HomeMy WebLinkAbout_1998 01 26 City Commission Regular Minutes
REGULAR MEETING
CITY COMMISSION
JANUARY 26, 1998
The Regular Meeting of the City Commission was called to order by Mayor Paul P. Partyka at
6:30p.m.
ROLL CALL:
Mayor Paul P. Partyka, present
Deputy Mayor Cindy Gennell, present
City Manager Ronald W. McLemore, present
Attorney Robert Guthrie, present
COMMISSIONERS:
Robert S. Miller, present
Michael S. Blake, present
Ed Martinez, present
David McLeod, present
Mayor Partyka announced agenda changes: Regular Agenda Item A is tabled until February 9, 1998
and Regular Agenda Items B-1 and B-2 will be continued until the February 9,1998 meeting.
Commissioner Blake asked what is the problem with Items B-1 and B-2.
Manager McLemore said essentially there is a problem relative to the last minute maneuvering with
the closing on the property between the land owner and developer.
Commissioner Blake said this is the fourth or fifth time that there has been and" 11 th hour" table on
this issue and ifit can't be "nailed down" then let's move on.
Manager McLemore said as is known real estate closing, particularly on commercial property,
involves substantial funds, can become quite "testy" and we just have to wait that out and see how
it goes.
Commissioner Blake asked when did the City get the request to table this item. Manager McLemore
said it was uncertain Friday and confirmed this morning.
Motion was made by Commissioner Blake to table Regular Agenda Item B-1 until the
February 9, 1998 meeting. Seconded by Commissioner Martinez. Discussion. Vote:
Commissioner Miller: aye; Commissioner Blake: aye; Commissioner Martinez: aye;
Commissioner Gennell: aye; Commissioner McLeod: aye. Motion passes.
Motion was made by Commissioner Blake to table Regular Agenda Item B-2 until the
February 9, 1998 meeting. Seconded by Commissioner McLeod. Discussion. Vote:
Commissioner Blake: aye; Commissioner Martinez: aye; Commissioner Gennell: aye;
Commissioner McLeod: aye; Commissioner Miller: aye. Motion passes.
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Approval of Minutes ofJanuary 12. 1998:
Motion was made by Commissioner Martinez to approve the minutes of January 12, 1998.
Seconded by Commissioner McLeod. Discussion. Commissioner Blake stated that he did not
receive the minutes. Vote: Commissioner Martinez: aye; Commissioner Gennell: aye;
Commissioner McLeod: aye; Commissioner Miller: aye; Commissioner Blake: nay. Motion
passes.
II. PUBLIC INPUT
Mayor Partyka reminded the audience that they are allowed three to five minutes for all public input
issues and there is a form to be filled out and given to the Clerk. Mayor Partyka also stated that on
issues C-1, C-2, C-3 and C-4, since it involves the same issue, that it is proper procedure to talk
about any point under the public input; so that the same person doesn't have to come up to speak
three or four different times.
Commissioner Martinez said the would like to take this opportunity to thank Mr. Harold Scott for
bringing to the Commission's attention (during the last meeting) the fact that there were monies
available for the Police Department under a Federal Grand and that option was picked up and said
that the City Manager has forwarded an application on for the grant.
Ken Rahuba, 206 Wade Street, spoke regarding the speeding on Wade Street and said that
experimental "rumble strips" were put in and said they are not working at all. Mr. Rahuba said that
maybe they can be changed so that they do work but the consensus of the neighbors there is that there
is a lot of noise and that is because there is speeding going over the "rumble strips". Mr. Rahuba said
the neighbors think that because the "rumble strips" are not working that a three way stop sign is still
needed at Frank Street.
Mayor Partyka asked Mr. Rahuba if he had any recommendations. Mr. Rahuba stated that if the
"rumble strips" were bumpier it would make it a more uneven ride, as they are even and if they were
bumpy it might make more of an impact. Mr. Rahuba said maybe a speed bump or two or a culvert
where drivers would have to slow up.
Manager McLemore said we don't want to "give up" yet, there are a couple of other things we want
to do to see how it's going to work before we give up on it because it might be applicable to other
streets. As was said in the beginning, we're just going to have to experiment with it some and see
how it works and even if we slow people down, one of the byproducts might be noise. Manager
McLemore said he would like to try working with it a little longer. Discussion.
Commissioner Gennell suggested erecting a sign at the comer saying "no right turn between "x" hour
and "x" hour".
Manager McLemore stated that there is only three connectors between the two roads and we don't
want to "push" the excess traffic onto Edgemon or Moss, we need a way to slow people down.
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Discussion.
Commissioner Blake stated that the "rumble strip" solution doesn't sit well with him, and said he
thinks we need to find another way, not only on Wade Street but throughout the rest of the City.
Because "rumble strips" (or speed bumps or which ever method is taken) penalizes 100% of the
people 100% of the time and it mostly penalizes the people who live there. Commissioner Blake said
he thinks we need to find a different solution and said he doesn't think "rumble strips" are it.
Police Chief Kerr stated that traffic studies have been done and it didn't demonstrate an inordinate
number of vehicles on a 24 hour basis, but it does show a lot of vehicles during the times that Mr.
Ruhuba says they are traveling through there. We have worked radar quite often, but those hours
of the day are our peak hours, during rush hour traffic, investigating accidents and other calls for
service. Regarding the signs mentioned by Commissioner Gennell, Chief Kerr stated that he has
experience those, the only problem is that the same people that are violating the "No Thru" truck
signs and the speed limit sings, also make illegal, one more violation. One of the big problems is how
do you discriminate, when who lives on that street that should be making a turn there.
Mayor Partyka said the City Manager and the Police Chief will look into this.
Manager McLemore said he should have information by the last meeting in February (2-23-98).
Valerie EI-Jamil, 1230 MacTavandash Drive, Oviedo, asked what rules of order does the City follow
in regards to the conduct of its meetings, i.e. committee meetings and asked if the City follows
Robert's Rules of Order and asked ifit applies to committee meetings.
Manager McLemore said it does not apply to committee meetings.
Mayor Partyka said we try to follow Robert's Rules of Order as best as we can, some people are
better than others at that and when you start getting into smaller committees it's not quite as clear
as some of the Commission meetings. Mayor Partyka said we try to use common courtesy most of
the time.
Mayor Partyka said he would like to commend on behalf of the Commission and himself the the
outstanding job that the Staff had in terms of the two dedications held on Sunday for Torcaso Park
and the Police Station.
Commissioner Martinez said in regards to what Ms. EI-Jamil mentioned, at the 01-12-98 Commission
Meeting, the Commission discussed Robert's Rules of Order and in the Mayor's memo it was
mentioned that debate time was to be limited, by the Commissioners, to five minutes and not more
than twice on each issue. Commissioner Martinez said if the Commission is going to be liberal as to
Robert's Rules of Order are concerned, we have to consider the fact that the Commission has to listen
to presentations from developers, attorneys, etc., and information from citizens and the Commission
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has their own concerns that we have to discuss and we cannot be limited. Commissioner Martinez
said in Section 37 of Robert's Rules of Order (referring to debates) reads "".debate upon a question
is not closed by the Chairman rising to put the question, as, until both the affirmative and negative
are put, a member can claim the floor, and reopen debate." Commissioner Martinez said Section 18
has to do with suspension of the rules, in certain sections of Robert's Rules of Order. Commissioner
Martinez said he doesn't think the Commission can be limited to any period of time on any discussion
on any issue and said if a motion is in place he would like to know so he can put the motion on the
floor, if not needed he will do without it.
Mayor Partyka said the guidelines that he gave to the Commission at the last meeting had nothing to
do with debate issue, it talked about after the debate is over, after all issues are resolved in terms of
asking pros and cons, once all that is done, then it's a question of a speech and that was the reference
of Robert's Rules of Order, not debate. Therefore, there is no motion necessary on this because we
are following Robert's Rules of Order. Mayor Partyka thanked Commissioner Martinez for his
comments.
Discussion ensued.
Motion was made by Commissioner Martinez to suspend the ruBes which interfere with sudden
limitations to debate time by members of this Commission. Seconded by Commissioner
Gennell. Discussion. Commissioner McLeod said that when he first read the Mayor's memo
he understood it in the same sense as Commissioner Martinez, but after further reading the
Mayor's memo, it was very clear to him that the Mayor was not indicating that the
Commission does not have debate on an issue among the Commission or with Staff or any legal
counsel. It is basically saying that once all input has come in, then (according to Robert's
Rules) each Commissioner, if they want to make a presentation, beyond debate, but under
their seat, they have five minutes to do that and then each Commissioner has an opportunity
to do that, then after it has gone through the Commission; then a Commissioner has the
opportunity to speak again for five minutes, but then that is the end of the discussion. Vote:
Commissioner Gennell: aye; Commissioner McLeod: nay; Commissioner Miller: nay;
Commissioner Blake: nay; Commissioner Martinez: aye. Motion fails.
IH. CONSENT AGENDA
Parks and Recreation Department
A. Requests the Commission accept the low bid of $11,700.00 from the Nidy Company of Sanford,
Florida for construction of basketball courts lighting at Torcaso Park and authorize the City Manager
to enter into contract for said services. PURPOSE: to request the Commission authorize the City
Manager to enter into contract for said services:
Commissioner Blake stated that the new proposal for the lighting at Torcaso Park is somewhat lower
cost than the old one and asked if there is anything being given up.
Manager McLemore said what is being given up basically is a little higher design; dealing with
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concrete poles. We were having some problems with the soil conditions there and those poles, we
needed to go with something lighter and we didn't have to go underground as far. The new poles
will be metal.
Commissioner Blake asked if there was a change in specifications for the bid. Manager McLemore
said yes and we did rebid. Commissioner Blake asked what was the life expectancy of the concrete
poles compared to the metal poles. Manager McLemore said he didn't know. Commissioner Blake
asked what was the cost difference between the original poles and the metal poles. Manager
McLemore said there was a substantial difference and will try to get an answer to that before the end
of the meeting if the Commission wants to put this item on hold.
Commissioner Gennell stated that she had comments by people who attended the dedication of the
park (on Sunday) regarding the layout of the park and stated that she didn't think the Commission
has sat down and addressed the park and said she would like to see it on an agenda or have a
workshop to look at that before a lot more is done so the Commission can review it.
Manager McLemore said all seven of the designs were brought to the Commission at a meeting and
was discussed and stated that he is not questioning that they can not be improved and that is what the
next level of review is suppose to do. The architect that the Commission authorized to employ (last
week) is going to review all of that and that will be a good time to look at it.
Motion was made by Commissioner Blake to table the Consent Agenda until later in the
meeting (before the Commission Reports) pending more information. Motion fails for lack of
a second.
Commissioner Miller asked about who will control the lighting.
Manager McLemore said it can be done in numerous ways, and stated that it has not been decided
as of yet.
Motion was made by Commissioner Gennell to table this item until later in the meeting.
Seconded by Commissioner Miller. Discussion. Vote: Commissioner McLeod: aye;
Commissioner Miller: aye; Commissioner Blake: aye; Commissioner Martinez: aye;
Commissioner Gennell: aye. Motion passes.
IV. JNFORMA TIONAL AGENDA
Community Development Department! Administration Division
A. Advises the Commission that Staff will review the City's regulations relating to Stormwater
Management. PURPOSE: to inform the Commission that Staffwill be reviewing the relevant City
Codes pertaining to wetlands, floodprone and floodplain areas and the problem of flooding and will
prepare a report with recommendations at the next Commission meeting:
Commissioner McLeod asked who presently cleans the creeks within the City and how often are the
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creeks checked for blockage and actually go out and clean. Does the City clean all the creeks each
year or portions thereof
Kip Lockcuff, Public WorkslUtility Director, stated that it is done on an as needed basis, but all the
creeks are checked once a year.
Commissioner McLeod suggested to the City Manager that we have a program that all the creeks are
checked every year and that any blockage in the creek is removed before any storms approach.
Commissioner McLeod said he thinks that is one of the problems that we will face in the future
because more run-off heading towards the creeks because of the more asphalt in the City, therefore
more run-off.
Mr. Lockcuff stated it is tremendously labor intensive, we have talked about getting a contractor to
do it who is better equipped/skilled to do it, it is something we haven't done very much of and have
to develop a program.
Commissioner McLeod again suggested that the City Manager look into that with Mr. Lockcuff and
bring back with more information regarding a program or if it would not be feasible.
Manager McLemore said he will try to get the Commission information on that shortly.
