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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1994 05 16 City Commission Special Minutes ... . I 93-94-16 . SPECIAL MEETING CITY <::xl'111 SS I ON MAY 16, 1994 The meeting was called to order at 2:05 p.m. by Mayor John F. Bush. Mayor John F. Bush, Present Deputy Mayor John V. Torcaso, Present Commissioner John Ferring, Present Commissioner John Langel lotti , Present Commissioner Cindy Gennell, Absent Commissioner David McLeod, Absent City Manager John Govoruhk, Present City Attorney Frank Kruppenbacher, Present . City Charter: Commissioner Ferring stated that he made a request for this particular meeting basically to review some, that he thinks important, areas regarding our City Charter. I have put together a list of what I feel should be covered, I prefaced this list with the following remarks: "I have requested this special meeting in order to clarify and solidify the working of our municipality and to have a better understanding of how we, as the elected governing body should work in corporation with each other. Other members may have different opinions and a meeting of this sort should clear the air. with your penmission I would like to review the areas of the City Charter that I think are relevant why I called this particular meeting. With the penmission of the Commission. Mayor Bush asked if there was any objection fram any of the Commissioners. There was no objections fram the Commissioners present. Commissioner Torcaso asked if he could give a little background on this, the Charter. The Mayor and the Commissioners agreed to have Commissioner Torcaso give a background on the City Charter. . Commissioner Torcaso stated that back in the 70's we had no City Manager, we had a Mayor and a City Planner, who was Richard Rozansky. We went out to the City for a vote on what kind of government they wanted; whether they wanted a Mayor fonm of government or City Administrator/City Manager fonm of government. City Manager fonm of government won by one vote strictly because the Mayor and his wife at that time were on vacation, and didn't get back in time to vote other wise we would have had a Mayor fonm of government. So we went ahead, I was on the Commission at that time, and we appointed a Charter Revision Commission consisting of 12 people; in fact our present City Attorney was one of those people on the Revision Committee and former Mayor Leanne Grove was on that Commission. We had 12 members on that Commission and we came up with the City Manager fonm of government. The vote was 3 to 2; 3 for City Manager and two for a City Administrator and then the vote was made unanimous for City Manager and seeing that we had Rozansky there, who came to us on the Cedar Program, had been with the City for a couple of years, we went ahead and appointed him City Manager. Through the revision Committee we came up the duties of the City Manager, and that is what we are going to talk about now. --- _._-_._._-_.._~.-.;.,~- . Special Meeting City Carrnission May 16, 1994 Page 2 93-94-16 . Carrnissioner Ferring said basically he will just add on to that, and he said that he thinks there was another discussion and another vote regarding the City Manager in this City going back several years ago where the Charter and Charter Carrnittee at that time said that if the City Manager was to be dismissed by this Carrnission that it would only require a 3 to 2 vote; that vote went before the residents and the voting members of this City and it was unanimously, overwhelming, rejected. They were happy with City Manager government in other words and since that particular last vote there has been no change in the way this City government operates. So, with the permission of this Carrnission, I'm very happy to see a lot of our concerned citizens here today because I think it's healthy for them to see what this government is about and I hope that you are also equally concerned about and were here at the following meeting last week. We are going to review the sections of the City Charter, number one: Article 3 - The Powers of the City - and if you bare with me, I will try to do this as easily as I possibly can. Section 3.1 the Articles and Powers of the City, this is a general statement regarding the powers of the City "The City shall have all powers possible for a City to have under the constitution and laws of this State as fully and carpletely as though they were specified em.merated in this Charter". Which means, I think and our Attorney can correct me on anything that I may not be saying correctly, that is a pretty broad statement as far as how this City operates. I am going to go to Section 4.05 which delineates and depicts the duties of individuals that are elected in this City. The Section 4.05 deals with the Mayor and I will read "The Mayor shall act and serve as chairman of the City Carrnission, shall be the Chief executive officer of the City, shall preside at its meetings, shall be recognized as head of the City government for all ceremonial purposes and be the governor for the purposes of military law. Additionally, the Mayor shall have the responsibility of the administrative duties of the City Manager in the event the City Carrnission does not appoint a City Manager, unless otherwise provided in this Charter........ Carrnissioner Ferring said that section goes on to discuss the Deputy Mayor, the Deputy Mayor will be elected and act in the Mayor's absence. It further goes on to state......The Mayor shall not vote except in case of a tie vote of the Carrnission. Within ten (10) days after the adoption of any ordinance by the City Carrnission, the Mayor shall have the power to veto said ordinance and return it to the Carrnission at the next regular meeting with a written message. It shall require four-fifths (4/5) vote of the City Carrnission to pass the ordinance after the Mayor's veto." Carrnissioner Ferring said now that is the full responsibility of the Mayor's office. Carrnissioner Ferring asked the City Attorney if there was any question as to what the responsibility of the Mayor's Office are. Attorney Kruppenbacher stated not to him, but he thinks Carrnissioner Ferring needs to read 4.06 in concert with 4.05, because 4.06 basically if you read 4.06 it provides that all powers of this City lay with the City Carrnission, except as other wise provided, so to the extent something is not specifically stated in 4.05 for the Mayor then the full Carrnission has that power. . . , . . . Special Meeting City Cannission May 16, 1994 Page 3 93-94-16 Cannissioner Ferring read Section 4.06 - General Powers and Duties: "All powers of the City shall be vested in the City Cannission, except as otherwise provided by law or this Charter, and the Cannission shall provide for the exercise thereof and for the perfonmance of all duties and obligations irrposed on the City by law." Cannissioner Ferring said that is a very irrportant point that he is trying to bring out, and you can elaborate on that Mr. Kruppenbacher, you don't have to do it right now, if you want to make notes as I go along for expeditious purposes. I now 90 to Section 4.08 which covers Forfeitures of office; and filling of vacancies. "(a) Vacancies - The office of the Cannissioner or mayor shall become vacant upon his death, resignation, removal from office in any manner authorized by law or forfeiture of his office. (b) Forfeiture of Office - A commissioner or mayor shall forfeit his office if he.... and I need a correction on there because "he" does that include anybody on this Cannission? Attorney Kruppenbacher stated to the Mayor and Cannissioner Ferring "he" in the context of this Charter covers "she" so it would cover as presently configured both the male and female members of the City Commission, Commissioner Ferring said thank you. Cannissioner Ferring went on .."(1) Lacks at any time during his tenm of office any qualifications prescribed by this Charter or by law; or (2) Violates any express prohibition of the Charter; or 93) Is convicted of a felony; or (4) Fails to attend three (3) consecutive regular meetings of the Cannission without being duly excused by the Cannission.... Commissioner Ferring said on to 4.09 Judge of Qualifications - "The Cannission shall be the judge of the election and qualifications of its members and of the grounds of forfeiture of their office and for that purpose shall have power to subpoena witnesses, administer oaths and require production of evidence..... 4.10 - City Clerk - The mayor shall appoint an officer of the City who shall have the title of City Clerk and who shall be approved by the City Cannission. The City Clerk shall give notice of Cannission meetings to its members and the public, keep the journal of its proceedings and perfonm such other duties as are assigned to him by this Charter or by the Cannission", he reiterated and said or the Commission. Section 4.13. Procedure - (a) Meetings - The Commission shall meet regularly at least once every month as such times and places as the Commission may prescribe by rule. Special meetings shall be held on the call of the Mayor or three (3) or more members and whenever practicable, upon no less then twelve (12) hours notice to each member. All meetings shall be public. (b) Rules and Journal - The Cannission shall detenmine its own rules and order of business and shall provide for keeping a journal of its proceedings. This journal shall be a public record. (c) Voting voting, except on procedural matters, shall be by roll call and the ayes and nays shall b recorded in the journal. Three (3) members of the commission shall constitute a quorum but a smaller number may compel the attendance of absent members in the manner and subject to the penalties prescribed by the rules of the commission. No action of the Commission shall be valid or binding unless adopted by the affirmative vote of three (3) or more members of the . 