and
then maybe they have to go to some Arbor Committee or the City Commission in the
event we might consider 2) or 3). What I am thinking is you have got a mature band of
trees out here to the east going towards the Greenway." Deputy Mayor Miller further
said, "My suggestion would be to consider putting in just one first and then if everybody
has no objection, then they would come to - the City Commission."
Commissioner Martinez spoke of a case recently heard by the City's Code Enforcement
Board in which the Defendant was fined $2,500.00. Attorney Garganese said to
Commissioner Martinez, "We can talk about that later. Let me get the facts."
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Mayor Bush commented on [Sec. 5-17(b)] and said, "That one needs to be worked on
and I think outside of Commissioner Martinez, that the Commission is basically saying
put more teeth in it."
Related to [Sec. 5-18(b)(2)], Attorney Garganese stated, "On this section - it is
something that I am going to rework just a little bit and present to the Commission."
Mayor Bush asked, "Are you following the recommendation though that the penalties be
large enough to be a deterrent?" Attorney Garganese stated, "They are currently large
enough to be a deterrent. For each tree that is removed without a permit, in violation of
this Ordinance, it is subject to a maximum penalty of $5,000.00 dollars per tree currently
under the Arbor Ordinance - maximum allowed by law for an irreversible Code
Enforcement Violation."
Attorney Garganese further stated, "One issue that we are going to address is probably
having more specific Code Enforcement Violation amounts for the times when the City
issues Citations that go directly to County Court. Because right now, the way the
Ordinance is drafted you have to apply six (6) factors to determine the amount of the fine.
You look at the gravity of the situation or the Violation. For example, whether the person
has taken remedial steps to correct the Violation before you actually impose the dollar
amount. That is the Code Enforcement procedure. With respect to Citations, they go
directly to Court." Attorney Garganese added, "But I am going to come back with
something on that point."
Mr. Byron Giltz, 1001 Troon Trace, Winter Springs, Florida: as a Member of the Tree
(Arbor) Ordinance Review Advisory Committee, Mr. Giltz addressed the City
Commission regarding the need to have residents educated on the Arbor Ordinance.
Ms. Froscher suggested adding a "One liner in big letters on everybody's water bills. Do
you want to take down a tree? Be sure to check out our new Ordinance."
Ms. Darcy Meagher, 710 East State Road 434, Winter Springs, Florida: as another
Member of the Tree (Arbor) Ordinance Review Advisory Committee, Ms. Meagher
spoke of the City of Altamonte Springs' process of verifying licensed contractors.
In conclusion, Commissioner McLeod said, "I would like to thank the Advisory Board
this evening for what has come forward. I would like to thank our Consultant - and our
Attorney. And Mike [Mingea], I would like to thank you for a very good presentation
this evening." Commissioner Martinez stated, "I, as Commissioner McLeod, would like
to thank the Committee. They did a great job and it is seldom that people really put as
much effort into something like this." Commissioner Blake agreed with Commissioner
Martinez.
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ADJOURNMENT
The Workshop was adjourned at 9:03 p.m.
RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED:
ROLLY PIE~STORFF,
ASStSTANT;TO,THE CITY CLERK; AND
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