Commissioner Blake asked for a time estimate for the information.
Charles Carrington, Community Development Director, stated that in the packet it states that an
evaluation and recommendation to the Commission will be within 30 days. Mr. Carrington said
FEMA has prorogated legislation that has been adopted by all the States dealing with flood ways and
flood planes. Mr. Carrington said with looking at the City's language, the City is in compliance as
a matter offact, the City's flood plane legislation is a little more stringent than the norm; the City is
18 inches above the BFE (base flood elevation) than the norm. City's can adopt more stringent
legislation and stated that is what will be studied and see if we need to adopt more stringent
legislation as to flood ways, channel or flood plane.
Manager McLemore stated that this information will be to the Commission at the second meeting in
February.
Commissioner Miller said he would like addressed in the response, the flow thru pipes under the
existing roads. Commissioner Miller stated that he met a week ago and as it turns out the pipes
below the easement on Alton Road extension (going to Winding Hollow) were blocked.
Commissioner Miller said while the City meets FEMA's requirements, he thinks it might be good to
look at putting some sort of barrier in front of those, so if there are trees and debris down, it would
prevent that from backing up against the flow-thru pipes and then over running that roadway.
Discussion.
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Motion was made by Commissioner Gennell to accept the Informational Agenda. Seconded
by Commissioner Blake. Discussion. Vote: Commissioner Miller: aye; Commissioner Blake:
aye; Commissioner Martinez: aye; Commissioner Gennell: aye; Commissioner McLeod: aye.
Motion passes.
V. REGULAR AGENDA
Finance Department
A. Requesting Commission acceptance of the Audited Financial Statement for Fiscal Year ended
September 30, 1997. THIS ITEM TABLED UNTIL THE FEBRUARY 9, 1998 MEETING.
Community Development Department/Planning Division
B-1. Requests the Commission hold a Public Hearing and approve the Second Reading for adoption
of Ordinance No. 654, to annex a 9.58 acre parcel located on the south side of State Road 434
approximately 2,500 feet east of U.S. 17/92. PURPOSE: to request the Commission hold a Public
Hearing and approve the Second Reading and adoption of Ordinance NO. 654 to annex a 9.58 acre
parcel. THIS ITEM TABLED UNTIL THE FEBRUARY 9, 1998 MEETING
Community Development Department/Planning Division
B-2. Requests the Commission hold a First Public Hearing on a Development Agreement for the
Lake Irene Investors' property. PURPOSE: to request the Commission to hold a First Public
Hearing on a proposed Development Agreement, pertaining to a 9.58 acre parcel located on the south
side of State Road 434 approximately 2,500 feet east of U.S. 17/92. THIS ITEM TABLED UNTIL
THE FEBRUARY 9, 1998 MEETING
Community Development Department/Planning Division
C-1. Requests the Commission hold a Public Hearing to approve the Second Reading and adoption
of Ordinance No. 694, to annex a 296.96 acre parcel located on the east side of State Road 417 (aka
"The GreeneWay) and on the north side of State Road 434. PURPOSE: to request the Commission
hold a Public Hearing to approve the Second Reading and adoption of Ordinance No. 694 to annex
the 296.96 acre Battle Ridge Property:
Attorney Guthrie stated that late last week an issue was raised about the notice on one of these
ordinances, specifically C-3, the initial zoning. Attorney Guthrie said after looking at the law and
conferring with the applicants Attorney, what appears to be the case, there was an' erroneous citation
in the notice on the initial zoning when it was first placed in the newspaper. Apparently the ad was
called in to the newspaper and the minimum lot size was picked up on but the R-IA zoning
designation was not picked up on. A corrected ad was placed on Saturday but it doesn't meet the
time frame of State Law; the issue for the Commission is whether the Commission acts on all four
items or the three that are proper - the annexation, the Compo Plan designation and conduct the public
hearing on the development agreement. Remembering the applicant has made all four of the items
interlocking contingencies, since it is voluntary annexation.
Attorney Guthrie said the issue is whether the Commission acts on all four or act on three, pass the
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three or consider the three contingent upon a re-advertisement and the adoption of the initial zoning
on February 9, 1998. Discussion.
Attorney Guthrie recommended that C-3 is re-advertised and the Commission consider the item on
February 9, 1998.
Motion was made by Commissioner McLeod to table Regular Agenda Item C-3 and re-
advertise C-3 for the February 9, 1998. Seconded by Commissioner Miller. Discussion.
Commissioner Martinez asked how can the developers agreement be approved if item C-J is
tabled. Attorney Guthrie said the approval of the agreement will be contingent upon the
approval of C-3 at a subsequent meeting. Vote: Commissioner Blake: aye; Commissioner
Martinez: aye; Commissioner Gennell: aye; Commissioner McLeod: aye; Commissioner
Miller: aye. Motion passes.
Attorney Guthrie read Ord. 694 by title only on Second Reading.
Mayor Partyka announced the Staff will give their presentation, the developer will give their
presentation and then open the floor to the Commission of any comments; then the public will speak.
Commissioner Blake said the applicant had informed the Commission (at the last meeting) that it is
imperative to them that this is all or nothing, in other words all four items need to be approved or they
don't want any to be approved and asked if the Commission is able to act on the other three times
placing a contingency upon them that the fourth item is acted upon at this meeting.
Attorney Guthrie said if it is the pleasure of the Commission to adopt Ord. 694, to annex this
property, he recommends that the Commission annex the property contingent upon action acceptable
to the property owner on Ord. 696, so the effective date will be in conjunction with the zoning
ordinance, Ord. 696. Discussion.
Mayor Partyka said if the Commission passes Cl, C2 and C-4 and the Commission doesn't pass the
zoning the way the developer wants it, does that meet everything else is null and void. Attorney
Guthrie said that is correct, that is what the developer has asked for and what is put on their
application.
Mr. Carrington gave his presentation. Mr. Carrington stated that the purpose of this item is to
request that the Commission approve the second reading and adoption ofOrd. 694 to annex a 292.96
acre parcel known as the Battle Ridge Property and this comes to the Commission with a
recommendation from the Staff for approval.
Mr. Fred Leonhardt, attorney for the applicant, stated present with him this evening is the head of
operations for Battle Ridge, Jim Allen is present; Dale Crosby, engineer for the project; Turget
Durvish, the applicants traffic consultant and Dr. Michael Dennis, the projects environmental
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consultant.
Mr. Leonhardt gave the Commission the most recent version text of the agreement, because attached
is Exhibit B, which shows the lot cap is 110 lots.
Commissioner Blake asked if the agreement the Commission just received is identical to the one the
Commission received with their agenda packet. Manager McLemore said with one or two minor
changes that were put in during the week, there were no substantive changes in the agreement that
he is aware of
Attorney Guthrie also mentioned that the agreement the Commission was just handed has the exhibits
where the one that was in the agenda packet did not have the exhibits.
Attorney Guthrie noted the changes in the agreement. Page 2, the third "whereas" from the bottom,
in the second line in the middle the word "substantially" has been added and Exhibit B has been added
to the document. Page 5, paragraph 6-b, words have been deleted, those were words that related to
how we charge for our reservation fees - there was some language that did not accurately reflect that
and that language has now been deleted and this clarifies that we will handle these reservation fees
as we would any other developer, in effect encourage them to get their approvals and get their
construction done so that some of these charges run out and stop. Attorney Guthrie said those were
the minor changes, other than the more global changes that will be gone over that will be talked
about.
Mayor Partyka noted a misprint on page 8 - it states 6 thousand in words but 8,000 in numerals. Mr.
Leonhardt noted the change from 6 (in words) to 8 in words.
Mr. Leonhardt said the other change in addition to 110 lot ceiling cap is the subdivision layout has
not been accomplished in a way so that there are no development occurring within the 100 year flood
plane. There is land that is not wetlands, that is not jurisdictional but the Commission can see from
the layout that that will be left untouched, undeveloped so that all the development will occur outside
of the 100 year flood plane. This is a voluntary annexation and they appreciate the recommendation
of Staff on this. The way the package was contemplated to be tied together in the application for
annexation was that we would work through the development issues and reach what we hope would
be an acceptable agreement. The comprehensive plan designation then goes to the low density
residential; then as was discussed (at the last Commission meeting) we were able to design to the R-
1 A zoning criteria. In consultation with the City Attorney (today) we understood the advertising
glitch and we appreciate the Commission considering these as a package, acting on them (if you will
tonight) three of them and if approved then having them all be contingent on the adoption of the
zoning on February 9th meeting and tying them together as a package. We think it is fine to consider
that in two weeks, we want to be absolutely sure there is complete opportunity for public input on
any of the questions associated with this application.
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Mr. Leonhardt said the want to acknowledge their appreciation to the City Staff, they have been very
professional and delight in reviewing these issues and negotiating with them. We also express
appreciation for several excellent ideas that were raised by Commissioners directly at the meeting two
weeks ago regarding the development agreement.
Mr. Leonhardt said there has been a lot of discussion regarding this and said to point out that they
think that the application in it's present form does a great deal to resolve the various issues that has
been raised by the Steering Committee, and bring some closure to the open questions. Mr. Leonhardt
said that they hope that the Commission acts favorably upon each of the four items, three this evening
and one in two weeks. The opportunity to have the bulk of this property to be conveyed/dedicated
to some public agency to assure that it will be in conservation mode in to purpintuity, we think is an
important and positive step. The extra ordinary step of designing to Outstanding Florida Stormwater
Criteria even though the property is not abutting outstanding Florida waters, we thinks also sets a
good role model for possible additional property such as this in the future.
Mr. Leonhardt pointed out that there is a schedule that the engineer has inserted which explains that
there is about 2.39 acres within the 100 year flood plane that will not be developed, although it is not
jurisdictional, and we will use about 6.24 % of the property that would other wise be developable for
the extraordinary stormwater retention system that will be incorporated into the design plans.
Mr. Leonhardt said if the Commission approves the package of items, they will then go forward, and
it would be an actual home builder, that would come back in and go through all the City's processes
for the design of a subdivision, attending to all the engineering issues and all the specifics of lot
layout; that is why it is shown to the Commission now as a conceptual layout (exhibit B) now and
the Staff will continue to monitor and review this process through the completion of a final
subdivision plat.
Commissioner McLeod said regarding the layout that the Commission just received, north of the
retention pond, there is a strip of property showing that is not in the wetland; and asked if that was
the 2.39 acres that was just talked about.
Dale Crosby, engineer for the project, showed the area Commissioner McLeod was talking about on
a map.
Commissioner McLeod said he noticed in the agreement, it states that there will be no parks or
recreation and in lieu of that the developer will pay a fee, that will be established by the City's Parks
Director and asked when will the Commission know what the fee is and how is the fee established.
Manager McLemore stated that has not been determined as yet.
Commissioner McLeod said if the Commission is approving the agreement, then they are approving
something the Commission doesn't know what the dollar figure is.
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Manager McLemore said this is unique to this agreement and it can be brought back to the
Commission as a separate item.
Mr. Carrington said during the review of the preliminary and final site plan during the Development
Review Committee meetings, the Parks Director will analyze the number of lots and the space needed
and make that determination as to fees in lieu, if in fact dedication is not required. It would be
preliminary at this stage to try to establish a dollar figure per lot without giving the Parks Director
an opportunity to review and make a recommendation. Discussion ensued.
Mayor Partyka asked for clarification regarding the development envelop saying 34.29 acres and
have 110 lots. Mayor Partyka said the density then comes out at 3. 1, where if put at 2.75 (based on
the agreement) it would say you should have about 93 lots and asked if that was correct in the way
density is calculated.
Mr. Cosby said the 34.29 does not include the northern tip (it's in the flood plane) and then it does
not include the wetland areas there; so if you added the pieces up, you end up at 40.25 acres. The
way you get there is the development envelope the two wetland pieces and the 2.39 acres. If you use
that number the density will be 2.73 and that is the manner in which 110 lots were determined.
Mayor Partyka said you are counting wetlands as part of acreage for density.
Mr. Cosby said yes, and showed the Commission on the map the wetland areas he was referring to.
Mayor Partyka said his question is "do you add wetlands to developable acres" and said he thought
that was excluded when this piece was considered.
Manager McLemore said our agreement was it would be no more than 2.75 on the roughly 40 acres,
that was uplands developable property; which means the isolated wetlands (which is what Cosby was
showing) would not be mitigated and set off somewhere. Our agreement was 2.75 on (initially) 39.67
acres, was the basis of the agreement; the developer has agreed because the Commission asked for
it, they will "back away" from some of the 100 year flood plane areas and the isolated wetlands that
are very little value. .