93-94-16 Special Meeting City Coomission May 16, 1994 Page 4 . . " C001TI1SSlon. . Coomissioner Ferring said we now go to Article 5 - City Manager. Section 5.01 - Appointment; qualifications, callJensation lithe Coomission may appoint a City Manager for an indefinite term and fix his callJensation..... Section 5.02 Ranoval - "The Coomission may ranove the City Manager by rrotion of the City Coomission requiring four (4) affirmative votes; the City Manager shall receive thirty (30) days' severance pay in all such cases. Coomissioner Ferring said he now wants to get to Section 5.03 because he thinks it is very important - Section 5.03 - Powers and duties of the City Manager _" The City Manager shall be the chief adninistrative office of the City. He shall be responsible to the Coomission for the adninistration of all City affairs placed in his charge by or under this Charter. he shall have the following powers and duties: (1) He shall appoint and when he deems it necessary for the good of the service, suspend or ranove all City employees and appoint adninistrative officers provided for, by or under this Charter except as otherwise provided by law, this Charter except as otherwise provided by law, this Charter or personnel rules adopted pursuant to this Charter. He may authorize any adninistrative officer who is subject to his direction and supervision to exercise these powers with respect to subordinates in that officer's department, office or agency. (2) He shall direct and supervise the adninistration of all departments, officers and agencies of the Cit except as otherwise provided by this Charter of by law. (3) He shall attend all Coomission meetings and shall have the right to take part in discussions but may not vote. (4) He shall see that all laws, provisions of the Charter and acts of the Coomission subject to his direction and supervision are faithfully executed. (5) He shall prepare and submit the annual budget and capital program to the Coomission. (6) he shall submit to the Coomission and make available to the Public a callJlete report on the finances and adninistrative activities of the Cit at the end of each fiscal year. (7) He shall make such other reports as the Coomission may require concerning the operations of City departments, officers and agencies subject to his direction and supervision. (8) He shall keep the Coomission fully advised as to the financial condition and future needs of the City and make such recannendations to the Coomission concerning the affairs of the City as he deems desirable. (9) He shall perform such other duties as are specified in this Charter or may be required by the Coomission." Section 5.04 Acting City Manager" By letter filed with the Coomission, the Manager shall designate, subject to approval by the Coomission, a qualified City Officer to exercise the powers and perform the duties of Manager during his temporary absence or disability. During such absence or disability the Coomission may revoke such designation at any time and appoint another officer of the City to serve until the Manager shall return or his disability shall cease." . Coomissioner Ferring mentioned that he is trying to get through this as fast as possible. Article VI- Adninistrative Departments. Section 6.01 - Power . 93-94-16. Special Meeting City Cammission May 16, 1994 Page 5 of the Cammission to establish "The coomission may establish City departments, officers or agencies in addition to those created by this Charter and may prescribe the functions of all departments and agencies. Section 6.02 - City Attorney - "There shall be a City Attorney appointed by the Mayor and approved by the City Cammission, who shall represent the City in all legal proceedings and shall perfonm all other duties assigned to him by the City Cammission." . Cammissioner Ferring stated now these are the articles that he has gone through which he feels we need to impart to same or our newer members who possibly may have overlooked same of these and I want to ask the City Attorney in respect to these vacancies and forfeitures of offices, not only does it affect the elected officials in the City, how does it affect the employees of this City. Attorney Kruppenbacher said two issues Cammissioner Ferring, one is the forfeiture of office of section 4.08 governs the manner and procedures by which an elected official in this City, meaning one of the members of the Cammission including the Mayor, would under section b, if you notice the word shall is used, you would automatically forfeit your office if you were convicted of a felony or if one of these matters took place under this section. This section does not impact the employees, your employees are impacted by same other section you covered with me. If you want me to go into that I 'll...Cammissioner Ferring said he would like him to, rather than stop after each section, if you made notes than you can possibly help me out, maybe I,.... Attorney Kruppenbacher said if he could Cammissioner he'll go through it, you are kind enough to let me get prepared for this Section 4.06 on General powers and duties - for the benefit of the Cammission, that is a standard "catch all" section placed in roost Charters to assure that as the Constitution is changed or updated or as the Legislature both Federal or State enact new laws you continue to have all that authority and you don't have to keep changing your charter to pick up new rights and benefits and no lawyer can argue that you don't have it, so that is just a pure legal "catch all" to make sure you have total power to act. On the forfeitures and vacancies, as I said earlier this governs every Cammissioner, it governs Cammissioner McLeod who was not elected but appointed, once you sit in that seat you are governed by this from the Mayor on through the Cammissioners; it spells out very succinctly how you will loose your office should you engage in one of these acts, it provides that the Cammission can establish a procedure in 4.09 for detenmining whether or not someone is qualified to stay a Cammissioner and basically evaluate that. Section 4.13 and I may be, Cammissioner Ferring, jumping ahead to item 2 on your agenda is that all right with you as I talk through this. Commissioner Ferring said sure. Attorney Kruppenbacher went on to say, talking about meetings we have historically had an understanding within the City as follows for meetings: either the Mayor or the Coomissioners have the full authority, 3 members of the Coomission, to call a special meeting. A workshop has only been called over time by the Coomission, by a member of . . Special Meeting City Ccmnission May 16, 1994 Page 6 - AMENDED . the Ccmnission asking for the workshop or the mayor asking for the workshop, a member of the public asking for a workshop, someone asking for a workshop but it happens at a regular meeting and then the Ccmnission as a body decides whether or not they want a workshop. We have never had a workshop scheduled just on a Mayor saying we are having a workshop today. It has been with the body agreeing that we could do it, now the Mayor has the full authority to say we are having a special meeting on "X" date, to have at that date, but as a courtesy and Mayor I think at the last meeting you identified this as how you would operate, that this Ccmnission would only operate through at it's regular scheduled meeting, announcing that there was a need either for a special meeting or a workshop and the Ccmnission agreeing that there would then be a meeting and the scheduling of that, the qualification to that would be if there was an emergency the Mayor could call a special meeting or 3 Ccmnissioners. That's what I understand that you all chose as a group to follow as a guideline, and tell me if I'm wrong cause that is what I understand, and that is within the parameters of this procedure. . Attorney Kruppenbacher said on Powers and Duties of the City Manager - the City Manager directs and supervises all of the departments, officers and agencies of the City. Except as provided by the Charter or by Law. There are two particular Charter officers or administrative officers, or whatever you want to call it, that report directly to you (Mayor and Commission) and that is the City Clerk and the City Attorney. Let me talk a little bit about this because I've seen it happen before; you act as a group and with all respect to each one of you, none of you can direct the Manager, the City Attorney or the City Clerk to take any formal action in our respective positions, individually, other than your doing it as a group. Clearly there is discretion in that, if the Mayor or a Ccmnissioner calls me or the City Manager and you have an issue or a problem and it's normally within our course to deal with those things, but where the problem inherently develops is when you all take a position as a body that you don't want to go down road "A" lets say, it's not a policy that you are interested in, then at that point I think, you do violate this Charter to the extent either one of you independently attempt to direct a city department or a member of that department to foster that position, that is not within your authority and the only way to resolve that and to resolve the confusion, and you are a young Ccmnission in terms that you have three new members, same of you have been here a long time but you really ought to collectively agree that to the extent you want to deal with your City employees you will touch base with your City Manager, and John Govoruhk as your City Manager ought to came up with a policy that he would like to operate in that lets you accomplish your goals as elected officials and lets him accomplish his responsibilities as supervising the department, but it creates a major problem if this Ccmnission's position, if you have a commissioner who goes to a particular . Special Meeting City Camlission May 16, 1994 Page 6 93-94-16 . the Camlission asking for the workshop or the mayor asking for the workshop, a member of the public asking for a workshop, someone asking for a workshop but it happens at a regular meeting and then the Camlission as a body decides whether or not they want a workshop. We have never had a workshop scheduled just on a Mayor saying we are having a workshop today. It has been with the body agreeing that we could do it, now the Mayor has the full authority to say we are having a special meeting on "X" date, to have at that date, but as a courtesy and Mayor I think at the last meeting you identified this as how you would operate, that this Camlission would only operate through at it's regular scheduled meeting, announcing that there was a need either for a special meeting or a workshop and the Camlission agreeing that there would then be a meeting and the scheduling of that, the qualification to that would be if there was an emergency the Mayor could call a special meeting or 3 Camlissioners. That's what I understand that you all chose as a group to follow as a guideline, and tell me if I'm wrong cause that is what I understand, and that is within the parameters of this procedure. . Attorney Kruppenbacher said on Powers and Duties of the City Manager - the City Manager directs and supervises all of the departments, officers and agencies of the City. Except as provided by the Charter or by Law. There are two particular Charter officers or administrative officers, or whatever you want to call it, that report directly to you (Mayor and Camlission) and that is the City Clerk and the City Attorney. Let me talk a little bit about this because I've seen it happen before; you act as a group and with all respect to each one of you, none of you can direct the Manager, the City Attorney or the City Clerk to take any formal action in our respective positions, individually, other than your doing it as a group. Clearly there is discretion in that, if the Mayor or a Camlissioner calls me or the City Manager and you have an issue or a problem and it's normally within our course to deal with those things, but where the problem inherently develops is when you all take a position as a body that you don't want to go down road "A" lets say, it's not a policy that you are interested in, then at that point I think, you do violate this Charter to the extent either one of you independently attempt to direct a city department or a member of that department to foster that position, that is not within your authority and the only way to resolve that and to resolve the confusion, and you are a young Camlission in terms that you have two new members, same of you have been here a long time but you really ought to collectively agree that to the extent you want to deal with your City employees you will touch base with your City Manager, and John Govoruhk as your City Manager ought to came up with a policy that he would like to operate in that lets you accomplish your goals as elected officials and lets him accomplish his responsibilities as supervising the department, but it creates a major problem if this Camlission's position, if you have a commissioner who goes to a particular . Special Meeting City Cam1ission May 16, 1994 Page 7 93-94-16 department and says I want you to do "X,Y,Z" I can tell you when you are an employee and a Cam1issioner walks in, it is different than anyone else walking into the room, and I've heard elected officials say well that employee ought to say I can't deal with you, well that's a lot easier said than done when you are an employee trying to raise a family and you have a powerful person who is viewed as an elected official standing there, and I think you all need to decide what the rules are going to be. I think this Charter says it clearly that whoever sits in that seat, the City Manager, in this case John Govoruhk, administers the departments and over sees the employees and you ought to agree to coordinate with him your involving or dealing one on one with any employee of the City. . Mayor Bush said the way you are explaining this is as if we are not talking about the City Manager we are talking about the people who work for the City Manager, does it apply to the City Manager as well. Attorney Kruppenbacher said no, you all have the right to walk in and talk with the City Manager, now I advised John if.. ...Mayor Bush said the question is can a single Cam1issioner member walk in and tell the City Manager to do something without the consent of the entire Cam1ission. Attorney Kruppenbacher said no....Mayor Bush said so it really is the same in a way,....Attorney Kruppenbacher said clearly in the scheme in our every day lives there is a give and take there, an elected official can walk into the City Manager and say we have a problem over on Seneca that you need to be aware of and take care of, that's different than walking in and saying to the City Manager that I (a member of the Cam1ission) want to embark on developing the water front along Lake Jesup, go get a study done, it's hard to clarify sometime, but no individual Cam1issioner has the right to walk in and direct him nor does the Mayor, to take any particular action, you act as a group, now that is different than your nonmal give and take where you talk to him about policies that you have established and say I'm concerned that the Fire Department is not going up quick enough, can you look into it, am I ....Cam1issioner Ferring said can, the same principal, I mean can a request I mean if any of these Cam1issioners can go in and request penmission from the City Manager and not demand from the City Manager whatever his problem is, if he has a problem with Seneca, or a problem with Tuscawilla Road widening,or a problem with anything that he would like or with for instance we had a problem regarding the back-flow devices, and to get it cleared up, I requested the City Manager whether or not I could talk with the utility Director, is that ok is that proper, as long as it's cleared through the City Manager's office. Attorney Kruppenbacher said that is perfectly acceptable and he may came up with a concept that says (can't understand) and not even clearing it with him but he wants you to operate within these guidelines. The City Manager and I haven't had a chance to talk about how he would like you to operate all I'm telling you is as this charter is configured no elected official in this City can direct an employee of this City to take or do any particular action other than through the Manager and . . : . Special Meeting City Coomission May 16, 1994 Page 8 93-94-16 it particularly creates a problem if you as a body decide by a majority vote that you are not interested in doing something, and if one elected official decides they still want to pursue that, if he is smart as the Manager reporting to you as bosses he is going to respectfully say to that Manager my Coomission has told me that is not something they want our resources being directed to and I'm not going to allow our Staff to proceed in that fashion because you as a body has said this is the policy we want. . Mayor Bush said that he certainly agrees with the business about speaking to the Staff I think that really would be inappropriate to bypass John Govoruhk on any issue like that, but you use the analogy of an elected official walking to a Staff member and asking for something and how "threatening" that might be, wouldn't the same thing be true with dealing with the City Manager if a single Coomissioner walked in and demanded something, how can the Manager in good contest say no when four our of five votes he keeps his job, isn't that almost the same thing. Attorney Kruppenbacher said it is but that comes with that seat, but that's where I think you need to spell out in some rules, so that the Manager can look at your elected officials and say these are the rules that the Coomission that you are a part of have adopted for the way in which we are going to conduct business and I 'm not authorized to do it without my Coomission directing me to do it. Coomissioner Ferring said conversely if a member of the City Manager's Staff is approached and without the knowledge of anybody including the City Manager proceeds to do whatever is being asked of him, what does that constitute. Attorney Kruppenbacher said it would constitute a violation of this Charter, it would also, I think one of the things I talked to the Manager about is once you clarify the rules by which you want to operate, he will need to communicate them to his employees on how he expects them to handle themselves and if you decide if this is how you are going to operate, then he needs to communicate that to his employees and if they violate the rules then what he as Manager decides is the appropriate discipline will be the discipline. . Coomissioner Langellotti said to the City Attorney and his fellow members of his Coomission, when he first sat here, I had gotten a crash course on learning about this job and one of the first lessons was that the City Staff and the Department Heads would not tell me anything. It had to come through the City Manager at the time I really took offense to that because we were in the process of the Super Park and any time I wanted information it was withheld, but I slowly learned that it was the right way to go and I think that everybody should have had that course. That the City Manager runs this City, we don't run this City. Attorney Kruppenbacher said that same concept holds true for my particular and Mary Norton's office in that we act at your direction as a group clearly on a day to day basis, we work with the City Manager and the Manager has multitudes of issues that have to be dealt with and requests made, but no one Coomissioner ( I use Coomissioner covering all . Special Meeting City Carrnission May 16, 1994 Page 9 93-94-16 of you including the Mayor's office) has the authority to direct Mary Norton or me to do "X, Y ,2" and it's the responsibil ity of the City Manager and the City Attorney and the City Clerk to ina diplomatic way wrestle with that and fortunately I would say that at least with regard to my office you have all been gracious enough never to put me in that situation where the Carrnission was here and you were saying I want to go in direction "X" and forcing it, I have never heard of a problem with Mary and these issues.... Mayor Bush said the Deputy City Clerk also has some responsibilities along that line to doesn't she in dealing with the Carrnission as well as Mary Norton. Attorney Kruppenbacher said yes, I can look at her particular position, but I really focused on the City Clerk. Mayor Bush said he thinks that the City Manager spelled that out in one of the first meetings as I recall back in December. . Carrnissioner Ferring asked the Attorney if that was all. Kruppenbacher said that he thinks he covered everything. Attorney Carrnissioner Ferring said to the Mayor, the only reason why he felt that it was important that we review these sections of the Charter and I know that there was no premeditated effort on your part to do something that you thought was improper. By no means am I trying to criticize what you did as far as scheduling a workshop meeting when the indications were, as least on my part and I would imagine on other members of this Carrnission part that they were unavailable due to a prior commitment. It became more evident when I had to defend myself to the media for not being at that meeting and I never before seen no matter how nicely it was put, that three members of this Carrnission were not at the meeting that you called, it justified it but still 3 members of this Commission were named for not attending that meeting. I received a couple of calls saying how come I wasn't there, I don't think I have to justify