Mayor Partyka said he has talked to County Commissioner Randy Morris in reference to the letter
we have and Commissioner Morris said the one foot easement doesn't hold up legally, that it's proper
from a legal standpoint to go to ten feet and asked if that was true or not.
Mr. Leonhardt said he had not heard of that, the one foot is fine as a barrier and we thought that
having it become owned by the Homeowners Associations for purposes of maintenance and
responsibility would be an appropriate way to go, based on the Commission's request at the last
meeting.
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Commissioner GenneU asked if there is any place in the agreement where it states that the streets will
be constructed to City standards.
Mr. Leonhardt said they have to be.
Manager McLemore said we require the same for private developments as we do for public streets,
unless the Commission were to issue a variance, and we generally have not done that.
Mr. Leonhardt said nothing about the agreement would eliminate the compliance with City standards
for the entire subdivision platting process.
Commissioner Gennell asked about the zoning and if another party bought the development.
Manager McLemore said the zoning will prevail, whether this developer is here or not.
Attorney Guthrie said the zoning will run with the land, unless the Commission changes it and the
development agreement locks it in for a finite period of time.
Mr. Leonhardt said under the agreement, everything that is not included within the subdivision that
is designed and platted to City standards, everything not in that is conveyed by deed, to presumably
the Water Management District or whom ever the City directs us to convey it to, there will be no
ownership transferring beyond the present owner.
Manager McLemore said we required the conveyance to take place within twelve months, even if
they don't build anything.
Commissioner Gennell said she has a letter from the Division of Historical Resources; in the ORC
report to the City's Compo Plan, there is a letter from the same individual indicating that the south
shore of Lake Jesup has the probability of holding archeologically significant resources. In
recognizing that, they asked the City, in the ORC report, to see that we do what we could to look
at those and examine them before development takes place. Commissioner Gennell said she requests
that an archeological survey becomes part of the developers agreement.
Mr. Leonhardt said the developer will honor the request to add an archeological survey to be done
in the developers agreement.
Commissioner Martinez said he was under the understanding that any developer or buyer, subsequent
to the approval of these documents, will have to adhere by this agreement that we are going into, they
cannot change, alter it or change it in any shape or form and asked if that was correct.
Attorney Guthrie said that is correct, the only way this can be changed is to have another Public
Hearing before the Commission and decide upon.
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Commissioner Martinez said with regard to building in the reduced area of wetlands, in the outer
fringes of the property, the developer will abide by the City's Code etc., and asked if that includes
approval by St. John's River Water Management District and the Army Corps of Engineers.
Mr. Leonhardt said yes, those rules must be complied with in addition to the City's requirements.
Commissioner Blake said in the southwest corner of the property, there is a triangle, (his guess) 4 or
5 acres of uplands, and asked if those will be developed on.
Mr. Leonhardt said as contemplated by this agreement, those (acres) will be included in the
conveyance.
Commissioner Blake mentioned that in the annexation agreement, Section 4, development of the
property, (b) - (top of page 4) says "".owner may use developer set aside isolated or marginal
wetlands provided that the same is in compliance with all State, Federal, County, Water Management
District and applicable regulations"; and asked ifit is talking about the small areas that are internal
not within the flood plane, not within the floodway.
Mr. Leonhardt said that is correct.
Commissioner Blake said according to the chart that is a minimal amount, 1.8 (+-) acres. Mr.
Leonhardt said that is correct.
Commissioner Blake said on the same page (4) same item, (c), it says parties acknowledge that the
parcels in this preliminary development plan are calculated in gross acres; and stated that he thought
this was done on net acres not gross acres.
Mr. Leonhardt stated that he thinks that is a reference to the fact that the stormwater retention areas,
open spaces and streets are all part of the developable uplands and will be included in the calculations
of the gross acreage, for purposes of calculating the density.
Commissioner Blake said he would like to be sure that there is no confusion between the 40+ acres
as a developable area and a maximum density of 2. 75 on that area vs. the entire 296 acre parcel.
Mr. Leonhardt said they believe that as clear; and on page 8 g(1) stated that maximum number oflots
shall be 110 in any event.
Commissioner McLeod said shouldn't that be written in so there will be no confusion. Attorney
Guthrie said "gross developable acres" can be added for clarification.
Commissioner Blake said in Section 6, provision of public facilities and services,. page 5 of the
development agreement; regarding the water system, and said he was told that there is a different way
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of doing this, there is a straight line system or loop systems - apparently a loop system costs a little
more to put in but is much cheaper and easier to maintain from the City's perspective if there was a
broken pipe of something, in terms of water safety, flushing lines; whereas, if there is a straight line
system, you would have to issue a boil water alerts in the event of a break and things such as that.
Mr. Lockcuff said where practical, it is beneficial to loop a system. Commissioner Blake asked if this
will be a loop system. Mr. Lockcuff said no, but it will be looped internal in the development, but
the line going out will be a "dead-end" line, but there will be sufficient usage in the development to
keep the line flushed.
Commissioner Blake said with regard to the lift stations that will be installed out there, in the event
of any sort of a power outage or failure of a pump, asked what type of a safety valve or reservoir (or
something) to keep it from overflowing. Mr. Lockcuff said we have emergency portable generators.
Discussion.
Mr. Cosby said there are safety factors taken in with a conventional design, on top of that there could
be an additional factoring in of a safety factor, there could be some tempering of that when they get
to the final designs so that there is some huge holding tank type of thing; in other words, there could
be a reasonable solution to that.
Mayor Partyka opened the floor to public input.
Thomas McCord, 2310 Salt Creek Trail, Black Hammock, spoke regarding the water elevations of
Lake Jesup in regards to the Battle Ridge Project.
Ann Colby, Assistant Seminole County Attorney, stated that the County Commission has requested
that she and Tony Matthews present to the Commission some concerns that has been raised by their
Staff with regards to this annexation, both legal and developmental concerns. From a legal
standpoint, their main concern was that this annexation would create an enclave of unincorporated
Seminole County with all of the attendant problems concerning provision of services in the future.
Mayor Partyka asked about the 10 foot easement that Commissioner Morris spoke of Ms. Colby
said she is not prepared to address that as it is the first time she has heard of that concern of the
Commissioner.
Commissioner Blake asked Ms. Colby if she is suggesting that she hasn't spoken with County
Chairman Morris on that specific issue on terms of easements. Ms. Colby said that is correct.
Commissioner Blake asked Ms. Colby if she was aware of any situation where a one foot easement
for conservation purposes has been struck down by the Courts. Mr. Colby said no, she was not asked
to look into that and that being raised as an issue is new to her.
Commissioner Blake said in reference of enclaves, he looked at the Florida Statutes and it does in fact
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define an enclave and it states that "".an enclave is any unincorporated improved or developed area
that is enclosed within and bounded on all sides by a single municipality." Commissioner Blake then
stated that to his understanding this property would not be creating a situation of that sort. Ms.
Colby said there is a great deal of judicial flexibility when it comes to deciding to what an enclave is
and what it is not; here admittedly we have an enclosure by more than one municipality, but in effect
what it is doing is closing off - creating an island of unincorporated Seminole County property, which
may result, (in the future) in the difficulty of services in the future and this is a concern.
Commissioner Blake said some of the issues that are being brought out may simply be "red herring"
issues and not really directed to the real issue, that the City of Winter Springs has before it a
voluntary annexation application from a property owner that desires to be in the City of Winter
Springs and it meets all the requirements under Florida Statutes and we as a Commission has to
evaluate that type of an application on its merits and that land owner should not be prohibited from
having the types of municipal services that in fact are available for their property, much as this island
as Ms. Colby has defined, may also. Commissioner Blake said it is interesting to note that that
portion of the unincoproprated area, that would be an island as Ms. Colby defined, certainly has the
ability to make application into the City of Oviedo or the City of Winter Springs in order to get the
type of municipal services that they may desire; the County currently is in no position to provide it,
in fact the types of municipal services that they require, even now, are not provided by the County
but are required to be provided by inter-local agreements between the municipalities that surround
that area. Ms. Colby said the County understands that and the reason she is present is for more for
information. Commissioner Blake said he doesn't understand why the County feels the need to voice
certain types of objections when in fact they are groundless and baseless and in fact are acting to
hamper the provisions of services in that area as opposed to enhancing the provision of those services.
Manager McLemore said the purpose of this was to get the issue on the record so it might be argued
at a future date. Manager McLemore said he would like to get the City Attorney's opinion relative
to this enclave issue on record.
Attorney Guthrie said that the City Manager made him aware that the County was raising this as an
issue; and said he looked at the law and said he agrees with Ms. Colby that the Courts have crafted
a lot of annexation law but said he thought in response to that is a legislative response where they
amended Section 171.0131(13) where enclave is defined. It is an area surrounded on all four sides
by a single municipality, so right now Attorney Guthrie said he doesn't think we have a legal enclave.
Mr. Matthews, Seminole County Comprehensive Planning Division, thanked the Commission for
allowing them to speak on this issue. Mr. Matthews said on behalf of the Board of County
Commissioners and Staff say his appreciations for all the cooperation he received from City Staff and
the City Commission on this issue. Mr. Matthews gave a copy of the letter from Chairman Morris
regarding the concerns. Mr. Matthews said they have reviewed the development agreement and said
the letter represents the District Commissioner's (not from the full Board of County Commissioners)
issues and stated that there some issues raised and most have been addressed in the proposed
agreement and there are a couple that have not been mentioned and that is a text amendment to the
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City's Comprehensive Plan, to add the plan policy. Mr. Matthew said the County is hoping to start
this year working with all the Cities to do joint planning agreements and said this would give the
County time to do that, because once this is started it may take time to put a J.P. A. together. This
recommendation would get the County to a joint planning agreement in the interim for the adoption
of this policy and the second issue is the trail issue, the Florida National Scenic Trail runs east to west
and traverses this property along the old R.R. line and what they ask is that some kind of provision
or statement be put in the development agreement to accommodate that trail whenever it is
developed. Mr. Matthews said he can't speak to the details of the trail issue tonight, and how that
would impact this proposed subdivision but those things could be worked out as long as it was a part
of the agreement to do that so that the applicant would be required, as a condition of the agreement,
to at least meet with the County and discuss the trail issue.
Mayor Partyka asked Mr. Matthews if he knew how Commissioner Morris came to the position
regarding the 10 foot easement. Mr. Matthews said he knows that the 10 foot easement was a
recommendation that came from their current manager of their Planning Division. Mayor Partyka
asked about Commissioner Morris' recommendation that the residential floor area going from 1,800
to 2,000 because of McKinley's Mill was at 2,00 sq.ft. Mr. Matthews said the reason for that was
that they 100ked, (using their G.I.S. system) at the median lot sizes and home sizes in McKinley's Mill
and said the 2,000 sq.ft., was a recommendation that was from him to be that much more compatible
with McKinley's Mill. Mr. Matthews mentioned that the Seminole County Board of Commissioners
adopted Suburban Estates and said he has not had an opportunity to go back and meet with the
Commission (at a full board) to ask them if they have changed their mind, and said he is making the
assumption that the County Commission still maintains the current position as stated in the letter.
Mayor Partyka asked the developer if they could consider going from 1,800 sq.ft. To 2,000 sq.ft.,as
a minimum residential home, which would eliminate a major point of the County. Mr. Leonhardt said
not being a home builder, what they are finding in talking to the home builders in the community that
they are talking with are happy with the R-IA zoning and they have alerted the home builders that
there is a requirement that we achieve a retail sales value for the lot and home in the $180,000 and
higher price range, and said the R-1A standards call for 1,800 sq.ft. so it is difficult to ask Mr. Allen
to pick a number out of the air, and so the answer is no.
Manager McLemore said to Mr. Matthews, that the City has gone on record saying that we respect
the Urban Service Line and we have no interest in trying to go beyond that point and said he thinks
as indication as to the sincerity about that, we have amended our planning map back to that line.
Manager McLemore said the part that bothers him is with a joint agreement between the City of
Winter Springs and the City of Oviedo relative to annexation, he said he doesn't have a problem with
that and said the City has tried to say that, but what bothers him is getting "stonewalled" (and said
he doesn't know that this would happen) by Oviedo to come to the table and get to an agreement and
said it kind of puts the City in a difficult position.
Manager McLemore said for clarification as to what the County is asking and that being "no
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annexations until such time as a Joint Planning Area Agreement can be consummated between the
City, County, Oviedo and Winter Springs" and asked if that is what Mr. Matthews is asking. Mr.