and to the reporter I spoke to I didn't have to justify why I wasn't there because I didn't have due notice and I had something very important personally to do. I know you didn't do it premeditatedly and I think a meeting of this sort will get these things out in the air. . Mayor Bush said Mr. Ferring let me respond to that because I realize the sensitivity of the issue. When I called the meeting I did it because the 434 issue I guess, Frank, what defines and emergency, I guess is up for all kinds of definitions; but we had one Carrnissioner who isn't here today who had asked for this meeting on two separate occasions. It was my feeling that it was going to be a cold day before she was going to get three people to agree to that yet I thought it was something that needed to be called. She asked me to do it not on any particular day or time and so I did. The date and time were really negotiable in all respects and had anyone of the three had asked me reschedule because quite frankly I could have made it at almost any time but nobody called me and nobody passed through the City . Special Meeting City Ccmnission May 16, 1994 Page 10 93-94-16 Clerk any alternate dates can we do it, put it off on Wednesday, do it on Thursday, or whatever. I would have changed it Mr. Ferring it is just that simple, I picked 5:00 on Wednesday kind of out of the clear air because I didn't have anything going that night.....Ccmnissioner Ferring said that he didn't want to get into this as far as the meeting....Mayor Bush said that he just wanted to explain that because it doesn't do us any good to have meetings when there is not as many people here as possible. The infonmation I did check with the City Manager to find out if the City Staff was prepared to make a presentation and he informed me that they were, had he said no that they were not ready I would of just had to tell Ccmnissioner Genne11 that there was no sense in having the meeting because of the reason that we put it off the first time. So anyway that is the reason it happened the way it did and I am sorry there were conflicts and I would have certainly tried to move the meeting to when more people could have made it had I been made aware of it, All I was told was they weren't going to be here and that came very late in the game, almost too late to reschedule it as a matter of fact. . Ccmnissioner Lange110tti said that he wants to take offence to the phone calls that he received, remarks made by certain individuals that I stayed away purposely because I'm in total disagreement with Ccmnissioner Genne11 and that is far from the truth, I had personal things to do that afternoon and I told the person that called me and they claim that they had heard it from other people. I only wish that Ccmnissioner Genne11 were here today, but I will pass it on to her at our next meeting, she seems to think that I as one person is totally against her in anything she brings up and that is totally false, she doesn't do her homework but I'll take that up with her. But I don't want to stand accused of staying away purposely. Mayor Bush said that he thinks that he probably have interpreted that somewhat correctly, I think that was the general impression, I tried to say and I did say it twice at least, that was not the case as far as I knew that there was no indication that three of you gentlemen in any way didn't attend other than the reasons that Mr. Ferring just gave. I made it clear I think at that time that I personally felt then and I still do feel this way that you all are just as concerned about this as anybody else on the Ccmnission and that the fact that you were not here there isn't a valued judgement of some kind and that's where I left it and that's why I said it twice because I wanted that made clear to the people that were here as well as the other Ccmnissioners. . Ccmnissioner Ferring said that he has an exception to the word that you said and I didn't want to get into this because it's further down on the agenda as far as the workshop is concerned but that you had a feeling that it would be a cold day before this Ccmnission agreed to a workshop meeting regarding the 434 corridor, for your information the three Ccmnissioners that are up here have spent years working tremendously hard to try and bring about in this City proper visioning, proper growth buy virtue of working continuously . Special Meeting City Ccmnission May 16, 1994 Page 11 93-94-16 . as members of the Planning and Zoning Board and as members of this City Ccmnission, sometimes into the wee hours of the morning, going through the Comprehensive Plan, discussion the Land Development Regulations that have to be put in place by the Law, as members of the Planning and Zoning Board all of these Ccmnissioners up here had input from the entire City of Winter Springs, they invited all of the homeowners associations, all of the citizens and all of the developers to give their input on how this Comprehensive Plan should come about and how these Land Development Regulations were to be prepared. In the interim period there was some lack of Staff to handle these issues and this Ccmnission as a body and sometimes maybe prematurely pressed the City Manager to bring on the professional people to help us along in the growth of this City and especially the corridor of 434. We did not just come and do this from the time we took office, we have been working on it, I would say since 1989 or 1990, so to make a statement that it would be a cold day before this Ccmnission would want to meet regarding the growth of our corridor on 434 is unjustly fair and uncalled for. There are two professionals that are in the audience with us this afternoon, I would like to ask either one of these professionals were they concerned to the point that an emergency meeting had to be called within just 3 or 4 days notice, did you present to somebody that there was an emergency regarding this McDonald's situation, Mr. Beherns? . Bruce Beherns, General Services Director, stated no, we were given notice of the meeting of the meeting Friday afternoon and told to be prepared. Ccmnissioner Ferring asked Beherns if they were prepared at that time. Beherns said they were not prepared on Friday afternoon no sir, not to give the talk that we gave Wednesday night, I worked all weekend and Mr. Gosline and I worked those two days prior. Ccmnissioner Ferring said you had to work the whole weekend to put together something that you hadn't even requested. Beherns stated that he didn't request it, I was told that there was a meeting Friday afternoon, my boss told me Friday afternoon that there was going to be a meeting, I was given an agenda Friday afternoon by Mr. Govoruhk for the meeting Wednesday night and I was told to be prepared. Ccmnissioner Ferring said that he likes his opinion because he thinks that in attendance of some of these Ccmnission meetings I think you have felt, at least my feelings, on how I felt about you coming on board and defending your position to give you enough time to properly vision what has to be done on this corridor and that I didn't feel that any exertion or pressure by anybody individually should be put on you unless there was an extreme emergency that couldn't wait, did I not express my opinion to you. Beherns said that is correct. Ccmnissioner Ferring asked Beherns if he has ever interfered with Beherns vision - Beherns stated no. Ccmnissioner Ferring asked Carl Gosline, Ccmnunity Development Coordinator, if he has ever interfered with his vision as far as the corridor is concerned. Gosline stated no. Ccmnissioner Ferring said he is just trying to find out where all this emergency came from, we act as a body, has any individual . Special Meeting City Conmission May 16, 1994 Page 12 93-94-16 . Conmissioner came to you and exerted any pressure to you. Beherns stated no sir. Conmissioner Ferring asked if Beherns has discussed this with any Conmissioner regarding the 434 corridor. Beherns said that he thinks Conmissioner Genne11 has mentioned, when I first came on board Conmissioner Torcaso took me to lunch at the Charrber and he may have mentioned it, I don't have a specific remembrance of any feeling by any Conmissioner that we had an emergency; we do however as the Mayor has mentioned, we do have a site plan for McDonald's in review as we speak. Conmissioner Ferring asked if Mr. Schrimsher give Beherns any indication that he was not going to be corporative regarding the establishment of McDonald's. Beherns stated no sir, it is just the opposite. Conmissioner Ferring said knowing Mr. Schrimsher and knowing the design standards that he does, we have gone through it with him before and he is probably stricter than this City is as far as design criteria. Beherns said yes sir, we called him in and that was our impression also. Conmissioner Ferring said so therefore, what I'm trying to ascertain that we really didn't have an emergency in your eyes. Beherns said that he wouldn't say it's an emergency but he thinks it's certainly an item that we need to address as soon as possible. Conmissioner Ferring said did we not ask you to address this item and give you time to put your plans in place and then request through your boss to came before us. Beherns said yes sir, I remember that conversation where you all requested.....Conmissioner Ferring said didn't we ask you please, we love you, come on board, we love you, we've been waiting for you for all this time, please show us your vision, that's what we're paying a professional planner and an assistant to the City Manger almost a hundred thousand dollars because we wanted your professional input to work along with all the rest of the people in this City. Beherns said that is correct. Mayor Bush told Beherns that he did a great job. . Conmissioner Ferring said he understands that it was a very nice presentation, too bad I wasn't here, I would have liked to hear it and hopefully we will be able to do it again so the rest of the Conmission will be able to hear it. There is another question I have Mr. Mayor regarding a letter that was written to you my Marvin Couch and this letter was in reference to an article addressed to Conmissioner Gennel1 that was subsequently printed in the Tuscawilla Today Newsletter and in that newsletter article Rep. Couch is on record as saying that he feels that she should be the one that should be designated as the representative of the Lake Jesup Bill, or whatever it was, the committee. Subsequently after it was published in the Tuscawil1a Today Newsletter, I was approached