Matthews said yes. Manager McLemore said he doesn't think anyone has a problem with that except
with one proviso, that the City of Oviedo agrees with that also, from this perspective, if Winter
Springs was to limit ourselves to that by some agreement with the County, nothing limits Oviedo to
that and we know that Oviedo can annex right across the Urban Service Line, we know they can't
get the zoning, but said he is not sure it is a fair situation. Manager McLemore said all he is asking
is that language, as long as it is a bi-lateral agreement between all the parties and not just one party
now "held hostage" to some agreement and all the parties don't agree, and said that is his concern.
Mr. Matthews said his vision of that was, since it will take awhile to do joint planning agreements,
that the only point he was trying to make is that from this point on to this property is annexed, any
future annexations that may be considered, either by the City of Winter Springs or the City of Oviedo
into the County's rural area, that we work out those joint planning agreements and not withstanding,
that might be on the record or in a letter or even placed in this agreement; it is his feeling that having
it in the Comprehensive Plan would straighten that, and would actually would make potentially the
decision of this body better as far as with D.C.A. if that were there. Mr. Matthews said that is one
thing that D.C.A. had alluded to being done.
Manager McLemore said he thinks there is a version of that, that this City would be very much
agreeable to but said he would have to caution the Commission about an agreement that could work
against them when the other party would not honor such an agreement.
Mr. Matthews said they are more than happy to work with both jurisdictions to come up with some
sort of an agreement that would accomplish that.
Manager McLemore said in a letter he furnished to the Commissioners, he reiterated the direction of
this Commission, which was stating again that they have no interest of going beyond the Urban
Service Line and we are totally agreeable to working out an inter-local agreement for limiting future
annexations, but it was captioned and styled in such a way that as long as all the parties agreed to
that.
Mr. Matthews said an option might be something short of a joint planning agreement, just an
annexation agreement to get us in the interim, and said that he can't speak to how Oviedo might
speak to that or his boss.
Manager McLemore said all the City of Winter Springs needs is an agreement from Oviedo to honor
this same statement because this Commission has made its policy known.
Commissioner Martinez mentioned the Small Area Study and asked Mr. Matthews if that was part
of the County's Comprehensive Plan. Mr. Matthews stated that it is not part of the Compo Plan, it
is a separate document, it was sent to the State as support documentation to a series of Plan
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amendments that the County Commission adopted in 1994. Commissioner Martinez asked if included
in the plans was an urban line that was drafted by the County. Mr. Matthews said there should be
one but he was not positive. Commissioner Martinez asked if east of the line, (today) lies Battle
Ridge. Mr. Matthews said the urban rural boundary that was adopted by the Board falls on the east
boundary of this project. Commissioner Martinez asked what type of developments can go into an
urban zone. Mr. Matthews said the County defines urban as being a type of land use designation that
requires a full range of urban services, which includes: public water, sewer, law enforcement, fire
protection, parks and those sort of things. Mr. Matthews said the property that is being discussed
is designated Suburban Estates, which is the least intense of all of the County's designations,
Suburban Estates land use can be developed without a full range of services, specifically public sever
and water; you can use well and septic, if you go any more dense than that is when the full range of
services is needed.
Commissioner Martinez said if the zoning were to be changes, all the things Mr. Matthews just stated
would be factual. Mr. Matthews said that is correct, if the property were to remain in the County and
the density of development was increased on it, it would require the full range of services.
Commissioner Martinez said if the property was annexed by the City of Winter Springs and the City
provides the range of services (that Matthews stipulated previous) it would "fit" the category of an
Urban Development Zone. Mr. Matthews said basically yes. Commissioner Martinez said according
to the County's Urban Development Zone, you can develop low, medium, and high density residential
and commercial and industrial. Mr. Matthews said that was correct. Commissioner Martinez then
stated that if the plans are approved, the City of Winter Springs has complied witty all the County's
requisite, then the property would fit into the category. Mr. Matthews said yes, but he wasn't sure
about the one service vs. the other, but basically overall yes.
Commissioner McLeod said he is surprised at the County's approach at this. Commissioner McLeod
said the County's Joint Planning Agreement should have no attachment to this development
agreement and said he thinks you are absolutely tying your hands; if there is a joint agreement that
needs to be worked out between the County, the City and Oviedo, that is totally a separate issue from
this particular development. Commissioner McLeod said he thinks the Commission needs to keep
that in mind as we go forward this evening.
Commissioner McLeod said that not that the City shouldn't have a Joint Planning Agreement, but that
he doesn't believe that it has any merit to be tied to this particular agreement. Commissioner McLeod
said the County is asking the City, with regards to the future trail development, to make sure it is in
this particular developers property, and asked where would the County like to see that and said that
becomes a little unfair. Commissioner McLeod said the property that the developer is giving up will
go to government agency, and asked if that particular property lend itself to have a trail put on it.
Mr. Matthews said he is not sure exactly where the alignment would fall in this project and that is
why he didn't say anything specifically in the letter, except to some how insure that when and if the
trail comes through there, that it doesn't encumber the trail and interfere. Mr. Matthews said he is
not a trail expert, but said he supposes the trail could be realigned around the development.
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Discussion.
Commissioner McLeod said that things are being brought before the Commission and asked for but
there is nothing concrete that is before this Commission that has any merit or evidence as to what the
County is asking for.
Manager McLemore said ifhe is understanding correctly, the inter-local agreement should not be part
of the development agreement, by which we are putting certain constraints on this developer and said
he agrees with that. Manager McLemore said the fact the we already have in the record is that the
City has made the statement that we desire to enter into an inter-local agreement to establish those
planning boundaries and we have said (to comfort the Black Hammock people) that there would be
long range plans that all parties agree to on the future of the Hammock.
Mr. Matthews said for the record he wasn't asking for that condition to part of the development
agreement, but just to do an amendment to your Compo Plan and said he doesn't disagree and said
that it shouldn't be a part of the development agreement.
Valerie EI-Jamil, 1230 MacTavandash Dr., (McKinley's Mill) speaking for the President of
MacKinley's Mill, expressed objection to the annexation, rezoning or any other action in regards to
Battle Ridge and also mentioned "cut-through" traffic.
Bob Dallari, Councilman from the City of Oviedo, read a letter for the record, and said that the City
of Oviedo's Compo Plan prohibits them from extending their services north of S.R. 434 without
contacting Seminole County and stated that they are not changing their Compo Plan. Mr. Dallari said
the Oviedo City Council does not have any interest of extending the boundaries and requested the
City of Winter Springs to participate in the Joint Planning effort before the adoption of this ordinance.
Mr. Dallari said a reason for that is because of the constraints and service demands that this
development would put on the City of Oviedo i.e. traffic, parks, fire, police, etc. Other issues that
concern the Council is the lack of protection to environmental sensitive areas, they haven't seen any
conservation designation or transition for zoning. Another area is reference to the one foot of
property to protect Black Hammock from Battle Ridge and stated one of questions he has is it is true
that it does protect the Black Hammock but it does not prohibit the City of Winter Springs from
condemning that property and putting a road across it. Mr. Dallari said another issue that would be
confusing in the future would be that he believes that the residents who will reside there would have
Oviedo City addresses, and reside in Winter Springs. Other issues is the conflicting information on
the traffic and stated that the City of Oviedo has done several studies, one being the north/south study
and also the traffic on the gas station on the corner of Palmer and 434 and if the City of Winter
Springs looks at the studies that they have performed and the information that is provided to Winter
Springs, there is various conflicting information that the City should look into. Lastly, in the
development order, and that he heard this evening is "the developer shall make a good faith effort to
have a retail value of the completed homes and lots to be in the $180,000 price range and higher - if
the City is going to continue with that Mr. Dallari said he would like to see that "nailed" down as it
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is a little vague. Mr. Dallari said he would appreciate it if the two Cities could sit down, and asked
that the Commission instruct the City Manager to contact Oviedo's City Manager to sit down and
talk about a joint planning agreement.
Gerald Korman, resident ofLongwood, land owner across the street from the subject property, spoke
in favor of the request.
Jim Logue, 3250 Stone Street, representing the Black Hammock Homeowners Association, stated
that the homeowners believe that the City of Winter Springs should deny this project.
Sandra Bogan, Florida Audubon Society and also speaking for the Seminole and Orange Audubon
Societies, gave the Mayor and Commission a package with maps, an economic study pointing out the
economics of urban sprawl and the benefits of greenways and trails and a point by point list of issues
regarding Battle Ridge.
Moti Khemlani, 605 Morgan Street, said this is a controversial issue and spoke against the project
and asked the Commission not to move on this project.
Robert King, 2211 Black Hammock, stated his concern about the growth management process.
Peggy Powell, 1711 Stone Street, spoke about her objection to the project and asked that the
Commission deny the project.
Grey Wilson, 1330 MacTavandash Drive, also spoke regarding the growth management process.
Jim Logue, 3250 Stone Street, spoke about the quality oflife living in the Black Hammock area.
Manager McLemore stated that the one reason the process has taken as long as it has is because we
committed a lengthily process of discovery to get us to the point where we felt we knew everything
there was to know and we were at a point where we could make a decision. The Compo Plan issue,
in terms of adding a policy to our Compo Plan stating we would abide by the rural service line and not
annex into the Hammock any further, I see no difficulty with that problem again as long as we have
a satisfaction to a mutual agreement with the City of Oviedo on that, and that is something we would
do any how; the location - has been point to be "out yonder" away from the City, as you know, plans
are rapidly developing, that area is going to be next door to the City of Winter Springs, developed
and urbanized in 3 to 5 years, to assume that it will not be - is just not in reality what's going to
happen, so it is going to be next door to you and if developed it would be just a normal extension of
your City in an easterly direction (talking about Battle Ridge only); this area is in the policy area you
have established as your area of annexation, this is a voluntary act on part of the land holders, who
desire to do something with their property. Manager McLemore said the last three points to make
is: (1) what do you haye when this is done assuming this is approved? What you have when it is done,
if it is approved is a very high end single family residential community, basically hidden away in a
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preserve area, which most people will not even know it's there because of it's limited development
of virtually no impact on anyone around them and it has a valuated contribution to this City; (2)
Manager McLemore said it is important for the record to say, because this has been attacked several
times - The City has the ability to serve this property already, it does not represent a costly
development for the City and we are prepared today, if we had to, to serve this property without any
additional employees.
Manager McLemore said he appreciates the time he has spent with Jim Logue and Bob Keen to get
a feel where they are coming from, to go on their property and look at it and get a feeling for it, for
where they are coming from and the values that they hold dear in this process; and said Winter
Springs (in a community like this) is not that bad of a place to live, even though we respect the
residents of Black Hammock's right to be in a rural area. Manager McLemore said he doesn't think
that the real issue is not any of that, and said he thinks the real issue is, from listening from the people,
is they are concerned that this project will in some way, describes and predicts without any ability of
this Body to control, what's going to happen to the real area of concern which is Black Hammock;
Manager McLemore said he doesn't really think the Battle Ridge is the peoples real issue, their real
issue is what happens to the Black Hammock, whether the City of Winter Springs annexes Battle
Ridge or not, the question is what impact does that have on the quality of life that these people enjoy
in that community. Manager McLemore said the Commission has the ability to control that, the
Commission has ability to determine that no, this annexation will not in fact be detrimental to these
people, the Commission has the ability through what their legislative ability and powers gives them
to go even further and provide a better situation than they have right now, for a better level of
protection then they currently enjoy, by virtue of working out with the City of Oviedo, the County
and the City of Winter Springs, will agree to, as the future of the Black Hammock. Manager
McLemore said he feels that the City can craft, along with Staff, something that will be more
meaningful than what they have now. Manager McLemore said he thinks that the Commission has
made a commitment to do that and that he believes that through the Commission's hard work with
Staff and with the City of Oviedo (if they Oviedo really wants to do this - we have tried for over a
year now to get them to the table), this Commission has said they are willing to do it, to work our
an agreement, that the Black Hammock people want that will preserve their way of life in the future.
Manager McLemore said that is what this is all about and this Commission has the ability to make that
happen.
Mayor Partyka called a recess at 10:00 p.m. Mayor Partyka reconvened the meeting at 10: 12 p.m.
Mayor Partyka read a letter form Regina Bearswell, the President of McKinleys Mill Homeowners
Association objection to this project.