as to whether or not he was interfering with City policy in the City of Winter Springs. I'll read the letter because it is very interesting, this letter is dated May 5th and it was not received in this City until the 9th of May which is the night we had our regular Conmission meeting, it said "Dear Mayor Bush, I am writing to clarify a concern that has been brought to my attention regarding the formation of the Friends of Lake Jesup Task Force. I feel it is necessary to forward my comment through your office so as to be . Special Meeting City Carmission May 16, 1994 Page 13 93-94-16 . clear to my intent". Carmissioner Ferring said he then goes on to say "that it was his understanding that he only meant to write Carmissioner Gennell a letter thanking her for her attendance and support of the Bill, but he also says that he "...in regards to whether I am expecting City Carmissioners to put Carmissioner Gennell on the Board I have no involvement in that process, I would hope that whomever who is selected as an alternate will come with an open mind and a willingness to work.", and that is fine but it goes on to say something very curious, and I'm curious about it, it said "....it is my understanding that there is a proposed meeting regarding the south side of Lake Jesup, I would welcome the opportunity to come before the Board and any workshops dealing with Lake Jesup, land surrounding and any proposed corridors.." Carmissioner Ferring said now here is Rep. Marvin Couch on the 5th of May saying it is his understanding there is a proposed meeting regarding the south side of Lake Jesup, I would like to know, when we just got this thing on the 9th and I didn't get it until the meeting of the 9th, there had already been a workshop called with the agenda and the agenda read: the workshop meeting was called on the 6th of May, this letter was received on the 9th, roll call special workshop meeting, item #3 Carmissioner to meet with Carmunity Development Director, Carmerce & Industry Board, Planning and Zoning Board and Beautification of Winter Springs Board and Rep. Marvin Couch, to discuss the development of State Road 434. Now how in the world could a workshop go out on the 6th when this letter didn't even come before this Carmission and didn't even get it until the 9th. . Mayor Bush said the he thinks he can explain that, Carmissioner Gennell of course would be the one probably to do this but - I believe that it is my understanding that she actually did speak with Mr. Couch about this, I didn't, I wasn't aware of it at the time either that she mentioned it to me. I called, I believe Mr. Govoruhk and maybe the City Attorney, and said you know, can we do this, I mean you know it's not the way I understood it to be and I was told yes you can't really deny a member of the House of Representatives from wanting to speak if they do, so on their advise I went ahead and put it on there. Carmissioner Ferring asked if she called you. Mayor Bush stated no, I know Ms. Gennell made the comment to me, I don't know if she called me or just said it to me, she said that she talked to Marvin Couch and he wants to come and speak and at that point that is when I contacted Mr. Govoruhk or the Attorney, I don't remember which one, and just said is this something that can be done, yes I guess it's before we got the letter, but I don't know how many conversations she has had with Marvin Couch and at that point I just say can she.....Carmissioner Ferring said how many conversations has she had with you.....Attorney Kruppenbacher said with all respect to each one of you none of you have had conversations with each other regarding anything on Commission business, and Mr. Ferring I think you . Special Meeting City Conmission May 16, 1994 Page 14 93-94-16 . appreciate what I just said. Conmissioner Ferring said he does and he is sorry, I 'm just trying to get to, you know why we had to defend ourselves before the media and the public. Attorney Kruppenbacher said I appreciate your questioning.....Conmissioner Ferring said that he wants the public that is here how much work everyone of us has done regarding what is going on in this City and we have not shirked our duties and we work long and hard trying to do the best we can for the people of Winter Springs. It's not always gravy and we get a lot of criticism for it, if we take a position we are accused of picking on people especially people that have their own priorities on what should be addressed first. I want to go on further because in respect to the corridor I did through proper procedures request from you Mr. Mayor at a reading that we set up a meeting with the Department of Transportation by the way it was a very interesting meeting; and find out from DOT just what their plans were so that our Planners could get a better idea on what they have to vision and what they have to deal with over the next couple of years, that meeting took approximately four or five weeks before it came about; we have other priorities in this City also, we have the widening of Tuscawilla Road which we have been working tremendously hard on to try and offset what the County is trying to do to the City of Winter Springs, a lot of time and effort has gone into that also so there are other priorities in this City now how you classify priorities as to what gets first and what gets second I don't know, but I would just like to let the people know exactly what this Conmission is doing, we are not just sitting with our hands on our butt, we are trying to tackle every issue that we think is the bread and butter issues at this particular point and if I sound like I'm on a soap box maybe I am. I have never been accused of bedside manner and I'm sorry for that and I apologize for it, but I speak from the heart and I speak the truth, you may not like the way I say it but I tell the truth, I don't lie, I don't steal. ..... Conmissioner in this City and to be criticized when I'm not here I think is uncalled for. . Mayor Bush said Mr. Ferring I would like to say that I in no way criticized you or the other Conmissioners for not being here and that's all there is to that - I didn't and I tried to make that perfectly clear. The other thing is I think to take the feeling if one's not here you somehow avoiding responsibilities is also totally inaccurate, I missed a meeting and I missed it because I was out of town, it wasn't because I didn't want to be here that night, I don't know what business really got transacted that maybe wasn't sensitive business evidently it wasn't because someone might has accused me of the same thing. Not being here is something that we are all going to have to do at sometime or another just as Conmissioners McLeod and Gennell aren't here today, they are not here because of the agenda, they are not here because they are out of town. Anyway I don't see that they are skipping out on their responsibilities either, and how the media interpret events, you know we have absolutely no control over and so I agree with you in what you said, and certainly hope we can avoid these kind of things in . Special Meeting City Ca'rrnission May 16, 1994 Page 15 93-94-16 the future. Again, going back on this meeting, Ca'rrnissioner Gennell you know as we were made aware was going to be out of town for quite some time...Ca'rrnissioner Ferring said you may have been aware, we weren't..Mayor Bush said she had informed at least the City Clerk any way, and therefore this issue she felt was something that needed to be address, it's pretty easy for me to see at this point that this was a situation where it was going to be difficult to get the meeting called, maybe within the time frame that the certain Ca'rrnissioner might want itj had the situation been reversed I would have acted exactly the same way because I think it's important that each Ca'rrnissioner and/or sub-set of Ca'rrnissioners have the ability and have the opportunity to explore those things that maybe they are more interested in then maybe some other topic, I'm not saying what their priorities are cause I don't personally know but I don't think that any of us would disagree that we knew just from the comments made at Ca'rrnission meetings that this was something very important to that particular Ca'rrnissioner because it had been brought up at two separate times and had failed to get consensus at that point so anyway.. . Ca'rrnissioner Langellotti said that he just wants to go on record I was not accusing you, Mr. Mayor of passing those remarks. Mayor Bush said ok. Ca'rrnissioner Torcaso stated that on Monday night, the meeting we had Monday night, May 9th, I made a statement to the City Clerk that I would not be available for the Wednesday, I don't know if anybody else heard it or not but I was out of town too at that time. What did bother me what I heard the following day that there was a meeting held with all these people here and there was no quorum, I understand you can't hold a regular meeting without a quorum and I understand the City Attorney stopped in and let you go ahead and hold the meeting, I don't understand that. . Mayor Bush said that was the first item we did and Mr. Kruppenbacher you want to restate what you...Attorney Kruppenbacher said to commissioner Torcaso that he is correct about that you cannot hold a public meeting, meaning a meeting of a body where you could act, that day Mary or John, I forget which one advised me that they did not think a quorum would be present I conferred with Chip Morrison, general counsel of the League, he and I talked through the issue and we both independently and both together on the phone interpreted it and believe the Sunshine Law provided that two Ca'rrnissioners could sit and talk with everybody, and I advised John Govoruhk this too, but they could not hold a meeting, and that's why I came here and advised that and left, so there was no contrary to what the press may have reported, there was no official meeting of the City of Winter Springs, there were, I don't know how many 2 or 3 Ca'rrnissioners....Ca'rrnissioner Torcaso stated you left so you really don't know what happened...Attorney Kruppenbacher said that's correct I left with the advise that they could not have a meeting in terms of an official meeting of the City and that's the last I understand....Ca'rrnissioner Torcaso said that he understands that the . Special Meeting City CaTrnission May 16, 1994 Page 16 93-94-16 meeting lasted 4 or 5 hours. I've been Mayor a couple of times too and I've had the same problems as Mr. Bush is learning, when I