Commissioner Gennell asked how much fill will have to be brought in for the homes. Mr. Cosby said
they have not done a topo survey as yet and said he is hopeful that it would not be a exurbanite
amount offill because there is a natural slope across the property but said he cannot answer that until
they get a final grading plan.
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Motion was made by Commissioner McLeod to approve the adoption of Ord. 694, to annex
the 296.96 acres at Battle Ridge property located on the east side of S.R. 417 and on the north
side of S.R. 434 based on the above findings as outlined in the agenda and cooperating all the
representations and changes made. Seconded by Commissioner Blake. Discussion.
Commissioner Gennell stated that she doesn't think that this development belongs in our City,
she said she doesn't think that it will be fair to the future residents that will live there to be
isolated out there; We are already the largest in size City in the County, we have the highest
per capita income in the County, what is it going to take to make us turn inward and start
taking care of what we already have; as far as the buffer goes, we are the same City that had
our own legal council tell us, on the other buffer that we had, that it probably wouldn't be
defendable in court, so Commissioner Gennell said she will not "buy" in any buffers, it's going
to encroach on valuable wetlands and habitat and it probably will not pay for itself, it's
ignoring the "gateway" concept that adopted by our own visioning committee and by Seminole
County. Commissioner Gennell said we are the same City that objected to the annexation of
the Casselberry property on the same basis that Oviedo is objection to us encroaching over
into their area and we prevailed Casselberry is not annexing it we are because it is in our area,
it's in our corridor and it should rightfully belong to us and said she just finds it a very big
problem to be so hypocritical about we object it from one City but then we go and do it to
another one; it's not going to provide a good quality of life for the people that live in that
neighborhood, it's over-riding our own residents because it's fine enough to say we don't have
any City residents in here saying for or against, but in fact we do, we have our Planning and
Zoning Board that represents our residents and it's spoken on two occasions and turned it
down. Commissioner Gennell said we risk alienating the other jurisdictions, which we have,
some of us, most of us have been working pretty hard to develop relationships with and it may
impact, it may have negative ramifications down the road. Commissioner Gennell said as far
as the Small Area Study goes, there have been a lot of references to it pro and con, said she is
almost, probably, the only one from this City, sitting here tonight, who sat in on those Small
Area Studies, and said she can tell you that this was a different administration, it was a
different time, but can tell you that the City of Winter Springs did not make a bonafide
contribution to that Small Area Study; it didn't open and honestly engage itself (if you will)
and said she will swear to that, in the past we haye policy setting, by default, done by
administration because a weak City Commission, now at the very least, the outcome of this and
the future of the whole City depends on this Commission conducting some yearly strategic
planning exercises so that we are unified and so that the City Manager has a little better feel.
Commissioner Gennell said she listened to the tapes where he (Manager) spoke to our own
P&Z a few days ago and outlined his quandary sometimes, in his efforts to get public policy
makers to come to good decisions and saying that they had sometimes trouble putting them
out and focusing and yet we have yet to sit down and meet for that in this City since she has
been here and said she thinks it high time, there has been a lot of problems, but they do not
exist with the current Commission and with the current Staff. Commissioner Gennell quoted
from an article that references the caring capacity network "u. a Washington based group
interested in growth issues, it's issued a new report that states the tax burden on existing
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residents increases because of the cost of expanding publicly funded infrastructure and services
to accommodate new growth is greater than the tax assessment and contributions of the
residents. Growth which is sited as the answer of all problems has always been a win/ loose
proposition, the winners are the people in the position to profit from the growth: builders,
bankers, real estate agents, the news media, the loosers are the rest of the existing residents
who have to pay for growth; they loose not only in money, in the form of higher and higher
taxes but quality of life, they get more crowded roads and schools, more crime, more pollution,
more inflated property values, more loss of farm land, and more loss of wildlife habitat.
Commissioner Gennell said it goes on to say "...Americans will have to impose a new paradigm
on their governments from the Court House to the White House and they will have to do it by
brute force at the ballot box, they will get no help from the profiteers of growth who defend
the way munition makers defend war; local officials will have to realize that the old paradigm
puts them on a treadmill, they are short of tax revenues so they seek growth, but the growth
creates a greater need for tax revenues than it supplies, so the local official, doing what he
thinks best never catches up, he finds that as the need for taxes continuously increases the
quality of the community continually decreases and the shortage of infrastructure out paces
his efforts to catch up; the United States population is growing at a rate of 3 million a year,
60% of that is immigration, we are now at 200 and 70 million people, just 47 years ago we had
only 150 million; the caring capacity network estimates that if growth rates continue the
United States will have half a billion people by the year 2050; it's quite obvious that we are on
the path, if we just look around, the United States in 1950 was an infinitely better country than
it is today, less crime, less iligimatmacy, less taxes, less welfare, less government, less pollution,
less crowding, less drug abuse, better schools, better communities, more open spaces; it was
so much better in most respects, it seems like an entirely different country to those of us old
enough to remember it. The issue however is not whether we can go back to what the United
States use to be we can't, the issue is whether we are going to become a Country far far worse
than we are now, a Country with far more people, more pollution, more poverty, more crime,
and more authorization government all in a more degraded environment. That will happen
if we do not build a political constituency that realizes that growth doesn't pay for itself,
growth in the 20th century is the wrong policy in the wrong place, at the wrong time, for the
wrong reasolls."
Commissioner McLeod said on our present water and sewer lines (he understands) sits about
1,200 feet to the west of the property. The water and sewer is going to be taken from that
location to the property line and paid for by the developer not by the City and said he doesn't
see where the cost of that is impacting the citizens of the City. Commissioner McLeod said the
difference between Casselberry and this particular instance is that there was an easement
crossing provision between the present property line, between Casselberry and that particular
piece of property and Winn Dixie, in order to go into Casselberry would have had to cross that
easement which they could not do and that is the failure of that particular one and said he
doesn't see where the two connects.
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Commissioner Martinez said he is a very simple individual, and he came along the hard way
and has earned everything he has achieved in this life, he acts in good faith when he does
things and said he doesn't try to hurt anyone, however, he supported the people in the Black
Hammock who had a ligatmite gripe back in 1994, when this issue first went before the County
and it involved a large development which encroached into the wetlands and the flood plane
zone. This Commission recently approved a project in the Reserves which totally encroached
into the flood plane zone and when we look intelligently at all these things that have been
happening here and you weight the consequences, you find that the County itself drafted the
document which allows the City to do what they are doing now, legally any person who owns
that property, if they went to Court they would win a case against anyone, the County, Oviedo
or the City of Winter Springs because the urban boundary line designates the property within
the urban area and that area is developable in many different ways and the owner of the
property has the right to develop it and that property will be developed by someone
somewhere sometime within the next two or three years regardless what any body does and
this is the truth. Commissioner Martinez said that is the part that has swayed him to go along
with the City of Winter Springs and said he thinks the City of Winter Springs through what
has been exposed here today has gone overboard to make sure that this is a good project, that
there is no encroachment into the rural areas of the Black Hammock, that there are some
safeguards put in place to protect the people there, that if the City of Oviedo is willing to, the
City of Winter Springs wants to sit down and work on an inter-local planning project to assure
the people in the Black Hammock that there will be no further encroachment by anyone into
their rural areas and if we are going to be fair to all concerned, we have to say that based on
everything that has been presented here and taking away the emotional aspect of the residents
in Black Hammock (and said he feels for them) because he knows, he has placed himself in that
position many times, when he went to the County in defense of other people, including what
happened in Sanford recently when they designated M-l and M-2 areas, in spite of what the
people wanted or what the people said and said he thinks while acting in good faith and while
being fair to all concerned, it leaves very little choice in which way the City of Winter Springs
should be leaning.
Commissioner Miller stated that he listened with great interest all the different inputs this
evening and two weeks ago and said he thinks there is a lot of compelling reasons for looking
at this project in light of the economic benefits to the City in terms of what it will add to the
overall community on this side of Lake Jesup. One thing he hopes that comes out of this,
which ever way this issue is solved tonight, is that the City of Winter Springs will be able to
work in the near term with the City of Oviedo and also with the County towards arraigning
or least figuring out what it is, it's in your interest and our interest in the future so that we can
avoid having to bring something to this point whe."e people seem to be irritated because
Oviedo has their interest, we have our interest but we are not willing to discuss these interests
with each other, so we kind of go our way, Oviedo kind of go it's way, and said he doesn't
know all of the background of what's happened here in the last 5 or 6 years in regard to
government, and said he has been a resident for 8 years now but it has come to his attention
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in the last year or so that there has been a reticence, he thinks, on the part of government in
the area to sit down and constructively and pro-actively cooperate so that we each have our
best interest at heart and the best interest of our citizens; so that this works out, so that we
don't annex a piece of property in Chuluota (for example) it makes sense economically for us
or conversely Oviedo moves down along the south side of Red Bug Road because it's in their
interest economically to annex a piece of property down there. Commissioner Miller said he
thinks there are line that can be more or less drawn; an analogy would be us and the Soviet
Union during the cold war, we knew, we had come to an agreement, this was your area, this
was our area, and we more or less respected each others areas, that's not the case any longer
and said he wasn't sure it's in many regards for the best. Commissioner Miller said he thinks
the bottom line for him is that he looks at what happened here a couple of years ago when they
put the GreeneWay through, and said he thinks before that went in, it probably made a lot of
sense for someone of a map maker to be able to sit down and say "well this is probably where
the lines ought to be drawn between the two Cities" (referring to Oviedo and Winter Springs)
now that the GreeneWay is there, the City fathers of Winter Springs, a while back, decided
that our visioning program, the line really ought to be our gateway on the eastern end, really
ought to be at the GreeneWay and said he still believes that to be the case (his own personal
view). That probably is a natural boundary for Winter Springs and in conclusion however this
goes he hopes that we can sit down with the City of Oviedo, at least the two City Managers
and sit down in the next year and also at the County and work cooperatively and
constructively towards some kind of a plan so we can avoid stepping on each other toes and
said that is more or less a plea.
Commissioner Blake said throughout public comment there was a general theme that kept
appearing that he has to say he took some exception to and that was the one of process or the
one of rushing, why are we rushing this through, why are we in such a hurry and said he has
a tough time understanding that giving that this issue has been around since 1993 and this is
1998. Commissioner Blake said he doesn't understand how some would say this has been
rushed through any sort of process in fact as his good friend Robert King said ordinarily the
cards fall one after another, there is a time clock, you punch nt, you go through and after a
certain period of time each of these little things get done - in fact that is not what has occurred
with Battle Ridge Project simply because of the fact that he knows from this City's standpoint
that we have attempted to take additional efforts to make sure that interested parties, whether
they be in the City or out of the City, with County government or with the City of Oviedo
government or private citizens, and McKinley's Mill or in Black Hammock, had an
opportunity to have fair input and have fair information on just what was happening on this
project through the steering committee and through our open meetings and the process that
this has gone through with D.C.A. Commissioner Blake said he is somewhat confused about
that part of it, and said he has been at the other end of this thing before in attempting to alter
the way development might go and obviously time is your friend and the longer you can delay
something the better chance you have of finding that one little last detail that might help turn
it over into your favor. Commissioner Blake said he has heard a lot tonight specifically about
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inter-local coordination whether it be with the City of Winter Springs and the County or the
City of Winter Springs and the City of Oviedo or the City of Oviedo and the County, and said
it is his great hope that sometime in the very near future the three of our entities can get
together and sit down and maybe just have a good workshop on what really needs to be done
out here and to do it honestly and straight forwardly where we can say what we really feel and
the County can say what they really feel and the City of Oviedo can say what they really feel
and hopefully somehow we can find some common interests and not get all mad at each other.
There seems to be this air of bad blood that's been going on in this area for way to long, where
very small little things don't even get fair hearing whether it be from this Commission or from
Oviedo's Councilor from the County's Commission, where people are given the sense to
believe that one thing is being thought and people turn around and go and do something
different, this has happened, it's happened here, it's happened in our neighboring City or
sister City of Oviedo and it's happened at the County and it's time we stopped miss-
communicating with each other and get together and try to do things the right way. AS to
this specific development, Commissioner Blake said he thinks some people came up here with
some real issues initially and said he thinks they came up some real issues at our last meeting
and thinks they have come up with some real issues tonight and said he can tell that while he
doesn't have years and years of development experience, he thinks that the process that Battle
Ridge has gone through to this point and time is unprecedented. When Mr. Logue, when the
Black Hammock came up and started listing all of these changes that have occurred in this
project from 1993 to today, largely do to citizen effort, and said he thinks that is absolutely
remarkable, people have been heard. Commissioner Blake said to Mr. Logue "did you get
100% of what you wanted Jim" and said no you didn't, not yet. Well, there comes a time
when you have to make a decision and you have to get on with the business of life and said he
thinks that is where we are now and said there are still some unresolved issues perhaps but
that's call life, there will always be unresolved issues and said he knows the people in
McKinley's Mill are really concerned about this cut-through traffic issue and said he knows
that first hand because he lives in Chelsea Woods which was very concerned about a similar
cut-through traffic issue with the Oviedo Crossing Mall, not quite the same level, there is a
difference between 110 houses and 97,000 cars a day but said he understands and empathize
their concern. Commissioner Blake said he suggests that they need to go to their City
government and make them get their north/south corridor study done and make them build
the roads that they have to build so that traffic that can't get through a failing intersection
that continues to fail more an more because additional development that they are allowing up
and down around that intersection and to the east of that intersection, they have to address
those issues, so the people in McKinley's Mill, Commissioner Blake said he agrees with them
that they have some concerns here and said he will tell them that their answer lies, not in
taking away from some individual land owner, your answer lies in getting your elected officials
to move forward in the projects that they need to do to protect you. Commissioner Blake said
with the folks of Black Hammock, Jim Logue that was a wonderful letter that you read, I think
that defined what Black Hammock to a lot of people who probably have never been there, I've
been there, I knew half of that. You have a genuine right to be concerned and to be active to
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try and protect what it is you are trying to protect, a way of life. Commissioner Blake said he
thinks that this Commission and this land owner have gone much much farther than it has
ever gone before in attempt you to protect what it is you have and a lot of that has to do with
your own efforts and you should applaud your self, you really should be proud of what you've
gotten. Commissioner Blake said he believes that this project set up the way it is, will be a
good development and will stop further encroachment into your back yard and said he doesn't
think the domino effect is going to happen from this boundary - it could come from the south
and that's another battle for you another day but said he thinks they should be proud of what
they have so far and take that onto their next battle. Call the Question.
Attorney Guthrie said for record purposes he wants to make sure that it was to the expectation
and understanding of the Commission that we were adopting this, the effective date will be
reflected of the fact that this Ordinance is contingent upon the adoption of Ord. 695 and Ord.
696 and the approval of the annexation agreement and said he just wanted to make sure that
that was recognized and also for record keeping purposes there had been a statement in jest
that the developer had asked for it but those four item considered together if it is the
Commission's pleasure to pass them do serve a purpose of affecting the result we what which
is the control on densities and that sort of thing.
Mayor Partyka stated there is a motion to call the vote. Seconded by Commissioner McLeod.
Vote: Commissioner Martinez: aye; Commissioner Gennell: nay; Commissioner McLeod: aye;
Commissioner Miller: nay; Commissioner Blake: aye.
VOTE ON THE MAIN MOTION: Commissioner Gennell: nay; Commissioner McLeod: aye;
Commissioner Martinez: aye; Commissioner Miller: nay; Commissioner Blake: aye. Motion
passes.
Commissioner Gennell asked the City Manager that assuming that this all goes intq place, do we go
back and have to change our 434 Corridor Vision now or expand it and said she assumes that the City
has to make some adjustments.
Manager McLemore said what we would do is to amend the boundary line, putting it into the
boundary line.
C-2. Requests the Commission hold a Public Hearing to approve the Second Reading and adoption
of Ordinance No. 695, concerning the large scale comprehensive Plan amendment to change the
Future Land Use Map designation from County "Suburban Estates" to City designation "Lower
Density Residential" on the 296.96 acre Battle Ridge Property located on the east side of State Road
417 (aka The GreeneWay) and on the north side of State Road 434. PURPOSE: to request the
Commission hold a Public Hearing to approve the Second Reading and adoption of Ordinance No.
695 concerning the large scale comprehensive plan amendment to change the Future Land Use Map
designation from County "Suburban Estates" (max. 1 DU per acre) to City designation "Lower
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Density Residential" (1.1 to 3.5 DU per acre). This Public Hearing is the Second Hearing required
to take action to adopt the amendment, adopt the amendment with changes, or determine that it will
not adopt the amendment:
Attorney Guthrie read Ord. 695 by title only on Second Reading.
Mayor Partyka mentioned that he had taken public input at the beginning of item C-l and that he has
no other indication that anyone wishes to speak and closed the Public Hearing.
Motion was made by Commissioner Blake to adopt Ordinance 695 concerning a large scale
Compo Plan amendment to change the future land use map designation from County
Suburban Estates to City designation Lower Density Residential on 296.96 acre Battle Ridge
Property located on the east side of S.R. 417 and on the north side of S.R. 434, contingent upon
the adoption of Ordinance 696 and approval of the development agreement. Seconded by
Commissioner McLeod. Discussion. Vote: Commissioner Blake: aye; Commissioner Miller:
aye; Commissioner McLeod: aye; Commissioner Gennell: nay; Commissioner Martinez: aye.
Motion passes.
C-3. Requests the Commission ;hold a Public Hearing to approve; the Second Reading and adoption
of Ordinance No. 696 to rezone a 296.96 acre parcel located on the east side of State Road 417 (aka
The GreeneWay) and on the north side of State Road 434. PURPOSE: to request the Commission
hold a Public Hearing to approve the Second Reading and adoption of Ordinance No. 696 to rezone
the 296.96 acre Battle Ridge Property from County zoning designation A-I "Agriculture' (1 DU per
acre) to the City's zoning designation ofR-IA "One-Family Dwelling District" (8.000 sq.ft.):
THIS ITEM TABLED UNTIL FEBRUARY 9, 1998.
C-4. Requests the Commission hold a second Public Hearing for adoption of a Development
Agreement, pertaining to a 296.96 acre parcel located on the east side of State Road 417 (aka The
GreeneWay) and on the north side of State Road 434. PURPOSE: to request the Commission to hold
a second Public Hearing and adopt a proposed Development Agreement relating to the 296.96 acre
Battle Ridge Property:
Attorney Guthrie said the City's obligation is to hold a public hearing and we are in that process now.
Charles Carrington, Community Development Director, stated for the record two changes were
discussed: page 8 - correction from 6 to 8 on item G-l(a); and on page 4, item C - a need to add the
word developable parcels (claritying language).
Mayor Partyka mentioned that public input was held at the beginning of item C-l and said there is
no other requests to speak and closed the Public Hearing.
Commissioner Gennel1 mentioned that there was another change to the agreement and that was to
do the archeological survey.
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Commissioner Martinez said to be clear on the fact that everything else that has been approved on
this project hinges on the approval of Ordinance 696 and if that fails then everything else goes.
Attorney Guthrie reiterated that if anyone of the four items fail they would all fall by the way side.
Motion was made by Commissioner Blake to adopt the development agreement pertaining to
the 296.96 acre parcel located on the east side of S.R 417 and on the north side of S.R 434 also
known as the Battle Ridge Properties subject to clarifying statements and adjustments made
this evening and subject to the adoption of Ord. 696 in the future. Seconded by Commissioner
Martinez. Discussion. Vote: Commissioner Gennell: aye; Commissioner Martinez: aye;
Commissioner Blake: aye; Commissioner Miller: aye; Commissioner McLeod: aye. Motion
passes.
Mayor Partyka mentioned the next topic concerning Battle Ridge will be February 9, 1998.
Community Development Department/Land Development Division
D. Requests Commission approve the First Reading of Ordinance No. 698, amending Section 2-62
of the Code of Ordinances updating the duration of lien time period. PURPOSE: to update Section
2-62 of the Code of Ordinances updating the duration of lien time period from five (5) years to
twenty (20) years in accordance with Florida Statutes. Chapter 162.10:
Motion was made by Commissioner Blake to approve the First Reading of Ord. 698 and to
read by title only. Seconded by Commissioner Martinez. Discussion. Vote: Commissioner
Martinez: aye; Commissioner Miller: aye; Commissioner Blake: aye; Commissioner Gennell:
aye; Commissioner McLeod: aye. Motion passes.
Attorney Guthrie read Ord. 698 by title only on First Reading.
Mayor Partyka asked if there was anyone present who wished to speak on this ordinance. No one
wished to speak on this ordinance.
Motion was made by Commissioner Blake to move Ord. 698 onto Second Reading. Seconded
by Commissioner Martinez. Discussion. Vote: Commissioner McLeod: aye; Commissioner
Miller: aye; Commissioner Gennell: aye; Commissioner Blake: aye; Commissioner Martinez:
aye. Motion passes.
Community Development Department/Land Development Division
E. Presents to the City Commission, for their action, the Planning and Zoning Board's
recommendation as it relates to the Preliminary Engineering/Final Subdivision Plan for that project
known as Wagner Station PUD. PURPOSE: to present to the City Commission, the Planning and
Zoning Board's recommendation as it relates to the Preliminary Engineering/Final Subdivision Plan
for that project known as Wagner Station PUD. This project is located on the north side of S.R. 434
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directly across from Winding Hollow Boulevard. The plans are to have three hundred ninety-six
(396) lots on one hundred thirty (130) acres. The property is zoned Planned Unit Development
(PUD):
Mr. Carrington stated that the plans have 396 lots on 130 acres, the property is zoned PUD and
stated the plans have been reviewed by Staff and the Commission is being asked to approve
preliminary engineering and final subdivision plan.
Motion was made by Commissioner Blake to extend the Commission Meeting past 11:00 p.m.
Seconded by Commissioner Martinez. Discussion. Vote: Commissioner Blake: aye;
Commissioner Martinez: aye; Commissioner Miller: nay; Commissioner McLeod: aye;
Commissioner Gennell: aye. Motion passes.
Donald McIntosh, of McIntosh and Associates, representing the applicant in their processing of the
preliminary subdivision plans for the Wagner Station PUD, which is hereafter to be known as Park
Stone.
Mr. McIntosh said the project was originally conceived in 1995 and has gone through a series of land
use changes and entitlements processing. On September 3, 1997, the Master Plan (as revised) for the
PUD was approved and the Master Plan embraced several of the adjustments to the plan that are
show graphically in several forms in the preliminary engineering plans before the Commission. The
project is approximately 170 acres, north ofS.R. 434 and south of Lake Jesup (across the street from
the Winding Hollow subdivision) it is centered on the intersection of Winding Hollow Boulevard and
S.R. 434, and stated that that intersection is scheduled to be a signalized intersection once the
warrants can be issued. The project master plan revision approved in September was a significant
overall reduction in density; the refinement to the plan involved a change of some of the properties
from some of the existing uses (actually a clarification and a minimization of some of the broader
approved uses - among them residential and commercial). A variance was applied by and approved
by the Commission on December 8, 1997 which afforded some of the specific archeiticual
components that are characteristic to this plan. Mr. McIntosh said the commercial configuration that
is shown on the Master Plan is centered around the intersection of Winding Hollow Boulevard and
S.R. 434 and is comprised of two parcels, one approximately 13 Y:z acres and the other 2 acres.
Mr. McIntosh said they added a number of significant architectural components and enhanced the
original conceived visioning concept for S.R. 434 adding items such as a combination of walls and
landscaping in front of the commercial parcels; walls and landscaping to isolate and secure and screen
residential areas from S.R. 434; we incorporated the Trail into the plan, and we hope to work with
Michael & Michael in greater detail as we work through the final engineering of the plan to make sure
that those elements that they think appropriate are dealt with in a final form.
Mr. McIntosh said they have dealt with an enhancement of the improvements in form of parks; they
have a swimming pool, tennis courts, volley ball courts, park area and an open complex in the north
end of the site.
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Mr. Mcintosh stated that the view from the intersection at S.R. 434 and Winding Hollow Boulevard
across two lakes (which is a tier in stormwater management facility) moves out through the cleared
area along the lake, so they maximized the view and tried to take into account as much of the natural
features of the property as possible; what it will deliver is an exclusive gated community entrance
around a pretty magnificent circle looking across lake features into Lake Jesup (in the back round)
which will have a treed sky line. It will be a unique and special park like setting for the amenities
within the development.
Mr. Mcintosh said the project itself has had all of the wetland lines staked and confirmed by agencies
and surveyed. A topographic survey has been done on the property and detailed preliminary
engineering and have dealt with a great number of small details (at the Staff level) and have done an
archeological study and that study has confirmed the absence of any finds or sites on the property.