had any special meetings or any thing else the subject was always let known to the CaTrnissioners with their advise, whether they wanted to listen to that subject or not; if it was a controversial subject where at least three CaTrnissioners didn't want to listen to it or anything else, it was thrown out, there was no special meeting called for that particular reason, why kill a dead horse you know, but I couldn't understand this 4 or 5 hour meeting with no quorum. . Mayor Bush stated CaTrnissioner Torcaso again, we clarified it with the City Attorney to make sure we weren't in violation of the Sunshine Law, or any other laws or Charters or so forth and so on, and based on his advise we went ahead and proceeded because we knew in enough time to say well if there isn't one you know maybe we just ought to close the doors and go home. The other thing is again I'd like to say this cause it is the absolute truth, if anyone of you three would have called me and said I can't make it can we reschedule, I would have done my level best to if we could have got it in that week, the last week at same time to have done it; the time and the day were irrelevant as far as I was concerned, as far as I know everybody else too.....CaTrnissioner Ferring said excuse me Mr. Mayor but I did call back and I advised the City Clerk that I could not attend that meeting; I didn't have to call you because the City Clerk was the one that notified me of the meeting, I'm sure that you were subsequently notified that I couldn't make the meeting, were you not notified that I could not make the meeting? Mayor Bush said that he doesn't recall on what Mary told me on who and who wasn't going to be there she was in question...CaTrnissioner Ferring said did the City Manager or City Attorney advise you...Mayor Bush said no, I don't want to Mary on the spot either because you know there was same question whether or not there were going to be three CaTrnissioners there....CaTrnissioner Ferring said again I'm not looking to find fault with you Mr. Mayor, I'm really not....Mayor Bush said again and I said this the other day you know..CaTrnissioner Ferring said and I would appreciate...Mayor Bush said let me finish here, as I mentioned at the meeting on Wednesday that the fact that it was, and even the newspaper had this, it was a hastily called meeting and you know if I could go back and do this again I would ask when the Clerk called that she said if that date is not ok is there an alternate date because obviously it caused more problem with not being there than being there and so the intent is not to cause more problems but of course to solve problems unfortunately the fact that it was interpreted in a certain way by even same CaTrnissioners or the news media, that's the bad thing and I agree with the statement that you made here this afternoon and feel that I have somehow contributed to this and I certainly want to apologize. So again I apologize to the three CaTrnissioners because in no way did I intend to put you on the spot and like I say if I could do it over again I would do it differently and this City will only operate if the CaTrnission works together on things and of course that's what we really are trying to do, I . . Special Meeting City Camlission May 16, 1994 Page 17 93-94-16 . know we are all concerned about these issues and I want us to get by them, I'm going to quit contributing to the problems as much as I can with these kind of things as well and again I apologize to you three because I know you took some heat for it and I know it was not justified but the perception of things are sometimes reality and we just have to live with that but again I will say this I did make the statement twice at the meeting in defense of your absence, I took the blame for calling the meeting hastily and at that point I guess that's all the apologizing I can do, I can't do any more and I'm not asking you to accept it or anything like that it's just that it's something that I'll not do again without talking to you, I still may want to call a special meeting and what constitutes and emergency I think is in the eyes of the beholder but anyway maybe we'll have a way to...Frank I need to ask you a question, can I call them and ask them if they can make a meeting or does that have to go through the City Clerk or the City Manager? Attorney Kruppenbacher said the City Clerk needs to call not you. Mayor Bush said if this happens again if you would be so kind to say I can't make it then, can we have some alternate dates and give the Clerk some alternate dates and then we'll let her to try to work out a time we can make it or at least three can make it because I don't want to call a meeting where two people show up...Camlissioner Ferring said or when three people show up..Mayor Bush said we can live with three if we have to, but I mean two or less is not acceptable at all. . Commissioner Torcaso said he was one of the main supporters of John Bush for Mayor of this City..Commissioner Ferring said so was I ..Camlissioner Torcaso went on to say this who board was really, and I think John Bush is going to be a great Mayor, I think he is a good Mayor at the present time, he's just like the rest of us got to learn little by little, but his intentions, his ability there's no doubt in my mind he is going to be great and I appreciate having him...Commissioner Ferring stated as do I, but I think a meeting of this kind was important because I think it brought out in the open what certain provisions in the Charter call for and there are a few other items that I put on my agenda that I asked for... Mayor Bush said let me say this Commissioner Ferring, I appreciate you doing this because there is one thing I like to do is I like to face things head on and I appreciate you calling the meeting because I knew why and I thought this is better that it be done eye ball to eye ball in public then you hear someone who talks to someone who talks to someone else and it comes through a hundred different way than what it did so I appreciate you doing this and you know I can take it when I've been told that I did something wrong, it's not a problem for me and I hopefully I won't do it again, my Dad taught me that a long time ago, and I'll certainly try to do that and again I apologize to the three of you because I know that you were possibly personally embarrassed by this and it was unfair and again it was something I could have avoided by handling it differently, again I think the meeting was good I'm sorry if we put Bruce and Carlon the spot, I guess if we had more time you might had screwed it up but you did a good job and I know that you will have the opportunity to . Special Meeting City Carrnisson May 16, 1994 Page 18 93-94-16 share that with the full Carrnission at another time when they can take action because I think what you are doing does require Carrnission attention. So on that.. . Carrnissioner Langellotti said that he-wouldn't want to repeat what's already been said...Carrnissioner Ferring said and myself also, I think that you and I have had a good working relationship through the time we've known each other and the only way we can get this discussion, so we weren't accused of violating Sunshine is to bring it out into the open and I think more important and I'm really not looking for you to apologize, I don't think it is necessary for you to apologize and I'm not looking for an apology what I think is more important is the way we go about the business in this City. I think this is the main thing, I think that nobody no individual Carrnissioner has got a right to go up and dictate to any of our Staff or even to ask any of our Staff to pursue things that don't came through this Carrnission as a body and again I want to reiterate there's not one member of this Carrnission including Carrnissioner McLeod and even Carrnissioner Gennell that doesn't have the interest of this City at heart but it's the way we go about it and the way we address ourselves which is important in my mind that it doesn't look like we are not cooperating with each other. I think the Staff has to be aware and I think if the City Manager sets his policy I will adhere to it and I hope that everybody else adheres to it too and again I'm not looking for an apology from you Mr. Mayor, I'm really not. . Mayor Bush said that he appreciates that and I'm glad it's been out...Carrnissioner Ferring said all he wants to do is get these things out in the open so that we can proceed with the business that is really important and that's getting Winter Springs a little bit ahead of itself in growth and everything else that's good for this City. There were a couple of other issues that I'd like to deal with number one Frank since we've gone out of the regular order of the agenda can we put up a Resolution regarding what the policies are, can you put together what I think we've been discussion here today and to define in same way and manner what we have to live with? Attorney Kruppenbacher said at risk of having my head chopped off for writing it wrong, I'll put it together and get you all a copy and if you would rather than if you would just each give me a call and tell what you think, I won't communicate what each one of you think to one another obviously, but if you'd let me know your thoughts on the draft and then we'll get one back in final. Carrnissioner Ferring said only one....Carrnissioner Torcaso said remember what form of government we have. Carrnissioner Ferring said his other request is that there seems to be same dissension regarding how this Carrnission treats the volunteer Boards, and I'm personally at a loss I don't know what's going on as far as what the responsibilities of the Boards are and how they are to address this Carrnission and how the Carrnission is suppose to respond; we had a workshop and I thought we pretty much discussed it. I know it's unfair of me to hit you with this and tell us what the Boards are suppose to do, could you look . Special Meeting City Ca11nission May 16, 1994 Page 19 93-94-16 . into this...Attorney Kruppenbacher said he will when he is working on the Reso1ution...Ca11nissioner Ferring said and we will just bypass it completely and let it go and put up same kind of infonmation that how we are suppose to deal with Boards because we seem to be catching heat and I don't know why, I mean we have Boards that are suppose to be assigned certain specific missions and when those missions are done we're suppose to go through the normal channels; through the planners, the City