Mr. McIntosh mentioned that the concept is in essence a blending of heavily landscaped commercial
components, screened on the north by a wall and landscaping; twenty foot landscape buffers on both
sides of an 80 foot boulevard and the reason for the landscape buffers adjacent to the boulevard and
the reason we were before the Commission in December to ask for a variance is so they can do
something extra ordinary with the landscaping and features to soften and make more wide that
appearance and blending of uses between the residential entry and commercial uses. Walls and
landscaping both on S.R. 434 at the east and west side of the property; a combination of columns and
stockade fences as well as landscaping along the perimeter buffer - all aimed at providing exclusive
perimeter and a very well landscaped perimeter. We have vacant land to the east of the property and
the School Board Bus Site to the west of the property, which is screened by pine trees and we
anticipate (in the long term) that a better screening needs to be provided there in case something
happens in addition to the School property.
Mr. McIntosh said they have identified the wetlands along the property and along Lake Jesup they
have placed the wetlands in the conservation area and no wetlands encroachment is proposed with
this development. The stormwater management systems that have been designed for this project will
meet or exceed the requirements of the Water Management District and stated that they have done
an extra special item and that is the retention ponds - they have integrated the commercial stormwater
management with the residential stormwater management so they will have minimal if any
stormwater management on the two commercial sites which will enable them to do a better job
landscaping. Mr. McIntosh mentioned that the landscaping will be a part of the construction plans.
Mr. McIntosh mentioned that they would appreciate a favorable consideration of this and said they
think they will provide the City a very high quality finished product.
Manager McLemore said it is important that the Commission understand that they cannot critique this
project rationally (in his point of view) by trying to accredit to a typical conventional subdivision; this
is not that, this project will out preform, based on already project out there, as models to look at, the
traditional subdivision in terms of appreciating its values and maintaining its overall ambiance, quality
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and its look. This is build on an model that has been proven, where performance has been
documented, it is not a traditional subdivision, it is not intended to be and it is a different paradigm
from that. Manager McLemore asked the Commission to be careful in looking at this and not try to
accredit to a traditional subdivision; this is a gated community where the emphasis is on quality,
control through very restricted covenants - where there is an overabundance in terms of its investment
in landscaping and amenities.
Commissioner Gennell asked if the ponds were existing. Mr. McIntosh stated that the ponds will be
created. Commissioner Gennell asked if she understood that there will be a wall across the front
around the commercial and then go to posts and shrubbery for the rest. Mr. McIntosh said they have
a six foot brick wall with landscaping, then it moves to an intermittent landscaping wrought iron sort
of a "flavor" that is "pretty high end" but not opaque; then columns and stockade fence with
landscaping around the perimeter (required by the Staff).
Commissioner Gennell asked the City Manger, at the earliest possible convenience to get the Arbor
Ordinance brought to the Commission for a workshop.
Commissioner McLeod said he has a problem with the developer waiting to build the wall until which
time the commercial parcel is developed; Commissioner McLeod then asked if they are going to put
the front wall on the highway side along with a stockade on the highway. Mr. McIntosh said yes, the
front wall with landscaping, so the frontage along the highway is going to be complete. Discussion.
Mr. McIntosh said, the buffer calls for a live oak canopy, one live oak every 50 feet, additional
deciduous canopy and it calls for a fairly thick sub-canopy, so it will be fairly layered. Commissioner
McLeod said that will fine once they grow, but when they are first planted, the homes will be there
before the shrubs will get any height, so therefore, you will see the homes (on the back side) coming
down S.R. 434 and asked ifthere would be a problem with putting in the wall earlier. Mr. McIntosh
said one of the concerns that we had is we have a high volume of up-front costs in order to put in all
of the landscaping and walls and guard gates and a number of different things that we are concerned
about adding the wall around the commercial on the front end and had hoped to assign that
responsibility to the commercial developer. Mr. McIntosh said he can't represent that the developer
will build the commercial area at any time specific, but are waiting for him (McIntosh) to get out of
the way with this so they can forward with their development program, and that is the second phase
of development.
Commissioner McLeod again asked if the developer will put the wall in on the first phase and assign
that over to the commercial developer. Discussion. Mr. McIntosh conferred with the developer and
then stated that prior to requesting any building permits in that phase they will have the wall up.
Commissioner Blake said he understands that this is suppose to be a different kind of project and said
he thinks he will see a "farm" of rooftops driving down S.R. 434; (especially what is suppose to be
our primary commercial corridor) of 50 foot lot residents "shoe-homed" in next to each other doesn't
sit well with him. Commissioner Blake said he has a tough time supporting those types of densities
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for our City. Commissioner Blake asked what type of low and high retail values are expected. Mr.
McIntosh stated for the homes - the low end, entry level, the sales prices will be in the high $120's
(at the opening), moving to the $160's/$170's then move upwards to $300/$350 thousand dollars.
Discussion.
Commissioner Blake asked about the large commercial parcel that remains. Mr. McIntosh said that
will be a food store (anchor) and retail (approx. 100,000 foot) with at least one out parcel and
integrated access management plan and landscape program; and stated that that commercial developer
has been made a party to the visioning program and landscape program and the City Manager has
explained to the commercial developer all that is expected from lighting, buffering, walls, etc.
Commissioner Blake asked about the smaller commercial parcel. Mr. McIntosh said those parcels
are restricted to neighborhood commercial uses, and was specifically in the Master Plan, there is no
plan for that at the present and said it will likely be a complement to a food store center type of use
and said the City's restrictions to neighborhood centers will apply.
Commissioner Blake again asked about the "farm" of rooftops along S.R. 434. Mr. McIntosh said
the most significant element to that will be with S.R. 434 and the trail adjacent and then the integrated
and somewhat elaborate landscape that is proposed, wall and trees, said he thinks the effect is going
to be (after 4 or 5 years of growth) a significant screen visually. Mr. McIntosh said they have made
every attempt to screen those homes and stated that what they are proposing exceeds what was talked
about in the visioning program for residential screening and stated that this was looked at with major
priority.
Commissioner Blake also mentioned one entrance for 396 lots. Mr. McIntosh stated that will be an
emergency access that was required by Staff.
Commissioner Miller said he also echos Commissioner Blake's comments regarding seeing roofs
driving down S.R. 434. Commissioner Miller also asked about the cost of the homes and retention
run-off into Lake Jesup. Discussion.
Commissioner Martinez asked if all questions from Staff were answers. Mr. McIntosh said yes.
Commissioner Martinez asked the buffer zone and the edge of the water have been addressed as
stated in the Compo Plan. Mr. McIntosh said yes.
Commissioner Gennell asked about the establishment of a reserve fund and the funding by the
developer toward that reserve fund from day one. Mr. McIntosh said he didn't know that was not
in the documents and said he will make sure it is there.
Commissioner Gennell stated she doesn't have any objection to the project as long as the ecological
corridor is protected through Staff agreements somehow to keep the fencing to a reasonable
minimum to make people safe and still maintain as wide of a corridor as we can, for the trails.
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Motion was made by Commissioner Martinez to approve the preliminary engineering/final
subdivision plan subject to the representations made and to have a reserve fund established
and the wall (as stated by Commissioner McLeod). Discussion. Vote: Commissioner Miller:
aye; Commissioner Blake: aye; Commissioner Martinez: aye; Commissioner Gennell: aye;
Commissioner McLeod: aye. Motion passes.
City Manager
F. Request Commission hold a Public Hearing and approve the First Reading of Ordinance No. 697
enacting a Floor Offset Pension Plan. THIS ITEM TABLED UNTIL THE FEBRUARY 9, 1998
MEETING.
City Manager
G. City Manager requesting the Mayor to appoint and the Commission to ratity a City Representative
and an Alternate for the South Seminole & North Orange County Wastewater Transmission
Authority. PURPOSE: for the Mayor to appoint and the Commission to ratity a City Representative
and an Alternate to represent the City on the South Seminole & North Orange County Wastewater
Transmission Authority:
Mayor Partyka appointed Don Gilmore, 803 Leopard Trail to the South Seminole & North Orange
County Wastewater Transmission Authority.
motion was made by Commissioner Blake to approve Don Gilmore to the South Seminole &
North Orange County Wastewater Transmission Authority. Seconded by Commissioner
Martinez. Discussion. Vote: Commissioner Gennell: aye; Commissioner Martinez: aye; C
Commissioner Blake: aye Commissioner Miller: aye; Commnssioner McLeod: aye. Motion
passes.
Mayor Partyka stated he is still looking for an alternate and said he hopefully will have a nomination
at the next meeting.
City Manager
H. City Manager requesting the Mayor and City Commission to appoint a seven member Districting
Commission. PURPOSE: for the Mayor and the City Commission to appoint a seven member
Districting Commission according to the requirements in Section 4.02 (b) of the City Charter:
Discussion on an appointee to the Districting Commission and the appointee being on another City
Board.
Attorney Guthrie will look at the Charter to determine is a Board member can serve on two
boards.
AT TIDS TIME, THE COMMISSION BROUGHT BACK ON THE TABLE THE CONSENT
AGENDA.
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Parks and Recreation Department
A. Requests the Commission accept the low bid of $11,700.00 from the Nidy Company of Sanford,
Florida for construction of basketball courts lighting at Torcaso Park and authorize the City Manager
to enter into contract for said services. PURPOSE: to request the Commission authorize the City
Manager to enter into contract for said services:
Commissioner Blake said he wants to be sure that we are getting the right type of lighting for this
park for the use that it is going to have and give the City the right value.
Manager McLemore said we had budgeted about $20,000 for lighting, the bid came in at $38,000 and
this bid is $11,700 for a $26,000 difference. What we did was initially we were specking out the
Musko Lighting System, and they have been extremely successful in selling their lighting systems and
are very inflexible in what they will do. Their lighting was going to be 50 feet high and this is where
they were running into trouble with the soils there and wind loads; by going to a different product
(using concrete poles) and going to 35 feet high and using a different light. These lights will definitely
do the job but is not a Musko system; the difference is you are dealing with a pole 15 feet shorter than
the Musko system.
Commissioner Blake said 15 feet difference in height is 3 V:z times the money. Manager McLemore
said the Musko System is the more elaborate, more costly system, but yes the difference in height has
a significant impact.
Manger McLemore said this system will have an automatic timing device with the lighting system and
does have a manual over-ride and it will be timed to shut off at a certain time of night.
Motion was made by Commissioner Blake to approve the Consent Agenda. Seconded by
Commissioner Gennell. Discussion. Vote: Commissioner Miller: aye; Commissioner McLeod:
aye; Commissioner Gennell: aye; Commissioner Martinez: aye; Commissioner Blake: aye.
Motion passes.
GOING BACK TO REGULAR AGENDA ITEM H.
Attorney Guthrie said quoted from a Section of the Charter where it states: "...electors chosen
shall not employed by the City in any other capacity." Discussion. It was the interpretation of
the Commission that a Board member cannot serve on two Boards.
Commissioner McLeod nominated Lee Fergeson; Commissioner Martinez nominated Moti Khemlani;
Commissioner Blake nominated Tom Waters; Commissioner Miller nominated Robert Wynn; Mayor
Partyka nominated Ronald Kanser and Cheryl Shanna and Commissioner Gennell nominated Doug
Reed.
Motion was made by Commissioner Martinez to approve the nominees to the Districting
Commission. Seconded by Commissioner Blake. .Discussion. Vote: Commissioner McLeod:
aye; Commissioner Gennell: aye; Commissioner Martinez: aye; Commissioner Blake: aye;
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Commissioner Miller: aye. Motion passes.
City Manager
I. City Manager requesting the Commission to consider information relative to the staffing needs of
the Police Department and to provide comments it deems appropriate. PURPOSE: to review the
staffing needs of the Police Department with the Commission and to review any input the
Commission deems appropriate:
Manager McLemore stated one of the discussions he had with Chief Kerr when he came on board
was for him to take time and get to know the City and the Department and then to come back to him
for the second budget review, his recommendations as to what he thought his Department needed in
terms of doing the job in according to a level of standards and excellence that he would demand and
desire to provide the community. In regard to the COPS Grant, the information that was brought to
us was relative to the "drop dead" date of January 31, 1998 and we were able (by virtue of the work
Chief Kerr had done already) to get everything finished to meet the January 31, 1998 deadline.
Manager McLemore said to point out to the Commission they have looked at a number of ways to
do this and one is data on tables 1,2 and 3 in the Commission's packet. Manger McLemore said
Table 1 gives a quick review of the suburban city mean and looking at the population average mean
(from the ICMA annual year book); and a model supplied by the National Association of Chiefs of
Police and using those together we came up with the number for uniformed officers at 53.