Manager and when the planners feel that these Boards need input, the planners are suppose to go to the City Manager and request the City Manager whatever their needs are. Unfortunately I got a couple of the minutes here fram one of these meetings and it seems that one of the Boards table items until we had a joint meeting with them on the planners recommendations, that is more or less like the tail wagging the dog. I think we are only too happy meeting with the Boards when everything is put down and I think Bruce and Carl we have same tremendous Boards in this City, we have a planning and Zoning Board, Commerce & Industry Board and a Beautification of Winter Springs Board which makes up a nucleus of about 10-17 people and I would expect all of these 17 people will be giving you insight and thoughts on what they feel is the division of this City, I mean I can tell you and I'll tell you now what my vision is and I'm not a planner, my vision is to have a corridor that is perfectly buffered and landscaped proper setbacks, a perfect median in the middle and that all the developers that want to develop along this corridor will meet the most stringent design standards that we can put up. I don't have the expertise to know how to propose that in writing and that's why I'm hoping you're able to do that for us; I understand that you did give a good presentation and hopefully we can have it again or I'll read it the minutes when I get a copy of the minutes, but again, I think it's important that these Boards work through the proper channels and that they don't came and say well we're the guys that are starting, you know that are not listening to them, I don't think that's fair for us. I think that that's what we have you there for to help get their ideas, filter them and put them into whatever effect whatever effect you think is value to you and if it's necessary and we want to have more input fram the rest of the public then we can have the same thing that the P&Z Board did before, invite the public, invite the residents to give input and once again and like we did originally, and that's not a hard thing to do, I think if you check with the City Manager if that's what is necessary and the P&Z Board wants to do that in conjunction with the other Boards so they can hear it, by all means I think we should do it. But we are as much concerned as any other individual, and I'm not going to speak for people that are not here, but I know that I put a lot of time and a lot of hours working on the Comprehensive Plan and working on the Land Development Regulations of this City. It's not just the last several months that I've looking for this thing to happen, it's been the last several years and I think a lot of these people up here are in the same boat that I'm in, it's not that we don't want to have these things but we want to make sure what we do have is not pushed prematurely and hopefully that's the way we can go with it, so if you please . . . . . , Special Meeting City Commission May 16, 1994 Page 20 93-94-16 Frank and that's all I've got to say. Mayor Bush said that I think on Commissioner Ferring's comments there about the Boards, just my observation has been is that the Boards have been certainly willing without a question, but they are kind of searching for a direction and I think sametimes they don't know who to get it from, I think they want to turn to the Commission and I think that we should ask the City Manager to maybe more aggressive in this way in working with these Boards to deflect same of this coming to the Commission before it's gone through Staff and I think that I don't know whether, I know that many of you served on these Boards and these are your friends and you've been there yourself and so maybe they have a tendency to think they want to came to you rather than going through the Manager, but if I read you correctly Commissioner what you're saying is that you would like to see Staff became more active with the Boards and so I think...Commissioner Ferring said absolutely they should be.. Mayor Bush said that I think that Mr. Govoruhk should be the one who shoulders that responsibility and takes it to the Boards with the Commission approva 1 . Commissioner Ferring said to the City Manager if that was a problem in his mind regarding getting the Boards involved with the Staff that you have regarding the vision and growth the corridor. Manager Govoruhk said he is going to put it this way - I'm being put in the middle again, but looking at it Frank, Commissioners, Mayor, I'm going to jump into it with both feet and I say a lot of this here is my fault because as you know I didn't have the help and I went in too many different directions now I'm going to pull myself back to go in one direction where I should have been going many months ago and I will take that task on and make sure, being that you are directing me the Commissioners, to do that and I will do that. Mayor Bush said that he thinks it would be good if Mr. Govoruhk were to maybe write the Chair's of the Boards indicating,- do we need to vote on this or just a consensus of the Commission, does anybody disagree..There were no disagreements from the Commissioners present. Mayor Bush said that you would write them a letter John and just put in what the Commission is saying here, and then they will know what's next for them. Commissioner Ferring asked if we need a motion on that Frank. Attorney Kruppenbacher said no. Attorney Kruppenbacher stated that he would simply advise the Manager that if he had that letter drafted and ready for Monday night when the full Commission is here or at least Mr. McLeod also, he could run the letter by you before he sent it to the Boards so that it properly reflected what each of you thought is what you are saying today, and I think that would avoid any confusion. . Special Meeting City Commission May 16, 1994 Page 21 93-94-16 Mayor Bush said one thing he would like to bring up just on a side issue completely, there is a letter that's getting ready to be sent out concerning the Anniversary Celebration and Ms. Norton found an error in it in terms of the times she has corrected that and I have asked that the Commission receive a copy of that before we sent it and if you would just look at this and don't see any problems just let the Deputy Clerk know and we will get it out, this was a letter originally that had Commissioner Gennell's signature on it as well as mine, but since she is not here she can't sign it so we took her name off it but it does need to go, the original letter had a problem, I think the time was wrong. We checked with Mr. Baker who confirmed yes it was an error so that's been corrected in this letter. If you would look at that at your leisure and give it back to the Deputy Clerk before you leave today and the Deputy Clerk will let me know to came in and sign them. . Mayor Bush asked if there was anything else from the Commissioners. Commissioner Ferring said no and he thanks the Mayor for being as patience as he was with him and again I say I've never been accused of having the best bed side manner. Mayor Bush said John there is no other way I'd rather spend two hours of ~ vacation, I do think that some of the points that you brought up are really good about working through the City Manager and I know where I work in a large institution that has a lot of bosses in different areas and I supervise a lot of people and one thing I have to admit really upsets me is when someone goes around me to talk to one of people that 1 supervise and I don't know about it and I think it is just courtesy not that I ever tell them not to cause I would think that would be foolish and 1 think Mr. Govoruhk would either but I think he should have that courtesy at all times to say yes or no on that because he might be able to answer the question right up front without bothering Staff which I think is another thing but I think that is a good idea it does need to be brought to everyone's attention. Commissioner Langellotti said that he would like to put a little heat on the Attorney I think Frank that when the new Commissioners came on board you should have sat down with them and told them just what their duties were. Attorney Kruppenbacher said Commissioner Langellotti as I did with you when you came on board - I did do that. Commissioner Langellotti said oh did you, well I guess they didn't follow your advise is that it. Mayor Bush said in defense of the - that's true we did have that but however it seems like until you hit a real life situation maybe the lesson isn't learned as well. . Attorney Kruppenbacher said we have one side issue about Monday night- Manager Govoruhk stated that Mayor you mentioned it and looking at it I would like to have the regular meeting scheduled at 5:00 instead of 7:30. The reason for that is we have the Union thing, we have the Duda, we have the High School Plans to meet with P & Z and the Commission, Glen Eagle Stonmwater - and Frank I hope you are ready for that one with Staff, the . Special Meeting City Calmission May 16, 1994 Page 22 93-94-16 . YMCA right now we have been back and forth and I don't know if that will be ready or not, architect Mr. McLeod is not here so he's going to have to answer it if that's going to be on the agenda, and the annual ceritifcation of the Zoning Map so we are going to have a full agenda. Mayor Bush asked the Manager if he can adjust the agenda so that those issues that we all know the public are going to be interested in come later in the meeting if we do start earlier, so that some of these "routine" things can be.....Attorney Kruppenbacher said that he needs the Calmission and Mayor from if you start at 5:00 from 5:00 to 5:30 if you start 5:30 then from 5:30 to 6:00 in a closed executive session for 30 minutes to review the union contract which you will be acting that night, you need to predate the meeting by 30 minutes just to go through the contract that we've already talked about. Mayor Bush said that at 5:00 we will meet in executive session and at 5:30 the regular Calmission meeting and Mr. Govoruhk will you make up the agenda to what you think from the least interest to the most interest of the public and run it by the Calmissioners for their, you know take a look at it also, it doesn't matter to me but I think there are people who want to be here. Attorney Kruppenbacher said just for the record - to benefit, the law provides that you as a public body have a limited opportunity to meet in private without anybody present for only two purposes one is being if you were being sued in a law suit you could meet in private to discuss the law suit and the defense and there are total procedures you have to follow if you do that; the other time which you've done in the past is that you may meet in private to discuss collective bargaining within a union and you'll be meeting Monday to discuss the Police contract that we've been in negotiations which is on the agenda for that night. Mayor Bush said one other thing just for a point of clarification and I'm surprised we didn't get some audience participation here - in a special meeting such as we are having now is there a provision for input from the public. Attorney Kruppenbacher said that public has the right in my opinion Mayor to have input on the items that are on the agenda in a special meeting, in a workshop you would not entertain any public input, but if you are not taking any action, you could adjourn this meeting and take the position that you would take input at a meeting when you going to take action, if you wanted to do that. Mayor Bush asked the Calmission how they felt about that. Calmissioner Ferring said that is fine that he has no problem with that. Calmissioner Langellotti and Torcaso both agreed. Mayor Bush asked if there were any comments from the public. . Moti Khemloni, Tuscawilla Homeowners Association, stated that he would like to make sure that the issue regarding the Duda connector is going to be discussed after 7:30 and not before 7:30 because we have an expectation out there in the community that the subject is going to be brought up next Monday night and the normal times that have been advertised in the past are 7:30 so....Mayor Bush said that he was hoping that Mr Govoruhk would obviously I knew that would be one of the more popular public issues, and so he'll - it's pretty hard to guess how long things are going to take but I . Special Meeting City Commission May 16, 1994 Page 23 93-94-16 can't imagine it would come up before 7:30. Manager Govoruhk said that is one of the things he was going to say if you limit each one of these items 15-20 minutes we could start at 7:30 and get through it by 11:00. Mayor Bush said I don't think we could do that. Manager Govoruhk said no sir, that is the reason I asked to move it back to at least 5:00 and now we're back to 5:30. Mayor Bush said the only thing I would think would be to put it last on the agenda, if it's last it's last, that's the best we can do because if things go quicker then we expect I can't promise you a time, but I think that's all we could do. Mr. Govoruhk will make up the agenda of the items that we have and maybe John what you could do is kind of put some time estimates on there and run it by the Commissioners who are in town and get some consensus from them and I think that's the only way we can handle it. . Paul Partyka, 684 Oswego Court, stated that he has gone away for three weeks to Ireland and came back and a lot of things have happened and it's kind of exciting. Let me make a couple of points, first of all from John Bush's standpoint I think what he did was appropriate, admittedly like any kind of meetings that you call sometimes you get the right timing sometimes you don't and perceptions I think are terrible sometimes. In which then brings me to the second point John, you know I was Commissioner in that hot seat too and the fact of the matter is when you are in any leadership political arena or even non-political arena in that leadership role you can't please everybody and that just comes with the territory, so I mean we've all been subjected to harassment, the calls, bad calls saying that you're and idiot etc. etc., sometimes we are, but the fact of the matter is that comes with the territory so it's really too bad that you have to get into these kind of meetings and in some cases waste a couple of hours of everybody's time to get to this, but maybe it's worth while to do this every so often but always understand that comes with the territory. So whether you say you are truthful, honest or whatever, half of these people probably don't believe you anyway so you just have to go on with the show and do the best you can. I think we all assume you are trying to do the best you can but you just have to live with the politics of it so again what I think what Mr. Bush did here was good and I think we need more of those kind of meetings in fact, and interesting enough the County Commission kind of solves the problem a little bit by having their meetings all day, so in case some people can make it, maybe some Commissioners can't make it you got a chance to do that a number of times. So an issue like this vision issue which I think is very very important is going to be discussed a lot of times I think the key to that is to bring out to the open to the public a number of times for everybody's understanding. . (At this point in the meeting a lady spoke from the audience and didn't give her name and her question did not get picked up by the recorder.) Mayor Bush answered her and said I think this would be the sensible way to think about it, Mr. Govoruhk is the City Manager everything should go through him, what the Commission here is saying is that if you have a question of anyone of the City employees that you should talk to Mr. Govoruhk first he may in fact say to talk to that person but you owe him the courtesy to speak to him . Special Meeting City Commission May 16, 1994 Page 24 93-94-16 first about it because he might be able to answer the question without you talking to them and pulling them out of the field because a lot of these people are out working not sitting in an office, and that is what I interpret the Commission to mean there and I certainly agree with that. Gladys Zahand, 636 Murphy Road, stated that she came here to thank you for bringing up the issue about the BOWS Board and working with the other Boards we have felt in the past that we lacked a sense of direction and I think we need to work and to know what's happening in the Planning Board and the other Boards that we will work with so that we can work together and I just wanted to say thank you for remembering us. . Wes Burnhardt, 1822 Seneca Blvd., stated he just wanted to say for a point of clarification, he attended the meeting last Wednesday and I think you are correct the presentations were excellent and I'm a little bit confused as to what harm do you feel the meeting caused the residents of Winter Springs, I found it particularly interesting and by the way just for a point of clarification the meeting started a little bit after 5:00 and ended at 6:55 so but the impression....Commissioner Ferring said are you asking me what harm it was, I didn't think it was any harm at all I have no problem with having as many meeting with the residents as they want in fact I advocate that but we are not discussing the meeting itself don't make no mistake, the meeting itself went very well, I was given to understand that the planner and the Assistant to the City Manager gave a wonderful presentation. That's not the point the point of the matter is how do you set up meetings and what is this Commission here, you know we operate by rules and laws and if you did something in your job, your private profession, and there was rules and laws laid down you have to abide by them. Burnhardt said that he agrees with that but nothing was violated as I understand...Commissioner Ferring said sure there was... Burnhardt said what was violated, the Attorney was here he came in and said there was no quorum but you could have an exchange of ideas if you would like to . Mayor Bush said that he doesn't think that any of the Commissioners here are saying that the meeting itself was bad, I don't think that was it at all. Burnhardt stated he doesn't think that anything was violated if the Attorney said that there was not a quorum that you can't take a vote that you can't have an official meeting but if you would like an exchange of ideas proceed and that is exactly what happened. . Commissioner Ferring said Mr. Burnhardt I just went through a whole litany of things in the City Charter that spell out procedures on what this City and this Commission is suppose to abide by there is no problem with meetings, please don't misunderstand that, I'll go to a meeting every day of the week if you want, if this is what the residents want, I have never shirked from any resident that want's my time you got it, but all 1'm saying is we've got to do it according to the way standards should be set, if you want to meet with me or anybody in this place l'd be happy to meet with you . . . Special Meeting City CcmTlission May 16, 1994 Page 25 93-94-16 I've never, I mean no hanm as far as the meeting was concerned what we are talking about is protocol and rules and the City Charter and getting these things together so we can have a Resolution so we all understand, there are new people on this commission and again I have said and I've made it a point to say that I know the Mayor did not do anything premeditated but it's something that we have to do as CcmTlissioners so we all understand each other but it has nothing to do with the general public because we welcome the general public and I wish you would come every meeting and give your input I really do. Mayor Bush said I think it was the interpretation of the way it was interpreted by different people and the way the Charter reads and obviously it did cause some problems. Burnhardt said he was getting ready to leave when the Attorney said there was no quorum, but then there was the However, and with the however you could have an exchange of ideas if you like it's not an official meeting. Mayor Bush said that was made clear but again that isn't the point that CcmTlissioner Ferring or CcmTlissioner Torcaso is making. So anyway hopefully we can put this behind us and we'll handle it differently again because it was a very productive meeting and I hope we will have more in the future I am sure the other CcmTlissioners will be there I 'm sure they would have been there at this one had they been given more time or we could have had it on a different day. Burnhardt said that he came here just for information and found it very interesting last Wednesday and today, but I too agree with CcmTlissioner Ferring that no apology is necessary. Mayor Bush said if the CcmTlission voted 5-0 on everything you'd accuse them of the Sunshine violation right. The meeting was adjourned at 3:42 p.m. Respectfully Submitted, Approved: '~.~ Margo Hopkins Deputy City Clerk 7-:~ Bush, Mayor