Manager McLemore said with a current staffing of 45, which indicated for additional staffing for 8
people. Manger McLemore said the Commission can approach this issue in a number of ways: (1)
go for the eight immediately (2) hire 4 now and possible 4 the next year or year after (3) or go with
2,2 and 2; mainly trying to show the budget impact of those. Obviously, the prime importance (in
terms of the budget impact) is year 4, where the 75% grant match is gone and you are dealing with
the full funding of these officers at that point in time.
Manger McLemore said he wanted to make sure that he let the Commission know what the budget
impact is and that was the purpose of the spread sheets and alternatives to review. Manager
McLemore said all he needs to know is the rate in which the Commission wants to accomplish this
objective. Discussion.
Chief Kerr gave a slide presentation to the Commission which was a summary of the information
provided to the Commission.
Chief Kerr said during calendar year 1997, they have endeavored to improve their service delivery
to the community by the proper deployment of the personnel that is currently on board. What they
did was to go to 12 hour shifts and were able to put more officers on the street to handle the calls.
Then reorganized the Department and restructured it and again placed a few more officers on the
street. The a community policing philosophy, to improve their relationship with the community. They
then developed permanent patrol beats so that the officers could become more familiar with their
geographic areas that they are assigned to and again to get to know the people better that they are
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policing.
Chief Kerr said generally to get an indication of how well your plan is working is you look towards
what the results have been; Chief Kerr stated that the feed back from the community has been very
positive; and quite often at Commission meetings and other meetings that he attends, he said he gets
direct feed back from the public and Chief Kerr said he gets a lot of phone calls and letters about the
service they are providing.
Chief Kerr said during this past year, they have experienced a 21 % decrease in serious crimes. Chief
Kerr said the productivity level of the officers has gone up about 29% in the area of criminal arrests.
This past year they have arrested 869 people as compared to 672 the year before. Officers have
responded to more calls for service and they removed more than double the number of driving under
the influence offenders than they did the year before - 69 as compared to 25.
Chief Kerr said to meet our current levels that we need to provide to our community we are
recommending the addition of 8 officers. What we are recommending is that four of those officers
be directed to the area of traffic enforcement and 4 directed towards community oriented policing
(specific areas where we have identified problems). The City has been growing rapidly in the last five
years and currently there is construction going on all over the City; there is a certain point that with
this growth, that our resources can only be stretched so far - of the 505 streets that we have in Winter
Springs, we have identified 94 of locations that we receive repeat requests for traffic enforcement.
(we do not consider any streets where we have not received at least three requests over the past 6
months)
Chief Kerr stated that it becomes difficult to achieve the results we want to achieve with the current
man power we have. We have arrived at this dilemma because of our growth, over the past five years
we have gone from 24,000+ in 1993 to a little over 28,000 at the beginning of this year - that is a
16.7% increase in population. Our calls for service has increased about 24%, they have gone from
just over 11,000 in 1993 to a little over 14,000 in 1997. During that same time frame we have added
two officers and have assigned those two very important position as school resource officers. Chief
Kerr said however, they need more operational level in the field. Chief Kerr said he thinks the
addition of 8 officers is reasonable at this time.
Commissioner Martinez suggested to the Commission that immediately or as soon as possible to get
at least four men for a traffic squad. Commissioner Martinez told Chief Kerr that he has done a great
job.
Commissioner Miller asked if eight officers would be enough. Chief Kerr said he believes it is at this
time.
Discussion on millage rate and revenues.
Commissioner McLeod asked the City Manager what is his recommendation to the Commission.
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Manager McLemore said his is two tiered, and said looking at is from a budget standpoint he would
recommend 4 and 4, to reduce the impact and spread it over a period of time, 4 now and 4 in year
three or maybe 2, 4, and 2 to level out the expenditures. Discussion. Manager McLemore said his
point is he doesn't want the Commission going into this believing that this is something that can be
consumed within the current revenue growth. Manager McLemore said he has already set his targets
for this year, keeping it very slim for increases in operating expenses and allowing for the capital
outlays that we need. These numbers exceed that target, however, if you use the year 2 (for example)
we are talking about a tenth ofa mil and willing to graduate that up if you take 8 officers and said that
he is not worried about the first year cost very much; understanding that this will increase every year.
Manager McLemore said from a policy point of view it is really what the Commission wants to "bite-
oft" because the need is there and said he would be more comfortable staging up, initially going with
4 then 4 the next year or the year after.
Commissioner McLeod asked Chief Kerr what was his evaluation. Chief Kerr said he has to look at
it from a safety point of view and looks at the City's traffic situation, not just on the main arteries but
the issues that happen on our side streets (Wade Street being one), also, in the area of directed
community policing. Chief Kerr said he was involved with the opening of a town center and said he
has seen the kind of things that impact a community and the businesses that want to move into a
community like our town center.
Chief Kerr said we are behind the curve right now, we have stretched our human resources in our
Department to the max and said he would hate to see them start going backwards with the influx of
population that they are seeing and go ahead so when we do have the additional people moving in
and the business that we are in the right place. Chief Kerr said his recommendation would be for 8
people right now, and said they can do the best they can with half of that and an addition later and
will direct those resources the best they can.
Commission McLeod asked would a 4,2 and 2 be really stretching. Chief Kerr said in his estimation
yes it would.
Commissioner Blake said something that hasn't been address in terms of our needs are a couple of
major events in our City and has given him great concern in term of our staffing levels. Not only the
construction on the roadways but the opening of the mall in Oviedo, and said there is no question that
the opening of the Mall will create significant traffic issues for our City and said many of those issues
will go through some of our neighborhoods and is something that really requires additional
enforcement. Commissioner Blake said the other thing is that we have the High School, the School
so far has only Freshman and Sophomores (who do not drive for the most part) but starting at the
end of July they will have drivers and the year after there will be more as then there will be Seniors.
Commissioner Blake said these are issues over and above just the standard growth part that we will
continue to see that causes him great concern in our staffing levels.
Commissioner Blake said he really thinks that we are behind the curve on this and is concerned about
that. Commissioner Blake stated that he has the information on the Grant and spoke with the person
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who administers the Grants for our area and said "unofficially" if the City asks for 8 officers, we will
get 8 officers, we won't know for another three months or so and stated that we will probably get
as many as we need, up to the 8 that we asked for in terms of funding from the Federal source.
Additionally, in April there will be another Grant available that will pay for equipment, and said that
is important, and stated that will take care of some of those big up front costs, if we apply for it.
Once being accepted into the UHP program (which is the program just applied for) it is an add on
to that item in order to get the equipment, which can be used for vehicles, radios, guns, vests,
uniforms, etc., all the costs that are not covered under the current salary and benefit type Grant and
said that we could utilize some of that money to decrease the up front cost. Discussion.
Motion was made by Commissioner Gennell to authorize hiring eight officers if we get the
grant from the COPS program. Seconded by Commissioner Martinez. Discussion on
motorcycles. Vote: Commissioner Miller: aye; Commissioner Blake: aye; Commissioner
Martinez: aye; Commissioner Gennell: aye; Commissioner McLeod: nay. Motion passes.
Manager McLemore said he will bring back to the Commission additional information on cars and
motorcycles.
Motion was made by Commissioner Martinez that if the COPS Grant monies don't come in,
that the City hire 4 officers immediately from whatever City funds that are available.
Seconded by Commissioner McLeod. Discussion. Commissioner McLeod asked how long will
it be before the City knows whether it got the Grant or not. Chief Kerr stated 2 to 6 months.
Vote: Commissioner Gennell: aye; Commissioner Martinez: aye; Commissioner Blake: aye;
Commissioner Miller: aye; Commissioner McLeod: aye. Motion passes.
M_otion was made by Commissioner Blake directing the City Manager and the Police Chief to
apply for the COPS Plus More Grant which is the equipment Grant as soon as it becomes
available in April to help defray as much as the cost as possible for these 8 or 4 officers.
Seconded by Commissioner Miller. Discussion. Vote: Commissioner McLeod: aye;
Commissioner Miller: aye; Commissioner Blake: aye; Commissioner Gennell: aye;
Commissioner Martinez: aye. Motion passes.
VI. REPORTS
A. City Attorney Frank Kruppenbacher
No Report.
Mayor Partyka asked when Frank Kruppenbacher is coming back. Attorney Guthrie stated that he
didn't know.
B. City Manager Ronald W. McLemore
Manager McLemore gave the Commission a preliminary draft of the City's Newsletter and asked the
Commission for their input withing the next day or two.
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C. Commission Seat III - Ed Martinez, Jr.
No Report.
D. Commission Seat IV - Cindy Gennell
Commissioner Gennell nominated Jim Degore for the vacant position on the Code Enforcement
Board. Seconded by Commissioner Martinez. Discussion. Vote: Commissioner McLeod: aye;
Commissioner Gennell: aye; Commissioner Martinez: aye; Commissioner Blake: aye; Commissioner
Miller: aye. Motion passes.
Commissioner Gennell mentioned the CALNO education in government in television channel, that
is a cooperative effort being promoted by the Council of Local Governments and said it was before
the Commission once before and it failed and said she was on the prevailing side and said she is
bringing it up again and said she thinks it bears the City supporting it. Commissioner Gennell said
it probably will not cost anything or hardly anything; getting in the this inter-local agreement costs
nothing, if we don't like the way it is then we opt out. Commissioner Gennell said she is asking the
Commission to approve the inter-local agreement to where we're going to join with some of the other
Cities, the County and the School Board and College to try and set up this contortion to run this
channel.
This will be all item on the agenda for the next Commission Meeting.
E. Commission Seat V - David McLeod
No Report.
F. Commission Seat I - Robert S. Miller
No Report.
G. Commission Seat II - Michael S. Blake
Commissioner Blake mentioned that he heard from two different citizens that they had called the
Police because someone was driving on the Bike Trail and each of the two occasions, the Dispatcher
didn't know where the bike trail was (one was off of Saranac and the other Oneida Court, both are
east of Vista willa) there were two separate instances. Chief Kerr stated he will make sure that the
Dispatcher know where the bike trail is located.
Commission Blake said with regard to the November 10, 1997 meeting, we had brought up and
directed the review of the Charter or to have on the agenda the issue that this Commission could
decide on how to go about addressing the weaknesses in our Charter an as of yet that hasn't come
up and asked when it will be before the Commission.
Manager McLemore stated that he and Staff are extremely busy for the next two months with the
Town Center. Manager McLemore said the Charter issue is an issue that will take a lot of time to
approach it fairly. Discussion. Manager McLemore stated he would prefer that the Commission not
address this issue until the Town Center is behind them. Manager McLemore said he doesn't mind
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outlining to the Commission what the alternative approaches. Manger McLemore said there is a
tremendous amount of work to do on the Beautification District and plus the intensive work to be
done on the Town Center and that will consume the next two or three months, it will be very
intensive period.
Mayor Partyka asked if the City Manager could just outline the work so the Commission will know
what the possibilities are. Manager McLemore said yes and said he will try to have that information
to the Commission at the next meeting but will not promise it for the next meeting. Tentatively for
the February 23, 1998 meeting.
Mayor Partyka said for a reminder to the Commission that they have voted to have a workshop to
come up with criteria for the City Manager evaluation and said that a workshop needs to be
scheduled. Discussion.
Commissioner Gennell suggested having a retreat sometime in March to discuss this and the City
Manager goals.
Manger McLemore suggested April because the Commission will be tied up with the Town Center
planning through March.
Commissioner Blake requested the last half of April.
Mayor Partyka said he will bring up dates at the next Commission meeting.
H. Mayor's Office - Paul P. Partyka
Mayor Partyka said he is going to ask the City Manager and will do everything possible, this is
ridiculous that meetings are until 2:00 a.m., the whole point of these Commission meetings is to get
public input. If we have four major issues like this to talk about, we ought to break them up if we
have to, this is crazy that we are talking and giving presentations at 12:00 or 1 :00 a.m., we can't think
straight and we have no input from the public. Ifwe have to talk about only one issue an night and
finish by 10:00 or whatever it is then that is what we need to do, this is no way to run a City, running
meetings at 1 or 2 in the morning and stated he will make every effort with the City Manger to see
what we can do, if we have controversial issues we'll cut it back to one only for the evening, but we
can not handle four major issues going past 2:00 a.m.
Re2ular Meetin2 City Commission
The meeting adjourned at 2:08 a.m.
~~~1I~~
~~ Hopkins,
City Clerk
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